Drop + Sennheiser HD 8XX Headphones Discussions | Drop

Sep 16, 2021

Hey everyone, Just wanted to let you all know that the bulk shipment of HD8XX's are scheduled to arrive at our warehouse tomorrow, Friday Sept 17th. Upon arrival our team will work quickly to receive, repack, and ship all individual units as quickly as possible. We're hoping to get all pre-orders shipped out by early next week, and in-stock sales will start shortly after that. We have heard the comments and concerns revolving around a couple recent reviews of the HD8XX, but our internal and community tuning team is happy with the state of the headphone and the way it sounds. We know impressions are important to the community when making purchasing decisions and actively encourage youtubers, bloggers, etc. to write honest opinions about how our products sound to their own ears. Preferences are subjective and we expect to get a range of opinions. We look forward to hearing your own in the coming days. And lastly, just a quick final reminder that all HD8XX purchases are covered by our 30-day hassle free return policy. If you're unhappy for whatever reason then you can return your headphones within 30 days of receiving it for a refund so long as there isn't any physical damage to the headphones. Update: it's 4:30PM EST on Friday the 17th and our the Sennheiser delivery has not arrived at our warehouse yet. It's looking unlikely that it'll come today, and they're probably going to reschedule for Monday. I will provide more updates as we get them. We're very disappointed since we had extra warehouse staff booked to come in on the weekend to get these turned around. Update 2 : it's 9:00PM on Monday the 20th and we just sent the warehouse staff home about an hour ago, with no inbound delivery. We've been trying to get a hold of Senn and the trucking company to find out why they've missed two delivery appointments. Sennheiser makes deliveries to us at least once a month (HD6xx, 58x, PC38x, etc.) so this is very unusual for them. We're working hard to get to the bottom of it. In the meantime we've upgraded all US based shipments to UPS ground (from smartpost), so that'll save 2-6 days of shipping time to you as soon as we get these packed and into the system. Check for more updates tomorrow. Update 3: It's Noon on Tuesday the 21st and the truck arrived and they're unloading the pallets now. Everything has to be unloaded, unpacked, counted, and then they'll start shipping. Hoping that at least some of the units get out this afternoon, but can't make any promises yet. Will post another update in a couple hours assuming I get new info. Update 4: It's 4PM EST on Tuesday the 21st, they're still unpacking and counting everything. Unclear if anything will get packed and shipped today but tracking numbers will definitely start going out tomorrow at the latest. Update 5: It's 6PM EST on Tuesday the 21st, about 100 units have shipped, and they're still working at it. We'll see how much can get done tonight before everyone goes home. Update 6: Its 9PM, looks like 300 orders are done. The rest should be complete tomorrow. Update 7: It's 8AM, we're at 450 shipped now. (Edited for clarity)

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EvWags

Sep 16, 2021

KevinHad you made a similar effort to communicate I may have kept my order. Your communication (or lack of it until this late moment) could not have been worse. Because of that you lost my purchase and apparently more than 100 others.

Sep 16, 2021

KevinWhere is a new tuning graph? Please? Or you want to ship worldwide, even without providing any numbers? Because the personal opinion can be varied, but numbers never lie. I trust more DMS in this situation, because he has provided a graph. Where is your's? Here is DMS graph: This 2kHz deep is terrible

(Edited)

Sep 16, 2021

kimdeugThe tuning graph posted on July 20th by Will is the final tuning graph. It is also the same graph that is on our main page.

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GCE1701D

Sep 16, 2021

kimdeugI could be wrong, but I thought the current/new tuning graphs were in Will's last stickied post from July? (to your point, idk if they replaced the ones on the overview page with the 'new'/updated one(s) or not, but I was pretty sure the ones in Will's July sticky were supposed to be the newly reflected)

Sep 16, 2021

KevinIt looks completely different from DMS graph. And I more trust him, because he is not interested to sell HD8XX with bad tuning :((

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CattersonDynamics

Sep 16, 2021

KevinReading this, now I'm really glad I've cancelled my preorder. Just gonna reiterate what you said: "While we didn't address the concerns initially and we've had trustworthy reviewers say these are bad solely due to our new tuning that we changed last minute, WE think they sound good so we're not changing anything and rushing them out 3 months early before more preorders are dropped." Talk about tone deaf, tuning and this response to the community.

EvWags

Sep 16, 2021

CattersonDynamicsAnd a totally incoherent statement too! This company is a mess. "Tone deaf" is a very accurate description. I hadn't realized that when I placed my order way back just after the initial announcement.

Sep 16, 2021

CattersonDynamicsBingo!!!!! Exactly What I am feeling now. Can not be written better.

DROPNEVERSHIPONTIME

Sep 16, 2021

Kevinx

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Sep 16, 2021

CattersonDynamicsI have placed your brilliant reiterated version on Head-fi forum, under the HD8XX discussion thread. Of cause with your permission. Regards, Kim

DROPNEVERSHIPONTIME

Sep 16, 2021

kimdeugAs the user who made that thread (before I asked head-fi to nuke my account) I approve.

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CattersonDynamics

Sep 16, 2021

kimdeugnot sure if you needed it but you have my permission

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tyllsdaughter

Sep 16, 2021

KevinPrepare to get returns.

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Musicseeker

Sep 16, 2021

KevinHi Kevin. Appreciate your input. Lots of what you said is true. However, when so many customers pre-order something from you and you changed its specification dramatically, the least you can do, as a simple courtesy to those who spend $1100 dollars and waited painstakingly for something they love, is to send them a courtesy e-mail letting them know that there is some change to the product they pre-ordered. You can not make assumption that they will like it just because you liked it. Sincerely.

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Sense

118

Sep 16, 2021

KevinHi Kevin, Thank you for giving us an update. If you guys ever release a differently tuned version of the 8XX (HD8XXs? :) ) that matches the original drop tuning or even improves on it without the mid scoop…I would still be interested. Hope everyone who ordered enjoys their cans!

DYC1

Sep 16, 2021

MusicseekerBait and switch 101

GCE1701D

Sep 16, 2021

CattersonDynamicsTo play devil's advocate, First they said it was shipping early and they'd changed the tuning at the same time. Then that It'd be shipping to reviewers, at that point, the preorders actually jumped quite a bit after stagnating for months. Then the negative reviews hit that caused the dramatic last few weeks that then caused orders to crater. Now, There is a very valid point that they could have, and probably should have sent out some kind of product update, or 'story update' if they wanted to put spin on it, or something saying there was a pre-production modification or change or what-have you. Also, or posterity, found this waaaaayyyy early in the discussion posts, there's always been a 1-2k region dip looks like (but yes, it's bigger/different now)

kayaka

Sep 17, 2021

GCE1701DThe history of preorders for the 8XX resembles that frequency response chart in some ways ;-)

Daniel_Lagoe

Sep 17, 2021

GCE1701DDam, that frequency response looks so much better. haha

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iamjamestl

112

Sep 17, 2021

KevinThanks for the update. Really looking forward to these! Wish the community weren't so toxic.

Sep 17, 2021

kimdeugHaving measured this headphone myself, does anyone know (a) what was used to measure the headphones in this DMS3TV measurement, and (b) what compensation was applied? This is important information. Also, I've seen crinacle's measurement in this discussion, which, in terms of the shape of curves certainly seems more like what I'd expect to see (versus the compensated DMS3TV measurement above), but still raises another question: Is it indicated anywhere how crinacle arrived at the normalization point of his comparison (and for which his suggested EQ settings are derived)?

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Sep 17, 2021

Jude_MNot sure about DMS and Crinacle testing gears, but sound demo was quite informative to make a rough impression about detalisation, muffleness, "coridor sound", "mad blotted bass", etc I have posted both demo links, slightly below this topic. PS. Have Attached Drop, Crinacle and DMS graphs in one place for better visualisation + Harman curve. You can see the similarity on DMS and Crinacle graphs. (vertical scale is bit different, but numbers +/- similar. DMS: drop from 84 to 73 =11 dB, Crinacle from 99 to 88 =11 dB or with compensations you can see the multiple grey graphics.

(Edited)

Sep 17, 2021

kimdeugThank you, @kimdeug. I just don't know what to make of that DMS3TV measurement -- to me, that measurement raises more questions than it answers (starting with the questions I asked in my previous post). What fixture is used and what compensation is used is immensely important to know. I'll watch the video (I see the URL in the graph) and see if he offers any specifics. As for crinacle's graph, I thought I saw one in this discussion that showed the 8XX plotted with the 800S, from which EQ settings were derived. I'll search this discussion (there's a lot of discussion here it seems), but perhaps I saw it elsewhere. I'll check his site. Again, this question is also very important. If one is going to derive EQ settings from the comparison of the two measurements then it's critically important to understand the basis for how he chose to normalize the two plots. As for normalizing, I discuss some relevant points about it in this post on Head-Fi: https://www.head-fi.org/threads/meze-audio-elite-the-new-isodynamic-hybrid-array-headphone-official-thread.959445/post-16548509

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LifelongCaboose

598

Sep 17, 2021

Jude_MDMS uses a Chinese Gras clone. I have a very similar one. Crins old rig also uses something very similar (minidsp pinna though). Other reviewers like Antdroid also uses something similar. You can find many on Aliexpress so without a direct link from him to show the exact listing he bought from it's hard to say the exact unit he has. You can also find the Pinna he has on Aliexpress many sellers sell the same one. Its biggest issues are how stiff it is and how the measurements turn out over 3kish. But like most people who use these Clone Rigs they use a custom-made compensation to make it look closer to a Gras rig over 3k. But it won't ever be perfect. But at less than a few hundred bucks it can be really useful to a reviewer. But at least for me whenever I post a measurement with mine I make sure to add a disclaimer about it as it's far from perfect. In general, the measurements taken with them have some funky behaviour, with the compensation its really just trying to get something with a similar shape to a Gras rig, so people who are familiar with graphs from those rigs can at least somewhat understand it and you can use data points made for Gras rigs. I also don't think he talked about how he positioned the HD8xx when measuring it. In my testing of the HD8xx I was able to get some big changes in FR with placement changes. (I hope I remembered to mention that in my review) Also if I'm not mistaken he will be switching to a BK rig soon. I'd be happy to answer any questions about these clone rigs and my experience with them if you need, id love to be able to offer any help I can. But as for how he uses them I can only speculate based on what I know and my experience with them.

Sep 17, 2021

Jude_MThe graphs are only half of the deal, most of the people who preodered HD8XX even can not read this figures. The biggest impression for me was a demo video. Even assuming youtube compression and other factors, just listening 800 and 8XX -it was something wrong with 8XX. I have listen this demo via my HD800S on Topping A90 and THX789 may be 30 times. And after decided to cancel my order.

(Edited)

Sep 17, 2021

kimdeug @kimdeug, it seems to me (having now watched the video) that much of his concern is driven by the appearance of the measurement -- what he's describing as an 11 dB drop. When the measurement is bothering him that much, might it have an influence on his impressions? Having measured the 8XX on a 60318-4 rig myself (GRAS 45CA, anthropometric pinnae), it seems to me that whatever compensation he's applying is what's giving that graph a particularly dramatic appearance, especially in the area of it he's emphasizing. (Our 45CA setup has the RA0401 simulators in it, identical to the coupler inside crinacle's setup, but externally polarized. However, our fixture setup is somewhat different -- 45CA versus 43AG with a DIY head-mount.) Between DMS3TV's measurement and crinacle's, I'd definitely recommend you look more at crinacle's. However, there's still the question of how crinacle matched them up on the graph (the graph in which he compares it to the HD800S).

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Sep 17, 2021

LifelongCabooseThank you very much for the info, @LifelongCaboose. The compensation on DMS3TV's graph looks like it could be diffuse field, or some variation of it. If it's DF, which DF compensation is he using? I can't imagine there's a DF measurement specific to that particular setup. Is it perhaps the DF values from ITU-T P.58? (I think those may be from a Brüel & Kjær 4128, but I'm not sure -- I can compare the dimensions in the standard and the 4128's dimensions later.) Whatever compensation is being used for the graph in the video it's definitely not getting him anywhere near the shape of either GRAS rig I've now seen this headphone measured on (crinacle's 43AG with DIY head setup or our GRAS 45CA). If the 711 clone in question is 711-ish, its uncompensated output should look more like crinacle's. And as I said in my response to @kimdeug immediately above, I suspect it's the application of that compensation that's giving his measurement(s) the more dramatic shape.

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LifelongCaboose

598

Sep 18, 2021

Jude_MI'm not sure sadly, diffuse field looks right but is unlikely based on what he likes. I'd say it's more likely Resolves Harman Combined or Crins IEF Neutral target. I'm going to assume whatever compensation he's using is what was made for the Gras 43ag. As that is how most of the community who uses these rigs end up tuning the rig to measure like. Most even end up just using the same targets Crin uses. So something from him may be the answer. I know these rigs in general need to be calibrated a fair bit over 3k to get them close to a 711 rigs raw measurements. You can look at my review on here for my graph that uses a very similar rig but with no compensation/calibration whatsoever, not even to get it closer to a Gras raw response. Just the Raw response of the 711 clone with the aliexpress pinna. I'm not sure if that will give you any insight but it might. That is what I assume his raw graph would also look like, before he adds the Gras calibration and then the Target compensation he's using as well. But because it's highly likely this clone rig is different from mine, there no info on if he compensated the rig at all to make the raw graph look closer to a standard (which I'm 99% sure he did) or even what "compensation" after all that he's using. The graph ends up being semi-useless outside of comparing it to the HD800 measurement in said graph. Edit: In some of his other videos like the "Aeon NOIRE VS Aeon 2 Closed" he 100% posts raw measurements of both headphones. That would be worth looking at to see if the difference is purely the rig or just the compensation seen in the HD8xx graph. Also here is his video explaining a bit about the Rig (I missed it and haven't watched it yet, this may hold all the answers lol). https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v6by0NDAe5g My review and graph: https://drop.com/buy/drop-sennheiser-hd-8xx-headphones/talk/2837911?utm_source=linkshare Not sure if any of this comment is helpful.

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Sep 18, 2021

Jude_MHey Jude_M. I can see where these debates about graphs will go soon. And for majority of the people it is not important all this numbers and curves, because this hobby is for fun and pleasure. Only the personal ears will do the final judgment for each person individually. So, as you have HD8XX and testing rig, instead of measurements can you do ABC test video like Crinacle did HD800 VS800S vs8XX , and upload it on youtube. I think for the most of us it will be more informative than graphs or article how deep was 2kHz scoop. Please, make a demo video (sooner later someone will do), and let people to decide like it (8XX) or not. Regards, Kim

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Sep 18, 2021

kimdeug @kimdeug, you say this... "I can see where these debates about graphs will go soon. And for majority of the people it is not important all this numbers and curves, because this hobby is for fun and pleasure. Only the personal ears will do the final judgment for each person individually." ...but I actually disagree. I'm actually giving a video seminar presentation at the upcoming HBK (Hottinger Brüel & Kjær) Electroacoustic Conference titled "Audio Measurements As Consumer Content" and will discuss this very topic. Today, measurements have a huge effect on the reviews and impressions of audio gear. Huge. When a new thread is posted about a headphone, how many posts does it take before someone is requesting measurements? After measurements are posted, how impactful are those measurements on the perception of the products? I think it's quite clear in this discussion the measurements have had a very big effect. Looking at crinacle's review, he recommends EQ settings derived from his comparison graphs, saying: ---------- It’s fairly easy to visualise the differences between the two on FR, considering that both headphones have the same housing and drivers just with tweaked tuning.

And for those who already own a HD800S, here’s an EQ profile for you to “taste test” the HD8XX:

Low shelf: 40Hz +5.0dB

Peak: 350Hz +3.0dB, 0.2Q

Peak: 700Hz +2.0dB, 1.0Q

Peak: 1,550Hz -7.3dB, 0.8Q

Peak: 5,800Hz -3.5dB, 10.0Q

---------- That more than suggests that if you EQ the HD800S using those settings, you'll hear a close approximation of the HD8XX. That's one of the reasons I'm asking if anyone knows how crinacle decides where to normalize the two, especially if EQ settings are going to be derived from them. Did he use the same voltage used to drive one to drive the other? Did he arbitrarily pick what looks like ≈900 Hz? For the most recent measurement I made for the 8XX that Drop posted, we chose from several different normalization options I provided them with (which I'll get back to shortly). Also, they wanted the unit with final voicing to be measured on the 45CA (60318-4) so that it could be compared to the Harman Target, if they so chose -- but also to have measurements that were perhaps more comparable to the other measurements likely to come out, since maybe only a couple of reviewers out there have the Brüel & Kjær 5128 that has become our primary measurement fixture. That's why we went with the 45CA. Getting back to normalizing the measurements (HD8XX and HD800S): Again, I gave Drop several different comparisons normalized at different frequencies, the idea being to choose something that sounded most like what we were hearing. We ended up mutually choosing the comparison normalized at 1.5 kHz -- that comparison also happened to compare somewhat closely with the internal development measurements from Sennheiser. But even I have some misgivings doing this (choosing which frequency to normalize at), as it's still a choice based on what we felt was the closest (of the options I provided) to what we were hearing. Something we've been testing for a while is setting our voltage levels (into the headphone) using white noise, rather than just choosing a single frequency to do that with (as is customary). I've presented this to one of my friends at Audio Precision, as well as to Head Acoustics when they recently visited, to see what they thought of the idea. Head Acoustics even compared white-noise-set comparisons (the way we're now doing them) to music-material-set levels, and found they were comparable, which was nice to see. For more on normalizing, and what we're doing, please read this post I made on Head-Fi: https://www.head-fi.org/threads/meze-audio-elite-the-new-isodynamic-hybrid-array-headphone-official-thread.959445/post-16548509 So, in the interest of this discussion, since I didn't have any noise-level-set measurements with the HD8XX, I did a comparison between the headphones that way, and here's what I got (keeping in mind this is just one seating, but it's close enough to our averaged non-noise seating that I'm comfortable with it):

Again, while this is just one seating, I'm comfortable with it as a representative seating (one I'd include in the eventual noise-set average for the HD8XX). When we post frequency response measurements (unless otherwise noted as above), we always use multi-seat averages. How did our previous 1.5 kHz normalizing do compared to this? Well, as you can see, we were a bit off, but closer than any of the other measurement comparisons I've seen so far. As it turns out, the point at which they cross here is around 1.272 kHz -- so, again we were off a bit, but our 1.5 kHz comparison was still the closest of the normalized options I gave Drop, and, again, the closest of any of the measurement comparisons I've seen so far. Now, if you take that noise-set measurement above -- which, to be clear, is completely unnormalized -- imagine dropping 7.3 dB at 1.555 kHz (where they're perhaps less than one decibel apart in the measurement above), or dropping 3.5 dB at 5.8 kHz (where they're essentially equal). Again, @kimdeug, I respectfully (but vehemently) disagree with you. Measurements shape perception in the audio hobby perhaps more than ever before.

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Sep 18, 2021

kimdeugKeep in mind that the YouTube demo was probably recorded with the same measurement microphones that made the graphs. Impressions formed from headphone demo recordings is very misleading, because you’re getting the filtering effect of the test rigs ears plus your own ears, headphones, gear, compression, etc. Not only can a perception bias be made that a tuning reached a point of “too much” or “too little” based on a demo that is inherently flawed, it may also exaggerate the contrast between the two models due to resonant effects, so they’re not even useful as comparisons. Don’t trust YouTube recording demos, ever, not even if they were done on Jude’s extremely expensive rig (and I’m sure @Jude_M would agree here). I don’t feel that the HD 8XX is “better” than the HD 800S, but it is an option with more bass and lower cost like many people asked for. It is a fairly v-shaped headphone, but if I was looking at graphs, it’s worth considering how much graphs vary on different rigs. Apparently, Sennheiser also provided Drop with measurements data per-headphone, but it’s up to them what to do with it.

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Sep 18, 2021

Jude_MThank You Jude_M for very detailed reply. Highly appreciate your knowledges in this area. As an headphone enthusiast I do a lot of modding and tuning to satisfy my personal taste. I only use my ears and another headphone as reference before tuning and after. Always want to build my own measurement rig. looks like you are the best person to ask about it. Will keep in touch with you as I have a lot of questions. Regards. Kim

Sep 18, 2021

EvshrugThank you Evshrug for reply. I have watched your review of HD8XX, so have an idea about your opinion regarding to 8XX. Very politically correct and neutral review. As I was mentioned above, I new where this conversation will go soon. And my brain can not accept the fact that 8XX sounds good, because someone has a better testing equipment. In opposite, I new DMS since he started his channel. Back in the day we had couple discussions regarding to tuning Monprice 1070C , and I was surprise how deep he goes with his research. This trust was built from practice and time. Lets forget about graphs, youtube sound compression and all technical aspects. Just simple question: Why DMS and Crinacle do not like HD8XX? I would like to hear 8XX by my self and make my own opinion. But I am in New Zealand and 30 days free return is only available in US. Adding a local Tax and return shipment fee, it is a very expensive option for me. That is why my opinion can be only relay on graphs and sound demo. In sound demo I was more concentrated not on how accurate was sound reproduction, but mostly on difference between HD800 and 8XX. Regards, Kim

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crinacle

Sep 18, 2021

Jude_MHey @Jude_M, crinacle here. Some clarifications on the normalisations used in my articles: I do show some graph comparisons using my graph comparison tool which defaults to equal loudness normalisation. The way this is done is documented in the GitHub of the comparison tool, as follows: "CrinGraph weights graphs using the ISO 226:2003 loudness standard (with linear rather than cubic interpolation, since it has little effect on the average) with free field compensation (which most closely matches the conditions in which that standard was measured) to convert from speakers to IEMs. The flat bass response of the free field compensation is set to -7 dB to produce a graph which looks visually centered around the target loudness, and because it approximately normalizes the free field itself to 0dB at 1kHz." But while this is the default setting of the comparison tool, users are free to select any normalisation point they wish (selectable by frequency/x-axis instead of loudness as well). Do try it out yourself. I'm not forcing loudness normalisation on anybody. As for the EQ setting that I've made, here is the HD800S's response after EQ which matches up with the HD8XX very well with only 5 filters.

Users are free to adjust pre-amp gain to match loudness however they wish. In an earlier unboxing post I had also provided a normalised graph that attempts to match at frequencies above 8kHz which would be similar to your posted measurements. Graph below:

Hope that clarifies any doubts. @Evshrug I wish the GRAS 43AG-7 costs as much as my Neumann microphone. Your condescension regarding my work and effort in the measurement space is not appreciated.

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Sep 18, 2021

kimdeugWoah, I realized I made a typing mistake, and I specifically wanted to call it out: I meant to type “I don’t feel that the HD 8XX is ‘better’ than the HD 800S, but it is an option with more bass and lower cost like many people asked for.” Seriously, without the “don’t” at the beginning, it messed up that I was trying to say about personal preference. A distinction worth clarifying, my apologies. @crinacle I thought you made the listening demo with a set of DSPmini-ears, so my apologies to you there. Condescending of you is not my intent… it wasn’t a judgement of your financial means. However, your graphs are not the focus of my point. Maybe you should consider it more of a hot take: playback recorded demos of headphones on YouTube are so misrepresentative of actual products that they shouldn’t be published. Why? Even with an $80k measurement rig or whatever, there are too many things that influence and change the sound, including a set of artificial ears before going through the real set of ears on the individual listener. Each ear has its own “frequency response” filter adding peaks and valleys on the final perceived tuning, yes? Viewer conclusions may be off; the differences between headphones may be over or under exaggerated at different points due to a double-dose of head-transfer related functions, plus the frequency response of whatever headphone is used by the listener, as far as I am aware of the technique. As far as I am aware, you rarely choose to make recorded headphone demos, probably for this reason. If all the challenges of recording headphone demos have been overcome, I would welcome the education and consider changing my personal stance. I wish it was so easy and objective to digitally share the experience of listening to a headphone, but that’s just the way things are. It’s exactly this fact that makes reviews so vital. Some people will enjoy this headphone; I think your review will help some people, who don’t want a bass-emphasized headphone variant, to avoid disappointment. I respect that you try to describe the listening experience of headphones to your viewers, and that you put your opinion out there. Peace✌️

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Whywhywhy

Keyboard Club Member

Sep 18, 2021

KevinI cancelled my order due to poor communication from Drop.

Sense

118

Sep 18, 2021

Jude_MThis is the graph from SBAF…green is 800s. Not sure if it helps to throw another chart into the mix.

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Sep 18, 2021

crinacleI do show some graph comparisons using my graph comparison tool which defaults to equal loudness normalisation. The way this is done is documented in the GitHub of the comparison tool, as follows:

"CrinGraph weights graphs using the ISO 226:2003 loudness standard (with linear rather than cubic interpolation, since it has little effect on the average) with free field compensation (which most closely matches the conditions in which that standard was measured) to convert from speakers to IEMs. The flat bass response of the free field compensation is set to -7 dB to produce a graph which looks visually centered around the target loudness, and because it approximately normalizes the free field itself to 0dB at 1kHz."

---------- The quoted parts of the explanation, as well as how that is elaborated in GitHub, is a bit labyrinthine as worded. Can you explain that in perhaps more direct language, including how free field compensation (and which free field compensation) is applied? With respect to the measurement of the equalized response: Yes, I would expect an EQ’d response, based on settings derived from the measurements, to measure closely (post-EQ) when validated with the same setup and procedure.

soban.bhatti

Sep 18, 2021

KevinThanks for the update. Excited to receive them! All this measurement talk here is hilarious and so are all the "order cancelled due to lack of communication" is pretty ridiculous. My toddler has more patience.

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KristianN

107

Sep 18, 2021

KevinLooking forward to getting the 8xx any time soo, and my guess is that they are worth a couple of extra days of waiting.

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Sep 19, 2021

KevinLet me share some of my thoughts here. There are 2 type of customers who have pre-odered HD8XX. First one- who never had HD800/800S before (or just have listen for a short time). They want a cheaper and more affordable option as 8XX. They will buy 8XX ANYWAY!!!!!!! and will enjoy them, excited, posting good experience in overview, telling how amazing HD8XX is..... Another category pre-oderes, who already had/have HD800/800S on hands and knew all weakness and flaws. They were hoping that Drop will polish and fix all flaws with new 8XX. And mostly, you can hear the disappointment and negativity from this category of people. Sounds like: "Why I should spend 1100$ for HD8XX if I can EQ my 800 as: Low shelf: 40Hz +5.0dB Peak: 350Hz +3.0dB, 0.2Q Peak: 700Hz +2.0dB, 1.0Q Peak: 1,550Hz -7.3dB, 0.8Q Peak: 5,800Hz -3.5dB, 10.0Q .... and get the similar headphone with all additional "IMHO negative effects" ? By meaning "Negative effects" I am talking about the second/third harmonic distortion known as tonality, mufflers, bass bleed, different soundstage, corridor effect etc. Regards, Kim

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ManaScream

Sep 19, 2021

iamjamestlreading on the comments by the community, I don't feel toxicity but rather disappointment and well-explained arguments of why they're disappointed. Don't believe that a company should be allowed to ship a 1100 product without telling their customers on-time of the very drastic mid-production changes they made to the product.

AdviceGuy

Sep 19, 2021

ManaScreamWhat "mid-production" changes?

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Sense

118

Sep 19, 2021

kimdeugI don’t think you can lump people into those groups. I don’t fit into either group. I bought something as advertised and it was changed before shipping. I wanted what I ordered so I canceled and got an 800s because it was priced close and had the FR and soundstage I wanted.

Musicseeker

Sep 19, 2021

SenseDid the same and I am very happy with the HD800s.

Sep 19, 2021

SenseTrue. You are the smart one. That is what all my typing efforts for. Very glad that you had been listened others. Well done! I still can see exciting comments that it will be delivered soon. Regards, Kim

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Sep 19, 2021

KevinGood yo know they're finally arriving soon from Sennheiser. While I totally forgot I preordered these, which was intentional as to not suffer the long wait, now that I remembered, I'm so eager to finally receive them and experience their sound. My audiophilic hobby has been dormant all these months, as I've been busy enjoying my Mavic 2 Pro and recently the adorable Mavic Mini, plus researching and gathering parts for the new high-end PC I finally built last week. I can only pay attention to one hobby at a time. Not a multitracker at all. 😁 I plan to wake it up today and start enjoying my headphone collection again in anticipation for the upcoming arrival of the HD 8XX. I've been yearning lately to listen to the HIFIMAN HE5XX and Audeze LCD-X, but haven't been able to slow down my mind to enjoy music after so many months. 🥲

FrostyBud

Sep 20, 2021

raansire7Beauty drone collection ya got there! I have the older Mavic Pro Platinum, Air, and Mini. But I've been spending most of my time with the Skydio2. I'd like to spend more time, but between work and the east coast, where every last square foot of land is owned or near an airport, it's not easy to get out. So it's off to the library to check out CDs so to keep the tubes/headphones warmed up! Cheers

X.D.R

Sep 20, 2021

KevinAny update on the shipment arriving to the warehouse?

Sep 21, 2021

X.D.RJust posted an update, sorry for leaving you hanging all day, it's been frustrating trying to get info. PS: Some "inside baseball" for people if you care.. since we had extra staff all weekend expecting to pack/ship 1000 pairs of HD8XX headphones that never arrived... we put the THX 789 amplifier on sale over the weekend so that those people would have something to do instead of twiddle their thumbs.

(Edited)

X.D.R

Sep 21, 2021

KevinThank you for the update, looking for better news soon

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Neo239

Keyboard Club Member

Sep 21, 2021

KevinThanks for the update! I really do appreciate you keeping us in the loop. Looking forward to listening to these.

ciber

231

Sep 21, 2021

Jude_MSo glad to see Jude chime in. I guess most buyer's expectation is to get a pair of 8XX headphones close to and equal to sound of HD800S, BUT Sennheiser and Drop decided to ship the 8XX with different sound signature (maybe they do not want to bring down 800S market share). Drop claims it is a different tuning, and it probably even better than 800S; Some reviewers claim it is failed tuning and it is worse than 800S, which cause some pre-order people worried and panic. At this time, can Jude give us your listening experience as we trust your expertise and most importantly your ears.

ManaScream

Sep 21, 2021

AdviceGuyAfaik they released the pre-order with a completely different frequency response chart than the current one, and after receiving numerous backlash from the community saying they don't like this current frequency response, their answer was, as seen above, "well we here at Drop think it sounds good regardless of your opinions".

Sep 21, 2021

AdviceGuyIt’s a bit of a history, with pros and cons due to announcing the product early and sending a tuning prototype to influencers for reviews, unlike most headphones which are kept mostly secret until release. Drop initially pitched the HD 8XX as “what the Drop community has requested for years:” a flagship HD 800S but with more low end warmth, more laid back highs, and a lower price. Expectations soared sky high (and the promises were pretty high), which was a double edged sword. Fast forward to late spring/early summer, before locking in the production line and worker training to begin making hundreds of headphones, Drop sent a hand-tuned prototype that was representative of the tuning they were going for on a tour to several influencers and reviewers, so that they could independently describe and measure the headphone. In doing so, they basically made a public focus group… the overall feedback was that the new tuning was difficult to tell apart from the existing HD 800S unless compared side by side, and didn’t significantly progress towards the warmer goals of the announcement. Some people liked it this way, I tried to be neutral (basically I said it was good but there wasn’t much to tempt people who already have had the option to buy an HD 800S for years), others expressed a desire for a warmer sound (for example, check out Mad Lust Envy’s impressions, one of his last product reviews before starting work as Audeze’s brand rep). Drop published Jude’s graphs from this sample, but they decided based on the feedback to ask Sennheiser to make the HD 8XX warmer. A few weeks ago, Will made a discussion post update, saying that the final production tuning was going to be more significantly warmer, with Jude’s FR and CSD graphs to illustrate the tuning, and that the now production-line sample (not a hand tuned prototype) would make the rounds again for impressions and reviews. Will also announced that the headphone would be shipping early, targeting mid-September rather than November. Being that the tuning was now more v-shaped with more bass emphasis and less upper mids, similar treble response as before but with less 5k-6k resonance, the new tuning garnered a mixed reaction, as matters of taste always do. Various measurements and graphs of have been created, which is generating discussion. A production model (or two?) is still on tour for reviews, which will give people more perspectives to consider.

(Edited)

Daniel_Lagoe

Sep 21, 2021

KevinThank you so much for the updates! On another note...For the people still in this Drop, might want to take a look at the following if you're planning on using EQ... You can get great quality EQ on your PC for all applications (without needing WASAPI or ASIO), by following a few things found here and downloading Equalizer APO: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/ending-the-windows-audio-quality-debate.19438/

Summary Recommendations: -Install Equalizer APO and use it to disable original APOs and set EAPO's preamp gain at ~ -4 dB to avoid upsample overs, filtering induced peaks, and the Windows CAudioLimiter -Set Windows audio to 24 bits so that it's added dither doesn't compromise dynamic range -Set Windows sample rate to the same rate as the native file, or to 96 kHz if you play back high resolution material -Turn off Windows system sounds and enhancements !!! I also messaged Sennheiser to see if it's possible to get your exact headphones Frequency Reponse (corresponding to its serial number) and they said "as far as I know you will get a specific frequency response for your HD 8XX.".

Fayne

2583

Sep 21, 2021

KevinIt is nice to see the tracking numbers start flowing out.

scy046

Sep 21, 2021

EvshrugI really have to say, I appreciate your perspective throughout this. Being familiar with SBAF, as well as both DMS and Crinacle, has led to a lot of going back and forth trying to decide which "take" to put the most stock into. I appreciate having someone reminding us to be a bit more moderate in the entire discussion. If nothing else, a good reminder that there's going to be opinions everywhere and end of the day, we may just need to hear it ourselves for the final verdict. Otherwise, good to know we're starting to see them shipping! I got my order in I think right when the drop went up so hopefully seeing something soon, eager to hear the thing for myself.

soban.bhatti

Sep 22, 2021

KevinWoohooo I was so happy to see the tracking number pop up during my bike ride. Can't wait to receive them!! Got my balanced cable from Hart just in time. I am in Canada so the hand off between USPS and Canada Post might take some extra time but hey we were supposed to get these for Christmas so can't complain. Cheers 🥂

gikigill

Sep 22, 2021

kimdeugAs a current owner of 2 HD800 OG, one in normal use with a 26XXX serial and another one being the last of the HD800 with a 50XXX serial number as a backup, where do I fit in?

Vote

Sep 22, 2021

soban.bhattiOh, please share your impressions after you compare your stock cable vs Hart 👍 I’ve never seen them in person, so I’m curious about their build quality. I forget if Hart Audio is one of the companies with modular tips, but I was also curious if adding an extra adapter changed the sound in any way. Thanks @scy046, BadSeed Tech’s video review seemed to consider pros/cons/different tastes as well. I didn’t see Zeos’ review, but for some reason I did see his video where he tried out a bunch of Dekoni pads on the HD 8XX, and though that was a positive take I was pleased that he also went into detail describing the sound signature changes with each pad. Joshua Valour’s current video on the HD 8XX is about the prototype tuning; it will be interesting to see where his views land on the retail release. I also heard Electronic Vices here on Drop is signed up for the review tour, no guarantees where he will land on it either.

Fayne

2583

Sep 22, 2021

EvshrugThe Hart cables don’t make a lick of sonic difference versus the stock. Aside from the whole balanced versus single ended thing that is. I somewhat recently bought their split style cables when I got my HD820 and have been using them without problems. I immediately got their splits for my HD6xx/HD58X, HE4XX (OG), HE5xx/HE-X4, EMU Teak, 99 Noir, Elex, T60RP, TR-70-250, T1.2, ATH-R70x, and JVC HA-SW01 afterwards. So worth it. They all sound the same as pretty much every other balanced cable I’ve purchased or made. The big draw is being able to have shared interconnects, adapters (TRS/TRRS/XLR4/Etc.), and short pigtail splits off the cans themselves. Materials wise everything is pretty standard, no overpriced unobtanium. Construction wise all the cables have been very consistent, with no major deviations in the solder job or overall fit and finish. Plus, they’re generally great people, and very happy to work with you on custom jobs. Price wise they are on par with most of the cheapish balanced stuff made in China. I’m generally against buying cables when I can make them, but there is something very nice about only having to spend 20-30 per additional set of headphones once you’ve got one full set (not counting hd800/820 which are much more expensive because of Sennheiser proprietary connectors).

FlyingDutchMan

Sep 22, 2021

EvshrugI am also curious about Josh’s review. Although I will have my HDxx in hand today or tomorrow so it will not matter for me anymore. Now looking for an amp I can get my hands on fast since they shipped this thing 2 months ahead of time, without giving me a heads up, so need an amp ASAP now to try it out for a couple of weeks to see if I like the tuning on the HD8xx. Any suggestions? Looking for a dac/amp combo or just an amp. And would running it unbalanced still give me a decent impression? Amps I saw mentioned 789 (not recommended due to highs), topping, sml, schiit, gustard, Bryston., matrix. For me convenience is important so if I can stream to the amp that would be great. Thanks!

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Sep 22, 2021

FayneWow, what a collection of headphones! Adapters certainly make tons of sense when you’ve got to accommodate that many things. So, Hart also has adapters for the different headphone connectors? Lemo connectors make very solid connections due to their design and magnets, and they’re used in medical devices (and I think I saw them in high end mechanical keyboards and their coiled USB cables?), but yes they do cost more. “Aside from the whole balanced versus single ended thing that is.” Well, balanced makes even less difference than cable design, but it is prudent to use the output that your amp is primarily designed around. I like Pentaconn in general, and using balanced allows me to use two (actually 3) headphones simultaneously on my desktop amp (HDV 820) which is great for A/B comparisons, but I wish my DAP would forgo balanced and just make the 3.5mm SE output more powerful. @FlyingDutchMan Josh was always eager (and had great video production quality), but over the years his ability to describe audio has improved substantially. There is a lot of good things that can be said for the benefits of practice and hard work! I think he will also present sound descriptions and listening notes before adding his subjective conclusions. If I recall correctly, he was lukewarm about the prototype HD 8xx tuning, and pointed out that he wouldn’t have heard much difference between it and the HD 800S if he didn’t have both side by side, so I am very interested in how he responds to the bigger contrast this time. I wish I was more familiar with Drop’s THX amp. Given my experience with the Cavalli Liquid Carbon, I would lean more towards the Liquid Carbon X as a safe bet on a budget, but with the change in the HD 8XX’s highs it may not even matter as much. I like the people at Schiit… I don’t have a grasp on their latest stuff, but I probably wouldn’t get anything below a Jotunheim 2 unless you wanted to play with tubes in a secondary amp. There’s more than one road to Rome! Edit: I hear you with regards to streaming. I often use my iPad or HiBy DAP as a source (camera connection kit for the former, coax output for the latter), and those stream music just fine, but I also configured a Raspberry Pi with a HiFiBerry Digi2 Pro module and an install of Volumo, which allows me to use Airplay 2 to stream audio to any DAC (coax/optical connection).

(Edited)

FlyingDutchMan

Sep 22, 2021

EvshrugThanks for the detailed response. Do you have any experience with the monolith liquid amps? Like the platinum (tube) or the gold which is solid state but includes a dac. I always eyed the hd800 and later the hd800s so I am looking forward of trying out the hd8xx. I normally more of a speaker person and don’t like the more in your head sound of a lot of headphones so I am curious if the HD8xx lives up to the soundstage hype. Not expecting too much and hoping for the best. Now just need to get an amp (and dac). I was wondering about the matrix I-mini3-pro due to the all in one box design but not sure how easy the returns are if I don’t like it. Also would be nice to spend the $200 I got with the HD8xx towards and amp on mass drop, however first see if I like it.

Sep 22, 2021

FlyingDutchManCan we take a moment to appreciate the irony in this statement? “Not expecting too much and hoping for the best.” I know what you mean though, you’re trying to keep your expectations low and hoping to be surprised and delighted! I am bemused 😁 I totally understand wanting to use your $200 Drop Store credit. Of the currently available models, I’m afraid I know of them more by reputation than direct experience. The Darkvoice has long been a darling of the mid-fi tube world, the Violectric is probably the best sounding amp there (Violectric has a reputation for a velvety, wet “house sound”), the small population that has taken the chance on the Singxer amp have sung high praises for it, and the Drop THX 789 > O2 in pretty much every way but price (and with it on sale for $200…). I’ve made a friend who has been pleased feeding his HD 800S Anniversary edition with a Woo Audio tube amp and an iFi ZEN DAC Signature… if you’d like a matching stack, the iFi stack seems to have many reviews, and might allow you to integrate smoothly with your existing speaker system and switch outputs easily. Again, I wish I had heard these…. but I can’t know everything, and those are the ones that stand out to me the most (and I simply lack info on the others). I don’t think the store credit expires, if you decide to save it for something that jumps out at you. I notice that the Liquid Carbon X is sold out right now… I wonder if it will come back. When the original Carbon was launched, it was competitive with $700 and $800 amps, and VERY synergistic with my HD 800, and I really liked Cavalli’s other options that were outside my budget, the Liquid Gold and Liquid Glass. I even got to hear the prototype Liquid Platinum, which was built at the time to be Cavalli’s new flagship… It appears the Monoprice version is more affordable and mass market; I haven’t heard that but it reviews well. However, the Monoprice Liquid Gold is comparable to the original independent Cavalli sound quality, while being much less expensive due to the Monoprice partnership/economies of scale, and it reviews really well. I liked what I read in reviews of both; I recommend you read a review or two as well.

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X.D.R

Sep 22, 2021

KevinHey Kevin, just wanted to know if the orders are going to be shipped out as a bulk to Fedex or are there small batches going out at a time?

Vote

FrostyBud

Sep 23, 2021

KevinNow THAT is a bit of interesting insight. Next time this happens, any chance of putting a high-end tube amp on sale? Asking for a friend....

AdviceGuy

Sep 23, 2021

kimdeugIn that that graph you uploaded, the problem is not so much the depth of the dip (5db), but actually the problem is the expanse of the dip, which is the coverage of frequency. It is in effect from 1 to 3k wide.

Vote

tg12

Sep 23, 2021

KevinKevin, I pre ordered these headphones. I just got tracking number and it is being shipped FedEx Home Delivery and not being shipped UPS Ground like you promised. Could you please ship the headphones using UPS Ground?

Vote

Sep 23, 2021

soban.bhattiDid you finally get 'em? If you did, how do you like the Hart cable? Mine are scheduled to be delivered today by Fedex, but so far, they still show as being in Jamaica, NY since yesterday. They should've been out for delivery by this morning.

Sep 23, 2021

tg12your order was upgraded from Fedex Smartpost to Fedex Ground. We use UPS Ground and Fedex ground interchangeably depending on where you are, whichever will get to you fastest.

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AdviceGuy

Sep 24, 2021

EvshrugThank you for response with the story. This is key to knowing who is most responsible for the last tunning. So it was Sennheiser, but this was not a last minute Tunning. It takes time for production line to make the internal change to the driver. So Drop isn't so much to blame. In the end everyone will realize that Sennheiser gimped the driver, to get that broad scoup, and accompanying lower distortion figures within that area. Thats not a V shape. Thats a wide scoup of frequencies, from below 1k to 3k. If it were even a 15db dip at one spot that would be less noticable. This is more like fostwx th900 type scoup. This is also a novice move, to stifle a driver in order for less decay & distortion. Different resonances now. Better looking specs at expense of sound. So this is what I will be first to say. Driver is gimped. The closure of the rear holes are stifling the driver, so micro-dynamics will be reduced. You will now need a much stronger amp to push out the now less and muted detailing. As an example, put two sponges on your nostrils. Do you like that? How do you think the 8XX driver feels? Permanently gimped. The "resonator" technique was better than doing this. They should have just made another resonator. Given the knowledge of engineering team involved, I would say this was not a mistake of any kind. This was a progression of what was done to 800S, but overdone, so that the regular HD800/S units will ultimately remain superior. How much, will depend on your ears, and your gear. They betting you won't care. Still an above avg headphone. Who cares if its a step below?

(Edited)

soban.bhatti

Sep 24, 2021

raansire7Mine are also in Jamaica, NY currently. Looks like our 8xxs are together. Will keep you posted on how the hart cables are. I mostly for them for the custom colour to go with my setup and a long 10ft extension so I can go melt in my couch.

Sep 24, 2021

soban.bhattiMelt in the couch, ha-ha. Love it!😁 Man, my headphones are delayed according to the Fedex website. They should've landed in Puerto Rico yesterday. Still stuck in Jamaica, NY. Did you check if yours are stuck too?

Sep 25, 2021

KevinI was supposed to receive mine yesterday, but they got delayed. I did receive them today. Man, you guys did a beautiful job with the tuning. I'll never know how the first iteration sounded, but this one is proper for my personal likes. I don't hear none of the phasey, comb filtered-sounding aberrations I heard on the audio demos some reviewers posted. They are right on the money with my other pricey headphones in terms of tonality. If the HD 800 and 800 S are more trebley than these, I wouldn't have liked them at all. The treble on these is bordering on too much already on some tracks, as it happens with my other high-end headphones. Other than that, smoothness and tightness everywhere. I would've light a smidge more bass slam, but that's personal preference. I think the bass is just fine on these. Less would've been too little for me and I would've returned them for sure. I'm very, very happy that you guys decided on a "last minute" retune if this is more than just the slight tweak of the first version. I want you to know I'm grateful of what the team achieved.