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anterak13
22
Jul 15, 2016
To show I'm not that mad about MD, I just joined the ebony th-x00 drop. I just wish they'd put out that last one first I would have skipped the purplehearths (I like headphones with very crisp highs). Now I need to wait to get the purplehearths, resist opening the box, wait for the ebonys (hopefully within 2016), then sell the purplehearths and reinvest the money in a m9xx to finally get complete... These things take time.
Ian15
25
Jul 23, 2016
anterak13The difference between purpleheart and ebony are just aesthetics. Even if you replaced it with plastic it's not going to change the sound. Headphones aren't like a guitar where the wood actually resonates and produces sound. The sound in headphones is coming from the electronic driver.
anterak13
22
Jul 23, 2016
Ian15Since I'm going to have both I'm going to figure that out myself ;) but there should still be some sort of mechanical coupling between cups and drivers anyway, and you're right going for the black cups are also based on personal esthetics, cheers
Yakov
1420
Jul 25, 2016
Ian15Speaking from experience or a body-building forum
AaronAAaronson
32
Jul 25, 2016
Ian15Have you actually heard both? Because I have (at the SF Head-FI meet earlier this month) and they do sound different; not night and day, but the ebonys are more balanced. They are exactly like wood in an electric guitar where differences in sound will primarily come from drivers/pickups and more subtly from the resonant properties of the earcup/body. If you're not doing a careful A/B it's easy to miss.
Ian15
25
Jul 25, 2016
AaronAAaronsonYou don't understand how a guitar works. The sound of any stringed instrument comes primarily from the wood resonating, not the pickup. There would be virtually no sound for the pickup to pick up in the first place if the whole guitar didn't resonate. With headphones, the ear cups are not resonating to create sound like with a guitar.
AaronAAaronson
32
Jul 25, 2016
Ian15I'm referring to the quality of the sound, not the physics behind vibrations. Obviously a guitar without a body (strings between a nut and bridge) isn't going to vibrate enough for sustained sound. You're going to hear a greater difference going from pickup 1 in body wood A to pickup 2 in body wood A than going from pickup 1 in body wood A to pickup 1 in body wood B.
Ian15
25
Jul 25, 2016
AaronAAaronsonI agree that pickups make much more of a difference in terms of sound. In fact the type of wood makes very little difference even in an electric guitar. That's why I don't see how the earcups on a pair of headphones can make any real difference.
AaronAAaronson
32
Jul 25, 2016
Ian15Massdrop claims the only difference between variants is the wood used for the earcups, while Jude believes there's additional tuning involved. From a technical standpoint, the material used for the earcups absolutely make a difference in sound; I'm sure you agree that they would sound completely different if you removed the earcups entirely and listened to the drivers "open". Whether it makes a great enough difference going from one wood to another to explain the difference in FR that multiple individuals have measured and I have personally heard is impossible to say as people on the outside looking in, and I don't think you're wrong to be skeptical. At the end of the day, it's the sound that matters, and it's unfortunate that most people are not fortunate to be able to try both PH and ebony before making a final purchase decision.
Ian15
25
Jul 25, 2016
AaronAAaronsonThat's interesting, I definitely will read up on that. I do agree there would technically be minor differences but I would be suprised if anyone could pick one out over the other in a blind comparison. Personally these will be my first high end headphones and I bought them mostly because of LinusTechTips but I was interested in the headphones themselves. The wood was just an aesthetic to me. Now it seems people are more concerned with the species of wood than the actual specs of the headphone.
AaronAAaronson
32
Jul 25, 2016
Ian15I mostly hang around audio enthusiast communities so it's interesting to see how differently people are responding to the ebony drop. Most of the people in the drop comments aren't audiophiles so they freak out at the fact that a new version is "more" this or that than what they ordered without even knowing what it is that they want. There's some freakout in the enthusiast forums too, but it's mostly been due to the fact that the old FR graphs on the original PH drop page are way different from what they published on the ebony page. There's some good discussion in the measurements section at SuperBestAudioFriends.org if you're interested. I definitely heard a difference between PH and ebony, enough to feel confident about doing a blind comparison, but if this is your first higher end headphone you probably won't immediately notice the difference. They're a great first entry into higher end audio and all variants are very good sounding; I don't believe the vast majority of people buying these headphones have any reason to be disappointed simply because they bought the wrong earcup.
Ian15
25
Jul 25, 2016
AaronAAaronsonI spend a lot of time with music enthusiast communities as well. I play acoustic guitar and tone woods are a huge part of the sound. Ebony for example makes a great fingerboard. Purpleheart or Mahogany make a good body. It's not like I don't appreciate the differences tone woods make. But I just don't buy it when were talking headphone earcups. They are probably low grade wood laminate coated in several layers of gloss to the point where they are all pretty much the same. I do think there is some slight variations within all headphones , so maybe you really did hear a difference between the 2, but I don't believe it has anything to do with the wood.
AaronAAaronson
32
Jul 25, 2016
Ian15Yeah, I used to be active in guitar forums too, so I know where you're coming from with the guitar analogies. And again, you're right to be skeptical because we don't know anything about the quality of the wood, type of finish, etc. Everyone who actually cares is blindly assuming they're doing the same process here with the $1500 TH-900:

. But these are made by different people in different facilities, so who knows what's actually going on until someone with too much time overanalyzes the cups. All we know is that the different headphone variants measure and sound different, so if you have the ear for it you may indeed have a preference. Whether it's directly because of the cups or not is unknown and really shouldn't matter, but it's the only difference that Massdrop/Fostex are willing to admit to, which is why everyone is raising such a big stink about the wood. If you don't want another needlessly expensive and subjective hobby, I would avoid thinking about the differences and just enjoy the music these headphones make.
Ian15
25
Jul 25, 2016
AaronAAaronsonThat's a really interesting video. I actually had no idea Fostex put so much care into the woods of any headphone. Yeah I'm using Beyerdynamic Custom One Pros through a Schiit stack so I think these will be a huge upgrade. Thanks for debating the subject with me I I've learned a lot.
jimpx10
46
Jul 29, 2016
Ian15I agree with Aaron on the sound of the Ebonies, I also heard them at the SF meet. I have far from golden ears, but there was definitely a difference between them and the PHs, and I am comfortable I could do a blind test. It was noisy in the room so I couldn't make a good evaluation of the specifics, but the Ebony was, for me, noticeably smoother and more balanced. No idea if anything else in the headphone was tweaked, but if not then the wood made a surprising difference. I have an AKG KX77 and HE 400i and I am not sure if I will keep the PH (I have a low serial one on order) or go for the Ebony and sell the PH.
On a related note appearance, as is sound, is totally subjective, but I found the Ebony the least attractive of the three. I saw little to no wood grain, it just looked like a black shiny cup. Finally weight doesn't seem to bother me at all in headphones, so i didn't have any problems with the Ebony and it didn't seem heavy to me.
Ian15
25
Jul 29, 2016
jimpx10Yeah I'm sure you could do a blind test /s
Meru
52
Jul 30, 2016
Ian15Mate you can't be more wrong. Or you're actually right, for speaking for yourself, but definitely not for others.
Ian15
25
Jul 30, 2016
MeruI don't think people even understand how ebony and purpleheart affect tonal qualities. Ebony is very dense and heavy and has a higher dampening. It's not as acoustically resonant as mahogany or purpleheart. For example, you seldom see stringed instrument bodies made from ebony. You see it on the fretboard because it feels nice, or as an inlay because it looks nice, but I'm really confused why everyone is praising it when really a lighter cheaper wood like Spruce would be much better for headphones. Look at the wood Fostex uses for their $1500 TH900 - Japanese Birch. Ebony and Birch are polar opposites in terms of density and tone quality.
I think the Purpleheart and Ebony are mainly for aesthetics. If anything they would take away from the sound of the Mahogany, but to me I love the look of purpleheart and it's only slightly more dense than Mahogany.
Meru
52
Jul 30, 2016
Ian15Didn't take up any music instrument in my life, aside the compulsory recorder lessons, and didn't really spend time Google-ing into sonically stats other than those required for a review. Yet I with my experience will not downright deny the difference in SQ that for sure will happen with a different earcup, especially one with different density and etc. Any difference will make a difference, sorry for the pun, but it is a fact especially in head-fi. Take AKG's most acclaimed K701 and K3003 for example, my favourite example. The first few batches that were made in Austria sounds different, not entirely of course, with the ones made in China in the later batches. The stats are definitely the same, same materials as well, production methods and etc., but a difference has been made. "Smoother bass", "tamer mid end", "softer high end" and other tonality differences will definitely occur, unless those cheeky bastards are just putting on different coating of colours on the earcups.
Ian15
25
Jul 30, 2016
MeruWell that's totally different. Anything produced in China is made using Chinese metals which are very cheap and inferior to metals in America or Europe. Also, Austria pays their workers $9 an hour, China pays their workers $1 an hour, so you can't tell me they were produced the exact same.
I don't deny that there may be a difference between Mahogany, Ebony, and Purpleheart. But 1. I think in terms of sound quality, it would go Mahogany>Purpleheart>Ebony since mahogany is the most acoustically resonant wood out of the 3, and ebony is the least. 2. I don't believe anyone do a blind test between the 3 with much better than 33% accuracy. I'm no stranger to blind sound tests, as a guitarist I've done tons of light strings vs heavy, mahogany guitar vs rosewood, tube amp vs solid state, and even in these situations where the differences would be much more pronounced, it is still difficult to truly tell the difference in a blind test.
Also, you make an interesting point that they could just be using a cheap laminate of the wood and not solid mahogany/purpleheart/ebony. Even there was 0 difference between the 3 besides a paint job, you would still have tons of people claiming to hear a difference. That's why I don't take these kinds of people too seriously.
Inabit
59
Jul 30, 2016
Ian15Each type of wood has it's characteristic resonance and that interaction with the acoustics of the driver gives each it's unique sound. Ian15's comment alludes that more resonant = better sound. Not necessarily. The driver has it's own distinct characteristics which may be complemented, offset or exaggerated by a certain type of wood. Most audiophile speaker manufacturers design their enclosures to be as inert as possible in order to prevent interactions with the drivers. That, or eliminate the enclosure altogether (open baffle). Open back headphones follow this design, and that's why their soundstage is usually much superior to a closed back. A headphone with the THX00 driver will sound slightly different with each cup material. Better or worse is subjective, unless you are buying based on curves and graphs. If you want resonant, get balsa wood cups. For non-resonant, use concrete. The non-resonant THX00 can double as a neck strengthener.
Ian15
25
Jul 30, 2016
InabitYou're that with headphones resonant materials are not necessarily better. But looking at the TH900 which use Birch, and the fact that we don't make headphones out of concrete says to me that resonant materials are best. If you think otherwise then you should be looking at plastic earcups headphones not wood.
Inabit
59
Jul 30, 2016
Ian15Fostex chose Birch, either for it's particular characteristic resonance, the ability of the craftsmen who provide the Urushi finish, or both. They use other woods (TH610, THX00) , or metal (TH600) for differing signatures. Regarding headphones. my point is that it is the driver's interaction with the cup material that gives the sound and using a less resonant material may give a superior sound with a specific driver. Sound wise, there are many who prefer other TH variants to the TH900. Note that the less resonant ebony version of the THX00 measures flatter. That doesn't necessarily mean it sounds better, just different. Massdrop's is a marketing play on customers' appreciation of the sound and look of different tone woods. The Ebony measures closer to the Mahogany than the Purpleheart, even though it is the least resonant, so by the numbers, there is more in play here than the "resonance" of the woods. FYI, it is possible to design "plastic" with specific resonances (see RainSong Guitars), or with very little resonance.
qua2k
152
Jul 30, 2016
InabitGrado made 1 closed back headphone with whiskey barrels in collaboration with Bushmills. I own a custom Rosewood Grado and am very curious in how their Bushmills closed back sounds and also the construction of it. Sadly, they are extremely limited and sell for $700+ on eBay if they ever do show up.
Inabit
59
Jul 30, 2016
qua2kThere is a good chance that the Bushmills will sound different from your Rosewood, but not necessarily better. Years ago, Miguel Rodriguez built some classical guitars using the Rosewood from some old church doors. They are worth $$$ these days. How much because of the sound and how much because of the backstory is hard to determine. http://www.guitarsalon.com/store/p3914-1969-miguel-rodriguez-quotchurchdoorquot-cdcsar.html
qua2k
152
Jul 30, 2016
InabitOh I know the wood of the two will sound very different. I am just curious since it is Grado's first and only closed back design. My custom is open back so can't really compare the two IMO.
Pierre111
413
Aug 5, 2016
Ian15As a rule of thumb, it would be the opposite, resonance is something you want to avoid, if neutrality is what you're after. Concrete would actually be a good material and succesful design have been made with concrete speakers, but I hope you where kidding cause it's pretty obvious that concrete would be way to heavy for headphones, not becausez it's inert. That being said neutrality is not necessarly what everybody are after and the coloration added by resonance may be nice also. Designing musical instruments is an other ball game, cause the tone of the woodcontribute to the timbre of the instrument, can't compare the 2 process.
Ian15
25
Aug 5, 2016
Pierre111Then why use wood in the first place? Aesthetics.
Pierre111
413
Aug 5, 2016
Ian15Yes, Aesthetics, of many things but I'm not saying they are bad, but most wooden headphones you get to them for their character, their sonic color. All the headphones that are considered Reference, or neutral are not made of wood. That being said, the drivers are not flat neither, so sometime the combination can get great results. By the way I dropped in on the PH and I'm sure I'll love them, my comment was more to say that the resonant properties are not necessarly the selling point, unless a particular resonance is what the designer is looking for to get the sound he want and there is nothing wrong with that. The same way we use EQ, the Designer use the properties of the wood,
Nrde
12
Aug 11, 2016
Ian15The same way a speaker sounds different when it's made of different material. Speaker made of thin plastic sounds different than similar speaker made of thick, dense MDF. Different materials also absorb sound differently, meaning less or more sound bounces off (and back to ear) depending the material. Then it's another thing if if the material makes any detectable difference, but as mentioned here, it sounds like it makes a small difference at least.
Nrde
12
Aug 11, 2016
Ian15You make assumption that if a = good, then properties of a = good. The thing is that you don't know the exact dimensions, shape or thickness of any of the cups. Birch 1cm thick is less resonating than ebony 1mm thick, or I don't know maybe they could be exactly the same. But so can the thickness of PH cup be different from the of TH900's.
Also you indicate that because b is not used then b = bad or irrelevant. Maybe b is not used because same stiffness can be achieved much easier with other materials. Maybe absolute stiffness isn't even desired when it comes to headphone cups.
Please listen to "A Magical Journey through the Land of Reasoning Errors" https://skeptoid.com/episodes/4297
Ian15
25
Aug 11, 2016
NrdeI think you're just a sucker for marketing. The wood is mainly for aesthetics.
Nrde
12
Aug 11, 2016
Ian15I understand that, especially when my music is in MP3's anyway and couldn't tell the difference between the different models most likely. But I can't understand why you insist there isn't any difference/significant difference when there obviously is and wood is the only thing changing. Additionally, you haven't heard any of the th-x's yourself. You tell how you have played guitar for years and recognise the differences in the sound when different materials are used, I couldn't, for me a guitar is a guitar. The same way some people may appreciate the subtle differences between headphones made of different materials, even though most of the people can't tell any difference. You will have much better success convincing me that cabling/cord doesn't make any difference.
Ian15
25
Aug 11, 2016
NrdeI never said there is no difference. Just that I don't believe anyone could accurately do a blind test between the 3 as some people claimed.
jimpx10
46
Aug 12, 2016
Ian15I find it fascinating that you say that: "I never said there is no difference." Given that you said in the past:
- "The difference between purpleheart and ebony are just aesthetics. Even if you replaced it with plastic it's not going to change the sound." - "That's why I don't see how the earcups on a pair of headphones can make any real difference." - "I do think there is some slight variations within all headphones , so maybe you really did hear a difference between the 2, but I don't believe it has anything to do with the wood."
We can forego any discussions on blind tests, everyone knows they are problematic. But the bottom line is that I, and others, have done A/B testing on the Purpleheart and Ebony ( I spent a half hour). And there is absolutely a difference between the two, and it is not that subtle.
Perhaps you should follow you own advice you gave to another person: "How can he say he likes Ebony best when they haven't shipped yet?" and wait until you hear then before you comment on their sound and their differences.
Ian15
25
Aug 12, 2016
jimpx10Yeah, I admit I was wrong to imply there is no difference. I agree any change in the design or materials would cause some change in sound. However, the question is how subtle is the change and is it really audible to the human ear? I still think the wood is mainly for aesthetics. But honestly, I don't get why people are taking so much stock in my opinion. It seems every time I log into Massdrop there is a new reply waiting for me...I have no interest in continuing this discussion.
KTMD
195
Aug 12, 2016
Ian15There's always a new response for you because to many, this is a hobby, and with hobbies you, should be passionate about it. If you check the subreddit for headphones, there's a whole forum there dedicated to showing off brand new purchases, discoveries and just plain talking about headphones. Personally, I welcome people discussing the truth and facts. This is so subjective. Some people hear and perceive something totally different from someone else and graphs. A lot of comparison comes from what people have experienced and which is limited. You get the truth seeker that'll drop thousands trying to find out what's real, you get the person coming from gaming headphones and experiencing open back for the first time, and lastly, you get the person that just bought an SHP9500 and thinks it's audiophile grade.
I feel the reason people attack you and down vote you is due to the incorrect information. Just because you play guitar for years and so and so. Yeah I've been following... Wood has different properties and does different things. That's why it's universal. A lot of people were trying to correct you and help, but you ignored their advice and facts. Wood is used for a reason and that's due to its musical properties, qualities and cost. There are magnesium, plastic, carbon, resin and other driver housings, but wood has tonal properties and they're distinct. Look at Audio Technica's lineup. They have the same drivers, but in different enclosures. Wood, open back, and closed. All sound different.
spressa
43
Aug 12, 2016
KTMDWhat a great response and I couldn't upvote you any more. I get into arguments like this with people all the time.
KTMD
195
Aug 12, 2016
spressaThank you. I appreciate it. I get into arguments too often on Reddit as well and I feel where you're coming from. As long is the truth is out there, that's all that matters to me. Way too many people make uninformed or unresearched decisions and it deters them in the long run; just because someone said such and such. It's a fun hobby and everyone deserves that smile/grin from their first moment of truly enjoying music and hearing things they've never known existed. I'll never forget my first time with some open back cans and hearing breathing from the background. I missed that so many times in my listening- I was shocked and hooked.
Ian15
25
Aug 12, 2016
KTMDNo offense but I really don't put much stock into so called "audiophiles" opinions.
I wasn't being stubborn. I respected the opinion of people who actually made an intelligent argument such as the guy who linked the Fostex TH900 manufacturing video. But most the of the responses were your typical audiophile circle jerk such as "I listened to all 3 at the last audiophile meetup and I'm confident I could do a blind test".
KTMD
195
Aug 12, 2016
Ian15http://www.head-fi.org/t/788776/fostex-x-massdrop-th-x00-review
So page 1 Jude has had all versions of these at hand, moedawg nails it, SuperBestAudioFriends and Massdrop all advertise that each version sounds different. Maybe that guy who said they'd be able to blind test all 3 and be correct was right.
Ian15
25
Aug 12, 2016
KTMDMaybe, but I don't believe it. And if there is, I would agree with that Jude guy that it is due to a difference in the driver, not just the wood.
Also, are you really making the argument based on advertising? Like I said, you guys are suckers for marketing.
KTMD
195
Aug 12, 2016
Ian15Um, even with marketing you can bend words so they work in your favor, but you can't lie.
I'm just so dumbfounded that you'll fight this and the community with your whole heart in its entirety. What's surprising is that there's actual data - graphs and you'd sit here saying the housing doesn't affect the frequency response. I'd like to argue, but just thinking how it's easier to claim driver changes over wood changes would be your excuse. Jude said he felt like the drivers were tuned because the wood obviously made that much a difference.
Meru
52
Aug 12, 2016
KTMDMate you sounds like those guys in headfi giving wake up slaps to scientific graphers all of the time. I appreciate your effort.
KTMD
195
Aug 12, 2016
MeruI tried. If I'm wrong, I'd admit it and sincerely apologize. I also hate those people who have answers to everything and didn't want to be that. It is what it is. I give up. I'm just excited to get these in 4 days and see what people think about them.
Ian15
25
Aug 12, 2016
KTMDI'm just skeptical. But go ahead and eat up the marketing and graphs; it's your money.
My initial comment was a response to the people who were freaking out that Massdrop released an ebony version when they already had ordered the purpleheart as if they were a totally different headphone. I already said there is undeniably a slight difference in tone based on wood, but those graphs don't prove that it's a difference that is audible to the human ear.
KTMD
195
Aug 12, 2016
Ian15I hope you get to try all 3 one day then. This isn't all snake oil like AudioQuest Diamond HDMI cables.
Meru
52
Aug 12, 2016
KTMDI still remember the memes Linus has made in his video 😂 Anyway you have tried your best, ignorance is a bliss for those who gets help offered but does not give a damn about it. Met enough people telling me objective dac and amp are the best for their HD800s.
KTMD
195
Aug 12, 2016
MeruI'm surprised I even got noticed to be honest. I've never really followed Linus much. Always wanted to because he's a good reviewer, sounds like I need to now for the memes.
As for the HD800 people, it's crazy that they would spend that much on a headphone but skimp out on what drives them.
Ian15
25
Aug 12, 2016
MeruYeah ignorance is bliss. I will enjoy my purplehearts unlike the people who are losing their minds because they can't cancel their PH and switch to ebony.
Ian15
25
Aug 12, 2016
KTMDI think Linus is the reason a lot of people purchased the THx00. I know it was the main reason I got them.
KTMD
195
Aug 12, 2016
Ian15I saw his video on the THX00 and also Zeos', but I knew about the headphones a long time ago. I'm glad they get exposure that way, massdrop knows it too. I just missed the very first drop because I couldn't justify if I needed a semi-open wood headphone. The Purplehearts were a blessing though. I was looking for a heavier U/V shape and the wood looks gorgeous.
Ian15
25
Aug 12, 2016
KTMDI think anyone with a Massdrop account knew about them when they were first released. But Linus is what convinced me to buy them. And I chose the purplehearts purely for looks.
KTMD
195
Aug 12, 2016
Ian15I don't know why, but I never got any notifications for these until the last day of their drop. I saw pop-ups all over Reddit and Headfi though. Even on eBay they were reselling for $50+ over their drop price. That was before the market got saturated.
If you haven't seen Zeos review of them on YouTube, I think you'd enjoy it. He's different.
Meru
52
Aug 13, 2016
KTMDBecause the amp provides enough power during certain decibel, more power headroom than provide spec sheet and et cetera et cetera. People just came into one thread, complaining their 800s, or even LCD2/3 sounds incomplete, then pissed at all the "heavenly expensive" options fellow headfiers suggested to them. Then spent another day taking datas and calculating power requirements and graphs and same old shite every time. My god.
KTMD
195
Aug 13, 2016
MeruI can't tell if that's better or worse than the "I drive my planars from my Onkyo receiver and it does just fine!"
The struggles.
Meru
52
Aug 13, 2016
KTMDOr better
The numbers on the spec sheet say that they should sound the same on certain pc sound card A and certain tube amp B unless there is engineering error or spoilt drivers. I should be able to drive it without spending another pair of 800s on amping. You guys are pure maniacs to spend half a HE-1 on wires and dac and amp.
Generally the "friendly discussion" doesn't stop until someone is fed up and suggest some cheap Schiit combo and call it a day. CIEM community is far better in this regard.
fjrabon
456
Aug 18, 2016
Ian15this is spoken 100% like somebody who has never heard a headphone with different cups. The idea that you could replace it with plastic and it would sound the same is laughable. Yes, the cups do in fact resonate on headphones. The idea that the only thing that matters with regards to headphone sound is the driver is just preposterously silly.
Add that to the FACT that these differences have been measured, and you just seem to be willfully ignoring basic evidence.
fjrabon
456
Aug 18, 2016
which beyerdynamics?
KTMD
195
Aug 18, 2016
I have Beyer DT880/600s and DT990/600s, these THX00 are completely different. Now it's just trolling.
KTMD
195
Aug 18, 2016
Even with the 770s being closed. Beyer has a distinct sound signature. Usually the treble is hot and fatiguing and the bass is heavy. They use the same drivers, just different coiling amount for ohms and housing for the cup openings. What happened to the material doesn't matter and similar things should sound the same?
zbells
234
Aug 18, 2016
Lol, I don't think anyone is calling you out for your opinion of the headphones. I think they're calling you out for thinking that the type of wood used in the cups makes no difference. Most people agree that it does make a difference. You also seem very stubborn in your opinions even though you haven't heard the different TH-X00 variants and are basing everything on assumptions. Who knows, you could be right, I haven't heard the TH-X00 with all three cups either... but I won't back myself into the proverbial corner on this issue without having all the facts firsthand.
fjrabon
456
Aug 18, 2016
I mean the DT770 has a measurable difference of about 8dB more than the THX00 PH at 10kHz, I mean I don't know what to say if you can't hear that, cymbals should cut much sharper on the DT770 than the THX00 PH. Those are relatively similar sounding headphones, as far as headphones go though overall, it's not going to be a stark difference. You can get to a similar endpoint with a lot of different methods. You can make a plastic cup headphone sound similar to a purpleheart cup, if you make other compromises to the rest of the design to compensate.
To put it in terms that may make sense to you, it's like if you take a maple-capped superstrat, you usually pair that with warmer pickups, while a basswood strat will typically be paired with chimier pickups. It's not that the wood didn't make a difference, it's that the designer compensated. Or the designer could decide to go for a really bright, cutting guitar, with a maple fretboard, bright pickups and a brighter body wood. With guitars, the designers are more or less unrestrained int he tone they can seek, because there's not a clear guiding reference point.
With headphones, we are talking about subtle flavorings, that absolutely exist, but are definitely subtle, because there is a standard of seeking some amount of neutrality (unless you're making Beats). And, again, this has all been measured and replicated by multiple non-affiliated people with measuring rigs. ANd if you listen critically enough, you will certainly start picking up on the differences. Since you play guitar, ask any engineer you record with if the speakers or headphones they use to mix and master can make things sound different, Every single one will tell you yes.
I don't care if you don't think cups resonate. They do. Not a ton, but enough to create different tonalities. Some designers aim to totally cut out resonation, some aim for euphonic resonation, some just sort of do it by gut. You brought up the TH900 before, they use a more resonating wood, but they also damp them with dynafil to cut down on midrange resonance.
My guess as you get more used to the differences between the THX00 PH and DT770 is you'll start hearing the differences more clearly, especially that huge spike the DT770 has at 10kHz.
KTMD
195
Aug 18, 2016
Um, they do use the same driver. I actually respect Zombie, he's on Reddit too. So I've been through his thread and it only describes sound, not the hardware. The only differences are the amount of coiling the wire has affecting the ohms, the cups having a different opening; closed, open, semi open, there's a foam baffle in there that's different for all and a white plastic ring. Sennheiser also did the same thing. I believe the 558, 598, 600 and 650s use the same driver. The 650 might be an outlier because they're hand-matched and so on.
You seriously don't know what you're talking about. I know they all sound different. The fact is, the material used affects the sound. Sounds similar to the THX00s having variants in wood. Hmm.
Ian15
25
Aug 18, 2016
fjrabonYeah you're probably right. I think I'm already starting to hear more differences between the 2. I almost find the THX00s most fatiguing to listen to, but maybe I just have to get used to them.
That is also a good point that headphones are aiming to be more or less neutral, where guitars are creating their own tone. Never thought of that.
Ian15
25
Aug 18, 2016
zbellsI never said it makes no difference. There HAS to be some difference when any material or design is changed. But I just thought because headphone earcups resonate so little, the differences between the 3 would be minuscule. My original point was that the difference between the 3 isn't enough to warrant people losing their minds when they couldn't switch from PH to ebony.
But some people have made some good points (fjradon, Aaron) that maybe the point of the wood is to reduce resonance and that more resonance isn't necessarily better. And then some people (KTMD) just make the audiophile community look bad...
KTMD
195
Aug 18, 2016
Ian15Wow, appreciate how you just attack me since you can't prove a valid point. All these people keep trying to tell you something and your stubbornness and ignorance is just impeccable. I applaud you for being hard headed and lacking experience with headphones. Kudos to you sir for being the Sword In the Stone that wasn't worth anyone's time and effort.
Ian15
25
Aug 18, 2016
KTMDOkay yeah you're right I guess they do use the same driver with like you said foam, baffles and plastic to change the sound. Using different wood is not the same as going from open to closed back though. And I've already said that I agree materials used affect sound..not sure why you keep going back to this. Anyway, I have my THX00's now so probably won't be using Massdrop again. not sure how I feel about them but they are alright I guess.
Ian15
25
Aug 18, 2016
KTMDYou're the one who kept accusing me of making the claim that different materials make "no difference". I was just skeptical that the difference would be enough to do a blind sound test, or that it was enough to warrant getting upset at Massdrop for not letting people switch woods. I never said materials make no difference. Any change in material or design HAS to make some difference.
KTMD
195
Aug 18, 2016
Ian15That's the thing though, I'm not mad at you or anything, nor am I trying to prove a point. I just want you to be open minded and positive about the constructive things people say. We're not trying to bring you down, and it's a shame you probably wont use MD again. It's a great platform that can still grow. Little things affect everything in the headphones. You said before that the woods would be so subtle that it probably wouldn't make a difference aside from aesthetics. It does, it'll affect bass, treble and all of that, you just need to know what to look for. That's why people got into a flurry, the Ebonys seemed to be a refined Mahagony, while the PurpleHearts were for bass and fun.
I brought up the info for Beyer, just to show that little things can make something into a different product. You attacked me trying to prove I was wrong, and I wasn't. All these other people try to open your eyes and give you clues about what you should look for. Take Fjrabon. Dude is huge on Headfi. Almost every post he's there. Tried giving you cues what to look for. Sure, it may not be your flavor, but don't bash a headphone and belittle it because it sounds like your DT770.
KTMD
195
Aug 18, 2016
Ian15Massdrop said day 1 and before day 1, they wouldn't let people switch to the Ebony. The Mahog - Purp was a one time thing, which I got into. They even kept teasing the 3rd variant would be the final one. People were arguing with you over your claims for woods and guitars, resonance and all that, and your claims for spending thousands on musical instruments.
People can hear differences. Subtle or not, some are blessed and can, some can't. My hearing is still okay, so I can. Your posts were deterring people from experiencing something new. You were attacking everyone trying to defend yourself when they were trying to correct you. You even called me out for being an issue to the audiophile community. I'm just trying to help those, like you, and you took that as an assault of yourself. I'm done, this is my last post of this. Enjoy your headphones, or not, they're a great pair and I find mine to be extremely fun to listen to.
Ian15
25
Aug 18, 2016
KTMDI said that these headphones sounded similar to my DT770's and Fjrabon agreed that while similar there are differences and explained them well. That is the kind of informative answer that I appreciate.
Your response was:
"you're just trolling at this point"
That's the kind of response that makes you look like a dick.
KTMD
195
Aug 18, 2016
Ian15It was true, you were so stubborn to facts and opinions that you had to be trolling. No one is that ignorant. I've never seen anyone get downvoted so much in all of Massdrop, but you've successfully done it.
KTMD
195
Aug 18, 2016
Me sensitive, over headphones? Sure. You tried putting everything down about them, every single one of your posts had nothing positive. So you tell me.
Ian15
25
Aug 18, 2016
KTMDDid you make the headphones or something? It's not a personal attack on you, it's just my opinion man. Calm down.
Ian15
25
Aug 18, 2016
KTMD
search
seems like it was just a few people who take personal offense at my opinion.
KTMD
195
Aug 18, 2016
Ian15And to many who read posts for research and it's their first time buying expensive headphones, you just put out so much of the wrong info. It's a deterrent for people wanting to try new things. I know it's not a personal attack, I never took it as one. I'm not whiteknighting this, but if it was my first purchase and I saw what you've been saying, I'd have steered clear and never had to chance to try this and see how good it really was.
KTMD
195
Aug 18, 2016
Ian15Still attacking me, I'm done, you proved my point. You didn't know what you were talking about and you were abrasive to this thread as a whole. Also, that's what happens when someone responds to you, you get a notification.
Cheers!
fjrabon
456
Aug 18, 2016
Ian15I think the biggest issue some people had was you coming in and speaking definitively about things you didn't have that much experience with. Anyway, no worries, seems you are starting to get it all sorted out. And yes, these headphones are well known for having one of the biggest differences after break in. Seems to be something about the bio-dyna drivers. Look forward to hearing your impressions after they've burnt in for a bit.
Think of it like you're entering this new world, where some people are very versed in the differences between headphones and the subtleties; to us these differences are very obvious, while to you it may not be. It would be like if one of us came over and picked up a Les Paul and a Telecaster and said "oh, they sound the same to me." and It would likely drive you insane and you'd point out what are to you very blatant differences. But to somebody "new to the game" a telecaster and a Les Paul through the same amp on the same settings will sound virtually identical, they would only notice a difference if you used a tube screamer on one and played the other clean.
Snoopchicken
32
Aug 18, 2016
fjrabonDo you have any experiences with this and the TH-900? I'm thinking of making the upgrade... but some are persuading me it may not be worth it. For example, in Jude's review, he says the Purplehearts sound closest to the TH-900, which is making me think that if I change the pads on the Purplehearts to the TH-900 pads, they may sound even more similar. Any thoughts?
Ian15
25
Aug 18, 2016
fjrabonYeah I think I've learned my lesson. That's a great example as well haha, I can definitely see why I sounded so ignorant. I'm really starting to like these headphones, definitely prefer them over my DT770s now. Also very happy that there are no bubble wrap marks or scuffs anywhere and they look awesome. DHL and Canada Post did a great job for me.
fjrabon
456
Aug 18, 2016
SnoopchickenWith the TH900, what you are paying for is meticulous quality control as much as you are sound quality. You're paying to have a person, by hand, closely inspect every inch of the finish, to have ultra-precise driver tolerances observed, somebody is going to check over the assembly and make sure everything is smooth and tightly fitted. To my ears, if you do the Lawton mod on any of the THX00 line, you get pretty close to the TH900, with maybe a tad bit less sub bass (that can easily be EQd back in if desired).
If you want a big leap forward in sound quality, your money is best spent elsewhere. If you want a precision, hand-crafted statement piece, that's the TH900. I actually prefer my EMU Ebony cup Lawton mod THX00 to the TH900, but I've also put a lot of time and effort into getting them that way.
Snoopchicken
32
Aug 18, 2016
fjrabonOk thanks, that's kind of what I expected. As for amps, do they also make a big difference in sound quality? I'm currently using a Schitt Magni/Modi stack, and I'm kind of unimpressed with these headphones so far. Could it be my setup is inadequate? Because when I plug them straight into my laptop... I can't really tell the difference in sound quality (if I put the volume up high) in comparison to the Magni/Modi.
fjrabon
456
Aug 18, 2016
Snoopchickenwell, it depends. First and foremost it depends on how good your headphone jack from your laptop is in the first place. Some of them vary wildly. If you aren't hearing a big difference between your headphone jack and the modi/magni, I wouldn't expect a miracle with higher end gear, the modi/magni is pretty good with these. How long have you had these? How long have they spent playing and how long have you been listening to them? I'd say give them a month or two before you worry about upgrading from the modi/magni. Your opinion may change over time.
anterak13
22
Aug 19, 2016
Ian15Actually in a solid body guitar the wood subtracts energy from the vibrating string in various frequency ranges that are characteristics of the wood in question. Stringed instruments being passive systems, where the only source of energy is your picking hand, the body can only produce energy losses. For acoustic guitars the body is used as a resonator an top for projections, but they only convert/waste energy.
Ian15
25
Aug 19, 2016
anterak13Without the body, the string doesn't move enough air to make any sound. I agree with what you are saying, but I don't really understand your point here.
anterak13
22
Aug 19, 2016
Ian15Yeah my point was that cups must in some way absorb energy at different freqs depending on stiffness and shape and some how shape the sound. It would be interesting to build granite caps for the th-x00, that would be closest to an ideally stiff cup that dissipates as little as possible :) who can negotiate a deal with a tombstone maker?
Eudis
42
Aug 19, 2016
anterak13Or just remove the cups, nothing to reflect on.
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