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Recently we’ve seen a lot of discussion around the materials used in Holy Pandas and we feel the need to clarify.
When we launched the Holy Panda switch in 2018, we confirmed the top housing was Polycarbonate: https://drop.com/buy/massdrop-x-invyr-holy-panda-mechanical-switches/talk/2280647?utm_source=linkshare&referer=R6FTNP
So every Holy Panda out in the wild is using a polycarbonate top housing that’s painted to match the Nylon bottom.
Quick note: Nylon is a thermoplastic, a class of plastics that melt to liquid when exposed to heat (gets more slippery under friction/heat), and have poor impact resistance. Polycarbonate has great impact resistance, and bad friction behavior (ever rubbed two CD cases together?) so poly/nylon blends are very common.
When we re-launched the Holy Panda switch in Feb 2020, we posted saying the housing was going to be POM: https://drop.com/buy/massdrop-x-invyr-holy-panda-mechanical-switches/talk/2572608
This was a miscommunication; Holy Panda housing is and has always been Polycarbonate top with Nylon bottom.
If you purchased out of a desire for POM switches, we apologize for the confusion and we’re glad to offer a refund, please reach out to support via your transaction page.
If you purchased out of desire for the Holy Panda switches that have been highly recommended since release, know that your Holy Panda switches are representative of every other Holy Panda switch we have produced.
The Holy Panda page has been revised to correct this typo.
Sorry for the confusion and a big apology to the MK theorycrafting community for the anti-climactic conclusion.
Thanks for the clarification. This is good to know
Knowing this now, can anyone chime in on how different these drop "holy pandas" compare to what the community would consider an OG holy panda switch?
To my ears, these have slightly less ping, but I can only hear a difference when I'm holding the switches right up to my ears. I doubt I could reliably tell them apart in a blind comparison. The experience of typing on the two is nigh indistinguishable.
these are much scratchier and depending on what spring you use, have worse springs. you can always spring swap though. however they are 100% scratchier. in my comparison they also have less of a “pop” sound, compared to my yok mint pandas. sound is preference however, but I do believe my yok pandas have more of the “holy panda sound” people are looking for. nevertheless, these drop pandas are for sure scratchier. they also have pretty bad springs stock. overall I wouldn’t recommend them, especially for the price. if you really want holy pandas, I would recc making your own. otherwise I would recc getting durock tactiles/lilacs/t1s/koalas (they’re all the same). they’re half the price and muchhhhh smoother, with a large tactile bump as well.
Does this mean that all future runs of HPs are going to remain the same? Or is Drop still looking to make POM switches?
We'll explore a POM switch if there's sufficient interest, but we'd approach it the same way we're approaching other switches this year, as a discrete project, etc. Would be called something else, maybe grease panda :p
You talking about a miscommunication, calling it a confusion or a typo, but you are basically used false advertising to sell the switches, no matter if you knew or you didn't. I seriously don't care how and if BSUN is accountable, cause I bought the switches from you and you need to check if it's true what you're claiming.
Now you tell us we can get a refund, BUT as far as I got the help section article about refunds right I still need to pay custom fees and shipping for switches I only bought cause you advertised them wrongly (unlubed POM switches).
And that you are always have sold fake POM switches doesn't make the situation much better I guess.
Thanks for the information and clearing up the confusion. Can you please address the report of the switches arriving factory lubed? Mine arrive today, and while I was planning to lube the switches, I was not planning to remove anything from the factory.
How do I get my 'Full Refund' Am I'm going to be compensated for returning these switches back to drop? Shipping is going to cost around $45 USD to ship them back.
Maybe fix that comment about it being unlubed too when a represntative from drop clearly just told us that it WIPED. Huge difference and false adverstising at its best too. Again I would like to reiterate that this is not nitpicking! The description is just outright deceptive!
Same. While it's fine for US buyers with their free returns I doubt international buyers would be so lucky, not to mentioned the taxes and duties paid for an falsely advertised product.
@Will would it be possible to get a partial refund on the product instead?
Maybe they should advertise them as more expensive Halo switches and all the problems are gone.
Contact support via your transactions page and ask for a refund.
Instead of shipping them back, we'll ask you to record yourself destroying them, maybe you could burn them? Outside though. (Joke folks, don't burn plastic)
@Will contacted them, they said they will not refund the shipping costs. you got to be kidding me right? I live in Hong Kong and you're asking me to burn switches on the streets??? they didn't say anything about burning the switches.
here is the reply "If you are interested in a return, please know that return shipping is paid by the customer. Additionally, any inbound/outbound shipping fees, taxes, and duties/customs are non-refundable. You may review the details by clicking here."
this is for a falsley advertised product and people like us get the short end of the stick.
Alright, the real policy is that we pay for the return shipping (we don't refund VAT, that's between you and the government) and give a refund.
Based on the cost of return shipping, cost of team members time working on it, it would be easier for everyone and more economical if we had a "proof of desctruction" policy, but that's not ready today.
Having made this offer in the thread, I will make good on it should pomato3 produce a video of burning said switches, but otherwise it's standard process.
Please reference the thread and explain you're requesting a refund because the item was not as described.
@Will I refferenced the thread by replying to the original email. I will not produce a video of burning the switches because the only open areas in hong kong is on the streets where 100's of people walk on every minute. I could pour bleach on it but not sure if thats going to do anything to destroy the switches.
Lol sorry for the confusion, you don't have to do any of that, support will get back to you with a refund and further instructions.
It was literally advertised as a POM holy panda that was unlubed, and people thought of it as such. Videos were made calling them POM holy pandas. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KeSfHHjfeYQ
You can't just turn around and call that a typo, and get away with it scot free. Is this not complete false advertising?
so because Drop lied to us we have to end up paying taxes and fees on an something we would not have bought otherwise? so we lose either way?
Why did you guys call it POM?
If it were pom, it'd probably be easier to burn. nylon and poly? diff story
I would also like to know this since it is expensive to ship back internationally. I think a partial refund is fair due to the false advertising.
We can't burn them because there is no POM in them. Nylon self extinguishes and melts. That is why you are apologizing in the first place! This is a pretty convenient error as it allows you to market a switch with characteristics people want, but not actually follow through on your promises. It was just an oopsie, so whatever. You have caused harm to the drop brand with dishonest marketing and poor quality control. You don't deserve the business of the mechanical keyboard community.
this is ridiculous blatant false advertising. i always knew something seemed wrong, but it literally took people in the community having to melt switches to call you guys out on your convenient "mistake". if you actually cared you would refund or partially refund all victims regardless if they can return the switches or not. by now so many of us have soldered them onto boards or lubed and filmed and spring swapped them. our time and effort is wasted on top of our trust in this dishonest company.
This is unacceptable and the sheer fact that you want people to destroy them is absolutely bonkers. Can we do something to defend ourselves from this blatant abuse of false advertising? I feel absolutely cheated.. you own a full refund to all buyers and a formal apology to everyone. Calling it a typo is just the cherry on top.
DO NOT BURN POM ANYTHING.
Polyoxymethylene can produce formaldehyde, a serious toxic gas that can cause anything from mild irritation to burning in your eyes and nose. This is a very dangerous thing to recommend, even when you say to do it outdoors.
He has since edited it to say that it was a "joke." Not the time for a joke when your company is SEVERELY fucking up, bud.
Wow very nice, false advertising and suggesting some stupid solution, and that’s from a CPO, well done Drop.
Yes, this absolutely was not a typo. Nyllon is a typo. If POM really had nothing to do with this product then why on earth would they hit the keys "P" "O" and "M" in order on the product description? Why would they paint the housings to look like POM?
Drop, or Will, absolutely knew that POM was considered desirable to this community and I do not believe for a second that they were unaware of the materials being used to make the switches they commissioned.
Wouldn’t the sales numbers around the POM Holy Panda drop be enough to warrant this?
This is absolutely ridiculous how do I request my refund on these switches, that are obviously falsely advertised
After multiple test and looking at others experience on reddit, I can say these are worse in every way. They’re more scratchy, less tactile, and there’s more spring ping.
Crazy! But some Drop employee who obviously wants to make his company look better posted that there is almost no difference! Who do i believe???
That joke was in very poor taste Will, seeing as how you as a company really dropped the ball here. People are right to be angry.
'we don't refund vat'
So what you're saying is you lied about your product, *twice*
2 'housings made of pom'
and you won't be issuing full refunds? As in: a customer will have spend 100 dollars with you, returned due to the false advertising, and you refund them less than 100 dollars?
or am I misunderstanding the not refuding vat statement?
It's like you're asking for your company to burn, smells like a class action lawsuit to me...
It is your mistake, it is on you to pay for return shipping, import fees, tax and fully refund your customers.
Will you be lowering the price given the lower quality materials?
Seeing as this is creating a very negative impact on Drop in the mech community, will you guys make this right by sending out new housings?
A respectable company would let the customer keep the wrong product and send out a new one free of cost.
The feeling of switches is subjective. I am not particularly sensitive to scratchiness, spring crunch, and ping. To me, the difference is negligible. I don't think I could tell them apart blind under normal usage conditions. Maybe you can. I didn't say there wasn't a difference. You are welcome chime in with your opinion. The point is that it's a slightly different experience for different people. That said, I don't appreciate you accusing me of ill-intent. I offered my honest opinion of the switches, whether or not you believe it.
Personally I owned the Invyr drop HP, “POM” V1 and V2, and I can confirm they are getting worst everytime. V2 being most scratchy (near unlube creams level and some with insane pings.
V1 housing is somewhat fragile and will break if you apply to much force pulling it out.
For Invyr x Drop HP, it’s worse compared with my friends yok pandas (smoothness).
I regret building it on my keycult now.
You lost all of our trust. It’s not only an issue of scamming people out of switches they wanted, now we have to remove them from our $600+ boards. I thought I had built my dream board but that was a lie. And deep down I knew it was because even after lubing them, they still felt scratchy and I blamed it on myself or maybe the fact that my expectation were too high. When in reality there was something off. Also they were advertised as un lubed. There was definitely lube on at least half of them when I was lubing them myself.
I mean, shouldn't there be sufficient interest built into the number of switches you've sold? The POM housing was the selling point for me, granted that is anecdotal. I'd suggest taking note of the % of returns based on this and take that as a decent metric. Though, I wouldn't expect a portion of those returns as returning customers, either.
So what do I do from here? This is my first experience/purchase with Drop and it's not looking bright. I even bought the fake Yasha keycap that went around. Now I have two falsely advertised/fake products coming my way. Hopefully nothing happens with the Oblivion Keycaps I ordered.
Im genuinely curious on what the communication issue was when very clearly, this drop was supposed to be made of POM. I've tried to be reasonable and take most of drop's other controversies for your word, but damn does this look like "ask for forgiveness, not permission".
Were you seriously expecting us to burn plastic, which is nylon no less knowing that it's much harder to burn than POM and accompanied with the danger to your customers' health ? Lmao.
Tasteless joke, no less. I think someone already reported these blatant false advertising (fake housing material and "unlubed") to the authorities. Good on them.
For anyone who cares about these guys' fuckups on Holy Panda, here's the list:
- Had the audacity to open the first run of the group buy at the same time / earlier than BSUN group buy out of nowhere, in order to steal some potential customers from BSUN GB when the latter already had proof of their product while Drop only had their claim of being able to produce Holy Panda but no proof / samples at the time
- Sending the original (OG) Holy Panda to a reviewer (who invented the concept of Holy Panda in the first place) and claiming (i.e. lying) that those were the samples of Drop Holy Panda instead. Later backpedalling and said those were just "proof of concept" ==> Worst mistake Drop have ever made
- Delivering to 2nd batch customers rather than to 1st batch who ordered in February, which is much earlier
- False advertising about housing material
- False advertising about these being unlubed
@will Why in the hell did it take you 6 months to own up to the fact that these are not pom? Clearly you guys knew before and chose not to disclose so it didn't impact sales. Absolutely disgusting tactics all around from this group buy.
i DoNt SeE wHy PeOpLe ArE sO uPsEt
Are you serious? Trying to save on return shipping cost? What kind of moron advise people to burn plastic so we can inhale all the toxic fumes? Yeah sure really funny joke.
Oh wow, they did us a solid for offering a full refund. Even though, they falsely advertised their product. This could get them a lawsuit where I'm from. In fact, I hope they would get sued.
Why they are upset about the joke of burning them, but okay, take it out of context.
is it possible to get a partial refund? I thought getting hps made of pom was pretty neat, I still intend to go through with the order as I want the product and 3pin switches saves me the trouble of cutting 5pins down. But still misled and the product isn't what was originally described when I purchased...
If these were never, ever going to be made with POM housings, why would anyone type the letters "P" "O" and "M" in that order on the product description page? Further, why then go on to describe the (desirable) properties of the material? What purpose could that serve?
LOL i did you the favor of including context in the screenshot, im pretty sure a normal sympathetic person would have no problem understanding why people are upset over the co-founder of the company making an unwarranted joke after being called out from a mechkeys community member that went through the effort to call out a shady company's shady practices through a burn test video. if you cant see why people are upset about a joke from the top when they're already furious after being lied to... *shrug* (:
Again, it was miscommunicated to us that they were POM. We should have done our due diligence to make sure that was true, but it was never a case of selling them as POM with the knowledge that they were not.
You are a joke. You not only advertise falsely, but have an attitude and unprofessional policies when you get caught. I will never buy anything from Drop again. You deserve to be fired, but Drop is so inept that I know that will not happen. You are frauds.
It was an honest mistake (HPs not being POM), but people who are convinced that we are out to screw the community won't change their minds regardless of how apologetic or how truthful we actually are. If a small joke is too much, then I don't know what to tell ya.
The manufacturer Drop engaged to produce these switches volunteered that they could make the housings from POM and then didn't? Or, did Drop ask if they could be made from POM?
The former. We never requested a material change, but rather were simply notified of it and we took them at their word.
False advertisement is false advertisement. You are dealing with a serious matter right now. Tossing joke around is very bad choice and it was a shitty joke no less. Offering a full refund meaning that the customers are entitled for 100% of what been taken out of their bank account not minus VAT. Own it up to your customers so may be a lawsuit is not heading your way.
So... what's the difference, will I even notice? I want to at least give these switches a try before writing them off. Does anyone actually know?
this community is full of adults willing to pay for their hobby, that expect to be dealing with other adults in the vendor market that can be professional when they seriously let down their paying customers. the outrage wouldn't be this bad if the response you guys gave wasnt so horrendous. "burn em" "ship em back, but you're burdened with the cost of VAT and your wasted time and effort and etc, for our mistake sozsoz<3" people don't need jokes right now, they need solutions to the immutable fact (regardless of your insistence this was an "honest mistake") that in the end, people were told they were getting something, and then those people found out THEMSELVES it wasn't what you told them it was, and then you don't provide a considerate, sympathetic, urgent response to those people. but if dealing with rightfully angry customers is too much, then i don't know what to tell ya.
lol are our comments being deleted? very nice work dudes
((((((: "everything is fine and we're all very satisfied with drop's customer service and product management!"
you are the man! i posted that and it was deleted immediately, tried to post a picture of me being notified that comment was deleted and that wont post either
Nope, nothing's been deleted. Your comments still show up under your profile. Just issues with the site.
are you serious? that's not true at all. The feel and sound of the switch is way different.
Why is it this is only now being addressed instead of months ago? How long has it been known that these aren't going to be POM?
This has to be the saltiest joke i ever seen, still mad that a little burn test exposed you?
wow.... just wow. That's one hell of a miscommunication. So not only is it prelubed in weird places from the factory, its ALSO not pom.
I think ... you guys really need to consider giving the people who backed this something, cos a refund can't be easily done.
Can you honestly say this is an appropriate time for jokes? Such a horribly tactless joke? Burning plastics is terrible for people and the environment. Only someone laughing in the faces of their consumers would think this is a joke. Its not even an unfunny joke. A funnier joke is how much this is going to cost Drop.
We are selling apples to you, promoted how great these apples are. Received oranges, and a bad one at it (don't even try to cover the part about no factory lube) okay. It does have lube kinda like all over. U can put it in your mouth to prove if there isn't any.
All that can be summarized is one big MISCOMMUNICATION. So question here is were Drop lied upon or is Drop lying to us. International buyer should at least received partial refund for this. This should be your duty and customer service.
No. You blew it. I ordered February 4th and received my switches on August 6th. How is that acceptable to you? ..because you fed me a $10 off coupon. What garbage. Furthermore, they are lubed. Now they aren't even made of the correct plastic? If you would kindly supply the fuel, a safe place for burning, some ppe, a fire extinguisher and probably a lawyer (since lighting a fire in the street isnt legal in my county), I'll commence burning. All the while you mock us with jokes. I hope Drop suffers from this mistreatment and exploitation of its customers.
Absolutely disgusting response and unprofessional way of handling this situation, not to mention the terrible business practices (first I hear about the "BOB" artisan fakes and now this). I've never bought mech stuff from Drop but had considered getting these (I have purchased audio stuff and a few other things). I 1000% will never purchase any product from Drop ever again, under any product category, and would encourage everyone to do the same until they learn to 1) treat the customers they've wronged with respect and issue full refunds along with a public apology and 2) earn back the trust of the community by preventing these incidents in the future (maybe try some quality checks in the future to ensure what your marketing lines up with reality).
The response from the community wouldn't be nearly as bad if Drop handled this with a fraction of the professionalism that is expected of a good customer support department.
Would partial refunds at least be possible? I ordered 3x boxes totalling to USD 210. It's quite a significant amount for me, and not receiving the intended product really disappoints.
Listen, you have made a mistake, mistakes happen, please help us the community and just send us a replacement or the housing as they were suggested or even a full refund. I'm from the middle east and I won't send them back because I need to pay 17% vat in my country and the shipping will cost the same as the product price.
The bad reputation that you create yourself will make the MK community to abandon you, maybe the cost of sending replacements will be high and you will loose money in the short term but at least you will fix the problem and people will gain their trust back and in the long term you won't loose that much money because you won't loose as much customers as right now.
I can tell you that if I won't get one of the above I could not trust you as a company in the future and won't be willing to spend my money here.
Please fix this for community, for your reputation and for the long term profit of your company.
Ppl are upset about your false advertising, and your “CPO” came here not suggesting solution but joking around how to poison your customers.
And you don’t see why ppl is angry.
WOW, now I see why drop have no guilt in false advertising, they are devil themselves.
offering a full refund is not doing you a solid, it is the minimum expected requirement from them.
*and they're not even doing that* ;)
they're not offering full refunds
Then that’s your problem, not ours, we trusted you for the product, we didn’t and cannot directly buy them from the factory, no?
It’s your responsibility to deliver the correct goods in our hand, and the switch is branded “Drop” btw.
> "We'll explore a POM switch if there's sufficient interest"
Oh that's easy, you can gauge the interest by counting how many people are asking for a refund due to being lied to. I don't think most of the same people will be willing to purchase anything from you anymore though :p
Just buy yok pandas if you want 0 dramas and a smoother HP
Yok Pandas are linear switches. You need a Halo stem to make it a Holy Panda.
apparently not lowering the price, just drop's standards.
could you recommend good replacement springs for these switches?
Thank you Captain After-The-Fact
I asked the support a full refund because I wasn't expecting nylon HPs at all. And they said that they will refund me ONLY when I ship switches with a pre-paid return label since I live in the states? I have already soldered switches to a PCB. lol. So you guys want me to desolder the switches, re-pack and drop off the box at UPS or Fedex? My mistake was to believe that DROP is a trustworthy vendor.
> The former. We never requested
> a material change, but rather
> were simply notified of it and
> we took them at their word
Not to be a jerk, but that sounds like a "you" problem, not a "me" problem. You guys advertised one thing and then didn't do your due diligence. You should be shipping people what they paid for.
they're the exact same im pretty sure
OK, thank you for your info. Do you know why Will called it a typo when it was a manufacturing error?
Placed my order back at the beginning of June and had to cancel it. I was fine with the late shipping, every group buy I’ve ever done has been late so that wasn’t a big deal. What I couldn’t stomach was the fact that the product is basically nothing like it was advertised. No POM housing and factory lubed. Both of those things were big selling points for me when it came to this switch. The fact that these switches basically are nothing like what Drop promised is the main reason I will never be ordering from you guys again.
Very disappointed with this...
All in all, I just would like to ask what will be done for the buyers:
- False advertising (Why claim they're unlubed when they are? Why claim that you have the POM ver. when you don't?)
- The response (claiming it is not "false advertising"? Telling the buyers to burn their switches?)
I am considering cancelling my order based on what are your plans to correct this mistake, instead of trying to play the blame game with your supplier. This was my first order from Drop (just to try out these switches) and damn what a disappointment. I'm lucky I hesitated on buying other stuff under Drop's keyboard/audio community. I don't plan on supporting scammers and their scummy practices.
- For the buyers whose "Holy Pandas" have yet to be shipped, will the switch housings be corrected to be POM?
- For the buyers whose "Holy Pandas" are already shipped, how will they be re-compensated?
Well this aint good! Kind of par for the course for drop these days though.....its pretty unfortunate that i've gone through a few purchases over about a year and a half and experienced nothing but miscommunication or flat out no communication.
The only way I've ever got any real answers from Drop is with a Paypal claim. File a claim and Paypal will get a real response from them. Shouldn't have to be this way, but it's the only method that has work.
Because it was already brought up in the other subthread dated August 15, 2020 (Will posted on August 20) that the burning of POM (stem material) released formaldehyde. It also doesn't help to joke to require burning of switches —the switches that were advertised to be made up of POM housing but is actually made up of a self-extinguishing plastic— as a requirement for a refund.
Is BSUN the manufacturer of the Drop Holy Pandas or are they being produced through a different manufacturer?
Thanks, I'll give these a chance, they have to be better than mx blues
there is no war in ba sing se
so is drop just going to ignore us all and hope we go away?
bro they dont care man. Their support sucks. I still havent received my CTRL high profile when it was scheduled to ship on july 20th. Theyve pushed back the date so many times and only given me the option to get a full refund. They cant even be like you know what its our fault how about we make it up to you by shipping you the keyboards express due to the inconvenience. Instead they gave me a $10 credit to use in their website. Im definitely cancelling this order. This company is ridiculous. I just want my keyboard and im done with this company.
You don't refund VAT after false advertising? That's something between you and the government... I'll recomend everyone to file a fraud complain and wait for the results.
Maybe... as you are "not aprticularly sensitive to scratchiness, spring crunch, and ping", and you are AT HE SAME TIME an employee, you just need to keep you opinion for yourself.