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14themoney
1395
Sep 20, 2018
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Good things come to those who wait. This IS a great deal. Sadly, this is the same grit that I have in an even larger DMT Diasharp stone. Personally, I have not heard negative things about this (DC521) stone. Fallkniven is a very reputable maker of quality knives. I might have to buy this one on general principles. The non-diamond side contains synthetic sapphires. The grit is smaller than 50 micron, the diamond side, but neither could I, find a number for it. I have a large DMT extra-fine stone, but I rarely use it, because blades come off of the fine grit stone very sharp to scary sharp.
Sep 20, 2018
Kavik
5531
Sep 22, 2018
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14themoneyHmmm, Amazon description lists 25 micron for the diamond side, still no mention of fruit for the ceramic
25 micron puts it at about 800 grit American standard?
Sep 22, 2018
14themoney
1395
Sep 22, 2018
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KavikYou caught me red handed....or ded brained. It is 25. I don't know what I was thinking or typing. If I had to hazard a guess, I probably thot that 25 couldn't be right because I don't consider that very aggressive. And there was talk in several areas that spoke to the aggressiveness of this stone. My fine DMT is 25 and it doesn't remove lots of metal.Nonetheless. I thank you for pointing out my error.
Sep 22, 2018
14themoney
1395
Sep 22, 2018
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KavikDMT numbers (description/grit/mesh) Coarse(45/325) Fine(25/600) Extra Fine(9/1200)
Sep 22, 2018
Kavik
5531
Sep 22, 2018
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14themoneyNo problem, happens to the best of us. Since we're probably all always comparing like 15 different things at once lol
Hmm, those DMT numbers look a little off from what I see for conversions in a lot of places. Many list 25 micron at 800 ANSI I've never been able to make perfect sense of DMT's claims to grits
Sep 22, 2018
14themoney
1395
Sep 22, 2018
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KavikFWIW, the numbers that I copied come directly off of a insert of a DMT stone. (Please excuse the delay. I was googling that stuff.) There does not seems to be agreement between what DMT calls mesh and the micron sizing compared to figures from other people. The charts that I saw all showed that 25 microns corresponded to an 800 grit. Mesh is a unit that described how many holes are in a unit area (just like a screen). What passes thru that mesh will be named accordingly. This website equates an 800 grit with a 20-30 mesh. https://www.gessweincanada.com/category-s/11328.htm
Sep 22, 2018
Kavik
5531
Sep 22, 2018
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14themoneyNot doubting you :) I've seen the same confusing results when looking at DMT myself
There's sooooo many "standards", it's impossible to follow if they don't list which one they're using. Between micron, mesh, there's a couple sieve ones (similar to mesh), ANSI grit, JIS grit... Just to name a few
Even that site you linked doesn't say if the grit rating they're using is ANSI (American National Standards Institute) or JIS (Japanese International Standard)
Here's a link for you that describes the different standards pretty well. I'm having a little difficulty reading the chart on my phone.....but it doesn't look like their numbers match up to either ANSI or JIS, which are the 2 I see used most often.... But also didn't match up to the European one or the micro mesh one either..... Very confusing https://www.fine-tools.com/G10019.html
Sep 22, 2018
14themoney
1395
Sep 22, 2018
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Kavik......and I thot that stainless steel was confusing.
Sep 22, 2018
Kavik
5531
Sep 22, 2018
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14themoneyLol I know, right?
Anyway.... I have a few diamond stones already, i was hoping to figure out an actual rating on the ceramic more than the diamond in the first place. If it is finer than my current diamond plates (which I'd have to look up to figure out, some aren't labeled), then it might be worthwhile for me to pick up
With synthetic sapphire being around 9 on the mohs scale, it may be able to handle all the s35vn steels I've acquired lately, without worrying about the theoretical tearout of the Vanadium carbides
Sep 22, 2018
Kavik
5531
Sep 22, 2018
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14themoneyOkay, after a little more digging on Fallkniven's site, I'm wondering if we can assume all diamond plates they offer are 25 micron (every one they listed specs for was). And by that same logic, can we assume all their ceramics are identical too? The only one that actually listed specs was their ceramic/ceramic dual stone, model CC4. That one lists the black ceramic at 1 micron, and the white ceramic at 0.1 micron
So if this black ceramic were the same material used on the other stone, we would be looking at a 1 micron surface, or roughly JIS 8000, or ANSI 2000....or, to confuse things further, what Shapton would call between their 12,000 and 15,000 glass stones? 🤔
Sep 22, 2018
Tigerman
412
Sep 24, 2018
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KavikThere's been some discussion about Fallkniven's grit specs in the past. (Here's a link https://www.massdrop.com/buy/fallkniven-cc4-ceramic-whetstone/talk/1802988?utm_source=linkshare&referer=K3ZTS7 ) A guy emailed Fallkniven and they said they didn't really care about the exact grits, as long as their stones work. But I think grit ratings are less dependable than we'd like to think, anyway. I recently got a new Japanese water stone, similar to Shapton but not as expensive, and I was blown away by how fast it cuts AND what a polished edge it leaves. I guess it's great that technology is advancing, but if a stone can cut faster than its grit rating, while actually leaving a smoother edge, then what grit is it? Coarser or finer? It seems we have to rely on other people's experience of what stones work for a certain job. Anyway, you guys aren't alone in finding grit ratings confusing!
Sep 24, 2018
Kavik
5531
Sep 24, 2018
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TigermanYour comments bring a whole other level into this discussion....
First, let me say this: All abrasives, whether paper/stones/ceramics/diamond plate, are going to have some variance in size for individual particles. The best we can ever hope for is an accurate "average" for the piece. Even with ceramics, Fallkniven should be able to tell us that based on measurements taken from the scratch pattern they leave behind. Since SOME of their ceramic products DO mention it, they should be able to say for all. Joe Shmoe's version of "extra fine" might be my "medium". For them to just say it works tells me nothing.
But, on to the new stuff: Speed and grit aren't always directly related. Lower grid GENERALLY remove steel faster, but it's not always a direct correlation. I've owned multiple stones listed with the same grit, that do appear to leave similar scratch patterns under a loupe, that work at much different speeds. Therefore, based on the appearance of the scratch pattern, i'd say they're the same grit, but one is fast and one is slow. Then I've got this 2k stone that removes steel as fast as the 1k stones I've had, but leaves a finer scratch pattern. I'd still say that's a higher grit stone, and it's just a fast cutter, i wouldn't call it coarser because of its speed.
It's about the cutting ability of the particles used, not just about their size. It also has a bit to do with the material the abrasive particles are bound with, how much the abrasive sticks up above the surface, how quickly the binder wears, and how often new abrasive is exposed to the surface.
I do get what you're saying, i just think you're confusing matters when you say you'd consider a faster stone to be "working at a higher grit"
To me a whetstone has 3 main characteristics; grit rating, hardness, speed. All 3 have to be looked at together in order to guess at what the stone might be like before buying it.
-Grit is grit, if their ratings are accurate and you know what scale they're measuring by, that should tell you the level of finish it will leave. -Hardness will tell you how quickly the stone will wear, how much it will dish, how often you'll have to flatten it. Now, softer stones will release fresh abrasives more often, so they often work faster. But, depending on your usage and how flat you need it to stay, you'll spend more time flattening, half the stone will be wasted and overall it will just wear out quicker -Speed is the one thing that will always be subjective....but like i was saying above, you can find fast and slow stones all up and down the grit scale
All that long winded rambling aside lol What's the stone you got? Always interested in trying new ones that cut fast and are reasonably priced 😁
Sep 24, 2018
vynce
38
Dec 20, 2018
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14themoneyAccording to the so-compiled-and-named "grand unified grit chart", 25 micron would correspond to a Fine grit DMT plate and and approx 700 grit on the JIS scale. https://www.bladeforums.com/threads/the-grand-unified-grit-chart.856708/
Dec 20, 2018
Kavik
5531
Dec 20, 2018
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vynceThanks for sharing that link 👍 Yet one more thing to look at and scratch your head and wonder why different companies have such different ratings lol
Dec 20, 2018
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