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Brenpai
4
Oct 29, 2020
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What's better, these or the Sundaras?
Oct 29, 2020
kohlerm
34
Oct 29, 2020
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BrenpaiAccording to this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=icTR1Yt8NNk review, the Sundara (for more money) is better. I ordered one which should arrive soon and therefore will believe him ;-) He also wasn't a big fan of the Deva IIRC (which might have the same drivers).
(Edited)
Oct 29, 2020
kohlerm
34
Oct 29, 2020
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kohlermI forgot, the Sundara most likely needs an AMP because of the higher Ohm value. From what I researched a Topping NX4 would be enough, which is another 150$/Euro.
Oct 29, 2020
parowOOz
19
Oct 29, 2020
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BrenpaiAudio is very subjective. As an enthusiast you have to go through a testing phase where you try out many options and find "your sound". During that process you will learn what to look for in a given piece of kit. A technicaly better pair of headphones might sound worse to you than a seemingly worse pair according to reviews/measurements. Being a happy owner of the Sundaras I can tell you they are good but definitely not for everyone. I use an EQ preset with them to eliminate the hump around 10kHz that just pierces my ears. For people not sensitivie to sibilance however that hump adds "zing" or "sparkle" to the sound. The other thing is that bass is there, is detailed but it may lack body to some people. Again different tastes, different music types, different DACs/AMPs that people have - all play a role in how headphones sound. Also, looking at impedance alone is not a wise thing to do. Sundaras require me to set higher output levels on my AMP than either HD660s (150Ohm) or even 250Ohm Beyerdynamic Amiron Homes ! Why ? Because Sundaras drivers have much lower efficiency. As a result even though they have much lower impedance they actually require more juice to drive them to equivalent volume levels. That said, I have tested them on both a desktop PC and a laptop and both could drive them to (at least for me) decent volume levels :)
Oct 29, 2020
Salada
43
Oct 29, 2020
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BrenpaiI have a Sundara, and just wanted to say that you don't need a $150 amp to power them. I use a $100 USD amp, the JDS Labs Atom Amp, but other good options include the Schiit Heresy. I can recommend some cheaper amps for you if you'd like some more affordable options, as these amps are crazy powerful and much more than the Sundaras needs. However both amps are very good options for whatever headphone you get now and in the future, so if you can afford them, I'd recommend going for them.
Oct 29, 2020
kohlerm
34
Oct 30, 2020
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parowOOzI agree at some point it is all a matter of taste. with regards to how much power the Sundara or other more expensive phones need,ure it is not only about the resistance, but also about efficiency. E.g. the Sundara efficiency is 94 dB/1mW, which is not that bad for a planar headphone. It looks to me that people in general tend to get amps, which deliver more power than needed just to be on the safe side. Lets see my Sundara is on the way and according to some online calculator the mobile Topping NX4 DSD should be enough to drive them 
(Edited)
Oct 30, 2020
kohlerm
34
Oct 30, 2020
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SaladaSure if you only use an amp you can get away with something cheaper. The NX4 is a mobile DAC AMP combination, which has a battery and a high end DAC in addition.
Oct 30, 2020
Salada
43
Oct 30, 2020
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kohlermImo hold back on the DAC, get something nicer later. Unless you need something portable, which is a niche thing when it comes to headphones anyways, a stack is almost always better. An apple dongle would be fine to use as a 'dac' for now if you really needed something external from the PC/laptop. Depends on what your use case is though.
Oct 30, 2020
kohlerm
34
Oct 30, 2020
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SaladaSure depends on the use cases, such as how many different headphones (hard to drive ones) your are planning to buy, and also whether you need inputs other than USB. My CDs are all ripped and stored on a NAS, and I expect to listen only via devices which have USB. Therefore ATM I don't think I need a desktop amp/dac. Practically the NX4 measures as good or better than a lot of desktop amps and I do not need more power for the time being.
Oct 30, 2020
Salada
43
Oct 30, 2020
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kohlermThe NX4 would drive them absolutely fine. Most people listen too loud, so if they tell you it can't, they're probably listening too loud. On my Atom amp, which is fed with 2.1 V RMS, I have it in low gain (which is unity gain), at around 9 o'clock on the dial, sometimes going to 10:30 o'clock, depending on the song. So, I'm not taking advantage of the large amounts of power the Atom provides anyways. If you never intend to acquire headphones that need that extra power, the power capabilities of the Atom would be overkill for most.
(Edited)
Oct 30, 2020
Salada
43
Oct 30, 2020
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kohlermOf course, solid state amplification has advanced so much that any amp aiming to provide a transparent sound is relatively affordable while also providing sufficient power. I just meant that portable amp/DAC combos are not for everyone, if you're only listening to music through a desktop PC at one location, the NX4 wouldn't be my first choice, but it's preference.
Oct 30, 2020
Audioholic924
2
Oct 30, 2020
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BrenpaiAbsolutely SUNDARA
Oct 30, 2020
mattris
1260
Keyboard Club Member
Oct 30, 2020
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kohlermThe Topping NX4 would be a ok starter DAC+amp for most people with dynamic-driver headphones, especially if its portability/small size was important. While it would likely get the Sundara 'loud enough', planar magnetic headphones require more current (Amps) to reach their full potential. The Sundara+NX4 would result in underwhelming sound-stage, dynamics, imaging, and bass quantity/quality. TL;DR -- The NX4 will not suffice for the Sundara or any planar magnetic headphone. Spend more, get more, and be done. If you want to get a separate DAC and amplifier, I would have no hesitation in recommending the American-made Schiit Magnius amp & Modius DAC. Both are superb bang-for-the-buck units and would really allow the Sundara to shine. Plus, you could incorporate just about any other device into the audio system: powered speakers, a computer (USB), any device with a PCM coaxial/optical-out, or any device with an RCA/headphone-out. I realize the total cost of the Schiit combo (plus cables) would be nearly three times the cost of the NX4, but that's the price of greatness!
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Oct 30, 2020
kohlerm
34
Oct 30, 2020
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mattrisI'm in Europe and Shiit is expensive here. Also Shiits stuff do not always measure very well. Topping is significantly cheaper here and if the NX4 does not turn out to be enough for the Sundara, then I guess would go for some desktop devices from Topping
Oct 30, 2020
mattris
1260
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Oct 30, 2020
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kohlermAfter reading up on the NX4, it looks to be one of the more powerful portable DAC/amps... at least as of mid-2018 when it was released. But I noticed a major 'feature' that may be a issue for you: The NX4 only operates using its internal battery as the power source.

It has two micro-USB ports: one for the source only (like a PC or smartphone) and the other for charging only. With your PC as the source, the NX4's battery will still be depleted. To avoid stoppages in operation (after each charging cycle), you will need to plug the NX4 into a power source using its second USB port. While you can use the device while charging, power will be still be drawn from its battery - not your USB power source. When the device's battery finally dies (from maximum charging cycles), the NX4 will not function. This would be a deal-breaker for me. Unless you have a good use for the NX4's portability, I recommend getting a true desktop solution instead, which would likely yield superior performance, especially if you could run the Sundara balanced. I also would advise against getting a 2.5 year-old DAC/amp when a successor is sure be released in the near future. Perhaps a similar device already exists without that battery-depletion 'feature'. I took a gamble recommending Schiit. Oh well. All the best to you.
Oct 30, 2020
parowOOz
19
Oct 30, 2020
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kohlermWhile it's true that Schiit has a shaky reputation, the propposed Magnius is actually a very good AMP. You can order straight from Schiit USA and count that your package won't be taxed (a present etc. like packages sent from Alliexpress) :) Like I have said, even a lowly integrated audio from a PC/Laptop magaed to drive Sundaras "adequately" so you shouldn't have a problem with the NX4.
Oct 30, 2020
parowOOz
19
Oct 30, 2020
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mattrisSmall correction, current is measured in amps and voltage with, well, volts. They are not the same :)
Oct 30, 2020
Vandenhul
247
Oct 30, 2020
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parowOOzOnly buy the Magnius if you are going to invest in balanced. Otherwise an Asgard is a better choice.
Oct 30, 2020
Salada
43
Oct 31, 2020
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kohlermPlease try to ignore all the people trying to get you to buy gear you don't need. While the comments regarding the NX4 may be true, in regards to only being able to run off the battery, you most certainly do not need a balanced amp. They do not make a headphone sound better, unless you have problematic electrical wiring in your house. On a balanced amp, typically the balanced output will be the output where the majority of engineering was focused, so it may sound better than the single ended output the same amp provides. Also, in regards to Schiit and measurements, modern Schiit amplifiers and DACs measure very well. The Schiit Heresy, their top tier single ended amp, is chart leading. However, keep in mind that its measurements are far better than you'll ever need for your human ears, it's overkill (but it's affordable for most, just not for those in Europe). Personally, I've just ordered a Schiit Magnius, a balanced amp, purely because it looks nice, has good channel balance, and has plenty of outputs, inputs and power. The balanced output is class leading and the single ended performance is not as good but the noise is well below anything audible, save for the super human ears.
Oct 31, 2020
kohlerm
34
Oct 31, 2020
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SaladaI agree with regards to balanced. From what I understand it was developed to minimize distortion for long cables. For the mobile amp I don't need a long cable, and I also would have needed a balanced cable
Oct 31, 2020
Salada
43
Oct 31, 2020
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kohlermYes, more so for professional grade equipment, say a studio microphone for example, where you will normally have very long cables going around in the place of recording. You'd have to be using something much longer than 6 ft. From what I understand, typically 20 ft is recommended as the max for unbalanced cables, however it would depend on what they're being used for.
(Edited)
Oct 31, 2020
mattris
1260
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Oct 31, 2020
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SaladaWhile usually having a low impedance rating, planar magnetic headphones need serious power on tap - at least 1 Watt into 32 Ohms - to reach anywhere close to their optimal (potential) sound. With only 293 mW into 32 Ohms, the NX4 simply doesn't have it. Also, an amplifier's gain has nothing to do with the power used. Gain is simply the strength of the input signal, measured in decibels. With sources delivering a lower voltage, a higher gain setting usually yields superior sound. The position of an amp's volume knob is irrelevant when determining how much of an amplifier's power a headphone is utilizing. Attaining 'enough volume' with a given amplifier is simply a matter of a headphone's sensitivity (dB/mV) or efficiency (dB/mW) - not a measure of the amp's capability to drive a headphone properly. In that respect, most smartphones can make most planar headphones 'loud enough' - ones that still have a headphone jack, that is. I didn't say anything about 'buying gear you don't need'. No one needs a planar magnetic or upscale headphone, or any headphone, for that matter. But for the Sundara to sound anywhere near its best, an amplifier with more power (Watts) than the NX4 can deliver will be required. After your poor understanding of those amplifier/headphone terms, I'm not surprised in the slightest with your statements regarding balanced amplifiers. Also referred to as 'fully-differential', balanced amps use a separate amplifier for each channel, with four independent buffers. As a result, balanced amps yield lower distortion, lower noise, and superior channel separation (crosstalk) than similarly-priced single-ended (SE) amps. This is a fact. The superior engineering of a balanced amp has nothing to do with "where the majority of engineering was focused". They are inherently better - period. That's not to say that good single-ended amps don't exist. They do. But saying that balanced amps "do not make a headphone sound better, unless you have problematic electrical wiring in your house" is pure nonsense. My advice for you is to not focus your attention on amplifiers' measurements, as they do not tell the full story. Human ears are not measuring equipment. Due to personal preferences, simply comparing amplifier specifications will not tell us which amplifier will sound 'the best' to you.
Oct 31, 2020
mattris
1260
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Oct 31, 2020
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kohlermThe fact is, the NX4 cannot drive the Sundara "absolutely fine" since quality sound - from headphones, speakers, IEMs, or any sound system - is much more than just 'attaining sufficient volume' or 'getting loud'. Although While planar magnetic headphones usually have a low impedance rating, they require significant 'juice' from amplifiers - at least 1 Watt into 32 Ohms - to reach anywhere near their optimal (potential) sound. With only 293 mW into 32 Ohms, the NX4 simply doesn't have it.

Balanced connections may have been developed to minimize distortion for longer cables runs, but that is not the extent of their benefits over single-ended connections. (For more on this, please read my last message to Salada.) As he noted, looks and features are often a product's primary draw over raw performance. And that's before you've heard it with your other gear. In that respect, entire books could be written on the audible affects of various DAC/amp/headphone/cable/earpad combinations on the final sound... or you could listen for yourself and decide what you hear and prefer. I hope this helped. All the best.
Oct 31, 2020
rumi
4
Oct 31, 2020
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mattriswhatever helps you and your bank account sleep better at night i guess :/
Oct 31, 2020
Salada
43
Oct 31, 2020
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mattrisIn regards to everything you said, I knew much of this already and never even addressed it. Regarding the other parts, you're simply wrong. Amplifiers are NOT providing constant power. So the claim that the amp needs to be '1W into 32 ohms" in order for the Sundara to sound its best is ridiculous. Most amplifiers are voltage controlled, that is simple fact. Where are you getting this nonsense? Even if one were to take this seriously, many single ended amps can provide 1W into 32 ohms, Schiit's own Heresy can do even more than that. When you increase the gain of the amplifier, typically this gain mode will have an increased supply of voltage at the ready. E.g. the Atom amp can get somewhere around 8.xx V in its high gain, at certain impedances (up from 2.1 V in unity gain), iirc, when supplied with 2.1 V from the source. So, when you increase the gain, you do indeed increase the potential power available (simple math will tell you that). The reason amp manufacturers label it 'gain' is just because by increasing the potential voltage, you obviously increase the potential gain. A higher 'gain' is not going to deliver superior sound, an amp's high gain can be summarized in simple terms as a volume increase (which to your ears, and in terms of the Sundara, may indeed sound better if, and only if, your hearing loss is so bad that the low gain setting is not loud enough for you, or the amplifier itself does not provide ample power for the Sundara's specs, or your source is below the usual 2 volts/4 volts of most DAC's RCA/XLR outputs). If we really want to talk about measurements, this 'high gain' normally comes with an increase in noise. Feel free to increase the voltage all you want, thus resulting in a power increase, all you're doing is reducing your hearing faster. "The superior engineering of a balanced amp has nothing to do with "where the majority of engineering was focused". They are inherently better - period." Yes, they will always measure better, however a badly made balanced amp will be inferior to a well made single ended amp. What I meant here is that if a balanced output sounds better on an amp that has both balanced and SE outputs, it is more likely that they put little effort into the single ended output, because there are single ended outputs that can measure up there with the balanced amps, all of which are far better than the human ear will ever need. Just like Schiit said themselves, for the Magnius they focused on the best balanced amp performance they could do, single ended was not their priority. So while their SE performance is not as great as a JDS Element amp, Atom, or their own Heresy, I doubt its 'poor' SINAD at 94 is audible during listening. "As a result, balanced amps yield lower distortion, lower noise, and superior channel separation (crosstalk)". You go on to say that I should ignore measurements, yet these are all points of measurements. All these things will not make a headphone sound better, unless they are in an audible range, especially when all these points you bring up are already superb on good single ended amps and far better than any human will ever need (note that I have not looked at any of these attributes regarding the NX4 as I actually did not recommend or say that these metrics were perfect on it, I never looked it up). It will not make a headphone 'sound more open', nor will it increase its dynamics, that is all nonsense. You mention noise as well, I'm sure you are aware that electrical noise coming from cables such as those going from your PC, laptop, game consoles, etc. can contribute to this, and it is of course possible that such noise can come from wherever you're plugging the amp into (and no, I do not mean ground loops). Balanced <anything> helps reduce this electrical noise because it is doing common mode rejection via reversed polarities. However, once again, in regards "lower distortion, lower noise, and superior channel separation (crosstalk)", the top performing SE amps all have superb measurements in all these categories, almost up there with the best balanced amps, and are far more capable than the human ear needs. I suggest you do your research on how much single ended engineering has progressed, instead of making things up to excuse the pointless money spending. That being said, I just wanted to say I totally understand your sentiment on American made products (or rather products that are not made in a certain country). Slave labor is real, and it's a growing concern with how poorly certain ethnic minorities are treated. I find that the build and warranty is better too when purchasing from companies you can tell for sure are not using any slave labor and pay their employees proper wage.
(Edited)
Oct 31, 2020
Salada
43
Oct 31, 2020
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kohlermOkay I just wanted to say you don't need some magical "1 Watt into 32 ohms" to power the Sundara like some are claiming. Amplifiers do not provide constant power. The main points of balanced can be largely attributed to reducing noise, or, if we want to talk about about specific metrics, SINAD. Crosstalk is a non issue on modern solid state single ended amplifiers, and if it is an issue you don't buy it. SINAD and other 'measurements' for good single ended amps are already very good, well beyond our hearing. If you want to read more of this I touched on it briefly in my reply to Mattris (who would rather make his opinions based on buzz words and how much money he's spent on those buzz word products as opposed to looking at the actual performances of good single ended amplifiers). Besides taking my word for it, I'd suggest reading through information about it on the Audioholics website, or by looking at measurements created by community members (ASR is a good source for that). I am of the opinion, along with many others, that a properly made solid state amp will sound little to no different from a solid state amp with the same specs and measurements. If you want a different sound, you can do that by trying different amplification technologies (e.g. tube amps). Our ears are not measurement rigs, no, they are worse. Our opinions are biased due to psychoacoustics (and psychological effects in general, we want and expect more expensive products to sound better, therefore we fool ourselves subconsciously into believing it). Do not purchase something because someone tells you they can hear a difference that a measurement rig cannot, instead purchase it because your own personal subjective experience tells you that (even though in reality the amp is not doing that). Don't take my own word for it, investigate some of these things for yourself, preferably with a source with some kind of evidence or credibility to back it up (e.g. not from me or others on this forum, or any forum for that matter).
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Oct 31, 2020
mattris
1260
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Oct 31, 2020
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SaladaYou said that 'I was making things up to excuse pointless money spending', but you're the one who just put words in my mouth... a lot of them. That was after you told someone planning to use a Sundara that the $160, two-and-a-half-year-old, weak on power, constant source of frustration (due to its battery depletion 'feature') NX4 "would drive them absolutely fine" when it, most certainly, will not. How ironic. Expect a full rebuttal later today. For now, I'll copy-paste this post by Massdrop member 'GiantHeadphoneSquid': "All electrical loads scale with delivered power, some just do so more linearly than others. Unlike dynamic headphones that have a magnetic coil and complex impedance (resistance, capacitance and inductance), planar magnetic headphones are just a lossy conducting strip, almost a perfectly flat resistive load at the frequencies for audio. Look at the 'Electrical Impedance and Phase Plot' from Innerfidelity for the LCD2, it's ruler flat at ~46 ohms: https://www.innerfidelity.com/images/AudezeLCD2.pdf Now compare with a pair of high impedance dynamics, Beyer DT880 600 ohms (https://www.innerfidelity.com/images/BeyerdynamicDT880600ohm.pdf), the impedance variation across the measured band is ~120 ohms! Not only that, but this impedance is a complex sum (partially imaginary, don't worry electrical engineers are TOTALLY sane), rather than a pure simple old resistor load. This means that planars scale almost exactly linearly with power, certainly more so than any other type of driver I am aware of. Reports of bass gnomes emerging from the headphone enclosure when a magical power threshold is exceeded should be regarded with skepticism then. I think much of the confusion and resulting mystique in driving planars is due to the fact that they are relatively insensitive compared to dynamics (they need more watts per ohm than we are used to) but also require higher current for power rather than voltage." source: https://drop.com/talk/18022/do-planar-headphones-scale-with-the-amount-of-power-they-get
Oct 31, 2020
mattris
1260
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Oct 31, 2020
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rumiHow do you know what gear I own... or how much I spent on it? You're the one "sleeping" here. Wake up to reality: Balanced amplifiers and connections offer superior performance to single-ended ones in every measurable facet. Whether you can tell a difference... that's up to you.
Oct 31, 2020
kohlerm
34
Oct 31, 2020
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mattrisI honestly do not understand where the 1 watt number comes from for the Sundara. I've read about that number somewhere else but not sure where it comes from. If you would drive 1W into the Sundara my guess is it would be much too loud. Therefore normally you would drive it with a much lower value. Sure the distortion at the limit of the amp is probably going up, But 293mW should be still enough for the Sundara and I expect that I can drive it far a way from the limits of the amp. But anyway, the NX4 DSD already arrived and with my not so expensive IEMs (yes easy to drive) it sounds fine to me , 0 noise and no noticable distortion with high quality DSD recordings. Anyway as soon as the Sundara arrives (next week I hope) I might do some comparisons. I could still get a cheap desktop Amp(does not fit my use case very well, because I want to use the headphones in more than one place within the house) if really more power is needed.
Oct 31, 2020
Salada
43
Oct 31, 2020
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mattrisEdit: btw, for those who cannot access those innerfidelity graphs, it is because IF was shut down, you can still view the graphs on the Wayback Machine, probably not by pasting those links into the website however. Your quoted information is literally some random dude on an internet forum who quotes some innerfidelity graphs. Those graphs are correct, but the majority of what he's saying is just half pulling things out of his a**, half using the factual information in those graphs. Also, once again, I never recommended the NX4, especially after I heard about the battery being the only point of power draw I wouldn't, I simply said it could power the Sundaras quite fine because it can, that's fact and nothing you stated there disproves that. I didn't want to argue with a guy on an internet forum all day regarding the choice in amplifier he had already bought. Whether it measures well, I have no clue, but the user who purchased it seemed to imply so and had already bought it anyway. I just wanted to inform that balanced would make no difference, only the quality of the amp itself would. You keep going back to measurements, but also want me to not pay so much mind to them. Which is it? Our ears are not measurement rigs, far from it, they are worse, and a good single ended, chart topping amp on anyone's measurement suite is going to be far better than our human ears need, let alone a good balanced amp. What you're trying to push on to someone else are your own psychoacoustics and psychology from purchasing something. You've convinced yourself that you've heard a difference, despite it making no sense for a balanced amplifier to increase soundstage, dynamics, air, etc. Instead of trying to push others to follow your own subjective, more expensive journey in this game, let them find their own enjoyment by trying equipment where they can and purchase in their price range. Not to mention that this still gives no reason for why planars need 1 watt into 32 ohms, as, again, most amplifiers are voltage controlled. If I plug my Sundara into an amp that can provide that power, it would not be fed with a constant power around that (keeping in mind that in this hypothetical world where amps do provide constant power, the Sundara is 37 ohms so it would not be fed 1 W). Oh boy can't wait for this huge reply later today that I can expect, arguing over the internet with someone who uses scientific terminology with no understanding of them, references other random users on the internet as a source, and claims that some points in measurements, that exceed human hearing, with no correlation to dynamics, soundstage, etc. somehow improves them, all while contradicting himself by saying that we shouldn't pay so much attention to these measurements, great. I pity myself for arguing with someone so misinformed. It's pathetic, both the action of me pointlessly arguing back and your baseless claims. Link me some kind of scientific article, anything more factual than a forum post that says both that planars need 1 watt into 32 ohms and that balanced amplifier increase 'soundstage, dynamics, and air'.
(Edited)
Oct 31, 2020
rumi
4
Oct 31, 2020
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mattrisif reality was to spend billions on snake oil then no thank you very much
Oct 31, 2020
parowOOz
19
Oct 31, 2020
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SaladaYes, you do not need a balanced AMP to enjoy your headphones, even to their fullest in many cases. That being said, balanced amps tend to be higher-end (higher quality components, more features etc.), their balanced output usually measures better and has more power on tap (in most cases). Are you going to need all of that power ? Depends on your setup. Some headphones do have spikes which may go outside of some amps abilities (cliping is what it's called IIRC). The impact of such an event will once again differ based on your particular setup. As far as measurements go I would agree that after a certain point the differences in performance between many amps is academic (in terms of transparency) as they occur outside of our hearing range. Even then, I would reward better engineering even if I can't phisically experience it's effects :) As for Schiit, well, you have provided a good example of why they have the reputation they have :) The Magnius is a very good amp when used from it's balanced output. It's unbalanced output is at best slightly above average. Competing amps such as Drop THX 789/SMSL SP200/Monolith THX 887 do not have such a drop in performance with their single-ended outputs and their balanced one is in the same league as Magnius. There's also another department where Schiit loses to their competition and that's their low volume performance. It drops more than competing devices and that's for both outputs. So you see it really shows that Schiit's engineering is still lacking something. They seem to be on the right track though so that's good. They also have very competetive devices like the Heresy you mentioned. With others, like Magnius, you have to know what you're buying. Otherwise you might be disappointed with your purchase. It is therefore not as well-rounded as it's competition.
Oct 31, 2020
Salada
43
Nov 1, 2020
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parowOOzYes, completely agree. I saw the low volume performance as well, which is why I will still be keeping my Atom if I get any channel imbalance when I'm listening at low volume. I get the impression that you're much much more knowledgeable than me/the average person in the hobby. Do you have any insight into perhaps the fact that those THX amps you mentioned not being 'truly balanced' possibly being the reason why they managed to keep their single ended performance so good along with the balanced output, at a competitive cost? Or does the 'truly balanced' part not really matter in practice?
Nov 1, 2020
mattris
1260
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Nov 1, 2020
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rumiWhen did I mention 'spending billions' or needing to run everything balanced to get excellent performance? Don't bother looking because I didn't say that. You clearly have a ways to go in the audio world. But just know that not everything that you don't understand, don't own, don't believe, or haven't taken the time to research is "snake oil". Ignorance and a lack of experience will get you nowhere. FYI, good balanced amps start around $200.
Nov 1, 2020
rumi
4
Nov 1, 2020
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mattriskeep crying dude
Nov 1, 2020
mattris
1260
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Nov 1, 2020
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rumiThe words of a true prideful ignoramus. Why are you even here?
Nov 1, 2020
rumi
4
Nov 1, 2020
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mattriscant hear you over my apple earpods sorry could you repeat
Nov 1, 2020
mattris
1260
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Nov 1, 2020
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rumiThe "reality" here is, You are a troll. Moving forward, you will be ignored.
Nov 1, 2020
mattris
1260
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Nov 1, 2020
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SaladaFrom the "Pairing Information" section in the Sundara's Owner's Guide: "You can power a SUNDARA happily out of your mobile phone but it does scale with more power too. If you have a moderate desktop amp or a portable powerful DAP like the SuperMini, your SUNDARA will scale accordingly and give you even greater audio performance." So the manufacturer confirms what I've been saying: The greater the power, the greater the audio performance. Based on first-hand experience, I can confirm this results in "increased soundstage, dynamics, air, etc." How was that 'random dude on an internet' incorrect?  I never said that a 32 Ohm (resistance) headphone plugged into a '1 Watt into 32 Ohms' amp would be fed with that constant power. To accurately produce audio of a higher amplitude (peaks) and/or greater bass (low frequencies), more power is required. This is where the 1 Watt of (potential) power comes into play. Saying "if a balanced output sounds better on an amp that has both balanced and SE outputs, it is more likely that they put little effort into the single ended output" is not the point of contention here. For the reasons I already specified, balanced audio is superior: lower distortion, lower noise, and superior channel separation (crosstalk) than similarly-priced single-ended (SE) amps. Specifically, what 'single ended outputs can measure up there with the balanced amps' of similar cost? Quote their specs side-by-side. "... in regards "lower distortion, lower noise, and superior channel separation (crosstalk)", the top performing SE amps all have superb measurements in all these categories, almost up there with the best balanced amps, and are far more capable than the human ear needs." How do you know what "the human ear needs"? Perhaps some people can discern slight differences that you can't. Measurements indicate that balanced is better, but one should always choose equipment based one's own personal preferences. (Though I realize that testing gear - especially before purchasing - can be an issue in the world of audio gear.) I'm aware of the recent advancements in single-ended engineering. But that does change the relevant facts, shown in the specifications. You say all outputs "are far better than the human ear will ever need". What in the world does that mean? Who's ears? And with what headphones? While you may not be able to hear the difference... or even tried to do so, can you prove that other can't hear the difference? "I doubt its 'poor' SINAD at 94 is audible during listening." You "doubt"? So you haven't heard that amp but make the claim, nonetheless? I did not say that 'you should ignore measurements'. I said that one should not focus on measurements, as they do not tell the full story. Due to personal preferences, simply comparing amplifier specifications will not tell us which amplifier will sound 'better' to you... or pair well with your other gear. What "things will not make a headphone sound better"? What defines "in an audible range" or "superb"? What things did I 'make up to excuse pointless money spending'? Ah, so you admit that you gave someone the thumbs-up on the NX4 but "never looked it up". Oops! But even if you did, you would claim that its low power output would be enough for the Sundara... when it, factually, would not. But please, try to explain exactly how the NX4 "could power the Sundaras quite fine" with only 293 mW to work with. I was simply informing someone that the NX4 would not be enough power for the Sundara and noted the benefits of balanced gear. It was you who were "trying to push on to someone else are your own psychoacoustics and psychology from purchasing something. You've convinced yourself that you - or humans, in general - can't hear a difference... without presenting any evidence. You say that I'm "trying to push others to follow your own subjective, more expensive journey in this game". But purchasing lesser-grade/low-powered equipment will result in the need to purchase more gear in order to achieve (anything nearing) maximum performance, resulting in greater overall expense. I say that it would be wiser to initially purchase superior (balanced-capable) gear and then upgrade cables, as needed/desired. "... by trying equipment where they can and purchase in their price range" people will spend unnecessarily and will remain ignorant and inexperienced. They simply don't know what they're missing... due to assumption, popular opinion, and/or pride. Go ahead and "pity" yourself more because you're obviously clueless regarding the powering of planar magnetic headphones to reach their full potential. Could it be that you haven't the relevant experience? Or is it that you just can't tell the difference due to a range of variables, like poor hearing or inadequate listening discernment abilities? You also claimed that certain 'good enough' specifications are beyond the hearing of human ears but didn't note what is 'good enough'. "baseless claims"? I'm "misinformed"? It's ironic. I suggest you perform your own research and/or compare the gear in question before offering advice on topics above your level of understanding and experience. I'm not here to convince you of anything. My desire was to point you - and the others here - in the right direction in hopes that you would open your eyes to reality... or should I say, ears.
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jdeoxys
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mattris"balanced audio is superior: lower distortion, lower noise, and superior channel separation (crosstalk) than similarly-priced single-ended (SE) amps." Quite the generalization don't you think? There are balanced amps that measure worse than SE ones at the same price or lower. For example the Schiit Magnius vs Topping L30. L30 has better distortion and noise performance for a lower price - and there are numerous other examples you could find of similar cases. Obviously the differences aren't necessarily audible or important but I don't think these kinds of "balanced good SE bad" generalizations are useful.
Nov 1, 2020
mattris
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kohlermHIFIMAN noted (see above) that more power on-tap from an amplifier results in greater performance. Generally speaking, 1 Watt into 32 Ohms should be the least amplifier power accepted to powering any low-impedance planar magnetic headphones, the Sundara included A headphone requires more power to accurately recreate moments of high volume and/or bass. In other words, high amplitude (peaks) and low frequencies require more power from the amp. 1W is enough for most headphones in most cases. The 293 mW from the NX4 will simply create a low-performance ceiling for the Sundara, regardless of your listening volume. I would encourage you to only use your IEMs - and any dynamic driver headphones - with the NX4. Your Sundara will benefit from a more-powerful amplifier. (On that note, I believe that the company XDuoo will soon be releasing a balanced version of their popular, portable XD-05 DAC/amp. Considering your use case, that unit would be worth a serious consideration.) Happy listening.
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mattris
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jdeoxysFirst of all, I never claimed, "balanced good SE bad". But what I said is generally true: Balanced tech and connections are superior to unbalanced tech and connections. While amps' measurement differences - at the higher-end of performance - aren't necessarily audible, they also don't describe 'the whole picture' of their sound, including the characteristics of center imaging, bass solidity/extension, sound-stage width/depth/height, clarity, layering, etc.
Nov 1, 2020
jdeoxys
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mattrisThe measurements suggest that SE can be as good or better than balanced, and we do see that in many cases. If you want to define balanced as superior based on unmeasurables, then you can say whatever you want but when it comes down to those three measurable things you mentioned ("lower distortion, lower noise, and superior channel separation"), balanced is not necessarily generally superior, and just as with SE gear, can vary widely between different amps and DACs and thus has to be analyzed on a case by case basis.
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Nov 1, 2020
Salada
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mattris"From the "Pairing Information" section in the Sundara's Owner's Guide:" I see the marketing is working on you. An owner's guide is not scientific evidence. It's marketing, that's all. Ironically, the power provided by the SuperMini it suggests is not that much more powerful than the NX4. While such marketing may work on you, it fortunately did not on me, and I think most people would not take product placement in a buyer's guide as factual evidence. "Based on first-hand experience, I can confirm this results in "increased soundstage, dynamics, air, etc."" An increase in power will result in more volume. If you did not have sufficient volume beforehand, it will sound better moving up to a more powerful system. A couple of marketing terms do not make something better, at least not for everyone (but for some, including you, I see it does). This just comes back to your own psychology. "1 Watt into 32 Ohms' amp would be fed with that constant power. To accurately produce audio of a higher amplitude (peaks) and/or greater bass (low frequencies), more power is required. This is where the 1 Watt of (potential) power comes into play." No, this is wrong. The Sundara, and most planars, do not have any spikes in power requirements across frequencies. Certain frequencies themselves do not require more power. That's not how sound works. Energy and frequency are separate measurements. With impedance spikes/dips, power requirements do change, however. Here is the Sundara, perfectly flat (innerfidelity measurement, unfortunately IF is gone so this image is a little low res, I could not find the OG pdf on the wayback machine): https://www.stereophile.com/images/HiFiMAN_Sundara_Graphs.jpg Edit: here is the DT880 250 ohm, for comparison: https://web.archive.org/web/20180529232307/https://www.innerfidelity.com/images/BeyerdynamicDT880250ohm.pdf "Specifically, what 'single ended outputs can measure up there with the balanced amps' of similar cost? Quote their specs side-by-side." Here are some of the Magnius' measurements: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/schiit-magnius-balanced-headphone-amp-review.15252/ Here are some of Schiit's Heresy measurements (ignore Magni 3+ measurements): https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/schiit-magni-3-and-heresy-headphone-amp-reviews.10311/ The Heresy falls only slightly behind the Magnius, at $100 less. A great purchase. In case you cannot be bothered checking for yourself, SINAD is 119 on the Heresy, 120 on the Magnius. For the rest of the measurements, you can check yourself (I'd be here all day otherwise). I would encourage you do. "You say all outputs "are far better than the human ear will ever need". What in the world does that mean? Who's ears? And with what headphones? While you may not be able to hear the difference... or even tried to do so, can you prove that other can't hear the difference?" Science says. Our ears are Schiit (haha). You can read about where abouts our hearing falls off and what is overkill in this nice article written by an audio engineer (and the creator of the O2 Amp which at the time was better than a lot of things on the market): (again, wayback machine link due to IF being gone for good) https://web.archive.org/web/20190130060030/https://www.innerfidelity.com/content/nwavguys-heaphone-amp-measurement-recommendations In short, 100 SINAD is overkill but it is where to aim for. There are many other points discussed in there, which you might wanna read (I'd encourage so). ""I doubt its 'poor' SINAD at 94 is audible during listening." You "doubt"? So you haven't heard that amp but make the claim, nonetheless?" Nice strawman, I said 'doubt', I did not say it was impossible. It is a fair ways above what it is believed for a human to audibly hear (see the previous IF article), but it is plausible, and even with unit variation you could get SINAD worse to the point that it would be more noticeable. However, when I do AB that very same amp I referred to when mentioning the 94 SINAD (the Magnius) with its SE in comparison to the Atom's SE (which measures a lot better), I will probably not go out and tell others it is noticeable if I do notice a difference because placebo is a very real and a strong thing. Biases, the urge for greater fidelity, its all very easy to trick ourselves. That's fine, in my opinion, because even if the effect is not actually there, if we trick ourselves into believing it, it will be better to US. This is the placebo effect, and obviously I do not need to explain that. If I enjoy it more, more power to me. Same with regards to your experiences, just don't tell others they need to be buying things that will not necessarily have the same effect on them, especially when it is so much more expensive. I actually did mention some desktop amps earlier in the thread (not in reply to you) which I believe to be a better purchase, as they are more 'future proof' for equipment that benefits from their extra power. They did not meet the user's use case however (desired a portable source, it seems). They were all cheaper than the Magnius as they are single ended, while measuring fantastically. "Ah, so you admit that you gave someone the thumbs-up on the NX4 but "never looked it up". Oops! But even if you did, you would claim that its low power output would be enough for the Sundara... when it, factually, would not. But please, try to explain exactly how the NX4 "could power the Sundaras quite fine" with only 293 mW to work with."
It will power it, because the Sundara has no impedance spikes, and 293 mW, even taking into account that it will be less on the Sundara's increased impedance, will be enough to take the Sundara to above 110 dB SPL (simple math). Unless you have some proof that lower frequencies on the Sundara result increased power requirements, you are mistaken and this point is mute. Regarding the NX4 measurements, I never said they were great, the user who purchased it said it measured well, and I did not go out of my way to argue with him. Whether it has a decent SINAD rating and other important measurements, I do not know, but I never claimed that anyway. It could be laughably bad, but the user, Kohlerm, said it's good, and I did not agree or disagree with him on that. "You've convinced yourself that you - or humans, in general - can't hear a difference... without presenting any evidence." I've provided some evidence in this comment, more than enough to help people who have never looked into it themselves get a head start (e.g. the IF article, written by an audio engineer, is a good place to start if you dont want to delve into scientific papers). This are not ludicrous claims however, human hearing is one of the worst in the animal kingdom. We all know dogs, cats, etc., all hear much better than us. We're not giving these amps to animals, however. My comments regarding our hearing are mostly just highschool biology. More to the point, where is your proof?

"I say that it would be wiser to initially purchase superior (balanced-capable) gear and then upgrade cables, as needed/desired. "... by trying equipment where they can and purchase in their price range" people will spend unnecessarily and will remain ignorant and inexperienced. They simply don't know what they're missing... due to assumption, popular opinion, and/or pride." There's no evidence to suggest that, and you certainly have not provided it yourself. Subjective experiences, e.g. your own, is not ample to say that this is fact. Your beliefs and biases effect even your hearing. Some might prefer listening from single ended tube amp and find it more resolving, that's just their preference, and while in this case the audible change is probably more apparent, it does not mean they are correct in saying that it is 'more resolving', it is just their subjective experience, most of which happens in the brain and is perhaps little to do with what they are actually hearing. "You also claimed that certain 'good enough' specifications are beyond the hearing of human ears but didn't note what is 'good enough'. "baseless claims"? I'm "misinformed"? It's ironic." Again, not rocket science to know that 100+ SINAD is way overkill for our human ears. Again refer to the IF article, else show me some proof of studies that conclude that humans are capable of hearing such minute noise and distortion levels. Still waiting on the proof that shows that the Sundara requires 1 Watt into 32 ohm capable amplifiers to sound its best (which contradict's Hifiman's marketing anyway, even though that means very little in the first place).
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Nov 1, 2020
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jdeoxysMate, this is what we've been arguing this whole time. It's all pointless. Honestly a waste of time. He seems to think balanced audio has some magic quality, yet refers to measurements to back himself up, despite, as you mentioned, some SE amps having similar performance.
Nov 1, 2020
Salada
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kohlermKeep in mind, in the Hifiman Buyer's Guide that comes with the Sundara, the DAP they recommend (Hifiman SuperMini) is only slightly ahead in power capabilities. 320 mW vs the 293 mW of the NX4. Keep in mind that that buyer's guide, that section especially, is just marketing. Mattris is just using that marketing and trying to make it a factual claim, despite the marketing not even being in his favour. Would Hifiman tell their Sundara owners to buy a DAP that is underpowered? I doubt it. The difference in 320 vs 293 mW is pointless anyway as both will be able to get the Sundara above 110 dB SPL (taking into consideration that the Sundara measures somewhere around 40 ohms, not the 32 ohms which those power measurements are quoted at).
Nov 1, 2020
jdeoxys
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SaladaYeah, debating subjective versus objective is mostly an exercise in futility for everyone involved. I just popped in to poke at some things I saw that are quite easy to prove. Going balanced solved all my ground loop and USB noise issues which was a worthy investment for me but sound benefits are questionable at best.
Nov 1, 2020
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jdeoxysFor sure, as I've been saying, it's great if you get some subjective perceivable benefit out of it, but telling others that they should do something because of this subjective experience is just misleading (more so when that person was purchasing an amp/dac combo 3x cheaper). Looking forward to receiving my Magnius anyway. I've not had any noise issues besides some ground hums from some bad electronics that I already removed, but for me (emphasis on that) I think it's part of the hobby to upgrade your equipment, even if it provides no sonic benefit. It's been a year since I bought the Atom and wanted something that looked and felt nicer anyway.
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Nov 1, 2020
jdeoxys
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SaladaUser experience is huge though, and having something that feels nice will naturally bias your brain to enjoy it more. Not a less valid reason to upgrade at all. That being said, I'd usually rather spend my money on headphones as each will provide a drastically different experience versus amps or dacs, which bring minute changes at best. On the other hand, I've found if you want to use IEMs and insensitive headphones out of the same source that does require some serious cash IF you have ground loop issues or really awful USB noise (which I do). Sensitive IEMs make 100dB+ noise measurements relevant. My SMSL SU-8/789 stack has audible noise with IEMs, so I'm considering upgrading to a Topping 90 stack.
Nov 1, 2020
Salada
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jdeoxysDamn that sucks about the noise. When I was quoting noise performance metrics in this thread, I was specifically referring to headphones. Completely agree that headphones make a bigger difference, the Magnius was bought just as I'm about to purchase an Elex this month.
Nov 1, 2020
mattris
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SaladaI already addressed that statement in the Sundara Owner's Guide, which noted that the Sundara scales with more power available, which yields greater audio performance. Comparing the power output of HIFIMAN's own SuperMini device to the NX4 is irrelevant. The company was merely advising that using an amp with more power than a "mobile phone" would allow the Sundara to "scale accordingly and give you even greater audio performance." I have no doubt that the NX4 would result in superior sound to a mobile phone. But that's not the point here. I'm saying that the NX4's quarter-Watt of power will result in noticeably-inferior sound than an amp with 1 Watt. "An increase in power will result in more volume." Wrong. The power specification has nothing to do with volume. I could use a very powerful amplifier and keep the headphone output volume low using the volume knob. I'm not even going to consider reading the rest of your post until you answer this direct question: Do you think that the Sundara would sound no different powered from the headphone jack of the older-model iPhone SE than with a balanced Geshilli Labs Erish amplifier? (The iPhone gets the Sundara 'loud enough'. Same output volume. Same song.)
Nov 1, 2020
Salada
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mattrisCool, if you will not do me the courtesy of reading my reply, then I won't entertain your subjective responses in regards to this whole thread any longer. FYI you're now bringing up items which may not even measure well at all (again, not that the NX4 does measure well, I never claimed it did nor did I discuss that), in regards to your question, so the whole conversation is just derailing into semantics. Again, that buyers guide is just marketing, they'll say whatever they can to direct you/suggest you towards purchasing their SuperMini, even if there are better alternatives out there. Those words mean nothing. Kohlerm already purchased his NX4 ages ago and has already received it, so this is just pointless. I'm done, I provided the facts and you still don't. I'm fine with discussing subjective experiences, but telling others to purchase something because you had a subjective experience that makes you believe it to be the case is not grounds to tell them they are wrong, especially if you do not have the facts to back it up (stop citing marketing as proof).
Nov 1, 2020
kohlerm
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SaladaWhat I did was putting the resistance and efficiency numbers into http://www.digizoid.com/power.php (it's simple math, yes) from which I concluded that I should reach the very loud to painful category, also because the power requirement for a planar does not depend on the frequency. I also checked the measurements at https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/review-and-measurements-of-topping-nx4-dsd-dac-and-portable-headphone-amplifier.3507/ where most of the desktop amps/dacs in that price category where not consistently better. Also overall it seems Toppings products measure well, which to me is an indication that their products are engineered well. As I said I do not need an optical input. I haven't bought a CD in more than 1 decades, I ripped all my CDs more than a decade ago. Sure the nx4 only running on battery might not be ideal, but so far I think I can live with that. I'm even not sure whether charging wouldn't still work in case I don't use the dac.
Nov 1, 2020
kohlerm
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SaladaThe Nx4 dsd is relatively new, assuming the sundaras arrive next week I might still able to return it. That being said I'm still not convinced I should return it. E.g. if it charged when turned off with a second cable then this is most likely okay for me for desktop home office use, assuming it runs for hours on battery.
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mattris
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kohlermYes, you will be able to attain very loud sound from the Sundara+NX4. That was never in question. It's the quality of the sound that will be lacking (bass quality/quantity, sound-stage, sound-stage, imaging, dynamics, etc.) compared to using an greater-powered amp. This is not an opinion. It is a fact. The difference can be heard easily.
Nov 1, 2020
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kohlermUp to you man, I could nitpick at some of the measurements but depending on your volume levels (e.g. mismatch at lower volumes, greater distortion at max volume high gain) and the loudness of the recordings in the music itself (which will determine how far you need to push the amp), it could or could not be a concern. I'm leaning more towards it will not be a concern, as I suspect you will be driving the Sundara somewhere around half way of the Amp's dial, and thus no where near where the amp performs its poorest. The biggest concern will be the issue of battery life, assuming the device cannot be used if in charging mode. If you decide you want to return it, the used market is always an option for selling if they will not accept a return. Once again, don't buy into a certain user's 'facts' when he provides none of them ;)
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Nov 1, 2020
rumi
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mattrishonestly dude youre the one that sounds like the troll, you just keep saying "it is a fact it is a fact blah blah blah" like a madman
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mattris
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SaladaOk, I read further into your previous post. And what did I find? Falsities galore. Of course, the Sundara doesn't have "any spikes in power requirements across frequencies". "Certain frequencies themselves do not require more power." Absolutely false. Producing bass frequencies requires more power from the amplifier. The better the amp and headphones, the more cleanly bass can be re-produced, especially at higher volumes. With amplifiers with a high output impedance, a dynamic-driver headphones' impedance spikes/dips may result in poor performance - especially in the bass. I'm not claiming that most - or even many - "humans are capable of hearing such minute noise and distortion levels". But humans can hear differences in channel separation (crosstalk). This is a facet in which balanced amp are consistently superior to SE amps. In regards to power requirements, planar magnetic headphones behave differently than standard dynamic driver headphones. To perform anywhere near their optimal level, one needs an amp with at least one Watt of power available and 150 mA or more of current. While I'm not going to perform in-depth research for you, I will say, you need to look into current mode amplifiers, which are ideal for driving planar magnetic headphones properly. The website Sound Geek Pro briefly talks about planar magnetic headphones. Also, search for "current" here for this Reddit user's experience. But the best proof is personal experience. In that regard, do you even have experience with planars? Kohlerm may have purchased a NX4 that he can use to enjoy his IEMs and any standard headphones. But that doesn't make this discussion 'pointless', nor has it 'derailed into semantics'. What "subjective responses" did I make? Quote me. I'm stating fact after fact and asked you numerous, specific follow-up questions. You, on the other hand, are outright espousing falsity after falsity. I knew you didn't know what you were talking about when you said that 'the NX4 would drive the Sundara absolutely fine'. And you went downhill from there.

"... but telling others to purchase something because you had a subjective experience that makes you believe it to be the case is not grounds to tell them they are wrong, especially if you do not have the facts to back it up (stop citing marketing as proof)." By obsessing over HIFIMAN's mentioning of their own DAC/amp - as an example of a device more powerful than a "mobile phone" - to dismiss their statement that 'more power yields greater audio performance', is quite a pathetic and desperate attempt to discredit HIFIMAN... and me. I wonder if you truly think they're lying. Or perhaps you're just upset that I won't link you an article that proves me right. It doesn't matter. You're still wrong. Claiming that this is a "subjective experience" is akin to you saying that a Ferrari with Toyota Corolla tires and low-octane fuel would result in approximately the same time around a track than the same model Ferrari with performance tires and high-octane fuel. You may get around the track with the lesser tires and fuel, but you lost the race. With an efficiency of 94 dB/mW, the Sundara should be able to 'get loud enough' with any amp, right? Now let's imagine an amp with specifications identical to the approx. 1 Watt/37 Ohms Geshilli Labs Erish, except for power (Wattage). This imaginary amp provides only 250 mW into 37 Ohms. Sourced from the same DAC, do you think both amps would produce identical sound with the Sundara? If you refuse to answer this simple question, I will take it that you think both amps would result in the same sound with the Sundara. You would be wrong. But the reality is, nothing you've said in this thread would contradict this assumption. While I'd like you to answer all of the follow-up questions I've asked you in my previous post and this one, I want you to answer the last one (bolded). Then I will read the rest of your previous post and respond further, should I feel the desire. But the reality is, you are wrong on so many counts that I'm loosing count, taking considerable time to call you out on your ignorance, false statements, and assumptions on topics of which you are unaware and experiences you lack with the products in question.
Nov 1, 2020
Salada
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mattrisFirst off, you can't just bold something and make it true. After this comment, I am done speaking with you. You seem to believe you are the all mighty powerful person, who's time is precious and can only be granted to a few. You're such a child, and I mean that, where do you get off bolding things like "this is fact", "you're wrong", blah blah blah. As if I need you to read my comment and refute it when you're simply going to reply with "you're wrong". Wow, incredible insight. I am writing these comments as to inform others who may read, that is all. You've lost count? I've lost count of how many times you've said "you're wrong" and "that's fact" without providing any evidence. ""Certain frequencies themselves do not require more power." Absolutely false. Producing bass frequencies requires more power from the amplifier. The better the amp and headphones, the more cleanly bass can be re-produced, especially at higher volumes. With amplifiers with a high output impedance, a dynamic-driver headphones' impedance spikes/dips may result in poor performance - especially in the bass." No, certain frequencies do not require more power to produce, in an overall sense that frequencies are a measurement separate from power. When we're talking about dynamic headphones, they have impedance spikes/dips that do require more/less power to product those frequencies (and, as you mentioned, in regards to high output impedance). Planars do not suffer from this. You can't just bolden "Absolutely false.", then say that I'm wrong, without providing any evidence. That's not how it works. "I'm not claiming that most - or even many - "humans are capable of hearing such minute noise and distortion levels". But humans can hear differences in channel separation (crosstalk). This is a facet in which balanced amp are consistently superior to SE amps." But you did, in fact you went on about how such reduced distortion/noise is better on balanced amps, resulting in better sound. Regarding crosstalk, the best single ended amplifiers preform well in this regard too, so I don't know what your point is. You can look up the crosstalk figures for the Heresy, Topping L30, and Atom Amp yourself, and compare to the Magnius, most of these companies publish these specifications. The easiest to compare would be Schiit's Heresy and their Magnius as they are fully published by Schiit themselves in their test suites. They are quite close, especially at the Sundara's range of impedance. "In regards to power requirements, planar magnetic headphones behave differently than standard dynamic driver headphones. To perform anywhere near their optimal level, one needs an amp with at least one Watt of power available and 150 mA or more of current." You don't provide any proof to back this up, once again where is the proof that you need 1 W into 32 ohms. You have none. "While I'm not going to perform in-depth research for you, I will say, you need to look into current mode amplifiers, which are ideal for driving planar magnetic headphones properly." Current mode amplifiers result in increased noise, due to the conversion that takes place, and, once again, you did not provide any proof as to why it is better. Further, the Magnius is not a current mode amplifier, so this is kind of just out of the realm of this conversation. Nobody is interested in this unless you can back it up. "The website Sound Geek Pro briefly talks about planar magnetic headphones. Also, search for "current" here for this Reddit user's experience. But the best proof is personal experience. In that regard, do you even have experience with planars?" Yes, briefly it does. What's your point? How does them bringing it up and making some generalisations and basic statements about planars help your point?? Are you just trying to pad your comment with links to somehow portray credibility? Further, a Reddit user's experience is not proof, it's one person's experience. It's no different from someone on the internet saying that essential oils made them feel better, or that they cured some illness. There are so many things at play, or biases for one, that can change our subjective experiences. That's great, but it does not make them fact. Regarding planars, yes, I own the Sundara. I have owned cheaper planars too. I have an audio store near me that I have visited a few times and tried various gear (though, obviously, not much in the 2nd half of this year, pandemic and all). Funny quote from the soundguys: "Good examples of higher impedance headphones are the Audeze LCDX. Used mostly used by DJ and audiophiles since to them audio quality matters most as opposed to portability.". Yea, show me all the DJs using an LCD-X. This site is full of broken english and is just giving generalised knowledge. I'm not saying any of it is wrong, because nothing on it screams outlandish, but at the same time it does does not help prove your point either, they're not providing facts about anything you've mentioned, not that the article seems to be trying to do that anyway. "What "subjective responses" did I make? Quote me. I'm stating fact after fact and asked you numerous, specific follow-up questions. You, on the other hand, are outright espousing falsity after falsity. I knew you didn't know what you were talking about when you said that 'the NX4 would drive the Sundara absolutely fine'. And you went downhill from there." The claim that balanced audio results in increased "dynamics, imaging, soundstage,..." etc. is all subjective. It does not improve these things objectively, factually, etc. I was right about the NX4, if you're still going to say that it cannot drive it, provide some factual evidence (not Reddit, Drop comments, or your own subjective experiences). "By obsessing over HIFIMAN's mentioning of their own DAC/amp - as an example of a device more powerful than a "mobile phone" - to dismiss their statement that 'more power yields greater audio performance', is quite a pathetic and desperate attempt to discredit HIFIMAN... and me. I wonder if you truly think they're lying. Or perhaps you're just upset that I won't link you an article that proves me right. It doesn't matter. You're still wrong." It's a company, they're not a person, of course they would want to market their own product, and there's nothing wrong with that. If you want to believe that everything a company puts in its marketing material is factual, go ahead, I'm just saying that it's not factual proof. Bolding things does not make you right (haha). I'm not upset that you won't link an article that proves you right, because I doubt that one exists. I could not care less, I'm just trying to present a more objective, factual side to your subjective opinions on people purchasing more expensive equipment. "Claiming that this is a "subjective experience" is akin to you saying that a Ferrari with Toyota Corolla tires and low-octane fuel would result in approximately the same time around a track than the same model Ferrari with performance tires and high-octane fuel. You may get around the track with the lesser tires and fuel, but you lost the race." How is this relevant, this is something that could be measured. Bad analogy. "With an efficiency of 94 dB/mW, the Sundara should be able to 'get loud enough' with any amp, right? Now let's imagine an amp with specifications identical to the approx. 1 Watt/37 Ohms Geshilli Labs Erish, except for power (Wattage). This imaginary amp provides only 250 mW into 37 Ohms.
Sourced from the same DAC, do you think both amps would produce identical sound with the Sundara?." Yes, they would, for a few reasons: because lower frequencies do not require more power, especially in a planar of all things; because you would use less than 250 mW to achieve desirable volume. Extra power means nothing if the headphone will not use it, which the Sundara will not. There are no spikes in required power for lower frequencies. Feel free to cite scientific evidence otherwise. Now, I'm done because I've wasted my time talking to you about this when you are so flamboyantly arrogant about it. Enjoy your sound, just don't try to make it fact for others.
Nov 1, 2020
mattris
1260
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Nov 1, 2020
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SaladaI am also "writing these comments as to inform others who may read", taking my "precious" time to warn them that you have no clue what you're talking about. An amplifier with more power and current (than another amp) does not result in improved the sound with planar magnetic headphones? Saying 'You have a ways to go.' would be quite an understatement. So many of your claims - of which you did not "prove" either - are just plain false, whether I present factual evidence in my posts or not. In that regard, 'proving you wrong' would take many hours of research, quoting numerous books and articles. (And even then, you'd probably dispute them.) I'm simply not going to bother. People - you included - should do their own research and experience products first-hand when possible. People who take my advice will realize that I was right about everything... and you were wrong.

My bolding was for emphasis. And how bold of you to call me "such a child" when you're the one espousing falsities left and right. I find it hard to believe how someone can be so wrong on factual matters - but take so much time to keep repeating provable lies. It's really you who are as stubborn as a child. Yes, "frequencies are a measurement separate from power". But that is irrelevant to the fact that producing bass frequencies requires more power from an amplifier. The better the amp and headphones, the more cleanly bass can be re-produced, especially at higher volumes. Did you ever wonder why a speaker amplifier - or A/V receiver - gets so hot when handling sub-bass... but runs cooler when the bass is redirected to a powered subwoofer? Answer: The bass takes more power from the amps to reproduce. (Check out solderdude's post here, which should get you intrigued enough to research further.) Generally speaking, channel separation is superior on balanced amps. It's simply inherent in their engineering. At least 1 W into 32 ohms is the generally-accepted amplifier power spec for those looking to power planars properly. Ask any audio engineer or professional. Ask anyone who tested planars on low-powered amp or your phone. Since you have a Sundara, test this yourself. You might hear high-frequency distortion... but the lifeless, bass-less sound is unmistakable. There's your proof.

I never claimed that balanced audio results in increased "dynamics, imaging, soundstage, etc." I said that a more powerful amp would result in those sound characteristics. No, you were wrong by claiming that the 'NX4 would power the Sundara absolutely fine'. The little Topping device will get them plenty loud, but a more-powerful amp (Watts and Amps) would yield superior results. Factual evidence exists based on the technology of planars and their electrical resistance, but the differences can be easily heard. (Again, try this yourself.) Yes, HIFIMAN mentioned a product they make as an example of a more-powerful device than a "mobile phone". But that doesn't invalidate the 'more power yields greater audio performance' statement from the Sundara's official Owner's Guide. What I don't believe are the lengths you're going in desperation to discredit me... and HIFIMAN. "I'm just trying to present a more objective, factual side to your subjective opinions on people purchasing more expensive equipment." The irony here is simply incredible. Measure the bass output from the Sundara on a very low-powered amp (like a phone) and a higher-powered one. Or, ya know, just listen for yourself.

"Yes, they would..." Oh my. True, one might "use less than 250 mW to achieve desirable volume" with the Sundara. Then the audio signal hits with high levels of bass, which requires more power from both amplifiers. The weaker amp can't keep up and will distort, unable to send a clean, strong signal to the headphones. The stronger amp gets though that difficult passage due to having the power reserves. At least I am 'flamboyant' and correct. My claims be corroborated with engineering and mathematical data measurements and formulas. On the other hand, the vast majority of your claims are factually wrong. I'd like to believe that you were one of the most persistent trolls I've ever encountered. But I suspect you're just a stubborn person who knows so much that just isn't true.

Oh, I will 'enjoy my sound' in my (subjective) opinion. But that doesn't change the facts of these technologies, which apply to everything and everyone using them, even stubborn ignoramuses like yourself.
Nov 1, 2020
Salada
43
Nov 2, 2020
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mattrisBecause the amp you mentioned was voltage controlled, a reduction in power in my eyes automatically just makes me assume less potential voltage. You're right though that a power decrease by that much would need to be more than a voltage decrease, so my bad. That being said, a current decrease does not mean it will make the headphone sound anemic. It would depend on the headphone and how much you're decreasing it by. You cannot compare a subwoofer to a planar headphone in your context. You also have to realise that not all amplifiers have a flat frequency response, however for the following we are assuming a headphone solid-state amplifier, and all the ones we have been mentioning thus far are flat. Regardless, the solderdude post does not improve your argument because he is not saying that lower frequencies require more power. He is referencing music here to help with his explanation. If the song was completely flat (unrealistic, but hypothetical, we'll go back to the song in a sec), the bass would not require more power than the rest of frequencies in the music. Going back to the song he is referencing in that post, the bass does require more power (the same can be said for most music). However, when we talk about the volume levels an amp is able to provide to a headphone, it's if a sound of 0 dB is playing, when this is obviously not the case all the time (e.g. a song may peak at -10 db). Regardless, the bass is not going to exceed this (ideally of course, for obvious reasons). So, if we say that the NX4 is 250 mW at 40 ohm (hypothetical, it doesn't matter). Now, let's say you set the dial to a position that puts 40 mW into 40 ohm, and it's powering the Sundaras (very loud for most songs fyi, do not do this without good reason). This is just hypothetical, I'm not saying that you should do this measuring, or that everyone has the equipment to do so, it's not the point. Now, if the song played is the very same one in the graph on solderdude's post, then the bass will require the most power. However, the bass will never exceed 40 mW of power drawn (the song in the graph doesn't look like it peaks at 0 dB, so it won't get anywhere near there). It will require more power than the rest of the frequencies though, but again will not exceed that 40 mW. The bass in this song does not require more power than a 0 dB 1 kHz test tone at the same position on the NX4 dial. Unless you have actual evidence to back yourself up (the solderdude post is not agreeing with what you're saying) this idea that bass requires more power is wrong. Lastly, once again, it's fine for a company to market their products. That's all the buyer's guide is. It's not disrespectful to pick apart marketing, there's no need to get so upset about it. And I could care less about disrespecting to you, it's not like you're a saint. No one deserves respect, it is up to the individual to provide that to someone, if they believe the person is someone they should respect. That doesn't mean they treat the other person like trash, mind you, that's not what I mean. Unless you can actually provide evidence that planars require 1 W into 32 ohms, one from a credible source, this is still mute. Not Reddit posts, random Drop posts, etc. I think Solderdude is a credible source but I do think that a scientific write up with sources is always better, but I don't think that matters too much here anyway. This is over if you're not going to provide any factual evidence. I'm pretty sure you're just trolling at this point so I don't think this is worth going further. I'm worried your next post will just be a bolded blob of text at this rate. I think you have quite a ways to go. Perhaps one day you will realise that adding ellipses, bolding words, etc. does not otherwise make false statement a true one, and it does not substitute facts. Nor does anyone care for your pathetic attempts to use them just to highlight "I'm right, you're wrong" sentences with nothing to back them up. Love to know what books or scientific papers you're talking about, but I'd rather they not come from your a**. Edit: because I don't want to argue any further when it is pointless and a waste of time for both parties, I'm just going to explain the solderdude post a little better here: As solderdude mentioned, an amp does not "discriminate between frequencies". At no point does he say that "bass requires more power", or that the "amp will provide more power to the bass". Here, the larger "voltage excursions" Solderdude mentions of the bass are due to both the recorded song example having more bass, and the user's desire to increase the bass. When solderdude explains the clipping, what he means is that an increase in bass at the max potential voltage of the amp will result in clipping because the amp cannot provide it, and thus this clipping will effect all frequencies, cutting them out. The nwavguy post is largely the same issue (I'd cited him earlier in the thread, I've read his blog posts many times and it's where I've learnt a lot of stuff in the past). I'm not going to continue with these quote the person above posts, point out where they're wrong, I legitimately don't have a whole lot of time in my life to do that, even if it only takes a quarter of an hour. I hope the solderdude thing makes more sense now, but, if not, read the nwavguy post linked below in this thread, which, again, does not say you need 1 watt into 32 ohms for a planar, nor does it say that amps give more power to bass frequencies over other frequencies, but it does explain power. Read it in your own context, however, do not read it in conjunction with people's opinions on what his blog means (myself included!). It's not that complicated anyway.
(Edited)
Nov 2, 2020
kohlerm
34
Nov 2, 2020
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mattrisI agree that device looks interesting. Thanks!
Nov 2, 2020
kohlerm
34
Nov 2, 2020
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mattrisI found this http://www.mediafire.com/file/jg79bjpwtnnatmm/how_loud_do_you_listen.pdf/file following some of the links mentioned. Seems interesting e.g of the song mentioned at the "normal" 80db it peaks at 92db. Not that much of a difference and I do not intend to listen at higher volumes.
Nov 2, 2020
mattris
1260
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Nov 2, 2020
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SaladaOn the contrary, that post by solderdude did agree with what I'm saying. Directly quoted: "The large voltage(power) excursions of the low frequencies will clip the amp. It is not that 'bass' goes first as the output signal of an amp is an addition of all signals. An amp can and does not discriminate between frequencies. The smaller and higher frequency signals thus will also (temporarily) clip (be removed) when the amp clips. This is audible as 'grungy' mids and coarser treble. Having enough power to spare (headroom) thus makes sense. You can play louder with more power and the way our hearing works (equal loudness contours/Fletcher-Munson) this also means bass becomes relatively more audible.
So more power allows for more impressive sound/bass without it turning 'nasty' When upgrading do this by buying an amp with 5x to 10x more power." In short, what he said: To achieve 'more audible bass that is more impressive', more power is required. He also said that more power avoids amp clipping, which causes "grungy mids and coarser treble". This sentiment was also stated by nwavguy in his More Power? article - quite an informative read. Note the sections that mention power, peaks, and clipping. Someone quoted an email from the planar magnetic headphone company Audeze:
"Extra power is not to play loud all the time but to preserve the power for high dynamics in music." (Since it was not posted by Audeze, I realize this quote can be taken with a grain of salt. But there's no reason doubt this person.) In the world of personal audio, it's practically common knowledge that HIFIMAN HE-6 planar magnetic headphones require serious power to achieve their maximum sound potential. Some people even use a speaker amplifier -to- headphone plug converter. Again, this is an example of planar magnetic headphones scaling (improving) with more power. At least 1 Watt per channel into 32 Ohms is a commonly-accepted specification to look for when looking to power planar magnetic headphones well. More power, voltage, and current is always welcome. I merely used the 'speaker amplifier' example to demonstrate that by removing the sub-bass frequencies, an amp generates less heat because less power is used. For the last time... In that context, the Sundara Owner's Manual is not (exclusively) marketing. Unsurprisingly, HIFIMAN named a device they make in order to provide a concrete example of a device that provides more power than a "mobile phone". This does not invalidate their 'the headphones scale with more power' factual statement. I was not looking or hoping for "respect" from anyone. I was merely reporting facts. In that regard, I have (finally) posted links that corroborate my previous claims. I appreciate you admitting your initial mistake regarding my 'two differently-powered amps' question. I hope you also realize your many other misstatements and misunderstandings. In reality, it was actually you that "have quite a ways to go."
(Edited)
Nov 2, 2020
kohlerm
34
Nov 2, 2020
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mattrisIf I understand you correctly, simply speaking you are saying that it is not enough to have power do drive the headphone for the average DB level. That would make sense to me. I still doubt that for an 8ODB average you would need much more than the power for 100DB for the peaks.
Nov 2, 2020
mattris
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Nov 2, 2020
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kohlermYou're right. To avoid distortion, clipping, lack of bass, "grungy mids and coarser treble" with planar magnetic headphones, the amplifier in use cannot be lacking in power, voltage, or current. The simple reality is: While the Topping NX4 is a good value DAC/amp for standard dynamic-driver headphones and IEMs for those who spend time away from their desk, it is not planar-friendly.
Nov 2, 2020
parowOOz
19
Nov 11, 2020
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SaladaI wouldnn't connsider myself more knwoledgable than anyone as I'm fully aware of how limited said knnowledge is in my case. I try and learn, understand how thinngs work "under the hood" to not be duped into buying something I don't need and to make more educated buying decisions based on objective facts. Only after they check out I can start considering the subjective - my preferences etc. As far as Magnius vs THX amps I'll use a quote from one of their people to answer your question: "We only use one phase of the balanced output so there is no cancellation of distortion between phases. We could have made the SE measure the same but to be honest it adds parts which adds cost, we didn't like how it sounded when tested and frankly we have an awesome SE amp in Hersey. We made an extraordinary balanced amp at a very competitive price. If you want SE performance, save yourself a hundred bucks and buy Heresy." As simple as that :)
Nov 11, 2020
kohlerm
34
Nov 16, 2020
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parowOOzFYI, Sundara finally arrived :-) So far my impression is that it works fine with the Topping NX4 DSD. Depending on the music I might not even have to use high gain mode. Will do some comparison as soon I get access to other amps.
Nov 16, 2020
parowOOz
19
Nov 16, 2020
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kohlermAwesome ! Some very long and very satisfying listening sessions before you. Hope the Sundaras put a smile on your face many times during those sessions. Have fun !
Nov 16, 2020
kohlerm
34
Nov 17, 2020
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parowOOzThe headphone is fantastic! I might replace the cable at some point in time, it is too stiff for my taste.
Nov 17, 2020
parowOOz
19
Nov 21, 2020
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kohlermGlad to hear you are enjoying your new headphones. They definitely do punch above their weight. Hm, that's interesting. I did not find the stock cable to be stiff at all. Too short but not too stiff. If you want to know what a stiff cable feels like, get HIFIMAN's own Crystalline cable for your Sundaras :P THAT is a stiff cable :D
Nov 21, 2020
kohlerm
34
Nov 21, 2020
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parowOOzThe headphones are great and the Nx4 dsd works fine for them. I got used to the cable in the meantime. I'm coming from super soft item cables like this https://www.aliexpress.com/snapshot/0.html?orderId=3002420802527870&productId=32873260968&edm_click_module=order_detail&tracelog=rowan&rowan_id1=buyerSignedV2_1_de_DE_2020-02-07&rowan_msg_id=ddd3861faf7948f39a5c4b211b428c0a&ck=in_edm_other Seems like there are similar cables which work for the Sundaras ...
Nov 21, 2020
parowOOz
19
Nov 22, 2020
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kohlermGetting a message saying the product wasn't found. Either way I tend to stick with the headphones' manufacturer own cables as a general rule. I'm willing to pay more for the peace of mind. Be sure it is directly compatible with Sundaras and other HIFIMAN headphones. Don't just use connector types as a means to choose which cable to buy. For reference - Tried using the cable I have for Amirons, with the same termination, and it turns out that both manufacturers wire their cables differently as I got a distorted sound from the Sundaras. Flat, kind of distant sound reminding me of how speakers sound like if you mix up the "+" and "-" connecting them to your amp. Didn't try to connect the cable the other way (L cable to R cup) as I had already orderred the Crystalline cable and also did not want to potentially damage something :)
Nov 22, 2020
kohlerm
34
Nov 22, 2020
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parowOOzYeah the link even does not always work for me. You might google Yinyoo 16 Core Silver Plated Cable. Thx for the hint about the cable, would have assumed it would always work. Searching on aliexpress for "Sundara cable" reveals some options that hopefully would work.
(Edited)
Nov 22, 2020
parowOOz
19
Nov 22, 2020
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kohlermI have absolutely no experience with this brand so won't comment on their build quality etc. Reading people reviews however paints a rather favorable picture for these cables. People do seem happy with their purchases though most of them refer to IEMs not full size cans like Sundaras. Hey, there's one way to find out if their cables are any good - try it for yourself :) Price seems more than reasonable so even if you don't like the cable you won't be kicking yourself for spending too much money :)
Nov 22, 2020
parowOOz
19
Nov 22, 2020
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kohlermOK I need to clarify a few things about the cable. My comments about being sure the cable is strictly for Sundaras and other HIFIMAN headphones refers to balanced cables only. If you are not planning on using or simply don't have a balanced output on your output device you shouldn't worry about it. Just remembered I had used the Sundaras with the stock cable that came with Amirons... Btw, HIFIMAN has a cable that is priced similarly to those Yinyoo cables (when they're not on sale that is). Check it out, might be exactly what you're looking for and straight from Sundara's manufacturer :) https://hifiman.com/products/detail/253
(Edited)
Nov 22, 2020
kohlerm
34
Nov 23, 2020
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parowOOzFYI looks like Topping amps are on sale (15%). E.g about 120 Euro for the L30 seems like a good price to me. Of course that is an AMP only device
Nov 23, 2020
mattris
1260
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Nov 23, 2020
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kohlermFor simplicity and high performance, my advice for you is to get a balanced-capable desktop DAC/amp combo and a balanced cable for your Sundara. Purchasing a replacement single-ended cable or separate lower-level DACs/amps are not wise investments.
Nov 23, 2020
parowOOz
19
Nov 24, 2020
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kohlermNot in the market for another amp at the moment and I just received my D70 from Drop so I'm set for the time being as far DACs and AMPs go. Thanks for the tip though :) I will be going for Topping's A90 AMP to be my "end-game" solid state amp in the near future. BTW, D70 is thicc ! And quite heavy. The SMSL SU-8v2 looks like D70's little brother :D
Nov 24, 2020
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