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skris88
16
Jul 6, 2020
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I have the $220 Sennheiser HD-6XX and also the $160 HiFiMAN HE-4XX headphones. The HD-6XX bass is loose (cannot be EQed away). The HE-4XX treble a little forward (easily corrected with a touch of EQ). Both compared off the 3.5mm jack of an iPad. What else is there in this sort of price range that is the perfect balance between these two?
Jul 6, 2020
Drue
241
Jul 9, 2020
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skris88Probably get an amp/dac since running something like the 6xx off an iPad is going to get you a terrible experience and probably why you don't like it.
Jul 9, 2020
skris88
16
Jul 10, 2020
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DrueI do have a extrrnal DAC connected to my PC for serious listening as well. There is no difference (I just use the iPad as a comparative standard). Try listening to solo piano on the HD-6XXs and you'll quickly hear the fault of it's bass overhang. Some people just like that bloat I guess. In fact for some thinner recordings it's even better. But better does not mean accurate. Listening to modern recordings with the HD-6XX is a pain, hence my request to find an alternative (than the HE-4XXs - which has it's own flaws).
Jul 10, 2020
Drue
241
Jul 10, 2020
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skris88Alright so you need to power the 6xx correctly as well as the 4xx to get the most out of them. You clearly don't care enough to know what you're talking about if you're using your iPad to judge your equipment, so I'm not going to even try. I'm all for this hobby being all about the music, but when you're going to talk negatively towards extremely well regarded headphones due to them being ran off an iPad I couldn't help but add my 2 cents.
(Edited)
Jul 10, 2020
skris88
16
Jul 10, 2020
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DrueYou're missing the point Drue. Both the HE-4XX and HD-6XX have the same flaws whether on an iPad or off my PC and DAC. Of course the DAC out is superior to that of the iPad. But in anything there needs to be a reference standard, in this case an easily available iPad (or iPhone, they use the same internal audio circuitry). Talking about audio quality without a baseline reference standard is useless unless you can compare it yourself. And yes, a $1,000 DAC is going to make both those headphones sound even better. But it's a meaningless comparison then. The thing is, unless you compare BOTH headphones then saying one is flawed or perfect on different equipment does not help.
Jul 10, 2020
Drue
241
Jul 10, 2020
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skris88You're using the word dac interchangeably with amp. A digital to analog converter (DAC) is not what powers your headphones. The issues you're having sound like they are not getting enough power to be driven correctly, which is a common problem I see from users on here that speak about the 4xx or the 6xx. We can forget about DACs completely for a second, and that still wouldn't change that an iPad's internal amplifier is not powerful enough to drive either of those headphones correctly even something like a computer jack can sometimes not be enough.
(Edited)
Jul 10, 2020
skris88
16
Jul 10, 2020
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DrueThat's a fair assumption, Drue. Good point. I meant a DAC/amp, not just a DAC - my bad.   The amount of power is not the issue. I have used and compared these headphones with other DACs and amps too and the flaws are the same (ie. HD-6XXs loose in the bass and HE-4XXs slightly shrill).   What I am talking about is the difference between the two headphones. Please stop focusing on the fact that I mentioned an iPod as a baseline - but that is also exactly what a baseline is all about. Something anyone can use to make their own judgements. I am sure you can try an iPod with your HD-6XXs and tell me that they ARE worse than your special DAC/amp. I wouldn't expect it to be any less so. No dispute re your argument in this regard.  But go back to the basic point I stated: "The HD-6XXs have loose bass and the HE-4XXs slightly shrill (on multiple DACs and amps - even on an iPod)." Both headphones improve with better quality DACs and amps. Clearly! But how much $$$ would (should?) the average listener spend on a DAC/amp for a $160 and/or $220 pair of headphones?? Also, point to note. I had owned the HD-600 for nearly 10 years and tried to force myself to love it's loose bass - that flaw absolutely clear on close-miked solo-piano recordings. I upgraded to a pair of HD-650s. Same problem (and EQ cannot fix overhand). Now HD-6XXs (bought second hand).  Are my HD-6XXs faulty? Well, perhaps. But it HAS THE SAME FLAW as the previous two HD-6##s! . Across multiple amps and DACs. Three HD-6## series headphones all with faulty manufacturing? Across different amps and DACs? By the way, I had the chance to try a pair of HD-700s as well. Same bass flaw.   But the same (faulty/poor-quality) amp/DAC does not cause such a flaw on a pair of HiFiMAN HE-4XXs!  Are the HD-6XXs good headphones? Heck yes! I would recommend them to anyone wanting to start in serious audio. There is no 2nd choice; for a beginner I would rate them even above that of the HiFiMAN HE-4XXs. But they do have a flaw which you will hear after a while - if you keep an open mind. Re the HE-4XX treble flaw, I am seriously considering a Class A tube DAC/amp. I am sure all that additional 2nd harmonic distortion will make it sound nicer :-).   My summary?  The HD-6XXs are a nice sounding pair of headphones. Just don't play them too loud for critical listening (unless you have a high quality DAC and high powered amp?) as that loose bass - that cannot be EQed out - will simply irritate you after a while (if you know what accurate audio is supposed to sound like).  The HE-4XXs have superb extension at both ends of the frequency spectrum, and super tight bass - just a tiny amount too forward in the mid treble (which a touch of EQ easily fixes).  But by the way, when I travel (often), I don't carry my expensive amp and DAC with me. Just my iPad with it's the internal EQ setting (2db cut at 2kH) and my HiFiMAN HE-4XX.   I cannot go anywhere without my music to enjoy!
Jul 10, 2020
ManzanitaBoy
18
Jul 16, 2020
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skris88To get the "perfect balance" with the HE-4XX's, you have to have them hooked up in a Balanced configuration. You will not get this configuration from an iPad because it's headphone jack is Single Ended. B configuration gives one superior audio--SE does not. You need to download your music from the iPad as files onto a DAP that has a B headphone output. However: 1) the DAP must be Mac OS compatible; and, 2) files downloaded via iTunes will not work. My DAP is a Shanling M5 (Mac OS compatible). With a Balanced configuration my HE-4XX's give my Audeze LCD-3's (10X the price) a run for the money. As far as I know, all computer headphone outputs are SE, but with digital cable connection from computer to DAP, Balanced audio can be obtained, provided the HP cable is wired Balanced.
Jul 16, 2020
Drue
241
Jul 16, 2020
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ManzanitaBoyThis is just too much and it isn't going to make a night and day difference especially to someone in a new hobby. I really beg you not to preach things like this as it really makes the hobby look like you need to throw money at it and you need to jump through a million hoops to enjoy the equipment that you have when that isn't the case at all.
Jul 16, 2020
skris88
16
Jul 18, 2020
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DrueHi Drue. Yes, you are absolutely correct. No use throwing good money at bad. Just get a better pair of headphones! Or a pair that fits your personal hearing bias (we all have them). The $160 HE40XXs are not the be all and end all. Buying a Mazda and trying to make it into a Rolls Royce is not the answer, just get a Benz instead (I hope the analogy still fits!) ;-) The HE4XXs are good. Just be aware of its slightly forward tone in the low treble (which could be my own hearing bias too).
Jul 18, 2020
Hex-US
18
Aug 4, 2020
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skris88I'm quite late to this but, try eq'ing them. No idea what apps you can use on an iOS device, but if you're on Windows or MacOS there are applications like Peace APO (windows). For me I had the same experience with the 6XX, there is an awesome dude named Oratory1990 on reddit; his eq profiles are professionally done with like equipment I can't afford. Try them out, it made modern music listenable and for Orchestral recordings livened them up quite a bit. Can't say if it'll be the thing that will be the solution for you but give it a shot, not really anything to lose.
Aug 4, 2020
skris88
16
Aug 5, 2020
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Hex-USHi Hex-US, Hehe. I'm no stranger to EQ and use it readily. On iDevices I use and LOVE the app called EQu. It's just that it will be nice to NOT have to reach for EQ. Also while EQ fixes the super-tight but slightly bright (to me) HiFiMAN HE4XXs very easily, it does not fix resonance overhang quite so much - the Sennheiser HD6XXs remain "tubby" even if you EQ out the bass. Like I said, try close-miked solo piano and it is chalk and cheese. Thanks for responding!
Aug 5, 2020
Hex-US
18
Aug 5, 2020
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skris88Oh I forgot to read that part, totally understandable. I know the 'tubbyness' you speak of in the 6XX, I think you may just have to find the right headphone for you, sadly demoing isn't really possible under the circumstances we're in. You may want to try the HD 600? Honestly, you may just want to save for headphones that can give you the real detail you'd want. I.E. Focal Elex, Clears; Sennheiser HD 800s; Audeze LCD's or HiFiMAN's own Sundara, Ananda, or Arya. There are a ton of flavors to choose from obviously, but although it seems arbitrary there is one dude who ranks these headphones, and I think you have similar taste to what he prefers. You probably know who he is but if not it's a dude named Crinacle, albeit it's one guys opinion you can see if headphones you've listened to matches up to his summation of it. I'll link it for you to check out. Cheers and hopefully you find the right set up for you! edit: These offerings are not in the price range aha, but I think just taking a step into the high end will be worth it anyway, instead of investing a lot into the 'mid'-fi segment. Happy hunting though! I'd say Clears should be right up your alley. crin's headphone ranking chart (not iem's): https://crinacle.com/rankings/headphones/

(Edited)
Aug 5, 2020
skris88
16
Aug 5, 2020
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Hex-USI had a pair of Sennheiser HD-600s for 8 years, bought the "improved" HD-650s (same problem) then the HD-6XXs. Identical. Re high-range, I also have a pair of Stax electostatics. So the issue is not just the $$$. As for higher resolution? You will HAVE to spend more! Clearly I am not expecting that sort of quality for $200. Just a neutral tonal balance that's not tubby and not shrill. I'm looking for a mid-priced pair of headphones mainly for when I (resume) travel that does not need EQ (for example when viewing even a YouTube video). Surely there must be one! I'll check out Crinacle. Hopefully they have found one! Cheap enough that if it breaks few tears need to be shed. Thanks for sending it on. Cheers!
Aug 5, 2020
Hex-US
18
Aug 5, 2020
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skris88Oh had no idea then, for this purpose I can only suggest a Sundara.
Aug 5, 2020
skris88
16
Aug 6, 2020
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Hex-USYeah, I'm hearing some good reports about the HiFiMAN Sundara. Unfortunately it might be like my HD-600, HD-650 and HD-6XX saga, no real difference, just their same (only slightly different) signature sound. :-( The solution is for Apple to make a system-wide EQ but that would be too much to expect. Such EQs are easily available on Android devices, but their sound chips are a little less... "robust" (for lack of a nicer word!) - even on their top of the range smartphones. And right now "she who must be obeyed" is not happy with my growing collection of unused headphones either.... Oh, to be young and innocent (and accepting of "any" quality sound)! Haha. Cheers!
Aug 6, 2020
Hex-US
18
Aug 7, 2020
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skris88Yes sir, I understand completely! I commute with my iPhone 11 Pro but actually there is only one android device that has not let me down and it's the LG G7. Amazing DAC but ehh amp, great DAP in general especially for IEM's like my Xelento or ER4's. Only device I'd recommend, but if only we had the best of both worlds on iOS. I only have 6XX's and 4XX's as my primary headphones, so I'm not experienced as you are haha, only an 18 year old trying to make some suggestions from minor experience. Thanks for all of your inputs, I appreciate it because I also learn from it as well!
Aug 7, 2020
skris88
16
Aug 8, 2020
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Hex-USGood to hear you're "new" in Hi-Fi and looking to learn. The Sennheiser HD-6XXs are excellent headphones, don't get me wrong. One of the best.  It's just not perfect (everything has its limitations).  But for someone starting out unsure which way to go, there is no better way.  Because we all build a bias over the years.  Start on the wrong direction, and you are locked into that falsehood for a long time.  Good luck with this fascinating hobby of loving music reproduction!     Re non-iOS portable players some Samsungs offer a system-wide "EQ" which is not really an EQ, but a method to allow you to tune your transducers (to a possibly false) personal preference! https://www.samsung.com/au/support/mobile-devices/how-to-personalise-your-sound-settings   Still, it "works" across all inputs, be it our precious FLAC or also YouTube etc video clips. Apple, as usual, is stubborn to those of us with sensitive hearing from our videos.  Damn!      
Aug 8, 2020
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