Showing 1 of 1299 conversations about:
mtmercer
46
Feb 27, 2018
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@AndrewMason Do the balanced power output specs apply when a 2V RCA single ended line level is used? If not, please add those numbers if you get a chance.
Also is there any single ended to balanced conversion when using a single ended source and the 4-pin XLR output. Thanks! Sweet looking drop!
Feb 27, 2018
Hi mtmercer Thanks for checking this out! Short answers: yes and yes. If using RCA or XLR input, regardless of gain setting, the output power specs remain unchanged. And for either RCA single-ended or XLR-3 balanced input, the XLR-4 output connector will produce a balanced output signal. i.e. if you use RCA input, we amplify your signal plus generate an inverted version to make the XLR-4 put out balanced audio - up to the full 6000mW if you're crazy like that.
Feb 27, 2018
mtmercer
46
Feb 27, 2018
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Thank you for the info!
Feb 27, 2018
jefe32
145
Feb 27, 2018
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Nice, Michael Mercer in the Massdrop community.
Feb 27, 2018
mtmercer
46
Feb 27, 2018
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FWIW - If there is a notable Michael Mercer, that’s not me. I like to think I’m pretty popular though.
Feb 27, 2018
jefe32
145
Feb 27, 2018
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Aww damn. I thought you were this guy: https://twitter.com/MikeMercer
Feb 27, 2018
MadMan007
101
Feb 27, 2018
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Good detail to know. As a followup, if one does use the balanced inputs, is the whole signal path fully balanced/dual differential? So that the balanced input is a separate path up to the same point the single-ended input is made balanced?
Feb 27, 2018
@MadMan007 There are some very expensive, very nice opamps in there! Supporting truly balanced signal pathway throughout would shoot the cost through the roof, for negligible improvement. See Bruno Putzeys' EDN article on why having truly balanced signal path isn't necessary. "Symmetry is useless". " Differential transmission of audio doesn't mean you need to make a symmetrical voltage " https://www.edn.com/design/consumer/4429968/2/The-G-word--How-to-get-your-audio-off-the-ground
Feb 27, 2018
DontDooDad
93
Mar 3, 2018
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This deserves some more clarification. Are the balanced inputs converted to single ended, then amplified, then converted back to balanced? Is there any benefit to using the balanced inputs over single-ended? For instance, my Yggy has both (truly) balanced outs and (summed) single ended outs; if I used the single-ended outs with this amp, would I only lose the noise rejection benefits of balanced transmission?
Mar 3, 2018
pure5152
69
Nov 16, 2018
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Hmm, considering the schiit jotunheim is fully balanced all the way for only $49 more... I don't know about "shoot the cost through the roof"
Nov 16, 2018
mtmercer
46
Nov 16, 2018
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FWIW, I previously owned the Jotunheim and now own the this amp. I prefer this amp due to its clarity and detail without much harshness. The Jotunheim sounded too harsh for my personal taste.
Nov 16, 2018
789 has MUCH lower noise, distortion, and intermod performance than Jotunheim. One of the keys is "differential all the way" not necessarily "balanced all the way". And in 789, we put the money into the components that matter. Schiit puts money into marketing and enclosures.
Nov 16, 2018
pure5152
69
Nov 16, 2018
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While I do really like my thx aaa 789 and do appreciate the lower noise, what you’re saying is a total lie and irresponsible. The Jotunheim is fully balanced AND differential, and if you knew anything about the company you’d know their money is spent on the opposite: mostly component, and as little in marketing/chassis as possible. You can be proud of your product without crapping on competitor’s products, and especially lying. I’m very disappointed with your response.
Nov 16, 2018
pure5152
69
Nov 16, 2018
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This is fair. I never heard the Jotunheim myself, but a common complaint with early units was that they sounded harsh; the thx aaa 789, while I’d say brighter leaning, doesn’t sound harsh unless paired with a brighter headphone like the dt880. FWIW I’ve heard that in recent Jotunheim builds, Schiit did a 180 made it much warmer, probably in response to complaints. Still not absolutely neutral, but maybe worth an audition again if you get the chance. Take this with a grain of salt, because I haven’t personally heard either revision (but will in a few weeks when I visit the schiitr)
Nov 16, 2018
@pure5152 easy there with the hysterics in the face of cognitive dissonance. A quick comparison of spec performance will make you wonder what Schiit IS spending money on.
Nov 17, 2018
pure5152
69
Nov 17, 2018
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Honestly, probably a true balanced topology. But yeah I agree, enough with the hysterics from both of us. Needless to say, I don't think it's necessary to make comparisons or downtalk other competitor's stuff if your product is good. And @AndrewMason, this THX amp _is_ good, even if it's not truly op-ampless in the balanced section.
Nov 17, 2018
rastus
828
Nov 17, 2018
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Exactly, exactly where, was he unfairly denigrating Schiit? “789 has MUCH lower noise, distortion, and intermod performance than Jotunheim. One of the keys is "differential all the way" not necessarily "balanced all the way". And in 789, we put the money into the components that matter. Schiit puts money into marketing and enclosures.”
Nov 17, 2018
pure5152
69
Nov 17, 2018
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Jotunheim is fully balanced differential. Also, schiit barely markets at all, and tries to put as little money as possible into the chassis. This is why schiit products are made with bended aluminum and stainless steel chasses; CNCd aluminum costs much more to make. In other words, that quote is filled with straight up lies. sources:
Nov 17, 2018
rastus
828
Nov 17, 2018
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0.2%... sounds like marketing... I would have done 00.2%...
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Nov 17, 2018
AndyMok
34
Nov 17, 2018
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"marketing" means word play here This will be disappointing I'm afraid. Review and Measurements of Schiit Jotunheim https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/review-and-measurements-of-schiit-jotunheim-and-ifi-idsd-black-label-dacs-and-headphone-amps.3717/ and no, they didn't even get the chassis right
Nov 17, 2018
purr1n
72
Nov 17, 2018
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Hi Andrew, First of all, congratulations on a fine job. The THX AAA 789 is fantastic headmp for the price. The tonality is neutral, the headstage is open, and the amp is revealing of sources. However, I would like to know where you arrived at the "MUCH lower noise, distortion, and intermod performance than Jotunheim."? My initial set of measurements (more to do later), isn't showing this. In fact, both Jotunheim and THX AAA 789 measure exemplary! https://www.superbestaudiofriends.org/index.php?threads/massdrop-thx-aaa-789-and-schiit-jotunheim-measurements.7115/
Nov 17, 2018
ReadingIzHard
8
Nov 18, 2018
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Maybe you should read the entire thread before making a fool of yourself and accusing people of being liars. Andrew never claimed Jotunheim was not balanced or differential. You have completely misunderstood his post and owe him an apology. He is saying that the key to the AAA-789s performance is that it's fully differential as that's what matters (not balanced) for this design. See his response to MadMan007 to get the context. Then apologize.
Nov 18, 2018
ReadingIzHard
8
Nov 18, 2018
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Your AverLAB is isn't sensitive enough. -110 dB THD+N generator and -112 dB THD+N analyzer. It helps to understand your tools limitations.
Nov 18, 2018
DELIMIT
40
Nov 18, 2018
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Speaking of looking like a fool. " And in 789, we put the money into the components that matter. Schiit puts money into marketing and enclosures." Utter nonsense. A) It's wildly unprofessional to trash talk a competitors product. B) Every company puts money into their enclosures, 789 included. Anyone claiming otherwise is a fool. "Experts", talking about numbers that are beyond any practical relevance.
Nov 18, 2018
ReadingIzHard
8
Nov 18, 2018
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Considering neither of us are privy to the costs of the Jotunheim and AAA-789 enclosures, neither of us are able to confirm or invalidate the referenced claim. So your post adds no useful information.
Nov 18, 2018
DELIMIT
40
Nov 18, 2018
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I suspect that I know about as much about the cost spent on a Shiit enclosure as Andrew does, yet you feel he's qualified to make those claims? Right. Your post adds no useful information.
Nov 18, 2018
ReadingIzHard
8
Nov 18, 2018
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Thank you for confirming that you know nothing about the enclosure costs of either device.
Nov 18, 2018
DELIMIT
40
Nov 18, 2018
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So you agree then that he's not qualified to be making comments about how/where Shiit is investing their money in regards to the enclosure. Thanks for clearing that up. Anyone who believes Shiit is spending large portions of the cost on enclosures is clueless or completely out of touch with the cost of well designed and built metalwork. (and certainly not qualified to be making those kinds of comments in the first place) I do wonder how much a THX badge cost though.
Nov 18, 2018
Volly
283
Nov 18, 2018
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I have the Jot, I wouldn't call it "warm", quite transparent with great clarity. However my Asgard 2 is definitely a warm amp by comparisons sake. I wish I could visit the Schiitr with you....oh wait....that came out wrong....arghhh!
Nov 18, 2018
purr1n
72
Nov 18, 2018
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Both amps' performance are well within the capabilities of the AverLAB. Otherwise, we would not be able to make out the differences in noise floor, harmonic distortion characteristics, and AC mains hum and associated harmonics. I do however suspect a lot of the D2 and D3 (for both amps) are contributed by the generator. https://www.superbestaudiofriends.org/index.php?threads/massdrop-thx-aaa-789-and-schiit-jotunheim-measurements.7115/#post-233709 It helps to understand how these tools actually work with real world experience as opposed to reading specs.
Nov 18, 2018
ReadingIzHard
8
Nov 18, 2018
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And yet... "We use the Audio Precision flagship APx555. It's the only audio analyzer on the market capable of measuring distortion this low as it maxes out around -148 to -152 dB." And you don't exactly have a history of consistently accurate measurements along with reasonable discussion and cooperation with other members of the community. So "real world experience" is variable. Anyone can buy and "operate" these tools.
Nov 18, 2018
rastus
828
Nov 18, 2018
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Wow,, kinda knew it from the responses one would see when Schiit was brought up on scope... But now with such a nice amp, at such a nice price point, you have the Schiit alocytes in an f’n panic state... even rounding up the wagons and defending the “enclosure”. There should be another site for proper, secluded, flagellation; “Temple of the Holy Schiity Yggy”. Not really different than what we had in the past “The House of Fisher” or Mac, take your pick... Anyway, great job, looks like the new addition to the MD stack is outstanding, now for the R-2R to debut & survive,,, then a pkg price for the ‘House of MD’ stack; CTH/THX/R-2R;) Edit: What op-amps inside?
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Nov 18, 2018
DELIMIT
40
Nov 18, 2018
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Who was defending enclosures? According to your lap shaped bucket seat, all of the money is being funneled into those enclosures instead of anything that"matters". Shiit enclosures aren't premium quality, I'd wager there's more money in this 789 enclosure than most of the smaller Shiit offerings. He's spouting nonsense. You're kidding yourself if you don't believe that *both* companies aren't skimping out on these cheap offerings. It's pretty low class to flame a competitor., especially when THX has quite literally made a living off of selling useless badges to people.
Nov 18, 2018
rastus
828
Nov 18, 2018
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Predictable response,, not me in the "bucket",, lol... thanks...
Nov 18, 2018
purr1n
72
Nov 18, 2018
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And yet... "We use the Audio Precision flagship APx555. It's the only audio analyzer on the market capable of measuring distortion this low as it maxes out around -148 to -152 dB." ^ This is wrong. The AP-555 is only 5-7db better than the AverLAB if you want to compare specs. You can't compare listed specs to observations of the noise floor on the analyzer. For apples to apples, see specs below from AP site. In any case, if you actually looked at or understood my measurements, you can see that the AverLAB is fully capable of capturing distortion down to -145 to -148db. This is clear in the excellent noise floor of the THX AAA 789. The weakness with the AverLAB is the generator, but from what I've seen in practice comparing to APx555 results, the AverLAB is as good on the analyzer, possibly slightly better. I have no beef with the THX AAA 789. The amp measures excellently. I stand by my comments that this is an excellent amp for the price. I don't know why you wish to invalid my results that show how good the THX AAA 789 measures, https://www.ap.com/analyzers-accessories/apx555/

GENERATOR PERFORMANCE
Residual THD+N (22 kHz BW) –117 dB + 1.0 µV Typically <–120 dB (1 kHz, 2.0 V) ANALYZER PERFORMANCE
Residual THD+N (22 kHz BW) –117 dB + 1.0 µV Typically <–120 dB (1 kHz, 2.0 V)
Nov 18, 2018
Jackula
1653
Nov 18, 2018
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Suspiciously consistent amount of upvotes on pro-Schiit / anti-789 posts. Regardless of how the enclosure is built, performance is all I care about. I don't spend all day staring at my audio equipment, I'm usually reading a book or working on my PC while listening. Personally I find the Jot a solid amp that performs well no more than its price point. But it doesn't gel with me, I find the glare bothersome.
Nov 18, 2018
rastus
828
Nov 19, 2018
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Yes,, a bit skewed on the votes... funny how that Schiit happens... How is your HE-9 working with the FB2K plugins that you were experimenting with? I still see this as the future; killer clean power allowing unlimited synth (filtering/eq/tubing;), or just pure and un-filtered for the few good and the new DSD recordings. Which leads to the question; how does this MD/THX stack-up against the HE-9? Not quite the same power in specs, but plenty, op-amp - not discrete and not regenerative of course- no Hoover Dam behind it all.. Would like to see a signal rise slope comparison here... the THX is so much more the price point, I could so welcome, thoughts? Is someone going to open one of these THX's up, show some pics, what op-amps are inside? Having "There are some very expensive, very nice opamps in there!" from Andrew Mason does not suffice...
Nov 19, 2018
mtmercer
46
Nov 19, 2018
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FWIW, based on my limited listening so far the HE-9 har a larger soundstage and a little smoother sound. I hear the smoothness difference with my Utopias. I’m not sure how much of that so would notice on other cans. For the price, I think this amp is really good and there really is some secret sauce in there. Also much smaller, lighter, cheaper, and cooler than the HE-9. I use the HE-9 as my benchmark for amps and come away impressed with the THX 789.
Nov 19, 2018
TheBatman_Yo
9
Nov 19, 2018
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https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/review-and-measurements-of-schiit-jotunheim-and-ifi-idsd-black-label-dacs-and-headphone-amps.3717/

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/review-and-measurements-of-massdrop-thx-aaa-789-amp.5001/ Honestly I don't understand why people defend Schiit so much, their stuff is notorious for measuring terribly. If I were Andrew I'd be pretty pissed too seeing someone spout this garbage about the Jot being comparable to the THX 789.
Nov 19, 2018
rastus
828
Nov 19, 2018
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Do you know what op-amps are inside? Willing to 'pop the top'? Thanks for the insight, only to cause more angst... lol of course the HE-9 would have to sound better... so much would like to End-Game this SS selection... current solution is to sit back in the meantime... and enjoy my free-electron tube rig, which I believe to be EG for that side... except... the new Western Electric westernelectric.com is building a new shrine for the "new-new" 300B...;)
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Nov 19, 2018
Jackula
1653
Nov 19, 2018
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I've played with the tube distortion plugin enough to disable it, too much digital clipping. Natural tubes still best for tubey distortions. Recently been playing with Resampler-V for Foobar and getting very good results. With this plugin the playback is almost as good as Roon which I believe uses a proprietary resampling technique that sounds much better than the standard SoX or SSRC resamplers in Foobar. But with Resampler-V it's probably 5% to how Roon sounds, I don't think the difference is worth the $500 lifer membership cost. Not sure how it compares to the 789, probably not that well. They are different classes and by specs the lower-end Master 9 is already much better. The only amp coming close to the HE-9 is probably the Moon 430HA, but it's still around 15-20% behind.
Nov 19, 2018
mtmercer
46
Nov 19, 2018
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I do not know what op-amps are inside or what specific function the op-amps inside perform. I am not really interested in opening the unit to find out which op-amps are used. I plan to do some more listening and “follow my ears”. Seems like a great SS amp for the $ is my initial impression.
Nov 19, 2018
RockyMountains
467
Nov 20, 2018
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And in 789, we put the money into the components that matter. Schiit puts money into marketing and enclosures. Not classy at all coming from a manufacturer (I own no Schiit amps and probably never will)
Nov 20, 2018
rastus
828
Nov 20, 2018
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Thanks,, this is looking even nicer...
Nov 20, 2018
Ravis
23
Nov 20, 2018
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Well, there goes my purchase. This wasn’t classy at all.
Nov 20, 2018
ProfessorPat
366
Nov 21, 2018
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I don't understand why everyone obsesses with numbers from either (any) company. My barely sub 1% THD speaker amp sounds better than a lot of stuff that measures hundreds to thousands of times better in that department. So what? You want to listen to your spec sheet?
Nov 21, 2018
TheBatman_Yo
9
Nov 22, 2018
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'sounds better' is a subjective opinion. You might think it sounds better, others might not. When it comes down to it I purchase equipment that measures well because it is concrete evidence that a product is well made.
Nov 22, 2018
ProfessorPat
366
Nov 22, 2018
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Of course it’s subjective. Everyone’s personal enjoyment of any piece of gear is subjective to at least some degree, so why have some become so obsessed with numbers that they act like subjective enjoyment isn’t a significant factor in buying something? And I guess it is a sign it’s not built so badly it has awful numbers, but raw numbers that aren’t horrendously high here don’t tell you much about sound. A matching 0.0005% THD on two different amps could potentially sound wildly different. If you had a graph of the distribution of that distortion, you might be able to tell which one you’ll enjoy more, but even then, it is subjective, so if you’re questioning which one is better, you need to listen and decide.
Nov 22, 2018
rastus
828
Nov 23, 2018
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Well... that is interesting,, and very useful information for me in choosing a SS amp, thanks. Tubes are still the best at being tubes...;) free elektrons in the ether vs confined in a solid... hell, even superconductors have a current limit.. Though,, if you would put your HE-9 in a liquid nitrogen bath it may not clip as early... just dry it off nicely after the experiment, you know, for science in the pursuit of audio knowlege for us? LOL... https://aip.scitation.org/doi/abs/10.1063/1.2374869?journalCode=apl I’m thinking just get the THX 789 here,, but still think we may perhaps see a GaAs driven SS amp in the future, that then has the speed to handle synthing anything. I went with Audivarna as could not stomach Roon @ $500. Foobar is still on the list for future play.
Nov 23, 2018
Jackula
1653
Nov 23, 2018
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Oh, the clipping I'm talking about is in the digital domain. Digital music have the signal as close to the the max bit depth as possible to get away from the noise floor. By apply digital harmonic distortion of 20dB or more, I have to drop the signal by as much. Although my HE-9 has enough gain to get the volume I need, my DAC produces too much noise (such is the nature of tube DACs). I intend to retry this once I upgrade to a SS DAC in the future. A MSB Discrete DAC has about -140dB or SNR or I may get the Audio-GD flagship which has -120dB so *almost* inaudible noise depending on what I listen to and what tube presets I use. I have auditioned neither but I've scheduled an appointment with a MSB dealer in a few weeks' time, and I intend to audition the R7HE and Terminator DACs next year. I have started saving up monies for one, I recently sold some of my unused speakers for about $10k. Btw happy Thanksgiving :)
Nov 23, 2018
rastus
828
Nov 23, 2018
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Awww... crap... thought it was a reason (excuse;) to not spend $2K+... back to saving up for a Hoover Dam... I’m enjoying 300B w/cap-bank for now, Happy Thanksgiving! A Terminator... and evaluate a Totaldac as well?
Nov 23, 2018
Jackula
1653
Nov 24, 2018
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I thought about a TotalDAC but their warranty sucks, spoke to the owner a few times via email. He won't cover return shipping during warranty even if it's DOA. Insured return shipping both ways to France is expensive. Rather buy something local.
Nov 24, 2018
rastus
828
Nov 24, 2018
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Can’t beat the resistors he currently uses in Totaldac’s... I only recently saw the trick that Vishay, well the folks in Texas, do with having a bi-layer, positive & negative TCR, resistor structure, for the utmost in stability, along with having the lowest noise. Steven Wright — “It is like putting a dehumidifier and a humidifier in the same room and letting them fight it out.”
Nov 24, 2018
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