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PNWNative
448
Apr 2, 2020
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A similar knife with carbon fiber scales is the SOG Terminus XR. The first version featured BDZ1, I picked it up for around $60 during Christmas. The present version is around $80 and uses S35V steel for the blade. Finally, you can find the same knife with G-10 and D2 steel for around $50 or less. All of them use the sliding Axis-like lock.
I realize that SOG in the past used mediocre steel, but they have started to step up their game as market demand has changed.
method_burger
563
Apr 2, 2020
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PNWNativedon't all acr-locks have blade play? or did they fix that as well?
and also, sog stepped up their color game too!
ponagathos
512
Apr 2, 2020
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PNWNativeThe big problem for me with the Terminus is it is a much smaller knife.
PNWNative
448
Apr 2, 2020
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method_burgerI'll be honest - I don't know if all acr-locks have blade play.
I bought the carbon fiber Terminus first and then bought the D2 steel because it was crimson red (I know, stupid reason but I like scales that are something other than black).
PNWNative
448
Apr 2, 2020
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ponagathosIt is smaller but smaller means it is legal to carry where I live.
method_burger
563
Apr 2, 2020
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PNWNativelol we've all been there, i don't buy black knives anymore. i'm starting a rainbow knife collection right now. the plan is, to make leather sheaths with clouds. because i thought that would be funny.
reswright
3850
Apr 2, 2020
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PNWNativeThat's the thing about the axis lock -- to copy it is definitely not to make it work well. Turns out it's a lot easier to put it on a knife than it is to do so in a way where you don't see blade play. Probably why SOG has more than one attempt at it, just by themselves.
It isn't a money thing -- I've got a $15 axis lock from Tonife that works perfectly, and I've seen play on $100+ axis lock knives. It's just got a narrow tolerance for working correctly and if you set up outside it or have the slightest imperfection in the surface of the tang where the bar locks up, you'll get wobble. You need mature manufacturing, not just the design.
I mean, I'm with you part of the way. It IS a little smarmy to talk about this lock as though it's entirely new. But it's def reasonable to talk about development time spent making it work even if they started out with a pic of an Osborne and went from there. Companies are spending more than a year bringing axis locking models to market because it's not quite as easy as McHenry and Williams made it look with the original patent.
As far as originality? If you take a part a Hogue axis lock - they call it an ABLE lock -- you'll see pretty quickly that it's exactly the same as what Benchmade licensed from the patent holders, just with the spring at a different angle. Now, Hogue didn't sit down and come up with its lock from scratch any more than Amare did. They're all obviously copying an expired patent. But if you look at Hogue's marketing language about the ABLE lock they do not make any reference whatsoever to the fact that they copied that design, they make it sound like they generated it inhouse. No one's jumping on them for it tho, possibly because they're a US firm.
To me, once a patent expires, it expires. It's not cheesy to use the tech, that's what we're all supposed to do -- the people who patented the tech had their period of exclusivity, which they deserved, and made fat bank during that period of exclusivity, but now it's time for the market to adopt the innovation and make stuff better. And that's how it works. The frame lock was once the Reeve Integral Lock, now everyone's got one. The liner lock was once the Walker lock. Now everyone's got one. Wave openers were patented by Emerson, now everyone's trying their hand. Now it's the axis lock. Next it'll be something else, because the wheel keeps rolling on.
PNWNative
448
Apr 2, 2020
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reswrightUhm, why are you nitpicking with ME about the lock? There are others who have made the same observation?
Go back and read what I wrote - I said I didn't know if there was play with the SOG lock, I was being honest as I stated in my comment.
reswright
3850
Apr 2, 2020
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PNWNativeIt was more a response to your comment that a bunch of different knives have the same lock, and really, it wasn't intended as a personal indictment so much as it was, you know, just talking about the subject. There's really no need to be defensive, unless of course you really want to. :)
PNWNative
448
Apr 2, 2020
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reswrightGot it, I am embroiled in litigation with a family member over my father’s estate and have not had a good day so far
no harm no foul
reswright
3850
Apr 2, 2020
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method_burgerThe arc lock and XR lock are different locks, but yeah, and no, I don't think they ever fixed it. That's why they went to the XR lock.
anonomous
558
Apr 2, 2020
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PNWNativeS35vn is mediocre steel.
Organize by steel type and look at working edge #s in the spreadsheet. Lots of premium steel that's not as premium as you thought it was cause it's being cooked like doo doo from manufacturers.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1PzXZEuyMtOMoSDhyFUfDNV9MNbztMEvZ3OgRa6yT7QU/htmlview#
PNWNative
448
Apr 2, 2020
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anonomousOK, S35V is mediorce compared to the VG-10 in this drop - got it.
anonomous
558
Apr 2, 2020
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PNWNativeI'm just saying overall s35vn is mediocre. Vg10 can perform in the same class. It's anyone's guess as to how the Vg10 will perform in this blade of this drop.
Just wanted to share the data so you can make more informed choices rather than going off of what people spit out of there mouths about steel names being better than others cause they are more popular. It's all about heat treatment. Not hrc not popular steel names, but the microstructure of the steel. M390 is often something people want... But in the chart you can see m390 is often low. And those people are getting ripped off when something like 14C28N is better, cheaper etc.
Just trying to put things into perspective in reality. For example its not some random guy saying d2 is good, cause often it's just barely better if at all than 8cr13mov in the real world.
(Edited)
DaveJ
54
Apr 3, 2020
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anonomousHeat treatment is very important it getting the most out of a given steel, but there is a lot more to blade steel than the Rockwell hardness number. Just because the edge is hard, doesn't mean it is stable or durable or chip resistant. S35VN is great because it isn't impossible to sharpen and holds a very durable working edge for a very long time. It isn't the sharpest steel but it is "sharp enough" with very little care far longer than most other steels that cost less than it. 14C28N for example is even easier to sharpen and gets extremely sharp, but even with its high hardness it tends to chip and fold over at the edge very easily. VG-10 is similar in that regard. It is great in chef's knives where you always cut softer items on a cutting board, but not so great in pocket knives.
anonomous
558
Apr 3, 2020
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DaveJIt's about microstructure of the steel.
Look here 68hrc... Not as brittle as you would think
https://youtu.be/zSL1iVeyp4U
Also sharpening has to do with not only the microstructure but Retained austenite and of course the carbides like vanadium and chromium and the abrasives being used.
Again... Heat treatment that manufacturers are using is piss poor.
Vg10 is not a bad pocket knife steel. The heat treatments used maybe or the geometry they are using is. Your not going to use a slicy blade geometry to chop or pry. And thicker won't tend to chip... But also heat treatment can reduce chipping. Chipping can also accour from manufacturers burning edges from grinding the apex and giving to much heat to that edge reducing the stability of the edge... Meaning you have to sharpen past it to get to good steel that won't chip.
Basically the manufacturer is the one inducing these problems because buyers don't know any better and just buy these because of the designs or action or material choices. They should be asking manufacturers for better heat treatment, steels that make sense and stuff like this. But instead we get people that just want action and name brand materials regardless of how bad they are heat treated.
(Edited)
reswright
3850
Apr 3, 2020
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DaveJYes, heat treatment is a double edged sword. Every steel has a hardness range it can be heat treated to achieve, but you're sacrificing flexibility in the matrix if you push it too far. It is a tradeoff, and the tests people heap on knives tend to favor high hardness more than actual every day usage tends to reward it -- because high hardness knives chip and crack. Hardness is also a measure of brittleness, after all. This appears to be the problem with most of the Massdrop cobranded kitchen knives -- they were concerned with hardness testing, not flex or chipping tests like Charpy impact testing which they apparently were never doing at all based on commentary from the manufacturer in the forum.
Kitchen knife manufacturers in particular are notorious for leaving their blades a little softer than they could, because of all the abuse people heap on kitchen knives -- people buy a hundred dollar knife, misuse it, chip it or crack it, then they scream. If it's heat treated a little less, it retains more flex, and they can't chip or crack it as easily -- it won't hold its edge as long, but people complain a lot less about that. And when you make things for a living, you tend to gravitate toward the decisions that people complain less about, whether or not they're the smartest ones you can make. And most people buying knives on Massdrop have never been trained to, say, use the precision Japanese knives with super thin edges compared to standard Western chef knives, so they're gonna go hard on them and not realize they're doing stuff that you aren't supposed to do. When you combine that with using newer steels that aren't as well understood, stuff will go wrong. It's a predictable comedy of errors.
I think the cut tests that people do are fine, but I have yet to see an actual pocket knife that people only ever take out of their pocket to make perfectly angled cuts on a piece of sisal rope, so I don't put as much stock into these tests as some do. These cut tests are to knives as, say, the 40 yard dash is to a pro football player -- important in obvious ways, but also a number that people are prone to overemphasize and overestimate when trying to choose who to start on Sunday, because it won't tell you how resilient the player is, and resilience is hugely important in a 4 quarter football game.
reswright
3850
Apr 3, 2020
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DaveJ"VG-10 is similar in that regard. It is great in chef's knives where you always cut softer items on a cutting board, but not so great in pocket knives."
You have a point but in my opinion you're missing another, possibly bigger point. When it comes to pocket knives, style of use is going to dictate what steel you will get the best results from, less than whether it's a pocket knife or not. There are people who will benefit more from a keen steel than they will from a rugged steel, and vice versa. Usage really matters. There's no one best steel for everyone's pocket knife.
I tell people to take out an old pocket knife and look at the wear on it. Is it all chipped up? If so, it's because of how you used it as much as it's because of the steel, so choose a knife steel, blade geometry, etc. that might be a little tougher. If the edge isn't all chipped up, despite use, you're going to probably be happier with a keen steel like VG-10 or Sandvik. If it's stained to fuck and back but the edge is fine then I suggest something more stainless and so on. Choose the steel that fits your usage, and don't worry about whether your buddies think it's an according-to-Hoyle badass steel, and you will come out ahead of the game. If you think you gotta chase whatever the market says is hottest and best, forget about it.
Bottom line: if you're, like hacking apart aluminum cans and trying to baton wood and hitting staples left and right when you cut up cardboard, get a steel that holds its edge better at the expense of ultimate keenness, like S35VN when compared to that VG-10. But if you use a pocket knife with a little more precision or you aren't trying to cut up things with metal in them, you might very well find that the VG-10 blade leaves your hand a little less tired at the end of the day.
reswright
3850
Apr 3, 2020
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anonomous"Again... Heat treatment that manufacturers are using is piss poor. "
Not just the heat treat.
S35VN is also a lot newer than 440, or Sandvik, or D2, or 154CM; people haven't been working with it as long, not grinding it, not heat treating it, not choosing angles or techniques. So you have people who learned how to grind and sharpen and so on with something like 440, and when they try to do the same thing to S35VN it's a hell of a lot harder to accomplish, and they're just not bringing out the strengths of the steel with what they're doing to it. But the economics are such that the Chinese can flood the market with S35VN, and as you note Westerners will often gobble it all up anyway.
anonomous
558
Apr 3, 2020
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reswrighthttps://youtu.be/PdnkLX-pWik
Manufacturers need to test several profiles to see what works and they are skipping that.
Heat treatment as seen in the video you can have different profiles for different aspects of the steel including edge retention but also chipping and other toughness tests etc.
As for Vg10, you don't see much chipping from say falklevan because they use a heat treatment for tougher tasks, as well as thicker edge geometry. It's not about choosing a lower hrc from the manufacturers stated profile of the steel. That's only a guide.
More advanced heat treat techniques can be used in custom knives and no one in mass production would use those techniques anyways.
Another good vid
https://youtu.be/3lO4zNApB2E
(Edited)
DaveJ
54
Apr 3, 2020
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anonomousAll of what you said is certainly true. But when perfectly heated treated and sharpened the better steels are better in blade geometries that are common for 2.5-3.5" pocket knives. Is excellently heat treated VG-10 better than poorly heat treated S35VN in the same blade. Likely yes. But if both are executed similarly, then the S35VN will be better for most people that want a reasonably sharp long lasting edge that needs minimal sharpening.
We have no way to know how good the heat treat on a given knife is until a bunch of people get them and use them for months. Until that happens, all we have to go on is the blade steel.
You are not going to find many people that agree with you that S35VN steel when well executed is mediocre in overall performance in a pocket knife. It doesn't excel in any one category, but it is above average in all of them.
I'm sure you are just arguing symantics to pass the time, but for others these charts are helpful when comparing the potential of different blade steels.
https://www.bladehq.com/cat--Best-Knife-Steel-Guide--3368
anonomous
558
Apr 3, 2020
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DaveJhttps://knifesteelnerds.com/2018/09/03/ranking-the-steel-ranking-articles/
DaveJ
54
Apr 3, 2020
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reswrightYep. Unfortunately, most specific pocket knives only come in 1 or 2 steel options. Maybe I'm abnormal (but I bet I'm not) but how interested I am in a knife starts with size/shape/design then I use the price and blade steel as reasons to not buy the knife. If the steel the maker choose isn't in an acceptable list, then I'm just not going to buy it unless it is priced exceedingly low.
reswright
3850
Apr 3, 2020
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anonomous"Manufacturers need to test several profiles to see what works and they are skipping that."
Yes, you're getting a situation where they're choosing the materials at first, because they're working toward a price point not a performance point.
reswright
3850
Apr 3, 2020
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DaveJ"Is excellently heat treated VG-10 better than poorly heat treated S35VN in the same blade."
You're getting closer IMO.It's not really about what the two steels can be like when they're each perfectly done for the task at hand, so much as it's about what they're really like in our marketplace when you go grab a random VG-10 knife and a random S35VN knife off the shelf and start cutting things with them. The truth is, it's easy to heat treat and grind VG-10 and a lot harder to heat treat and grind S35VN in comparison to one another.
Once you factor in the fact that it is much, much easier to excellently heat treat VG-10 than the typical super steel, let alone one that was chosen for economic reasons like S35VN usually is, and that most of the people working with S35VN are behind the curve, and hence you're working with a situation where the average VG-10 knife is a lot more likely to be properly treated than the average S35VN knife, then you've gotten the rest of the point.
I don't wanna sit here and say S35VN sucks, because it does not. Between you and me I do think it's overrated, though. I'd rather have just about any other kind of super steel, and that includes S30V, which S35VN was supposed to be an improvement over. And also between you and me, even though you probably won't find anyone on this forum that's more well disposed toward Chinese knives, if I am checking out a new manufacturer and I see the same Chinese knife built with options for 154CM or VG-10 steel, or S35VN, I'm going for the former even though they are midrange steels. I've just seen too many S35VN knives with crappy grinds and seen too many of them do poorly on tests, seen them pick up heavy, ugly patina with light use, and I just haven't seen the evidence that most of the people going with it have chosen it specifically to enhance the performance characteristics of their knife. They're choosing it because the Chinese mine all the niobium you make S35VN with, so it's dirt cheap for them compared to our costs, and everyone else just hears the phrase 'super steel' and goes 'oooo'.
DaveJ
54
Apr 3, 2020
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reswrightI don't have much (any) experience with cheap Chinese S35VN. I also wouldn't assume that many of the cheap knives are actually made with the steel they claim. The Massdrop knives (Gent and Dogtooth Liner Lock) I've purchased with S35VN have been excellent, though. Maybe I just got lucky.
reswright
3850
Apr 3, 2020
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DaveJThat's quite fair to point out.
As for me? I love my Dogtooth but it wasn't ground correctly. They buckled the left side a bit grinding it too hard, gives things a slight 'funhouse mirror' quality to the light they reflect. It was the first Massdrop branded knife I ever picked up.
Same thing with a Kizer Rattler than I picked up thru Massdrop. There's pics of both these knives somewhere on the forum.
Both these knives cut just fine, but they both had imperfections that would have made them factory seconds if they came from a mature Western operation.
Luck of the draw? Maybe. Maybe not, know what I mean? In any case that's where I'm coming from, personally.
As an aside there's been a spreadsheet linked a few times on the forum, I think someone's put it together collating all the steel test results they can find for Chinese knives. And for the most part there aren't any surprises as to who uses legit steel and who is occasionally trying to sell max-hardened 8Cr as D2 or S35VN. You never know 100% for sure, because of stuff like ghost shift knives and other counterfeiting, but it's still pretty easy to spot that firms like Eafengrow are getting busted for it, and firms like SRM are not.
reswright
3850
Apr 3, 2020
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DaveJI think the BladeHQ chart is a decent general resource for people learning about knife steel, but it's got some weaknesses as well - like, people should know that they've moved a lot of steels around on the board since they first put that thing up. It's more of a sales tool than an accurate metallurgical report on all the steels it reviews, kinda meant to help people justify paying the higher prices for top end steel. And I think they had interns put it together and then update it.
I also think they've gotten some guff over this article from manufacturers as to where some steels are on the chart, because it used to be front and center on their clickbar and now you have to go looking for it. They sell a shit ton of AUS-8 steel and they're not at all complimentary about it in the writeup. I can see Ontario going 'dude, WTF' about that, just for example.
I think the scale does a good job of showing what the main strengths and weaknesses are of the most expensive steels they list and does a much worse job of accurately comparing those steels to less expensive options. The biggest such weakness of their scale is in the midrange -- you see a huge dropoff in numbers between the 'super steels' and stuff like 154CM and it's disproportionate. Even the BladeHQ people say 'looking at the chart you'd think there's a huge dropoff in value between super steel and 154CM, but in day to day usage you'd struggle to differentiate between the two'.
But the weaknesses on the bottom are kinda hard to miss as well - their lower end numbers are not granular at all. They have all 400 series steels lumped together at the same performance level, all Sandvik steels lumped together, all 8Cr steels lumped together and so on. That's not at all helpful. No one I know thinks that 420HC and 440C are the same steel, or that it doesn't matter what grade of Sandvik you work with. I tend to think that this is also BladeHQ trying to nudge their customers toward the more expensive steels, by saying that the budget steels are all the same and that it really doesn't matter which one you pick up.
Your mileage may vary but I no longer consult that resource nearly as much as I used to.
Insofar as I have a go-to for knife steel, it's zknives.
http://zknives.com/knives/steels/steelchart.php
(Edited)
reswright
3850
Apr 3, 2020
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anonomousSooner or later someone's going to get around to cross referencing these sorts of things to actual blade geometry and grind angle and they will then become 100000% more useful.
DaveJ
54
Apr 3, 2020
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reswrightI use ZKnives also to compare steel makeup. It is a fantastic resource. Doesn't tell you much about performance without further research though. I like the BladeHQ individual charts that rate on ease of sharpening, toughness, edge retention, and corrosion resistance. I'm sure they aren't perfect but they give you a good idea of what a particular steels relative strengths and weaknesses are. Any given knife could perform better or worse than the chart though.
reswright
3850
Apr 3, 2020
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DaveJI think we're mostly in agreement about their BHQ resources. i still give them a quick look sometimes, I just trust them less as a head to head way to compare different steels because I think that aspect of it is tilted toward selling more expensive steel.
I mean, they're in the business of selling knives. No one's paying them to do a better job teaching people metallurgy. Not trying to beat them up for being a commercially oriented enterprise instead of the Socrates of knife steel.
Truth is, I think that chart gets cited mostly because people need something to cite and that's what they find and it's better than a lot of stuff out there -- as the article anonomous linked demonstrates, there's a lot of really bad info out there that purports to be authoritative.
The industry could do a better job educating people about knife steel, getting past the glitz and the people who just wanna know they got 'the best' and teaching everyone what's what, how steel's kinda rock paper scissors. But the good info doesn't sell as many premium knives, so most people in a position to write that good info down for the rest of us, aren't being incentivized to do so, so they don't. Catch-22.
method_burger
563
Apr 3, 2020
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reswrightalso, note that in real world, the skill/technique of the user plays a huge role in how an edge actually performs (along with hard variables like heat treat, blade grind, edge grind etc.) and also the final edge plays an important part in edge retention as well (toothy vs polished edge)
for skill.... i had a friend who tried to carve wood by perpendicularly 'cutting' with the edge. multiple times.
major chip on the tip from m390, 20cv, vg10, 8cr13..... i need to stop lending my friends my good knives, but with poor technique comes damage
still think s35vn holds an edge longer than vg10 and stands up to more abuse, but vg10 sharpens and takes a sharper edge easier. one isnt inherently better than the other, unless theres a huge difference in comparison (and i'm only speaking in terms of good HT)
my experience, my preferred grit for different mediums are
leatherwork, 800-1000 grit
cardboard, 200-400 grit
straight razor, 10000+ grit
edc, 1000+ grit, but as long as there are no chips, a high polish doesnt make too much difference when cutting paper and tape
also as for edge angle testing, check out triplehandmade instagram (i think thats his name). i think thats his next project in the works.
reswright
3850
Apr 3, 2020
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method_burger"also, note that in real world, the skill/technique of the user plays a huge role in how an edge actually performs (along with hard variables like heat treat, blade grind, edge grind etc.) and also the final edge plays an important part in edge retention as well (toothy vs polished edge)"
Precisely.
I like the idea of objective testing to see how knives work, i.e. all the cuts are made by machine instead of by hand, so they can properly be compared between knives. I like the idea of firm metrics that can measure important facts about a knife. Who doesn't like that kind of idea?
But how do you have an objective test for grip? You don't, not really. Everyone's hand is different. And that's pretty much the ballgame for apples to apples comparison between knives -- once you recognize that grip and handfeel aren't objectively measurable because of that fact, you are left to realize that everything you do while gripping the knife in your hand will differ too. The tiniest shift in grip means the blade cuts differently.
And that's the easy part. What's a toothy edge vs a polished edge -- more to the point, when's an edge stop being polished, and when does it start being toothy? Is my toothy edge on a Worksharp the same that you put on the steel with a whetstone? Nope, it's gonna be convex. Does that matter? Probably. How much? Dunno.
When I cut, am I using as much force as you are? Maybe. How do we find out? Good luck with that one, because you have to solve the grip problem first :)
The rabbit hole runs deeper than any of us care to plumb. There's always something else to consider.
And at the absolute bottom of that hole lies a truth -- even if we could get a definitive answer to all these questions somehow, the people in the absolute best position to tell you what that ultimate 'truth' actually is, aren't here to teach you that truth. They're here to sell you the knife...
That's the free market.
method_burger
563
Apr 3, 2020
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reswrightthats not truth, nor is it facts.
thats called marketing. and the only way to beat marketing is to know what you want (both objectively and personally)
and frankly, if someone is putting in so much thought into knives, just start making your own. you're basically designing experiments yourself at that point with grinds, heat treats, and everything else that is knife related. a whole stock removal + blow torch heat treat setup is about 100-200$
reswright
3850
Apr 4, 2020
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method_burger
I've thought about it, and I'm sure I'd enjoy it. But I have this problem that I can't take stuff like that halfway. I either give it up or go after it. Once I got good with the intro gear I'd be like 'but what could I do with a proper vacuum kiln and some ultrasonic scanners?' and then I prolly wouldn't be happy until I had that. So I dunno how long that $200 figure would hold up for me. :)
Still, though, like I said -- I've thought about it plenty.
method_burger
563
Apr 4, 2020
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reswrightlol i'm always thinking about the next step. frankly i probably wont be happy until i get a whole blacksmithing setup (but i need to buy property first) but i also want to build a good foundation, hence file work and HT using basic equipment.
but theres always leatherworking, woodworking and other knife related hobbies that..... cost just as much. but to be fair, financially speaking, crafting isnt that expensive compared to, say, a weekend trip to disneyland.
maybe take a class? that way you have the equipment from the start, and you get a feel of whether you want to really go for it or not.
Laxnerd213
226
Apr 4, 2020
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reswrightI believe I purchased the Kizer Rattler in the same drop you did. I do believe it is possible mine was a factory second as well. Given I have 5 other Kizers (acquired around $100-130 from various vendors) that are damn near perfect from a QC perspective I always blamed massdrop rather than Kizer.
I think I remember your review at the time that questioned whether or not they were in fact seconds but didnt feel qualified enough at the time to chip in.
In the time period since (about a year if I'm right) I have acquired several other Kizers from non reliable sellers (individuals on ebay and amazon) in order to save money. None of them have had any of the small issues my rattler came with. They were all damn near perfect. In the case of my rattler there was absolutely nothing wrong with the blade itself, but rather the action was a bit gritty at first (even after disassembly and cleaning) and something just felt loose. I eventually realized it was something with the clip not sitting entirely flush and was able to deal with the tiny clicking sound it would make as I enhanced my grip on the knife.
I too felt that Massdrop may have known these were seconds all along. Since a return wasn't an option and contacting massdrop customer service is almost pointless after the purchase, I decided to custom anodize mine (in thanks to bladewelove) and throw it into the work knife rotation. The rotation that actually sees real world use.
As someone whose not afraid to take my fancy tool steel spydies to work (I am an electrician whose played around with K390, M4, Cruwear, 52100, M390, Elmax, 3v, S30v, s35vn among others) I have found the chinese s35vn in my Ratller to perform very well. While I dont have anyone else other than Spyderco's s35vn to compare it to (in hard use), I have noticed very little difference in terms of edge retention, corrosion resistance (I'm from FL) and even toughness. I'm not an expert by any means in this regard but I do believe from experience that Kizer's s35vn is in fact heat treated fairly well. I'm sure there are graphs to say different, or that some knife nerd (probably one who never uses his high end knives as tools) will argue otherwise or say that I'm too stupid/inexperienced to tell the difference when I should be able to.
So all this is food for thought. I'm not saying chinese s35vn is heat treated correctly everytime or even that Kizer does a good heat treatment on theirs. Im only trying to add to the discussion with real world experience rather than debate or argue. All Im trying to say is that from real world experience, the one decent chinese made knife with s35vn steel that I havent been afraid to take to work has performed quite well. Even if the thought of it being a second is what initially gave me the courage to put it to somewhat hard use.
reswright
3850
Apr 4, 2020
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Laxnerd213Im only trying to add to the discussion with real world experience rather than debate or argue.
It's certainly welcome. I think everything you've said is reasonable.
For what it's worth, I don't think debate needs to be a bad thing. I think people are wired to take debate confrontationally for reasons of evolutionary psychology, and if you start questioning their statements many people take that as a somewhat unfriendly act, so I think I get why a lot of people shy away from debate and are hesitant to seem to give debate to someone else.
But from an informational aspect, if you want to know a lot about something, you can do a whole lot worse than finding two people who know the subject and each other, and listen to them debate opposing views. It gets everything on the table quickly and people don't get to skate on BS answers when they're covering the weak points of their preferred argument.
Of course, you don't get that without the community having a sort of collegial approach to these debates and people being willing to a) not be dicks and b) be found wrong in public on occasion. I think it's reasonable to presume that the EDC thread might not yet have fully reached this state. :) But once everyone gets on that page where we stop worrying about who's 'wrong', and that the person who's 'right' isn't gonna smirk and rub it in because he knows he's wrong about stuff too, that we all are -- once we get the whole 'dork jousting' aspect of it out of the way, for the community overall, the value of informed debate is tremendous.
As someone whose not afraid to take my fancy tool steel spydies to work (I am an electrician whose played around with K390, M4, Cruwear, 52100, M390, Elmax, 3v, S30v, s35vn among others)
Righteous. I understand why people are hesitant at first, especially when they've been taught all their lives to be careful with expensive things. And there are of course collectors and resellers for whom keeping the knives pristine is financially important. But to me, if you can't put these things to rigorous use, they aren't much use as tools let alone worth their price... and if I'm toting around something with me that I'm afraid to put to its intended use, I kinda feel like a schmuck for even owning it.
Laxnerd213
226
Apr 5, 2020
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reswrightI love debate, I just hate being the one who seems uninformed on these forums after someone with more experience and eloquence makes me look like an idiot.
I cannot agree more when it comes to knives being a tool first and foremost. Why have it if your are afraid to use it?
Now am I going to take a sebenza to work? Probably not. But anything that's not perfect, been dropped a time or two or not really eligible for resale I say why not. Or course once you use it you are essentially "all in" on being the owner of the knife in the long run.
Yet it's still such a mind game when it comes to resale value. I too have knives I'm still afraid to actually use. For example, I'll bring up my "Frodon Lock" exclusive Manix with 4v and MCF scales. I waited until they almost sold out and grabbed one at the last second. Thinking the resale value might not be that high (I mean damn the thing was available for like a year on their site) I carried it multiple times but never really used it. But after seeing one sell on ebay for $450 it went back into the safe and I'll probably never gain the courage to use it. The only other knife I have in 4V is a shaman dlc with red g10 (st knicks) which suffers from the same problem of being too valuable to use.
So while I'm a huge fan of putting these things to to hard use. I still suffer from the thought of taking something this valuable and using it. My current work rotation consists of para 3s with cruwear, k390, m4, and 52100 with all except the last having custom scales and aftermarket clips. Would most of us take a cruwear para 3 with RGT canvas micarta scales and a 45 dollar custom after market deep carry clip to do construction work? Probably not. But to me its really not a big deal and i really enjoy seeing how the different steels perform. That's said I still have no idea whether or not these steels have been heat treated by spyderco to the best of their ability.
All in all, steel choice is great but I do believe most people on this particular site do not buy listed products based on steel. Some of the best Drops on this site are Reate made knives using RWL 34 (which some bill as the Chinese CPM-154). Is it the best steel available? Not even close. But if I like the look of say the Eric Ochs Linx (which I do) I'm gonna buy the Linx regardless of steel. While blade steel does not make a knife, it's still something I consider in every purchase. But we all buy different brands for different reasons as well. I love how spyderco is constantly messing around with the next super steel, but I also love the QC, fit, finish, feeling and consistency of WE.
I guess I'm getting away from the point here. But I did think maybe adding my two cents and actual experience with using my knives might help someone down the road.
The point is we all talk about the super steels, heat treat and etc. But until we actually gain the courage to use them as tools it really makes no difference. If all I'm going to do is flick my Lavendar Keen what difference does the choice of steel or heat treat even make?
(Edited)
14themoney
1395
Apr 5, 2020
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PNWNativeI have the SOG Terminus in D2, green scales. Red wasn't available. I'm highly impressed. It doesn't have the exact ergos as the Axis, but it is very good in its own right.
reswright
3850
Apr 5, 2020
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Laxnerd213RWL-34 is Damasteel, which is Swedish. Way I understand it, it is ATS-34 with refined grain size via improvement in manufacturing techniques. That’s non-negligible, though. As you probably know, 154CM, CPM-154, ATS-34, RWL-34 and BD4 all have the same formula, and their differences, such as they are, are down to how refined and evenly distributed individual elements are within the steel matrix.
Right now I think RWL-34 is the most refined of the lot, until someone improves the alloy matrix yet again, then that steel will be the latest and greatest version. How much better? Eh. Better, but an expertly heat treated and ground 154CM knife will still be superior to RWL-34 with an okay heat treatment.
(Edited)
method_burger
563
Apr 5, 2020
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reswrighti think it was gavko that said that his preferrence on rwl-34 was that it was the easiest to work with. easy and consistent polish, and best edge retention for the money.
i tried to regrind a knife in ats-34 once.... i'm still going at it 5 years later. not awesome edge retention to speak of, but it is abrasive resistant as heck. and smells really weird when sharpening, like a sour metal smell
reswright
3850
Apr 5, 2020
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method_burgerYou can tell this link is from a few years back because it still talks about S60V and doesn't talk about a couple of newer steels, but it's maybe one of the best layman references I've ever read about knife steel. Probably old hat if you've been at it for a while, but for the folks who are a bit unsure as to what all we're talking about, this is a ten minute read that'll thoroughly ground your understanding in knife steel. https://www.bladesmithsforum.com/index.php?/topic/26515-on-the-selection-of-steel-for-blades/
reswright
3850
Apr 5, 2020
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14themoneyHave you had it apart? I'm curious as to the build.
14themoney
1395
Apr 6, 2020
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reswrightI've had a couple of Benchmade apart. I don't enjoy mucking with the Axis lock. But with the pandemic afoot ( I wonder why there is no talk of a potdemic?), perhaps I'll do this tomorrow. I'll let you know after it happens.
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