Infinity ErgoDox Ergonomic Keyboard Kit Discussions | Drop

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Infinity ErgoDox Ergonomic Keyboard Kit

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Infinity ErgoDox Ergonomic Keyboard Kit

Subodai

Jul 16, 2015

I'm sorry but after the deception of this drop which quite frankly belongs on Kickstarter, I will not be used as fuel for R&D. If it had been made expressly clear that this item was basically being kickstarted, and not that this was the usual kind of drop, my attitude would be very different. I know some of you think that's fine, and that's okay, if you're happy that's great. I however am not. Massdrop is a place to allow people to get 'better' (sometimes) prices on items by buying in bulk, not for funding the R&D or effectively kickstarting new products. This keyboard is obviously not finished, or close to a finished state at this point. So I'm afraid I'm out.
I've applied for a refund on this one sadly, and I don't think I'll be purchasing anything else through massdrop again.
The quite frankly ridiculous postage charges and terrible support when things go wrong have really put me off, it's taken over 2 months to get an incorrect item shipped out to me, and even then I've been lied to. I was told they had it in stock but all they've done is waited for the next drop to finish to send me another unit.
You need to sort out your UK postage costs on just about all your items, because what you're charging is downright unfair.
Sorry massdrop, it was fun while it lasted.

Ziggurat

130

Jul 16, 2015

SubodaiOkay, okay, okay. You are right to not want to fund an unfinished product. But you can not say that this product is not close to being finished, when the drop started this product was being made ready for mass production, and what held it back was that some vendors failed quality assurance. Now they are waiting or have received new first articles of a new vendor, and if it is of quality mass production will start.
I researched this product and the ErgoDox family extensively before joining this drop, and it was apparent to me the state of the product, and I am very aware that hardware production more often than not takes more time than planned. It was not before the delay I realized that this information was not present in the description of this drop.
Had I not been aware of this I might have a different attitude towards this drop, but there is nothing here that is not expected for me. It be nice if they were a bit more transparent with follow up information.
Now in retrospect; are people not glad that this drop has a strict QA?

Tzaphkiel

Jul 16, 2015

ZigguratYes hopefully, the QA will deliver.
What about the software/firmware side of things? We have not had any updates on it from @Haata for a while now...
Oh Btw: " @ Haata" does not list him anymore... why is that ?

Kaan

297

Jul 19, 2015

TzaphkielThere were some serious accusations/observations on the infinity drop regarding the components/design: https://www.massdrop.com/buy/infinity-keyboard-kit/talk - a fellow user digged deep into the pcb/design after experiencing some issues
So a QA/QC is indeed warranted - If I was in this drop, I would be glad the design is changing - it would have been great if the designers were around to answer these concerns - the infinity's share a lot in common, you guys will also have these teeny tiny SMD's that are likely impossible to re-solder/replace if issues occur - it would have been great if larger SMD's were used with datasheets provided - it would be great if the designers of the PCB address some of these concerns - for example, are the components really used out of their boundaries?
I'm guessing HaaTa is working on the final touches for the firmware for ErgoDox, as he stated at the github discussions of the firmware

Rambonobo

207

Jul 20, 2015

SubodaiI've been Massdrop since the beginning, and the quality of service has deteriorated as they've gotten bigger. Lately, you've got to balance whether you want to save $10-$20 and wait 6-8 weeks or get it shipped via Amazon in 1 or 2 days.
Where I do think you're wrong is that this product is actually the perfect product for Massdrop. You cannot get it anywhere else, and they're leveraging their size to get something neat built. However, the issue of time expectations, unhappy customers and deceptive practices needs to be addressed.
Time is money, and we've all put our money down with an expectation of getting a product shipped late June. I think it's only fair that for every month that the product is late, everyone should get 10% off their order. I fail to see the point of a refund at this stage; I could have had an ErgoDox from one of the other people out there 2-3 months ago, but instead I went in on this. So, not only am I out of pocket, but I've wasted my time.

Vilhjalmr

Jul 20, 2015

RambonoboI have to disagree with you there. Having a monetary penalty to MD for every month late would make it more likely to be pushed out the door regardless of quality issues. I would rather have a quality product late than have a broken product on time.

bprotas

Jul 20, 2015

RambonoboYeah, I don't think this is quite right. For this product, it's not a choice between saving money vs. waiting - it's a choice between getting something that is literally not available anywhere else for a reasonable price or spending _significantly_ more or maybe not getting anything at all.
On this drop, it's only a matter of applying some common sense - June 29th was a laughably aggressive ship date. As others have noted, a good bit more communication earlier on would have been really helpful and appreciate here, but I, for one, am still excited that Massdrop is taking the initiative to try to monetize projects like this.
Others have compared this experience negatively to a Kickstarter, but I actually think that this is very similar to and in many ways better than a Kickstarter. This is a very aggressive iteration on a thing that Massdrop has done before; similar to a Kickstarter, there are unknowns, and only basic prototypes, and the timelines are more likely to slip than not. However, at least Massdrop has done ergodox-like things before, and knows how to get this stuff actually shipped when it's done.

gromwalh

Jul 20, 2015

bprotasThis guy gets it. In addition, I'd much rather put my money down here than on Kickstarter. With Massdrop I am explicitly purchasing a product. Although there may be delays, I will eventually get my order or receive my money back in the unlikely event that my order cannot be fulfilled. As I understand it, on Kickstarter you're basically giving the project managers charity and hoping that they follow though. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm not aware of any recourse for the contributors if a Kickstarter project fails and the contributors don't get the rewards they were promised.

Rambonobo

207

Jul 21, 2015

VilhjalmrOr it might encourage MD to make realistic timelines. I think for the majority of drops this problem isn't an issue. The item is delivered to MD, and then shipped. Even in this case, I think had MD been more realistic with the delivery schedule it wouldn't have been an issue. I still would have gone in on this drop had the ship date been end of August. Other people might have acted differently.

Rambonobo

207

Jul 21, 2015

bprotasI've defended MD previously where keyboards took longer than expected to ship, and then they were held up in Customs coming in from China. In that case, I think MD did everything they could, and they had to deal with issues outside of their control.
In this case, they made the "laughably aggressive ship date", and some level of corporate responsibility needs to be shown to demonstrate that when you make a delivery promise to a customer there needs to be some follow through.
MD are not Kickstarter, and I don't think there's much point comparing them. MD is a known quantity that normally deliver. I have been involved in 49(!) drops with MD, and in my opinion for these types of "venture" drops where there are unknown quantities (i.e. time, delivery, research, etc), the customer needs to be informed of the risks and people need to be held to timelines.

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teslajr

Jul 21, 2015

gromwalhFrom my one experience with Kickstarter, which failed, i was given a refund on my contribution within about a week of the campaign ending.

Hplog

Jul 22, 2015

teslajrA Kickstarter campaign that fails to be funded is not what this is being compared to, but rather a funded Kickstarter campaign where the project abscons with your money instead of delivering a product.

gromwalh

Jul 22, 2015

HplogYes, thank you!

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retinator

Jul 23, 2015

RambonoboIn general, I'd agree with you. MD could have been much more open about issues, especially as they were unfolding, and given us updates along the way.
But I think it was kind of obvious from what I read before I joined the drop that many aspects were not quite figured out. I, at least, did not expect late June to be a hard deadline, but a best estimate given their expectations. I usually double whatever seems to be a reasonable estimate and it turns out alright (in this case, April - June would be 2 months, 2 months more bring us to the new date of August).
Should the organizers have estimated better? That would have been ideal... But they had unforeseen issues. Based on what I had read before joining, I'm not at all surprised that we still don't have our Ergodoxes. In other words, I think the customer was informed that there could be some risks.
As for holding to timelines, Alex made it clear that people are free to withdraw from the drop, if the delays are an inconvenience. Otherwise, I'm glad they're fixing the problems and wouldn't expect to pay less for a better quality product than they originally had planned.

AustinBrister

Jul 25, 2015

retinatorHonestly, it wasn't obvious to me at all. I'm not a keyboard guru, hobbyist, junky, etc. I'm just a regular guy that likes to fiddle with some high-tech gadgets. I was interested in getting a more ergonomic keyboard, and after a Google blackhole I ended up here. I thought two months or whatever was a long time to wait, but took the plunge.
Now you're saying things still needed to be developed? How would I know that? I didn't think MassDrop was kickstarter. I thought the ergodox was already created years ago. There are even pictures of a completed ergodox, and pictures of other infinity keyboards. What is there to develop? PCB redesign? What are you talking about? There are photos of a completed and finished ergodox on the main page. This is even sold as a no-soldering, so I thought it was especially friendly to people that don't understand what goes into creating these keyboards. I thought this thing was ready to go, but for the mass order.
Honestly, I'm not even looking for an answer. These points simply illustrate a non-tech-genius perspective. I'm still extremely excited to get this keyboard. But now I hear people saying the keyboard might not even work well for a while because additional development and troubleshooting will need to be done? Damn..... that's disappointing.

Rambonobo

207

Jul 25, 2015

retinatorGreat that we have some agreement. That said, I'm fairly comfortable in my criticism of the adherence to timelines, and I'm not in the business of being an apologist for failures when they occur. I don't multiply deadlines because I expect businesses to be realistic in their time estimates. People are free to do whatever they want, but as I indicated, I'm not interested in a refund, but in a keyboard. Consideration should be provided for people who aren't happy with what's happened, and I don't think that's been done.

elpeterson

213

Jul 26, 2015

AustinBristerI'm exactly as you described, however I did actual research into ErgoDox which inevitably lead to the Infinity development. The product page alone talks about the history of ErgoDox and the Infinity team, a team that creates keyboards from scratch. They took an existing keyboard design and wanted to create a fully programmable pair of keyboards that worked as one. If you stopped there and then invested over a hundred dollars into a product...I don't know what to tell you. If you did even one Google search for Infinity Keyboard and ErgoDox you would quickly find that this board isn't complete.
Also, contact MassDrop and back out if this isn't what you expected. It is as simple as that.

AustinBrister

Jul 27, 2015

elpetersonIt's not about the money. It's the fact that I haven't had a decent keyboard in months. Also, you never pointed to anything that actually says this keyboard was not developed yet. The fact that infinity develops keyboards from scratch only evidences your point if Infinity has never finished a keyboard.

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Subodai

Jul 27, 2015

gromwalhWhile yes if a kickstarter goes south you have no guarantee of getting your money back, you know that's what you're signing up for in the first place. You know you're backing an incomplete product/item/idea to help get it going. Massdrop is supposed to be a 'shop' with 'buying power' created by the weight of it's users. And as for them just giving you the money back, I received the following from support when I asked for a refund initially.
"Thanks for reaching out! Unfortunately, we can’t cancel and refund orders after the drop has ended because we have already collected your money and sent it to the manufacturer. When submitting large orders, we’re not allowed to return individual units for refunds. "
So your idea of, if we don't get it we get a refund... I'm not sure that holds solid ground... It's also laughable, as I also asked for a refund on another items and got an immediate yes, no questions asked....
I'm not even going to get into the fact that Massdrop might be crossing some online purchasing lines here regarding cool-down periods.. Especially with how long it takes from payment to item delivery. If you pay with Paypal, beware... after that 90 days is up it's quite difficult to force a refund. I would make sure you purchase directly with your CC so you have some protection and can charge-back if things get nasty (I'm not saying they will, I'm just making a point)
He did go on to say "However, if you truly need to cancel your order, I can make a one-time exception for you. Please let me know if you need me to do so, and I can get it processed for you"
It makes me feel like they know there is an issue with this drop, and due to the high per-member value of a contributor they don't want to let people out of it before the item arrives.
As I say I'm not purchasing anything else from MD now, their UK postage costs are a joke. I'll be keeping an eye on this drop to see where it ends up (if it ever gets there).
Good luck with your Kickstarter guys.

elpeterson

213

Jul 27, 2015

AustinBristerBelieve me, I agree with you. I am frustrated. I have serious wrist issues that made this a necessity. I was excited to find a mech ergo board to replace my damaged Natural 4000. And I guess you are right, without looking deeper into this I can understand getting the impression this was finished. I had bought other things off MassDrop but for whatever reason I assumed this particular drop was similar to KickStarter. Mainly I guess because I knew the ErgoDox was a project of a small group of people that was taken on by another small group of people.

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elpeterson

213

Jul 27, 2015

SubodaiThat actually isn't true. If this product fails, you are issued a refund. However that isn't the nature of this site the same way it is with KickStarter. And as far as the no refund, you are 100% able to get a refund but you do need to push for it. It is against policy to backout after the drop is completed however given valid reasons you will be issued a refund. I just received mine for the Infinity 60% drop.

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kravlin

Jul 27, 2015

AustinBristerInfinity isn't a company, it's the model, it's the Infinity Ergo Dox because it's similar to the Infinity keyboard, which was also designed by Input Club. The ErgoDox is the original model that was designed by Dox. The Infinity ErgoDox is a redesign of the ErgoDox with a bunch of additional features.
Input Club has finished keyboards. They finished the Infinity, which has dropped successfully on massdrop https://www.massdrop.com/buy/infinity-keyboard-kit?s=infinity <- here.
If you're going to attack people, you could at least get their names right, or pay enough attention that you know who you're attacking.

retinator

Jul 28, 2015

AustinBristerThis post is one of several that led to my opinion that I was joining a drop with an uncertain ship date:
https://www.massdrop.com/buy/infinity-ergodox/talk#!175190

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AustinBrister

Jul 28, 2015

kravlinAttack people? I don't think I've attacked anyone. I just don't think this was a well-informed massdrop. After reading your comment I'm still confused, so unless we're mega-enthusiasts, which you appear to be, these things probably aren't that apparent. I am a consumer, not a keyboard expert.

kravlin

Jul 28, 2015

AustinBristerI'll admit it wasn't as well informed as it should have been, but saying that the people behind it have never shipped a keyboard isn't even close to true. They've both successfully finished and dropped a keyboard before.
And I'm nowhere near a mega enthusiast. I just like to know this stuff before I buy.

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Iaeen

277

Jul 29, 2015

AustinBristerHonestly, I think you should back out of the drop while you still can. You clearly got into this drop without understanding what it is. The ErgoDox keyboard has always been a tinkerers DIY type kit, and the Infinity version isn't going to be any different (in fact, it will probably be worse until after the second or third time it drops). As long as you consider yourself to be strictly a consumer with no interest in learning how keyboards work, you should probably stay away from kits.
For the record, I am not a "mega-enthusiast". I'm not even a regular enthusiast. This is actually my first non Apple-Bluetooth-slab keyboard that I have owned in a while, and it will be my first mechanical keyboard ever. I know what I know mostly from reading the discussion here and on the original ErgoDox drop. There are plenty of people here who are aware of what's going on without spending hundreds of hours on keyboard forums. Just because you weren't well-informed when you joined doesn't mean the information wasn't there or that Massdrop hid the facts from everyone.