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LoganPhyve
93
Jun 6, 2017
ITT: people that think expensive cables make a difference arguing with people that know better
LoganPhyve
93
Jun 6, 2017
I could use coat hangers if I wanted to.
https://consumerist.com/2008/03/03/do-coat-hangers-sound-as-good-monster-cables/
Cat5 is too lightweight for power but is excellent linelevel cabling. There's a good reason it's used for data connections where signal clarity is the key factor. They're certified up to 350mhz which covers the audible spectrum amd then some.
sockpuppy
451
Jun 7, 2017
LoganPhyveHave fun with your bad speaker positioning and scratched up terminals because you had to prove something to some people on the internet
LoganPhyve
93
Jun 7, 2017
Yes, theoretically there IS a point, that is measurable with extreme precision instrumentation. Realistically, you can't hear it. If you can't hear it, it's not worth paying extra for.
> Your posturing indicates that you will come back and boast about your sublime understanding.
Is that not what you are doing right now? Seems kind of hypocritical.
LoganPhyve
93
Jun 7, 2017
sockpuppyLol, because speaker positioning and proper care are solely dependent on your selection of cables. How have I been living all these years ?!?!?! /s
kuhnsrc
91
Jun 7, 2017
If you admit that A/B testing doesn't work, then you have literally proven everyone's point. It makes no difference. At all.
kuhnsrc
91
Jun 7, 2017
LoganPhyveI think he's onto something though, I never realized how much time I spent meticulously inspecting the inside of the banana plug posts on my speakers for scratches and imperfections. I really do think I spend over 31.5 hours every afternoon polishing them after plugging my speakers in. You wouldn't believe how hard it is to inspect the scratches and remove them with the banana plug in place :P
LoganPhyve
93
Jun 7, 2017
kuhnsrcGood thing! I heard if you leave them plugged in, micro-abrasions from tectonic activity can render them scratched, and we can't have them scratched or those highs won't shine.
I hope for your sake you're storing your cables in oxygen-free, lead-lined casing so atmospheric background radiation isn't mutating the electrical properties of the cables. It's the only way I store my exotic cabling!
kuhnsrc
91
Jun 7, 2017
LoganPhyveActually yeah, my whole audio theater is inside of a vacuum; because oxygen is really bad for everything, I figured all the other gasses were bad too. It's really hard to hear my speakers from inside my spacesuit, but I feel like it makes the soundstage significantly wider because of the gold film interceptors that phase-align the spacial ohms, along with non-linearly modulating the forier series to give it a tank circuit type resonance that eliminated spectral radiance from the folded horn design of my subwoofer. (I only used the word subwoofer so that the audio weaklings could understand, because if I said 'low frequency atomic crystalline transducer', their little heads would have exploded)
DarPhyve
211
Jun 7, 2017
kuhnsrcYou really should move your listening space to an alternate dimension. Doing so will keep it safe from gravitational waves. Those random changes in space-time can cause zeptosecond dither in your DAC.
DarPhyve
211
Jun 7, 2017
Direct quote. "A/B cable testing is a road to hell. at some point your ears give up and you just have to walk away." Sounds to me like you think A/B testing doesn't work.
LoganPhyve
93
Jun 7, 2017
> It means nothing if you have not done this yourself...and YOU have not.
That's a lofty claim to make without knowing me personally.
> The thing is many people can hear the difference.
Many people *think* they can hear a difference. Show me the measurements. Show me the science. Show me something OTHER than feelings. Hell, show me a precision measuring mic recording the difference (from the speakers, not the feed cable). Feelings don't pass peer review.
> Psychoacoustics is not a field that is based in logic.
Then it's arguably not based on any science whatsoever. Just feelings. Which means it's safe to ignore.
> Just because YOU can't hear it does not mean it does not exist...
100% correct. Also 100% useless because, again, your ears are not objective precision measuring equipment. They are subjective and prone to all of the other things your brain sometimes doesn't do right, like imagining a pricey cable sounds better than a cheap one.
> ... and since YOU can't hear it, it's not worth the price to YOU.
Yup. Why would it be worth the price to me unless there's an audible performance gain? That much should be pretty obvious.
> Sorry, it's not all about you...
Oh, but it is. If I'm the guy buying it, it's 100% about me and my expectations that I'm actually getting some benefit from the cost. Liability without consideration does not a contract make.
> I'm not relying on a bunch of crap I culled from the internet to reinforce my own inability to perceive.
You're right. You're relying on your feelings instead of documented evidence. Your anecdotal records sound very trustworthy. Meanwhile, I'm relying on precision measuring equipment and the results to generate my opinion of whether or not exotic cabling is a worthwhile investment. Survey after survey after survey says no.
> Some people still refuse to believe that different tubes make a difference and can not hear the difference between DACs or subtle dithering settings...or the difference between pressings of an LP...some can.
Now you're comparing apples to oranges. Two different chips, two different pressings, two different cartridges, two different tubes, and two different DACs will behave wildly different compared to two pieces of similarly shaped metal that conduct electrons, which behave nearly identically for the intended purpose.
> You "cables are the same as coathangers" crowd are the "flat-earthers" or "Apollogists" of the audio world.
Quite the opposite, really. I'm basing my claims on science, rather than feels. This is where your comparison is backwards. You'd be the "flat earther" or "apologist" in this case. You can offer me no tangible evidence that these or any exotic cables actually SOUND better because no one else can rely on what you think your ears hear. If you honestly believe you can hear the difference, I have some quartz-encrusted solid lead cable risers to sell you.
kuhnsrc
91
Jun 7, 2017
LoganPhyveHonestly Logan you are making me swoon. Next round is on me.
LoganPhyve
93
Jun 7, 2017
kuhnsrcCheers, kuhnsrc :)
There's something very satisfying about watching someone stumble all over their own nonsensical contradictions; I'll keep swinging the bat as long as this guy keeps pitching.
kuhnsrc
91
Jun 7, 2017
LoganPhyveI'll throw some popcorn in the microwave :P As someone who was previously a physics major (I then switched to electrical engineering, and then again to computer engineering where I am happily staying), motorrad's point of view has got to be one of the stupidest things to try and defend . The mind boggles. My only guess is that those audiophooles are experiencing serious buyer's remorse and confirmation bias and need to compensate for lost cash.
LoganPhyve
93
Jun 7, 2017
kuhnsrcDID WE JUST BECOME BEST FRIENDS?!?!
kuhnsrc
91
Jun 7, 2017
LoganPhyveI SURELY HOPE SO!!!!
LoganPhyve
93
Jun 7, 2017
> All I'm saying is that with all the variables in a system a/b testing can be very frustrating
If you are testing more than exactly ONE variable at a time, you're doing it wrong. That should go without saying.
kuhnsrc
91
Jun 7, 2017
And all I'm saying is that if you have any idea the variance that each independent non-linear input has to a system, you'll understand why cables are literally the least of your concern. There is no point in spending thousands of dollars on pieces of copper that have fancy names associated with them if your speakers can't even reproduce sound accurately (Which they can't, literally do you know what a frequency response curve is lol), so the cost-benefit ratio *should* indicate you should put your money into better speakers, rather than glorified coat hangers.
DarPhyve
211
Jun 7, 2017
You have however only claimed that a psychological evaluation is needed to asses whether the difference between cables can be "heard". I for one would love to get my hands on $100k worth of the highest quality equipment available and an anechoic chamber for some testing. If there is nothing detectable coming out of a speaker when on the only variable changed is the cable going to it. The only benefit possible is the placebo effect.
LoganPhyve
93
Jun 7, 2017
>you make some very good points
>You're quite wrong
Which is it, man? Usually you wait until your next comment to contradict yourself. Exactly what am I wrong about?
kuhnsrc
91
Jun 7, 2017
"I'm way too cynical" finally a glimmer of truth <3 there is still hope!
kuhnsrc
91
Jun 7, 2017
Also I'm pretty glad that I can't hear it, that fact confirms that I am not delusional! That's a fact I can live happy with :)
LoganPhyve
93
Jun 7, 2017
> Ugh...of course...the confirmation bias argument....
This must ring some bells then? Perhaps from other people also telling you that you're full of beans?
> Different cables do work differently with different gear.
Again... where's the proof? Anecdotes don't count for squat.
> I'm not saying snake oil does not exist, it does in spades...
So you're saying the metal mix in your terminators isn't affecting audio quality (snake oil) but your metal mix in your cabling is?
> but if you seriously think a coat hanger sounds as good on my gear as some 10 year old basic Cardas.
Yup, exactly. Now you're getting it. And the survey... says yes. Yes it does.
> and that cat5 sounds as good as an impedance matched Canare pair because some clown on the internet with a spectrum analyzer said so...hahahah...your loss.
Sounds as good? Yes. Because some clown on the internet says so? No - because IEEE has cable performance standards and Cat5 meets and exceeds the use case for audio using these exact standards. It is a quantifiable measurement of performance.
>You can make your idiotic "feels" vs "science" non-argument
Sounds like flat-earther talk, brother.
> Sorry boys, I've been doing this way too long to be fooled by hooey
The irony in this statement is just... awesome... in the literal meaning of the word.
> This I know: different cables have different sonic flavors and react differently with different gear, if matched appropriately this can also affect the soundstage dramatically. Deny this if you wish
I hate to inform you, but the burden of proof is on the claimant, not the abdicator. No proof, no support.
kuhnsrc
91
Jun 7, 2017
LoganPhyveThe flerfer analogy works so well with these people!
LoganPhyve
93
Jun 7, 2017
> OK so it really comes down to this: you absolutely deny that different cables have different sound signature...no matter the price? right? They have ZERO effect on the presentation of the music, right?
In terms of purpose made conductors for listening, any old speaker wire? Absolutely. There is zero factual, scientific data to prove otherwise. In your studio, do you master based on the type of wire your customers use in their setups? I didn't think so.
> I have a sound studio in Sausalito and one in LA(Culver City) and would be happy to share with you what I know and have learned over the last 40 years.
Isn't that odd, there's that ...
"Your posturing indicates that you will come back and boast about your years of experience and sublime understanding. "
...you were accusing me of doing. But it's totally not hypocritical in any way when YOU do it despite condemning this very condescending behavior just a few posts ago.
Watching your trainwreck of contradictions in effort to make some sensible defense of your stance is plenty convincing that I don't need to waste my time or money visiting someone that can't even back up their homeopathy conjecture with fact.
linerror
61
Jun 7, 2017
LoganPhyve4 strands of 24 awg is the same as 18 awg. 8 strands of 22 awg is almost 12 awg. If you have power handling requirements all you need is to increase the number of wires. I've used cat5e to patch in a 5,000 watt generator...
sockpuppy
451
Jun 7, 2017
LoganPhyveI didn't know they made coat hangers in 10 foot runs and terminated with multi-stranded wire. How have I been living all these years?
LoganPhyve
93
Jun 7, 2017
sockpuppyBe realistic, It's a proof of concept. No one actually wires stuff with coat hangers except MacGyver. It's meant to be taken at face value as tangible evidence that the conductor itself doesn't particularly matter for listening purposes.
sockpuppy
451
Jun 7, 2017
LoganPhyveIf it doesn't matter, why aren't you using coat hangers? Or am I misunderstanding your argument?
You audio people get so angry about the dumbest shit. It's ok to have speaker wire that's actually made for speakers. They make cheaper stuff, it's not like anyone is forcing you to use $100 placebo wire.
LoganPhyve
93
Jun 7, 2017
sockpuppyYou didn't read the link I posted, did you.
Here's a summary: they had a panel of 7 audiophiles do a double-blind AB test between monster cable and an off brand cable using a plethora of equipment. The first and less shocking result was, they only correctly identified the "high quality" cable 2/7 times on average. The second and more interesting result was, one of the team members conducting the test actually swapped the "off brand" cable for a set of coat hangers, so 5/7ths of the time, the coat hangers were chosen as the "high quality" transport medium.
I'm not using coat hangers to connect my speakers because that's utterly stupid in reality. It was meant to be an actual test to see if a panel of experienced listeners could really tell the difference between something people consider "high quality" vs something that most would consider utter garbage. Case in point, any old generic conductor will do a fine job of moving power to your drivers. You won't here a difference. That's the entire point of the exercise you failed to read.
I'm not angry. As a matter of fact, this is fruit hanging so low it's hard not to step on.
sockpuppy
451
Jun 7, 2017
Jamorro
13
Jun 8, 2017
sockpuppyTL;DR Audiophiles was blindfolded and chose a coat hanger wire as the better medium for transporting sound 5/7 times
sockpuppy
451
Jun 8, 2017
Jamorro>audiophiles was
Stopped reading right there
kuhnsrc
91
Jun 8, 2017
sockpuppyHey at least Jamorro can read ;)
Jamorro
13
Jun 8, 2017
sockpuppysorry bro... english is not my first language. But i guess you are more proficient at your second language (if you even know another language) at 3am in the morning. or is it just that people telling you that you wasted hundreds of dollars on copper wire hard to take?
LoganPhyve
93
Jun 9, 2017
Jamorro> or is it just that people telling you that you wasted hundreds of dollars on copper wire hard to take?
Bingo. They're so salty they can't give it up
The other guy that *was* in this thread arguing for... finally gave up and ragequit the thread so hard he went and deleted all of his posts... which is why it now looks like we're all arguing with no one.
heysplangy
344
Jun 12, 2017
LoganPhyve*ragequit* ! exactly. It was warranted, though. You were trolling and arguing from two different accounts and intentionally mis-stating his argument back. High level troll work! I'm shocked it took him that long to get out.
LoganPhyve
93
Jun 12, 2017
heysplangyI wouldn't classify debunking pseudoscience with actual science as trolling. And as for DarPhyve, he's actually a very close friend of mine, not one of my alts. If I were going to troll from an alt, I'd never be so naive as to use an account with the same phonetic spelling of Phyve.
Motorrad rage quit because he got sick of trying to win an un-winnable argument using un-facts and un-science. If I see someone spouting nonsense, the first thing I'm doing is calling them out on it so no one else falls prey. Especially in the audio world.... where it's literally a requirement to substantiate a claim.
I would have stopped, but they just kept coming back begging for more.
heysplangy
344
Jun 12, 2017
LoganPhyveok. I was referring to kuhnsrc. did not see the other 'phyve'. It's a tough argument to even begin, especially when you're arguing with fundamentalists, but you were disingenuously twisting his words out of context which to me smells like trolling, whether you meant to or not. Out of curiosity, in your electronics testing experience, what kind of tests and what kind of equipment does one use and what kind of results does one get? How are the results interpreted? I have heard "differences", but it's likely I started with crappy wire.
LoganPhyve
93
Jun 12, 2017
heysplangyAh, yeah. Nope, not me either, lol. But now we're best friends. This is the one and only Massdrop account I have.
You'd want to compare graphs or outputs using known input test sources, reference tracks, and compare the results at the scope between your test wires and a control wire. If it were me I'd probably start with a precision function generator on a good DAC, and output that to a scope with your test wires in between. Then move on to various forms of recorded hifi audio. Record your data, compile, and compare results.
The machine will show you what, if anything, is incorrect in the signal between the various test wires. Once you have that, get someone to help you blind AB test using crap, control, and premium, after you know where the issues are. If you can pick the superior wire more than half the time, you may be on to something. You'd have to have measurable, repeatable success. Simply doing a listening AB test is nothing but exercise without the answer key when comparing something so infinitesimally insignificant as wire grades.
sockpuppy
451
Jun 13, 2017
Jamorro>people telling you that you wasted hundreds of dollars on copper wire hard to take?
What the fuck are you raving about? I use Belden cable, I don't recall what it cost but surely not more than $30-40. Have fun messing around with unbent coat hangers, I am not sure what you are trying to prove here but as long as it makes you happy that's what counts.
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