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reswright
3850
Jul 7, 2019
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It isn't forged, it doesn't have a good steel for kitchen use, and Massdrop appears to have learned exactly zero things from its earlier forays into chef knives. You don't want a super hard steel for a kitchen knife. It'll chip into your food and be much harder to sharpen once it does. The pressure placed on a knife during intensive kitchen work is enough to crack steel over time unless it's not just hard (won't grind away), but also tough (won't chip, crack or shatter). To a certain extent these traits are mutually exclusive in steel, and that's one of the reasons there is no such thing as the single best knife steel in the world. Steel is rock paper scissors. You simply don't WANT a hard steel sometimes, you want a tough steel instead for certain tasks. The truth is most of you will never be able to put a sharp edge back on this steel once it dulls, because most of you don't have professional equipment and training. So you're pretty much buying disposable chef knives, kind of like how you buy razor blades for a razor cutter. Oh, and chef knives of any steel wear faster than pocket knives. They see more cutting use day in and day out. It's one of the reason why high carbon knives do better in the round in the kitchen. It'll be great for the first month or so, then you'll start noticing issues. If you're lucky, those issues don't involve the knife blade cracking or shattering into your food. If you aren't, they will. So save your money for now. if you really need a chef knife and can't wait for a better deal -- sorry, this still isn't your deal. The first time Massdrop offers a kitchen knife that they say is forged from a single piece of high carbon stainless steel, you want to get in on that. There's a much better chance that you'll still be happy with your knife after giving it some real sustained use in your kitchen. If course if you just want to be able to say you bought kitchen knives that were made out of an entry level pocket knife steel instead of a proper knife made by people who know what they're doing, for people who know what they're doing, knock yourself out. You'll probably make the folks at Drop very happy with you.
Jul 7, 2019
doluseb
124
Jul 8, 2019
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reswrightBD1N is not an entry level steel. I think you're thinking of BD1. "forged" is BS now adays, almost all knives are laser cut. Literally everything about your post is refutable.
Jul 8, 2019
reswright
3850
Jul 8, 2019
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dolusebForged isn't 'BS'. That's kind of fatuous... The best kitchen knives are still forged. Shun does it, Zwilling does it, Wusthof does it. Bobo internet knives do not, because to fix your statement, almost all cheap knives are laser cut out of a sheet of rolled steel these days. The best kitchen knives are still forged, regardless of what else is done to them. I can tell you that as a knife nerd, a steel nerd, or an ex-chef. Forging aligns the alloy matrix more evenly and tightly. It gives the knife more spring -- the ability not to be deformed by force. That, it turns out, is stupid important to a chef knife. If you think BD1N is awesome, knock yourself out. Impress the whole world with your shrewd acquisition of some kitchen knives stamped out of a sheet of it. They will no doubt be mightily impressed by this.
(Edited)
Jul 8, 2019
doluseb
124
Jul 8, 2019
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reswrightLmao. All you have to do is look up BD1N performance. Here you go - first result -https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MR8s4EFli0E. By all accounts I can find it is superior to VG-10 and slightly worse than S30-V in terms of edge retention, and easy to sharpen. If you think Shun, and wusthof "forge" knives you're silly, they also laser cut. I find it hilarious that you think Wusthoff no-name steel, and Shun's main steel, VG-10 are superior knife steels. Almost nobody takes a bar of steel and literally forges individual knives besides custom knife makers. The reason they can claim that the blanks ARE forged.
Jul 8, 2019
reswright
3850
Jul 8, 2019
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doluseb By all accounts I can find it is superior to VG-10 and slightly worse than S30-V in terms of edge retention, and easy to sharpen. Wait, wait, let me guess -- you also think you want something with the edge retention of S30V for a task where you're banging a knife into a cutting board all day long. Because you think that edge retention is seriously the most important thing with a chef knife. Because you know things about steel, right? You watch Youtube. Anyone can go to the websites of professional knife makers and look directly at what they say about forging knives. I've gotta warn you, you're probably going to learn a couple of things, though. For example: here's Wusthof talking about it and the steps of forging it. If you pay attention you're going to discover that their knives are both forged and laser cut, and that they're not mutually exclusive processes the way you seem to think they are: https://www.wuesthof.com/international/knowledge/production/the-evolution-of-a-precision-forged-knife/index.jsp. As far as 'no name steel' - here's an explanation of Wusthof steel. http://zknives.com/knives/steels/x50crmov15.shtml. I get a chuckle out of it every time someone thinks that because high carbon steel isn't often made into the little penny ante folding knives that people carry around with them, it must not be good steel, because people would only ever sell the best stuff for pocket knives to people who are so abreast on the very cutting edge of steel info that they watch Youtube videos on it. Straight outta Fahrenheit 451. Thanks for the chuckle.
(Edited)
Jul 8, 2019
reswright
3850
Jul 8, 2019
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reswrightNow - can you get use, in a kitchen, out of a knife with a thin Japanese grind and extremely hard steel? Yes! You can. For starters you can slice things very thinly. But what you're going to find is that it's not an all purpose knife -- if you go around the kitchen doing everything you do with a chef knife, fairly soon your hard steel knife will start chipping pieces of hard steel into the things you're cutting. And then, because the steel is so very very hard when you go to sharpen it, it won't be a matter of running a honing steel over the edge a few times like with a regular all purpose chef knife. You will be putting in some serious effort -- and if you don't really know what you're doing, your knife won't get properly sharp. This is one reason why, when you look at stuff like Shun, you see these knives with a high hardness and a thin edge, you never see them being called a chef knife. It's always some special purpose task knife. Did you notice that? I bet you did. Did you know why? Evidently not. All those knifes are single maybe dual purpose. Chef knives need to be good for just about everything, and you need to not just be able to use them, but keep using them throughout the day. Seriously, you don't wanna believe me? Write Shun. Select one of their super high hardness knives, like a nakiri. And ask them 'hey is this appropriate for all around use in the kitchen?' See what they tell you. Because the answer you are going to get is 'no, that's an awesome knife, but you shouldn't use it on everything, because of its high hardness and thin grind.' For that matter, talk to chefs. Ask them - 'hey, is a santoku style knife with a 15 degree grind angle on it the same thing as a chef knife? Do you use them the same? Are there any differences? What mistakes might you make trying to use a knife with that sort of a grind when you're used to something more solid?' Then listen for a while and take some notes. Protip - you wanna listen to the chef a little more than the guy trying to sell you kitchen knives.
(Edited)
Jul 8, 2019
doluseb
124
Jul 8, 2019
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reswrightWow you are arrogant. I use Wusthof knives, I use Shun knives, I use non-stainless knives; and yes I use pocket knives (don't know why that is an insult, but whatever), and I use cheap knives. Each has a task. I don't use my japanese knives for cutting up a whole chicken. Oh, and I sharpen my own knives so I know exactly how hard/easy they are to sharpen; so yeah if i can have a steel that has the edge retention of s30v and is easy to sharpen, I call that a win. I know what I'm doing with my knives, which is why I appreciate knife steel. If all I wanted was a good all-arounder with a decent steel that's easy to sharpen I would buy a Victorinox and be done with it. I find it funny how you're talking out of both sides of your mouth when you say BD1N is a crap steel, and then talk about how awesome Wusthof is...lol. You have literally proven every point I've made about forging/knife steels/and hardness by arguing with yourself.
Jul 8, 2019
reswright
3850
Jul 8, 2019
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dolusebSure I have. Go get your S30V knife, that you think BD1N is just about as good as, and get a cutting board. Spend about an hour banging the edge of the S30V knife into the cutting board, like you were dicing something. Then stop and look at what has happened to your superior steel blade edge. Looks like it's been through a war zone, right? Right, now go get your steel and try and put the edge back on it. That's probably going to take just a couple of seconds, because you definitely know what you're talking about, right? You aren't out of your depth. I'll just wait over here... What's that? It's not working so well? Knives with a ton of vanadium are hard to sharpen? You almost need to go have them ground down again? That's so WEIRD. Who could have known? Besides chefs, or steel nerds, or knife nerds, I mean. But never mind that, let's try the same task with a high carbon forged chef knife. Do you notice how you can sharpen it back up in about ten seconds? Notice how the toughness of this blade, more than the hardness, just means that the steel edge gets nicked up instead of chipped up -- and notice that you can use a honing steel to smooth those nicks back down, very very quickly, instead of needing to actually grind away the surface? Notice how using a butcher steel for a few seconds a few times a day in between tasks ends up keeping that knife razor sharp? That's really strange, isn't it? Almost as though the people who cook for a living know things about steel, and they aren't just sitting there in the darkness waiting for you and your cheap Chinese rolled steel knife, and the video you watched of it online, to come and tell them the light. Seriously, go tell them what you're trying to tell me, and see how it plays.
Jul 8, 2019
doluseb
124
Jul 8, 2019
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reswrightYep, you're right, being a cook makes you an honorary genius metallurgist. Apparently really arrogant, and terrible at reading and/or comprehension in your case, though.
Jul 8, 2019
reswright
3850
Jul 8, 2019
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dolusebLOL! So you started out saying Shun and Wusthof don't really forge knives, that they laser cut them instead. That nobody forges knives from blanks. Then you say BD1N is almost as good as S30V - which would mean it's a very bad steel for kitchen knives, even though it's an excellent steel for pocket knives, because it can neither take the keen edge of carbon steel, nor can it be touched up with a honing steel or even a ceramic rod, and since it chips before it nicks, sharpening it involves taking a layer of metal off the bottom of the edge, or else having a chef knife with an edge like a jack-o-lantern's smile. Which most people consider to be bad. You make these assertions about BD1N based on something you saw on Youtube, when most actual knifemakers compare it to 440C or maybe Sandvik, which are fine steels but entry level and considerably less prestigious than the likes of S30V. The steel you want in a pocket knife is not the steel you want in a chef knife, which is not the steel you want in a combat knife, which is not the steel you want in a boning knife. Basically you're severely underestimating the importance of the elasticity of the metal, and its ability to deform rather than shatter - and just thinking that pure hardness is what you want for your task. Because you think there's one spectrum for steel across all tasks, that steel is either good or bad and that's it, based on what folks say on Youtube about a new steel, and that major knifemakers who have competed with each other for centuries to make the most prestigious kitchen knives are secretly using bad steel. Aaand then when all this information comes to light, now suddenly you want to talk about me, instead of the knives. You started off saying my whole post was refutable and now instead when that didn't go well, the goalposts suddenly move over toward things that are wrong with me. And instead of defending what you said, you're just saying I didn't understand it correctly... and then shutting up, because you know I understood you just fine. It's like this: I'll cop to arrogance in a heartbeat, but you aren't gonna cop to thinking that stamped knives are as good as forged ones, nor are you going to acknowledge that the steels that make a good pocket knife are not necessarily good in other applications, because you think that admitting something like that makes you sound like a schmuck. It's just the opposite, but don't let me stop you.
Jul 8, 2019
doluseb
124
Jul 8, 2019
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reswrightDone arguing with you, dude. you are literally putting words in my mouth and/or not reading what I write, and making blanket assumptions. Secondly you accuse me of personal attacks, yet the first person to throw insults was you. Suffice to say we disagree about the appropriateness and quality of carpenter's bd1n.
Jul 8, 2019
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