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TheFu
79
Feb 4, 2015
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RANT AHEAD: You will most certainly *NOT* NEED AN AMP or DAC/AMP for these headphones. And here is why – stay with me. (GAMERS, jump to the end for a bonus.)
"Lack of power will also distort the entire spectrum, but bass is the most noticeable -- it'll have less detail especially in the sub-bass area." This is simply NOT true.
Power equals volume. If your coils can be driven to swing "harder" with enough energy to be loud, there is also exactly as much energy available for "stopping" the coil again. No distortion, this is physically not possible / not separable from volume (=energy). The AKG K7XX only need 62 Ohms to reach their potential, about like the K701, K702 and K702 65 Anniversary edition. This is easy to drive, even with mobile equipment. (older AKG's like the 501 need more juice, this is probably where the myth originates).
Also, todays DACs are not a big issue anymore. The quality of your headphones is the most important aspect, and you just bought yourself a face-meltingly awesome product for the price. Period. If you do not get them LOUD enough, get an amp. THAT'S IT. Everything else is crapping audiophile bullshit all over people who just want to enjoy good sound.
By the way, i just read some real measurements from driving headphones with mobile equipment. The AMP/DAC combo in iOS devices is distortion-free (=dead neutral) and is indistinguishable from the $ 150 FiiO E17 (!!!), just quieter. I only trust measurements in this regard:
Frequency response (smoothed):
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Harmonic distortion (lower is better, the flagship FiiO E17 looks especially bad here):
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So, you can basically drive anything under 100 Ohms easily on most mobile devices, with full bass and definition etc., if you are not listening that loud. If you have an Android phone, check the output in Milliwatts. You should also mostly be fine if your DAC is not bottom-shelf. Trust your ears. If it is loud enough for you, you are also just fine quality-wise in 9 out of 10 cases. If you need 100% output volume, some clipping / distortion may occur, depending on your hardware. In this case consider amplifying.
If you only believe the Head-Fi Forums, stop. Just begin and look at the data. I think you will agree with me that the money and hassle of an external amp is NOT justified for most people.
GAMERS BONUS: a computer motherboard that has anything "Audio Boost"-ly (ASUS, MSI) will be just fine to drive even 600 Ohms perfectly. The K7XX are maybe the *best gaming headphones ever released* because of the wide soundstage and the decent bass – hard to do in an open design.
(tip: combine with Antlion ModMic for one of the best possible gaming headsets under 1000 dollars: https://massdrop-cf2.imgix.net/resizer/1500x1000/r/MD-4464_20141117205150_a4ba068c7458786b.jpg?fm=jpg&q=70
Only the Audeze LCD-3 will be significantly better, but they cost more than your PC). I personally am an AKG guy since the K501 (early 90s), but in gaming, soundstage is paramount to correctly locate 3D sounds, so these guys will objectively rock – even if you are more a fan of the Sennheiser / Beyerdynamic audio signature.
Also check the "Audio" section in your game preferences – chance to "Headphones" to get the best positional audio. You have two ears - you only need a good stereo headset like these for an immersive surround experience. Surround headphones are bullshit – binaural audio is all you need.
Feb 4, 2015
SuperBobKing
145
Feb 4, 2015
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TheFuThough I agree with the general point, I feel the need to point out that "need less than 70 ohms to drive" makes no sense at all electrically. I can't read it without cringing. The only reason I can think of that not using an amp would be lower quality if you can get loud enough is if the amp circuitry gets less accurate the closer it gets to its limits, but I couldn't find evidence for or against that in the brief search I did a couple days ago so I never said anything. Also it is COMPLETELY possible that there is something else going on that I am not thinking of. There is also the possibility of software increasing the volume of the recording, which would have a similar effect (at least on a decent recording) as resizing a picture to a larger resolution and cropping it back to the original. But that would depend on what software you are using, and I don't know the likely hood of it happening. If it does you will most likely hear some clipping. I know that in my Linux distribution I can push the volume to 130%, and at 100% it is quieter than windows 7 at 100%. Pushing it much past 100% results in clipping, but I have never tried going past the low 70%s in windows.
It is five in the morning here and I am typing on my phone so please excuse any mistakes.
Feb 4, 2015
TheFu
79
Feb 4, 2015
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SuperBobKingThanks for your reply. Can you explain what you mean by the "driveability" of the headset, how it does not make sense electrically? Or where do you see a difference here? Yes, if you drive a device at max level it could result in distortion / clipping, so having it running over 90% of the devices capability an amplifier should be considered. I give you that. As for something else going on, as long as a signal gets through an DAC / Amp "uncolored" there is absolutely nothing there you can change that it makes it "fuller", "warmer" or "more dynamic". These are audiophile myths that result from selective listening. Hearing is a very complex thing, your brain can deceive you easily. With that said, the quality on the recording / the sound signature of the headset itself are the most important factors in the experience by far (99+%); if you "re-live" your recording with an amplifier in between it may be the sound signature of the amp. The signal itself can NOT be expanded or give you a "tighter" experience with "more bass" etc.
Feb 4, 2015
Oktyabr
79
Feb 4, 2015
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TheFuThe ohms of a headphone aren't the only consideration. The sensitivity too plays a major role. The lower the sensitivity the more power an amplifier must have on tap to fulfill a given volume requirement. Many small amps used in cellphones, DAPs, motherboards, etc. may fall short in this department, depriving the combination of available headroom, which in turn leads to clipping and other forms of distortion as the amplifier is pressed to it's limitations.
While you may be correct in your assessment of damping factor (amp output impedance/headphone impedance), a poor match will also affect frequency response. It's standard procedure (especially in motherboards) for a lot of op-amp applications to use a resistor increasing the output impedance to help protect the amplifier which usually translates into a dampened frequency response, particularly in the bass region. While this is not at as critical in headphones as in the larger moving mass of full size speakers, it can still contribute a measurable (if not always audible) deficiency.
Feb 4, 2015
SuperBobKing
145
Feb 4, 2015
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TheFuOhms (the omega symbol for those who don't know) are basically a unit for the measure of resistance to current flow. Other than variations due to temperature of the conductor and the frequency of alternating current going through it the impedance is pretty much a constant. So saying that it takes a certain amount of resistance to current flow to provide enough current flow just doesn't make sense. What matters is the max voltage the amp can achieve, as well as the maximum power it can handle. The impedance does affect how much power goes to the headphones, but it isn't doing any driving. It is passive in the process. Saying that a pair of headphones require a certain amount of power to drive is fine.
Amps can distort the signal sent to them in order to do things like increase the volume of the bass, but such "improvements" are entirely subjunctive and IMO it is better to buy an accurate amp and just EQ. Amps CANNOT make the signal sent to them more accurate, or add details that are suposed to be there but are not in the signal that was sent to them. Unless you are using a DAC, if you use your headphones without an amp you are getting the same signal that would be sent to the amp. With an amp you are getting the distortion that is in the original signal amplified, plust the distortion of the amp itself. I am pretty sure that is what you were saying, I just figured I would clarify a bit.
Also, software volume controls reduce the detail of recordings. Digital recordings basically use a number to represent the amplitude of the sound at a specific time. The number of bits in a signal (24 bit for example) determines how many numbers are used to represent the amplitude. When volume control is done in software it has to scale down the numbers in the recording, so it is then using a smaller range of numbers to represent the signal. Unless you are dealing with a really small number of bits (is there a technical term?) you won't be able to notice it. But if you have the choice between hardware or software, go hardware. Also, when a software volume control increases the volume, it doesn't get more accurate because the number of bits goes up. Since the recording doesn't have those bits, the software has to just guess what they are. See the resizing a picture analogy above.
I mentioned those things, but in practice you are highly unlikely to hear any of it (other than maybe "coloring" of the sound depending on the severetiy, and clipping, which happens when the amplitude of the sound goes higher than what the number of bits can represent) unless you are using shitty equipment.
Feb 4, 2015
Feenoh
12
Feb 4, 2015
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TheFuGreat post man, so basically get an amp if you wan't the sound to be louder? Have you ever heard of the SupremeFX impact ii? It's a sound card that came with my Maximus VII Gene motherboard, wondering if that is even good for anything.
Feb 4, 2015
Zuka
3
Feb 4, 2015
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FeenohAn external DAC will generally give you better results than onboard sound.
However, with all things audio you'll get diminishing returns the more you spend. A lower to mid range Fiio is probably a good low cost choice for these cans, and they will probably improve the audio quality a bit over onboard. Ultimately there's only so much you can do to isolate the sensitive analog section of the sound card from all the noise your motherboard typically generates.
Feb 4, 2015
TheFu
79
Feb 5, 2015
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ZukaIn terms of "bang for the buck" perspective, an external DAC is a really poor investment.
My priority list:
1. Good Headphones. 2. Good Quality source. 3. External Amp (far behind 1 and 2, depending on how easy it is to drive). 4. External DAC (far behind 3).
I am not saying it is useless, it is just a poor investment.
Feb 5, 2015
TheFu
79
Feb 5, 2015
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SuperBobKingThanks everyone for your objective responses. I learned something today.
Feb 5, 2015
TheFu
79
Feb 5, 2015
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FeenohFeenoh, if you mean the small SupremeFX soundcard that comes with the board, use it. It provides Amplification. But your Motherboard should also be able to do it. If you can hear a difference, i am eager to know.
Feb 5, 2015
Feenoh
12
Feb 5, 2015
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TheFuYes that's what I'm talking about, I'll let you know
Feb 5, 2015
Zuka
3
Feb 5, 2015
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TheFuObviously everyone has their own preferences and priorities. I wasn't implying that a DAC was a cure-all, simply that in his particular setup, an entry level DAC/Amp combo would probably be the cheapest and more generally useful way to improve the audio quality from where he currently stands (In my opinion).
The user in question was asking about onboard audio specifically. PC integrated audio has to work inside an incredibly noisy environment (a PC's case) where it has to work around noise from the processor, GPU, power supply, and anything else that feels like spewing out noise. The jacks are also often placed right by a bunch of other high speed digital signals (USB, LAN, etc). it's a really poor environment for precision analog output.
Given his environment, it seems like a <$100 USB Amp/Dac like an E10K combined with these headphones would probably be a complete solution for him, unless he later decides he wants a more expensive/nicer setup.
Onboard audio is also fairly notorious for mangling signals pretty badly. I did my own tests with an oscilloscope on an intergated audio solution on my motherboard, and it's actually quite impressive how distorted the output waveform was (even compared to a cheap USB headphone dongle). Comparison:
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(This should be a square wave. Neither get it right but one is clearly more right than the other. I didn't have a good dac to compare at the time, but I can look at comparing with one if you're really curious.)
There's also the problem of having no hardware volume control, so you're left with windows compressing the signal to reduce volume. Since they're still operating in the same bit space, you're just losing resolution as you lower the volume.
Feb 5, 2015
SuperBobKing
145
Feb 5, 2015
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ZukaI am interested in seeing the comparison. I need to get my own oscilloscope at some point, but I'll need to wait for a good deal on ebay because I can't justify the cost of a new one.
Feb 5, 2015
Kyaku
24
Feb 5, 2015
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Zukaim actually going with a mobile set up, i have the Fiio X1 and i bought these AKG K7XX's do you reccommend getting a E17 or E07? to pair with the X1? or do you think the X1 is fine alone?
Feb 5, 2015
Zuka
3
Feb 5, 2015
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KyakuI could never tell the difference between the E17 and E07. The E07 is basically the E7 with the E17's feature set (except I believe the E17 has an extra input or two).
Basically, if you need the inputs, get the E17. If not, you'll probably be happy with the E07. The E17 does arguably have the better amp, but if you're going to obsess over minor amp differences then you're probably also in the market for something much pricier than a Fiio.
It should also be noted that the E17 has a larger battery, if that matters to you.
Feb 5, 2015
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