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Hamrobes
72
Sep 10, 2017
The sensitivity for these headphones is listed in db/v which is uncommon. Usually sensitivity is given in db/mw. This makes a big difference. Does anyone know their sensitivity in db/mw? My buddy guessed it's around 88dB/mW! That means these headphones will require a lot more power than a lot of people might guess at first. Lots of people say they sound "lean" or lack bass and that could be only because they aren't amping the headphones with enough power.
~88dB/mW would mean these headphones have very low efficiency. That's not necessarily a bad thing, it just means they require a certain type of power to sound full.
Jackula
1743
Sep 10, 2017
HamrobesWeird I calculated differently to your buddy @ 93dB/mW, which means you'll need 174mW optimal. Pretty scary since it's so close to the max input!
BTW, the nomenclature is correct. Sensitivity is measured in volts. Efficiency is measured in watts.
Michael-Q
243
Sep 11, 2017
HamrobesAlso got 92.924 dB/mW. The simplified equation is dB/mW = dB/V -30 + 10*log( R ) . R is for headphone impedance/ohms.
But yeah, k7xx does take some current to drive them.
The 300 ohm HD650 is actually more efficient despite being less sensitive. 102dB/V ->96.77dB/mW. One could argue that the HD650 is easier to drive than the k7xx -if your amp has high voltage but poor current supply (typical characteristic of "low" power OP amp circuits).
Hamrobes
72
Sep 11, 2017
Michael-QThanks guys for correcting the numbers.
Sennheiser hd 650 (6xx) will be my other headphones when they arrive at Christmas. It seems you know this stuff pretty well... Are there any amps you'd recommend that would power both the K7xx and the HD6xx well? For under $300?
FrostyP
502
Sep 11, 2017
HamrobesFor under $300? None. For under $300 you can amps that will make them loud but to use them to their full capabilities you'll inevitably have to spend more than what you paid for the headphones
Jackula
1743
Sep 11, 2017
HamrobesFor that price point I generally recommend the Lake People G103-S. It has enough power for both.
Though I tend to agree with Frosty on some level. Power and quality are not the same. Power will get rid of clipping distortion, but quality and musicality can vary between amps. For a $500 headphone, you really need some quality gear.
Michael-Q
243
Sep 11, 2017
HamrobesUse http://www.digizoid.com/headphones-power.html to figure out your target loudness. The 110 dB value is what I look at for as loud as I'd ever want. Everyone has different hearing though. You may want 120 dB >.>. Granted the headphone may explode at that level...
I generally double or quadruple the required power and use that as my minimum rated power required for an amp . The higher the rated power the more effortless it can drive speakers/headphones. Looking for exactly the needed rated power should be enough on paper but the problem is there's no guarantee a company reports the specs of their product properly. Also, distortion becomes significant near the max rated power. Thus, the 4x rated power minimum.
A lot of the other specs become increasingly hard to hear. Long as it's solid state and a non-retarded design an amp should be fairly "transparent" to most consumers. Many low budget amps use cheap power supplies (a buzz ends up in the audio->which is audible with super sensitive headphones/IEMs) or might have high output impedance (affects the dampening of headphones). Some of these things is marketing but sometimes not. The THD might be listed as well. It's hard to hear/justify objectively some of these things and extremely "easy to hear subjectively"->my belief why $1000's amps exist.
Beyond 4x power requirement I'd say the benefits becomes extremely marginal requiring hypothetical golden ears to hear (for most people-my belief). k7xx and hd6xx headphones aren't crazy hard to drive so you have lots of "good enough" options. Even the Objective 2 amp "should" be plenty of power/transparency but the volume control method seems goofy to me on it (I don't own it - budget option $75 ). I do constantly see the Schiit stack being recommended ( Magni 2 and modi 2 (ubers?) ->$300 b4 shipping). You may not need the DAC but if you have the cash it's like as good as it gets with sanity in mind. If you don't mind a mini space heater (waste a little energy - idles at 12W or something ->compare that to the heat of a light bulb -$330) and willing to put up with the hassle of ordering crap from China the audio gd nfb 11 http://www.audio-gd.com/Pro/Headphoneamp/NFN1128/NFB1128EN.htm seems to get top praise for value (it's an amp/dac combo with much higher power handing than the magni 2). Once again I don't own it but the nfb 11 is what I think I'd get just because it's slightly different technology to what I have-peaks my interest.
To properly recommend something one would have to own the crappiest of the crap to pinnacle of perfection, own everything in between, and test these specific headphones for hours if not weeks to pick up on the subtle differences. Not too many ppl have done that, have an objective mind set (unbiased), and have done proper ABX testing (helps remove bias-extra unjustifiable cost just to test?). You're going to get all kinds of recommendations all over the map because of this.
Hamrobes
72
Sep 11, 2017
Michael-QThanks for the well thought out reply. It's true, I get recommendations all over the place, which makes it hard. I've been trying to decide on an amp for the K7xx & HD6xx for weeks and I still can't make up my mind. To complicate things further, I already have a Dragonfly Red dac/amp. I only want to use it for its DAC, feeding into a separate desktop amp. Do you think that'll cause any problems with double amping? Audioquest claims the Dragonfly Red can be used with a separate amp if I max the volume on the Dragonfly Red. They claim that puts it into line-out mode, but it doesn't technically bypass the amp. It had 2.1v output, if that helps.
In any case, I would prefer to buy an amp without a dac so I can switch dacs if I want to later. I've only been into audiophile equipment for a few months but I plan on buying a lot of equipment over time. It's a hobby I know I'll be interested in forever!
Jackula
1743
Sep 11, 2017
Michael-QI generally target 115dB for budget considerations, if budget wasn't a concern I target 118dB. Remember the headroom isn't the volume you listen at, it's mostly to stop your harmonics from being clipped. Small amounts of clipping isn't obvious because harmonics drop in amplitudes and the harmonics that do clip are usually quiet enough on decent enough amps. Infrequent clipping of harmonics does affect the sound, but doesn't detract that much from the overall listening experience.
True, distortion increases exponentially at 50% of peak output, however the inverse is also true. Get an amp that is much more powerful than your headroom requirements, and you end up with more or less the same distortion as if it was performing at peak output.
We'll have to agree to disagree on quality vs power, I'm not going to debate this, it bores me as it usually goes into the same fluff that goes on for pages and doesn't add anything useful to the conversation.
Jackula
1743
Sep 11, 2017
HamrobesDouble amping adds to your noise floor. For Dragonfly Red though you can set it to line output, so that's suitable for your needs if you're going to use another amp with it.
I'd say just get whatever amp that fits into your budget, without anything else to compare with, your reaction is always going to be "wow!"
Sound is personal, if you had the chance to go into a store and audition, please do. What sounds good for me, or Michael, or Frosty doesn't mean it will sound good to you (no offense to you guys, just making the point).
Hamrobes
72
Sep 11, 2017
JackulaThe Lake People G103-S looks like a great recommendation! Thanks
Michael-Q
243
Sep 11, 2017
HamrobesThe only "major" issue to using 2 amps in the audio chain is the input of the second amp might get um over ?saturated?. The maximum input voltage varies amp to amp. For reference, I think I read 3.3Vrms/10Vpp for one - which is higher than the 2.1Vrms. Minor issues is adding more stuff into the signal chain - sometimes audible. Considering analog studios use massive signal chain circuits for mixing - it shouldn't be an issue if the first amp is transparent enough.
Long expensive hobby indeed.
Michael-Q
243
Sep 11, 2017
JackulaYeah, which is why I tried to add the imo disclaimer at various points. I'm still a baby in the hifi audio world with many disbelieves which could one day be changed.
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