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thequing
2
Sep 13, 2018
these would have been better designed like the philips fidelio x2. these would be better as open cans imo but philips somehow managed to have more of a bass presence than any open cans (i don't like closed ones--tried the closed version of the audio technica 700 series many moons ago and promptly returned my m50x) i've owned. too bad i broke mine beyond repair. i got the he-4xx and that was a poor replacement.
HaVoCTzu
274
Sep 13, 2018
thequingThese would be a lot better if they were truly over ear. They advertise as over ear but they are more on ear.
Eli35
653
Sep 13, 2018
thequingHE-4XX are gorgeous IMO, but they really need a decent (and quite powerful) amp to shine. Otherwise, they sound muddy and completely bass-less. If you don't have a dedicated amp, try one before tossing them into the drawer.
HaVoCTzu
274
Sep 13, 2018
Eli35Even with a HDV 820 the 4XX sounds muddy to me (Compared to other headphones). 4XX is a good deal though.
thequing
2
Sep 13, 2018
Eli35i'm not impressed using these with my usb dac/amp. mostly use these for pc gaming. they're too quiet otherwise (especially on my chromebook) and i have an lg v20. i wouldn't describe them as muddy. they sound more veiled than anything with a lackluster soundstage. there's just nothing special about them imo. they sound decent but not exceptional and i miss my fidelio x2s. i thought they were superior in every way except maybe build quality.
Eli35
653
Sep 13, 2018
thequingWow, my impressions are completely different from yours. Are you sure your usb dac/amp is providing enough juice for the HE-4XX? Because from my setup (Topping D30 DAC -> Little Dot I+ with upgraded tubes and opamp) they sound super vivid, a bit bright, much less veiled than HD6XX which I love too in a very different way (they have better tonal balance, more treble quantity, pleasant warmth and superb comfort compared to the Hifiman's).
For me, HE-4XX excel in speed and texture, they give a very realistic sound from most musical instruments: after hearing them most headphones sound kinda "artificial", like listening to a record compared to live listening. I have to agree with you, soundstage on them is nothing special, but they have just enough to not feel congested by any means. But velied? For me, they do not sound veiled in any way. It's true that high frequencies are a bit rolled off compared to other headphones, but mid-high frequencies have a small peak that compensates for that (and sometimes leads to small sibilances, but nothing crazy), and the higher frequencies roll off makes the listening fatigue completely disappear.
Eli35
653
Sep 13, 2018
HaVoCTzuThe HDV 820 has a quite high output impedance of ~40ohm, according to my readings, which is probably more than enough to screw the sound you get when using the HE-4XX. I suggest you try some other amp, because from my two amps (Hifime Sabre 9018 USB DAC/Amp and upgraded Little Dot I+) they sound much more vivid and clear than other over-ears I've tried (HD6XX, M50x, slightly modded T50RP MKII, HD668b...). Even a budget-ish Objective2 could noticeably improve your impression of the 4XX, let me know if you do notice any improvements, good luck!
HaVoCTzu
274
Sep 13, 2018
Eli35Also tried it on: Fostex HPA4-BL Asus Essense STX II Creative Soundblst ZxR GSX-1000 (and a Dark Voice) all have somewhat similar results
HaVoCTzu
274
Sep 13, 2018
HaVoCTzuIn it’s price range 4XX is great.
texindus
170
Sep 13, 2018
thequingInteresting how you say that as I consider these 1MOREs' to be the closest to a closed-back version of the X2s we'll get at a similar price range (X2 sale price is 180). I own all 3 headphones mentioned and can recommend all of them in a heartbeat. I've since reserved my X2's for gaming (Vmoda) and use my HE-4XX as my go-to (strings sound so incredible). Last thing I'd expect from an open planar is any semblance of bass (although the HE-4XX is pretty bassy compared to say my HE-560 and OPPO-PM3). Considering your only real plus for the X2 is the bass, calling the HE-4XX a poor replacement is a pretty solid 'well duh'.
MFHRaptor
5
Sep 14, 2018
texindusI'm intending to get the 1More Triple for Nintendo Switch gaming given they are portable, and I already own Fidelio X2. I'm only playing for fun and don't care about accuracy, so I would like to ask about how wide is the soundstage of the 1More for gaming.. also do you recon they can get loud enough on something as simple as the Switch?
texindus
170
Sep 14, 2018
MFHRaptorAt work otherwise I could just pop it in my switch and try it out for you. Current testimonies and my own experience has seen these headphones need a lot of juice, so at a glance might not be the most engaging experience. I'll let you know in 12 hours lol.
Marlowe
143
Sep 14, 2018
thequingI guess it depends on taste. I have the Fidelio X2 (though It's boxed now and I never listen to it) and the Hifiman 400i (very similar in sound to the 4XX, though not identical like the Sennheiser HD650 and 6XX). Yes, the Fidelio X2 has a lot of bass for an open headphone, a lot more than the 400i (or the Sennheiser HD700 and 6XX, which are my primary phones ATM). And while not a basshead, I'm a fan of bass. However, the 400i and the Sennheaisers are so superior to the Fidelio in every other way that they make it sound muddy and unlistenable for me.
thequing
2
Sep 14, 2018
texindusno, i said i thought the x2s sounded superior in every way. i use a schiit fulla usb dac/amp. it's more than adequate for me for pc gaming (i use IEMs for everything else). i'm not going to buy more expensive dac/amps for a pair of headphones that i don't care for... i'd rather just have a different pair of headphones... the problem is that i had a lot of expendable income when i first joined massdrop and the time limit creates an artificial sense of urgency. had i done more research before buying, i would have probably never bought them, but i had heard many good things about them prior, so i just took the leap...
one more thing: i absolutely do not like closed cans.
thequingDo you own the original Schiit Fulla, which has just a USB-in and headphone jack? It's on the very low-end of USB DAC/amps and will simply not drive the 4XX properly.
At the very least, I recommend that you EQ* your 4XX. Doing so will help to remove the 'veil' you are hearing. Any remaining haziness or lack of sound-stage is do to the Fulla's inadequacies - not the headphones.
Also, I suggest you purchase a FiiO Q1 mkII (the best DAC/amp under $100), and a 2.5mm balanced headphone cable compatible with the 4XX.
* Using a system-wide sound modification program called Equalizer APO and the frequency response graph (on the main page) as a reference, I created an EQ profile for the HE-4XX that lowers its mid-bass through the upper-mids. Activating this profile, removes the haze in the headphones' sound, creates a wider (perceived) sound-stage, and generally increases the transparency/realism of the sound.
Once installed, click on the green "+" and select 'Graphic Equalizer with variable bands'. Then copy-paste the following into the (pencil and paper) 'Edit text' bar:
GraphicEQ: 47 0; 50 -1; 53 -1.7; 57 -2.4; 62 -3; 67 -3.4; 73 -3.8; 80 -4; 120 -4; 500 -3; 1200 -2; 2000 -1
Using the columns on the right side of the window (or within 'Edit text'), the frequencies/levels can be adjusted to taste. To deactivate the profile, click on the white 'profile active' button, and it will turn black.
thequing
2
Sep 16, 2018
mattrisand just why will the fulla not drive the 4xx properly? it's very well regarded and the impedance of the 4xx is a mere 32 ohms, compared to hundreds from some beyers and senns. the fidelio x2 are also 32 ohms... i don't care if the fulla is on the low end of the price spectrum, you haven't said anything to prove its so-called inadequacy.
thequingWhen you say you are "not impressed using these with my usb dac/amp. mostly use these for pc gaming. they're too quiet otherwise (especially on my chromebook) and i have an lg v20. i wouldn't describe them as muddy. they sound more veiled than anything with a lackluster soundstage. there's just nothing special about them imo. they sound decent but not exceptional", shouldn't your 4XX sound the same across all platform since your using the Schiit Fulla - not your devices' headphone jacks?
I read that someone tested the Schiit Fulla and determined its real-world specs. At 30.5 Ohms, it outputs 1.52 Vrms, and only 75.7 mW rms. The 4xx have an impedance of 35 ohms, so the power output will be even less. This is simply not enough to get the 4XX to really sing. They need at least 200 mW.
Also the 4XX have a sensitivity of 93 dB. The Philips X2 is 100 dB. That 7 dB is a massive difference in volume.
Finding specs on the original Fulla is difficult, but I would bet that its THD and noise are relatively high, and channel separation is poor. The Fulla was only meant as a replacement (upgrade) from bottom-of -the-barrel sound coming from computer headphone jacks - not power full-size planar magnetic headphones even close to their full potential.
After direct comparison, I discovered that the FiiO Q1 mkII is substantially better-sounding than Micca Origen+. The FiiO unit had a clearer overall sound and wider sound-stage. And this was from its standard 3.5mm jack. The 2.5 balanced is more powerful and channel separation is a bit better.
Conclusion: The DAC/amp matters, and you absolutely must upgrade yours to enjoy the 4XX. In the meantime, try my EQ suggestion.
thequing
2
Sep 16, 2018
mattrisno, i never said i was using the fulla on all my devices. i clearly said i use the usb dac/amp for pc gaming. i plugged the 4xx directly into the other sources, so naturally, i got a different sound. my phone actually drove them better than my chromebook and my desktop without the fulla.
32 ohms is 32 ohms. the x2 sounded amazing right out the box powered through my lg v20 and ps4 controller and absolutely floored me when connected to the fulla. the 4xx sounded good but not great, and the fulla did not improve the sound quality much, mostly the volume. could it be that i just don't prefer the sound signature for its uses? is one entry-level audiophile headphone in the same price range empirically better than another? you cannot find much data on the fulla, doesn't mean that it's a substandard device.
please explain what makes the 32 ohm 4xx so power hungry.
jaydunndiddit
3262
Sep 16, 2018
thequingTheir sensitivity rating: 93 dB/mW. That's not very high and will require a more powerful amp to get the best out of those drivers. Also, being planars, they are typically more current hungry than dynamic headphones. Their tested impedance is also higher than what is stated here at 49 ohms: https://www.innerfidelity.com/images/MassdropHiFiMANHE4XX.pdf.
Add it all up and you have a power hungry headphone.
thequing
2
Sep 16, 2018
jaydunndidditah, actual empirical data, thank you! i will see if they tested the x2.
thequingThey did: https://www.innerfidelity.com/images/PhilipsFidelioX2.pdf
Innerfidelity's reports that the X2 takes just 0.089 Volts and 0.23 mW to reach 90dB. The 4XX takes 0.271 Volts and 1.51 mW. This massive difference would explain the volume and poor sound issues.
And as jaydunndiddit (and I) pointed out the 4XX has a higher impedance and sensitivity.
"is one entry-level audiophile headphone in the same price range empirically better than another?" Yes, as far as accurate sound reproduction goes, the 4XX is superior in every way. I must admit, I prefer the X2's build, though.
I understand you wanted empirical data. But if you understand these numbers enough to explain/confirm the issues you were experiencing, you probably should have just done the research yourself... rather than expecting a discontinued, substandard USB-powered single-ended DAC/amp to properly drive full-size planar magnetic headphones... or expected others to do the research yourself.
You simply NEED to get a better DAC/amp to get your 4XX sounding anywhere close to their potential. The FiiO Q1 mkII with a 4XX-compatible balanced cable would be the cheapest option to do so.
TheDisruptor
25
Sep 16, 2018
mattrisProps to yourself and the other community members who sat here for hours to explain to OP what the very basic power specs of their amp and headphones are. As soon as OP started arguing with those who were trying to help, I'd have abandoned the cause.
thequing
2
Sep 16, 2018
TheDisruptorgood thing no one asked for your input. i wasn't arguing, i was asking questions. but i balk at the elitism in this community. what you haven't isn't good enough. you need to spend even more money even though you and YOUR ears could have made a correct assessment about what YOU want out of a headphone. and i suppose it's my fault that massdrop posts incorrect information about their products on their drops. right. i'm glad you did me the service of not engaging with me. furthermore, no one actually proved that my dac/amp was insufficient. the timeline for these headphones is all within the same period so my fulla being discontinued is a moot point. lastly, no one was sitting for hours trying to explain basic anything. you're exactly the reason i don't like engaging with certain people in this community. bye. 👋
thequing
2
Sep 16, 2018
mattrisi appreciate your feedback but it all hinges on:
"rather than expecting a discontinued, substandard USB-powered single-ended DAC/amp to properly drive full-size planar magnetic headphones..."
the original hifiman 4xx series, the x2, and the fulla were all produced within the same timeline, so the fulla being discontinued is a moot point. the massdrop 4xx were supposed to be even easier to drive, claiming you could use your cellphone! simply untrue. you keep dropping the word substandard based on...? something you MIGHT have read?
and i don't believe in a one fits all empirically better headphones unless you want a boring, sterile, neutral headphone (imo). the x2 were a much more enjoyable experience for me. let me live. but i will look into the fiio down the road.
i already said the 4xx was an impulse buy. i am sure i was down to the last few minutes (artifical urgency), my beloved x2 was broken, i had heard good things but admittedly did NOT do my own independent research, but i thought i could trust the information on this site in the product description. also i don't expect to buy a new DAC every time i get a new pair of headphones when the old one served me just fine.
another assumption that i don't see rooted into any other hobby is that everyone who participates has the same level of knowledge. i guess that's part of the elitism. 🙄
TheDisruptor
25
Sep 16, 2018
thequingOr you could have read the manufacturer specs sheet for the products you purchased and made reasonable approximations of their requirements and constraints? That's not elitism, that's called being an informed consumer and it's a practical necessity in audio with all of the snake oil that gets pushed around.
I'm skeptical you did any reading on your own because it was literally spelled out for you in this thread what the power output of the original Fulla is and why it won't be sufficient with not just the 4xx, but just about any planar magnetic headphone.
You are correct that sound is subjective to the listener, however, and I can respect that. I suggest you go and find another pair of Fidelio X2s if those sound best to you and work well with your equipment. The thing you shouldn't do is go around dissing other headphones because they aren't copying that design and attempting to speak with authority on things you clearly have no knowledge or understanding of.
thequing
2
Sep 16, 2018
TheDisruptoryou assume i did not do that.
one person said he read in one location about the fulla, which is vastly different from this specs on schiit's website. but go ahead and think i didn't do any research. 🙄
i didn't speak with any authority. i simply detailed my experience. but you have proven my point about the elitism once again with that last sentence you said. not only are you wrong on both accounts, but i never dissed the 4xx. i said i failed to be impressed but i thought they were a good headphone and that it was a possibility that they simply were not the cans for my preferred sound signature.
why are you even continuing to engage with me? you said you would have quit a long time ago and i already expressed a disinterest in talking to you, my rationale for which was made readily apparent in your first post talking shit about me in my own thread. lol
go fellate your ego about how much you know about audiophile equipment with someone else. you don't impress me in any way.
TheDisruptor
25
Sep 16, 2018
thequingWe'll have to agree to disagree on a number of points due to differing perceptions. Regardless, I concede I came off as rude and replied a bit hot-headedly. I apologize for that.
If you're interested in reading where the opposing specs with measurements for the original Fulla were posted (there are also references to others who have found similar results with the Fulla): https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.reddit.com/r/headphones/comments/6p3zfb/schiit_fulla_measurements/
Looks as though Schiit wronged many folks with the Fulla by using an out of nowhere reference point for THD (total harmonic distortion) on their original measurements and this is particularly problematic for low impedance gear (both the 4xx and X2 would fall here).
The X2s are likely less susceptible to the issue as they have a higher sensitivity (requiring less power to reach listenable volumes) and draw far less current from the amp. The 4xx is more likely to strain the amp section of the Fulla with its high current draw and lower sensitivity. For what it's worth, a different amp/DAC would likely improve your audio (at least objectively concerning the signal quality) across the board, but particularly with the 4xx.
thequing
2
Sep 16, 2018
TheDisruptorthank you. i have no bad blood with you. it was very commendable of you to apologize and i apologize as well for my comments toward you.
this is valuable information and a clear direction to see for myself what my next step should be in purchasing a new DAC. i suppose i should be future proofing. i just vastly prefer IEMs for everything but gaming, and am on the budget minded end due to the law of diminishing returns and having more expensive interests that could actually make me money.
anyway, with that said, i have probably only owned no more than 6-8 pairs of entry to lower mid audiophile-quality circumaural cans in my life as i much prefer an open sound even though i am a bit of a basshead, but clarity is important to me as well (these two seem to be at odds...i thought the x2 did a great job at handling both, as well as having a good soundstage). these are for home listening only, obviously, and usually just for gaming or audio projects i am working on at my desktop (or listening to music while on my desktop).
considering i do not need a desktop dac/amp and want something powered by usb, what would you suggest?
thequing
2
Sep 16, 2018
MarloweHypothetically much would you sell the pre-owned X2 for? 🤔
jaydunndiddit
3262
Sep 16, 2018
thequingiFi nano iDSD Black Label. It's an amp/DAC under $200, works with sensitive IEMs and can power pretty much any can upwards of 300 ohms. It'll even push my 4XX and 6XX with plenty of gusto and still keep it all hiss free with my CA Atlas and Shure 846.
It's battery powered but can go into desktop mode and bypass the battery so it doesn't kill its lifespan. There are a lot of other good perks but these are the biggies.
thequing
2
Sep 16, 2018
jaydunndidditthis does seem like an impressive unit, having a cursory look at it on amazon. however, i am looking to spend less than $200 and want something much smaller, like a USB dongle. do you know of anything that fits this profile and is capable of driving power hungry cans?
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