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View Full Discussion Dear Customers, It’s with great regret to inform you that as of this time the group-buy from BSP is cancelled. We apologize for the inconvenience this has caused everyone involved. If you are affected please take the time to read the following details of our situation and our plans moving forward.Our intention to run a BSP group-buy to the end has always been a top priority, and we can only hope the following explanation will help to detail how this buy has failed. In February of this year our team used a broker to develop relations with BSP Asia, Logicalkeyboard, to provide us with blank keycaps for our group-buy projects including single 1u caps. With our brokered relationship with BSP appearing secure we proposed our first group-buy for high quality PBT dyesub reissues of classic Cherry keycaps. The reception of this group-buy was very popular and we quickly procured samples of a dyesub product through our contacts. After posting the sample images our group-buy expanded globally. We were encouraged by the public reception of our samples and excited to offer these high quality sets. The months which followed became a nightmare which ultimately lead us to today.After collecting all the orders from all of our vendors globally and submitted documentation through our broker we received no response. We began to seek further clarity and reached out to BSP, Logicalkeyboard, directly. When direct communication was finally accomplished we were told PBT keycaps are no longer an item which can be ordered . We really wanted to make this work for everyone - the members, Massdrop and the design of the keycaps.After all, BSP keycaps is one of the most authentic cherry sets for keyboard enthusiasts. In the end, after long sessions of communication our offers to increase the MOQ, and even offers to purchase the molding from Logicalkeyboard were ultimately ignored.
We feel a great deal of remorse and guilt in cancelling this group-buy. We were unable to reissue caps or save the old original Cherry pbt mold. As we have come to know, BSP sublimation keycap production is very expensive outside of Europe. Changing international trade climate high postage and tariffs between Europe to Asia makes reopening relationships impossible. While we are apologetic we also have a plan to resolve this problem in the long term. We are launching a new product we will call H(ammer)SP. Our goal is to retool and improve upon the best features of what made BSP keycaps a true legacy product. For those who wish to remain in our group buy we are offering two complete the sets of HSP for each set of BSP ordered; one set for your original order, another will be the never-sold Cyrillic or Hebrew dye-subbed set. The Hebrew and Cyrillic sets will be distributed randomly, For example, if an Arabic set was ordered a customer would receive either a Cyrillic or Hebrew set in addition to the Arabic. The difference in between the original order and HSP is the keycaps will not be made by BSP. We will also offer refunds for anyone in the group buy who would like it, please reach out to Massdrop Support for the refund/cancellationThe HSP keycaps are similar to the BSP in profile, feeling, and color. In addition to doing our best to recreate these qualities we have improved the following defects we felt were not a feature of the product:
This announcement has not come without a considerable effort from team Hammer to fix the issue before causing a problem for enthusiasts. We have already completed the injection molding, finish, and production proofing. The performance of our manufacturing is very satisfying testers who work closely with Team Hammer. By moving to the city which the injection factory is located we have had a hand in adjusting the fit and finish of the products coming out of our custom molds.To be clear about our plans for production after completing our duty to existing customers we will have four sets planned for regular release: Original Tulip \ Tulip GK \ APL \ Arabic. Our price for future group-buys will be announced soon and set a new standard for affordable quality.Sincerely,Team HammerSep.,6,2018# Thank Binge for helping proofreading!
- Normalizing R4 height to Cherry standard while retaining the BSP R5 standard.
- ISO layout support.
- WK layout support.
- 6U, 6.25U, 7U pbt spacebar support.
- A variety of four homing key molds: bars, scoops, dots and no homing.
Wow, that's quite the update. I'm staying in the group-buy. I want high-quality PBT products to exist with the highest quality dye-sublimation possible, that is comparable to OG Cherry.
Because things are moving forward with HSP already, I am wondering if it can offer added compatibility moving forward -- a 1.75u R4 Shift would change things IMMENSELY for HHKB, 1800 and 1800CP, 65%/75% layout users. I have many other changes to suggest for added compatibility, like GMK sets do nowadays, but just the 1.75u Shift key (and a 1u R4 Fn key) would make a huge impact already.
I ordered quite a few sets as well, so if the addition of "one additional set per BSP set ordered" is true, then I would end up with a couple of extra sets, with possible repeats. I am wondering if Desko and Peacock will also come back. There's also Blue and Green Hebrew; Blue Cyrillic as well.
Thanks, Team Hammer, despite the unfortunate circumstances for working hard to bring quality products to the enthusiast community.
Seconded for the 1.75 R4 Shift, compatibility would expand significantly with that one key.
Thanks for clearing that up.
1. Is there any updated time line for this? New ETA?
2. Is there a cut-off date for those who want to cancel
3. Is everything included in the base-kit? If so, are the icon modi kit + color kit being refunded?
4. For those who ordered multiple sets (ordered 3 myself), if i chose to stay, is it possible to secure to get at least one of the hebrew + one cyrillic?
5. Is it possible to send a review-set to Anthony (001keyboards)? He look very closely into products and have handled a lot of different PBT sets. I think a lot of customers would feel better if he approve of them.
6. There was also a big price difference between the different sets. Will this remain or will the future kits be closer in price? If so, will the difference be refunded?
Came back to say:
- Please no banana shifts
- Please no warped spacebars or long keys
- Added compatibility is the best
I love good PBT dyesubs. Make PBT great again.
Of course we made 1.75 r4 shift, forgot to show it in pics.
Thanks for supporting!
If you have any OG Cherry sets around... do compare the top surface texture to them ;) If OG is 10/10, BSP was 9/10. We should aim for the 10, not any less.
And yay for short shift and no banana keys!!!
I will let some people do this job.
My view has no credibility.
Thank you very much for your helpful reply sir, you've helped me think a lot. Massdrop and I is dealing with these, I want you guys see how HSP looks like to decide cancel or not.
As others have suggested,Anthony at 001keyboards (https://www.twitch.tv/001anthony) would be a great reviewer who has the credibility you seek. Is it possible to send advanced production sample to test?
Also, just to be sure, the sample picture shows both alphas/mods as same color (may just be the picture)... will you be matching to the BSP color?
Of course it will match bsp color, the caps are in same color because we are testing molds, it's okay to send a blank sample to 001 if they agree to help us.
No one would drop this question but i will. now that the situation are like this, is there a possibility for those people who wasn't joining this GB (because of the compatibility) to join now as the compatibility issue has been fixed (at least for me)?
I'm curious to know what your rating is for newer PBT dyesub products e.g. EnjoyPBT?
I ultimately joined this drop to receive something that came out of the old Cherry molds (otherwise I would have just picked up a bunch of ePBT sets). Now I'm unsure whether to stay or cancel.
It would be really funny if HSP ended up being priced lower than the ePBT sets in stock on KBDfans.
*edited for context
EnjoyPBT, despite having much wider compatibility and availability, *feels* subpar to the quality of dye-sublimated keycaps from original Cherry keyboards and the (imsto-run, Hammer-dyesubbed) BSP sets. I'd call OG 10/10; BSP about 9/10...; and ePBT would fall in the 5.5-6/10 range for me.
You can see in these posts here that the quality of dye-sublimation that Team Hammer used to provide for their BSP sets was quite superb: https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=74405.msg2024804#msg2024804 and https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=64188.msg1842207#msg1842207
I can also say from experience that both OG Cherry and BSP sets have felt wonderful to type on, despite the nipple F/J homing keys feeling worse than the famous Cherry-profile scoops. EnjoyPBT can be pleasant too, but they do feel much more textured, more similar to that of the rougher HHKB/RF Topre-OEM sets.
My main concerns with EnjoyPBT sets are (1) the cap's top texture (very important; it is much, much rougher compared to OG or BSP, even), (2) inconsistent/fuzzy legends (like having a thicker S and thicker f in the word "Shift", than the rest of the letters) or varying heights of where the text is dye-subbed, and finally the degree of warping on long keys on PBT, although admittedly, BSP was infamously known for the "banana shifts" and 7u spacebars were never made in PBT.
Firstly I back everything LightningXi @Meowgo stated.
Secondly, good on you to move forward and work toward finally bringing back high quality Cherry profile dyesub PBT back to its former glory. I support the idea 100% and very much look forward to seeing how it develops. It has immense potential.
I feel much better with your encouragement.
I'm impressed by your response to vendor difficulties - that's serious step! Should set you up nicely for future projects though, which is wonderful for you, the community as a whole and for folks like me who really like your aesthetic.
Absolutely staying in, and very interested to see the end results.
Thanks for the update, although these are very sad news. Two questions:
1- Can't you guys try to source the caps from BSP Europe, even if that implies that we pay more than the original agreed price?
2- Is there no chance that if we stay in the GB we can actually choose between Cyrillic or Hebrew for the extra set?
Thanks a lot for the update! Although it's a shame that the original buy fell through, hopefully the silver lining is that even better keysets come out as a result! I am $100% staying in this GB.
I wish Desko was an option for the second set and that we were able to choose which one we received. However I do appreciate that would be logistically very difficult.
I'm staying in as I have no doubt team Hamm3r will come through with very high quality caps as they do with anything they produce, plus getting a extra set for free can't hurt either.
My question is if BSP is not making the keycaps anymore what are they going to do with the Cherry moulds also what will they make if not keycaps? Granted I don't know what else BSP makes other than keycaps.
I think they don't care about that old wraped mold, I even said I wanna buy that mould but they answered nothing, I think they have already thrown it away, that's why I wanna make HSP.
They are Logicalkeyboard making keyboards now.
We will re-open a new HSP group buy later in same sets.
I am staying in the groupbuy. I trust you are making something great out of this situation.
As for my order. I ordered 2 sets, Apl and Arabic. Could I get both cyrillic and hebrew so I don't end up with two of the same kind?
Second, I ordered both extra Mod kits. Will there be a refund for these or a price reduction etc?
We will make the mod kits with HSP.
Is it possible to partially cancel orders? I dont want to pay BSP prices for modifier kits. Also will there be partially refunds for the price differences? Arabic was like 140 and tulip gk 180, i assume there wont be a $40 price difference between hsp arabic and tulip gk?
Thanks! When will you have updated pictures/renders with all included keys shown?
Also, can you please try to take 1 high resolution picture of the surface of 1 HSP keycap (preferably with dye sub) and post that as well?
You ate right, we need to refund the people who bought mod kits and reopen them in HSP GB.
And the difference of price comes from difficulty of front dyesubing and Tulip sets have some extra keys.
Our team is talking about the details these days.
Very excited to hear about update.
Happy the project is carrying on, rather than to cancel the whole thing due to BSP blanks not being available.
Cyrillics for everyone, please!
when will the GB for international peeps open? since the GeekMaker GB has started. I would rather get a refund and get in for 1 set of HSP rather than get 2 sets at this point.
I am seeing that the Chinese GB is open -- can you please support split backspace? Mainly the following keys circled in the image below. I believe this will be a make-or-break aspect for many, many people, because the new HSP has promised added compatibility, and split backspace is crucial for many layouts, especially HHKB-style.
Split backspace support is ESSENTIAL
Split shift without split backspace is blasphemy for HHKB God. Also R3 Ctrl.
Definitely need split backspace for me to join.
Absolutely need that split backspace. If it's not there, I can't use it at all.
In fact we are working on this in these days:)
That's great! Given this extra compatibility stuff, what will the base kit look like? It seems all this compatibility could get expensive quickly. For original group-buy participants, would we have to pay extra for all this, since they are completely new kits?
@XiK Hey guys! Sorry if this has been asked before but I had a question.
If you had more then 1 order of BSP in the original drop, do you get that many equivalent free sets?
1 BSP order = total of 2 HSP
2 BSP order (within the same transaction) = total of 4 HSP
3 BSP order = total of 6 HSP
I ask because some people ordered 3 BSP keysets. HSP keysets are around $95 in the China GB happening right now so the "free" set is really just because HSP is that much cheaper vs the $180 or so we paid per BSP keyset. So if they ordered 3 keysets, they should received 3 "free" keysets.
If this is not how it works, can those people modify their orders to only 1 keyset? So they originally ordered 3, get refunded for 2 sets, and stay in the drop for 1 set (but still get their free set) or will they have to cancel entirely?
Any update? BTW, since these sets are now HSP, would it be possible to just the receive the sets I ordered but with a 50% discount plus discounts for any add-ons no longer available?
Edit: Never mind. I see my questions were previously answered.