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Showing 1 of 29 conversations about:
Vigrith
4081
Jul 29, 2016
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YifeiAre you an electrical engineer and/or have you extensively auditioned the Kenzie? I'd be curious to know what your impressions of it are a little more in-depth than patronizingly categorizing it as snake oil.
Yifei
14
Jul 30, 2016
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VigrithWell ignoring the terrible placed input, output and power jacks and the volume control that is 1 inch away from a hot tube. Lets read some of their selling points "The custom-wound ultra-high-quality output transformers deliver an extended frequency range" no transformer will ever extend the frequency range, " the 1626 offers a transparent, natural sound with just the right amount of warmth and sweetness." ok a transparent and natural sound isn't what tube amps produce they color it (make it warm) which is the entire point of using a tube amp, and it adds sweetness to the sound whatever that is. I'm not saying its a bad amp, i don't know how it sounds, but paying $1500 for something that you don't know how it sounds, have a terrible layout and which main selling point is a mixture of complete bs contradictions and obvious facts is just complete madness, this is something only someone who is completely sold on audio snake oil would buy, but sure you go ahead and buy it and make sure you use with the other snake oil products you probably have like the silver cables for your headphones that does nothing for audio quality
Vigrith
4081
Jul 30, 2016
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YifeiI won't buy it, even if I were looking for a new amp to purchase this would not be it. The point you make regarding the badly placed is acceptable, I wouldn't want my volume knob to be sitting right next to a tube either but the remainder of your post is a little questionable don't you think.
Saying the entire point of a tube amp is to colour the sound and that tubes cannot be transparent or accurate is wikipedia knowledge. My entire point was if you have no input regarding what the amp sounds like, which you have now said you do not after I asked because you'd already classified the amp as 100% snake oil and implied massdrop are idiots for putting it up, then you should be a little careful how you word things in order to not look foolish. You cannot make a blanket statement like that and not be able to provide hard evidence other than just debating their use of terminology when it comes to describing something as subjective as the sound of music and "lol bad input placement".
I find it sad when people find the need to pretend they are omniscient to try and make others feel worse about their purchases. One thing is trying to inform and help people in a reasonable and knowledgeable way that _in your opinion_ headphone cables do not have an impact on audio quality whatsoever (I'd ask if you've A/B'd identical headphones with identical WAG 100% copper vs hybrid/silver to come to that conclusion but I doubt I need to), another is being completely obtuse when you have next to no experience with the product at hand. It's not informative and it shows an immense lack of tact and discredits your opinion no matter how much merit it would otherwise have.
Saying the entire point of a tube amp is to colour the sound and that tubes cannot be transparent or accurate is wikipedia knowledge. My entire point was if you have no input regarding what the amp sounds like, which you have now said you do not after I asked because you'd already classified the amp as 100% snake oil and implied massdrop are idiots for putting it up, then you should be a little careful how you word things in order to not look foolish. You cannot make a blanket statement like that and not be able to provide hard evidence other than just debating their use of terminology when it comes to describing something as subjective as the sound of music and "lol bad input placement".
I find it sad when people find the need to pretend they are omniscient to try and make others feel worse about their purchases. One thing is trying to inform and help people in a reasonable and knowledgeable way that _in your opinion_ headphone cables do not have an impact on audio quality whatsoever (I'd ask if you've A/B'd identical headphones with identical WAG 100% copper vs hybrid/silver to come to that conclusion but I doubt I need to), another is being completely obtuse when you have next to no experience with the product at hand. It's not informative and it shows an immense lack of tact and discredits your opinion no matter how much merit it would otherwise have.
Yifei
14
Jul 30, 2016
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Vigrithjust because something is snake oil doesn't mean its bad, yes silver wire works just as well as copper and is in fact more conductive but it costs much more and if you use pure silver it will suffer from metal fatigue that's just science, just as this amp amplifies sound and outputs it to headphones, it is going to color the sound that's just a fact you have to deal with when you buy tube amps and when you buy something for $1500 you expect it to be designed well and be well thought out, this thing isn't, it looks more like a kit amp with a hefty price tag, and a quick google for 1626 darling amp which is what this is based on reveals that you can make one yourself for around $30! or buy one of ebay for around the same price THATS LESS THAN THE SHIPPING COST OF THIS DAMN THING, so do you still think this is a reasonable priced amp or does it fall into the category of snake oil?
Sherwood
93
Jul 31, 2016
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YifeiI don't know how you would make one for $30. The 1626 tubes are $30 on their own, the PCB is $60, and that's before any casework, iron, or components. My guess is $400, bare minimum. That's still a lot cheaper than the Kenzie, to be certain, but I'm curious where you're getting your numbers.
Yifei
14
Jul 31, 2016
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SherwoodWell most people who make their own tube amp don't use PCBs they just mount the big components to the case and then just solder any smaller components directly to the bigger ones and connect the rest with wires, making a case from some wood and a piece of cheat metal wont cost that much. I found the 1626 tubes for as low as $5 each and the 12SL7 for $3 so $13 for tubes, there were some people on various forums talking about good cheap transformers and power caps which are the biggest cost, then its just some resistors and smaller caps that costs a few cents each. If you then go with an alps pot instead of a generic one that's another $10 so it will end up costing $40 for the entire amp.
And as i said you can buy a 1626 darling from ebay, one of the listings is an auction and the current highest bid is 25 euro, there's also a second one for 42 euro which is a kit both are sold from germany.
And as i said you can buy a 1626 darling from ebay, one of the listings is an auction and the current highest bid is 25 euro, there's also a second one for 42 euro which is a kit both are sold from germany.
fjrabon
456
Aug 1, 2016
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Yifeiso, to be clear, you could maybe build a very crappy one, painstakingly doing point to point soldering, for $40? This is like me saying that I could make my own shoes for way cheaper.
Tubes for $5 each almost certainly means they're not well matched, as any seller with a good matching rig is going to charge $3-4 markup for their matching service (which is well worth it). In my experience, having built a few amps, with builds you get what you pay for. If I'm interpreting your build costs, you allocating $3 for the transformer? That's silly for a transformer, a decent one is going to sprint past the $40 you are listing for the total build, let alone the $3 you allocated. I don't think you could build a good sounding starving student for $40 BOM, let alone a Darling build. Granted, you could get a good build for probably $200ish. But you could also hand build a pair of Grado GS1000e for like $200 as well, but nobody calls them snake oil salesmen for charging $1000+
I also don't think you at all understand the "snake oil" metaphor you keep using, which is part of the issue. You said:
"just because something is snake oil doesn't mean its bad"
what the snake oil metaphor implies is that the benefits of the product are completely imaginary. ie a salesman selling colored water to treat ailments and advertising it as "snake oil".
"how much do the parts cost?!" is one of the most annoying things people do in HiFi price critiques. The sound is either worth the price or it's not. TO be honest I do think the Kinzie is a bit overpriced, but it does sound good, and Darling builds are underutilized, IMHO. Sure, it would be a good project if you're an experienced DIYer and you could maybe save some cash (and spend a lot of time as well). Which brings me to the last point: DIY as a way to save money is only worth it if you put next to no value on your time. Even if you're an experienced DIYer, a good darling build with casework is going to take you around 20-30 hours (Looking up the parts, ordering the parts, getting everything together, actually building the amp, watching youtube videos for parts you're unsure about, reading forums when you aren't sure where a ground goes, casework, etc). If you make $50 an hour, the hidden cost here is that you spent $1000 on labor that you didn't pay yourself. Which is why DIY is a hobby instead of a money saving method. If you enjoy building amps, that's great, you're doing something you love AND you get a cool product at the end. However, if you view DIY amp building as work, it's a terrible way to try to save money.
Tubes for $5 each almost certainly means they're not well matched, as any seller with a good matching rig is going to charge $3-4 markup for their matching service (which is well worth it). In my experience, having built a few amps, with builds you get what you pay for. If I'm interpreting your build costs, you allocating $3 for the transformer? That's silly for a transformer, a decent one is going to sprint past the $40 you are listing for the total build, let alone the $3 you allocated. I don't think you could build a good sounding starving student for $40 BOM, let alone a Darling build. Granted, you could get a good build for probably $200ish. But you could also hand build a pair of Grado GS1000e for like $200 as well, but nobody calls them snake oil salesmen for charging $1000+
I also don't think you at all understand the "snake oil" metaphor you keep using, which is part of the issue. You said:
"just because something is snake oil doesn't mean its bad"
what the snake oil metaphor implies is that the benefits of the product are completely imaginary. ie a salesman selling colored water to treat ailments and advertising it as "snake oil".
"how much do the parts cost?!" is one of the most annoying things people do in HiFi price critiques. The sound is either worth the price or it's not. TO be honest I do think the Kinzie is a bit overpriced, but it does sound good, and Darling builds are underutilized, IMHO. Sure, it would be a good project if you're an experienced DIYer and you could maybe save some cash (and spend a lot of time as well). Which brings me to the last point: DIY as a way to save money is only worth it if you put next to no value on your time. Even if you're an experienced DIYer, a good darling build with casework is going to take you around 20-30 hours (Looking up the parts, ordering the parts, getting everything together, actually building the amp, watching youtube videos for parts you're unsure about, reading forums when you aren't sure where a ground goes, casework, etc). If you make $50 an hour, the hidden cost here is that you spent $1000 on labor that you didn't pay yourself. Which is why DIY is a hobby instead of a money saving method. If you enjoy building amps, that's great, you're doing something you love AND you get a cool product at the end. However, if you view DIY amp building as work, it's a terrible way to try to save money.
Yifei
14
Aug 1, 2016
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fjrabonwell I'm just saying that its possible to build a darling for $40 YOURSELF not paying someone else to do it, yes it takes time, time is money, that doesn't change the fact that people who build tube amps themselves do point to point soldering and perhaps you missed the part where i said you could buy a kit for 40 euro, yes i know the dollar is worth less then the euro. But if you do it yourself or buy someone else's you can at least get it with a good layout and a cover for the transformers something that you apparently don't get with a $1500 amp. And just because its hand built in the states doesn't mean it needs to cost this much the O2 from mayflower is hand built and that's $120 yes its less work to build a O2 I know, I have built an O2 and a few other solid state amps and audio switches myself because I didn't like how they would clutter up my desk with all the wires coming out the front.
And if you value your time so much how much did it cost you to read reviews about this amp, figuring out if you have a pair of headphones that will sound good with this amps sound signature, or perhaps you need to source some other tubes for it, now you have to research that. Or did you just say "Oh that's expensive it must sound good I'm gonna buy that"?
About calling the Kenzie snake oil, have you read the description? They say that adding a transformer widens the frequency range, that's not whats its used for so by your definition its snake oil. Its still a good amp with crap layout and you can still go to ebay and buy a darling that someone else built that will sound pretty similar to this one assuming they built it correctly and its using the same tubes for a hell of a lot less than $1500 or $1650 which is what its supposed to cost.
Same thing with silver headphone cables that promises various improvements to sound quality that any electrical engineer would laugh at, or perhaps my personal favorite snake oil "gold plated toslink cables to prevent corrosion" because using plastic would have been to easy.
And if you value your time so much how much did it cost you to read reviews about this amp, figuring out if you have a pair of headphones that will sound good with this amps sound signature, or perhaps you need to source some other tubes for it, now you have to research that. Or did you just say "Oh that's expensive it must sound good I'm gonna buy that"?
About calling the Kenzie snake oil, have you read the description? They say that adding a transformer widens the frequency range, that's not whats its used for so by your definition its snake oil. Its still a good amp with crap layout and you can still go to ebay and buy a darling that someone else built that will sound pretty similar to this one assuming they built it correctly and its using the same tubes for a hell of a lot less than $1500 or $1650 which is what its supposed to cost.
Same thing with silver headphone cables that promises various improvements to sound quality that any electrical engineer would laugh at, or perhaps my personal favorite snake oil "gold plated toslink cables to prevent corrosion" because using plastic would have been to easy.
fjrabon
456
Aug 1, 2016
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YifeiI have never seen a darling Kit for anywhere close to $40, or even $100 if they included casework. Where are you seeing these kits you're talking about? When I looked at doing a Darling amp a while back, it was around $250 when I priced out the BOM I wanted. I'll agree it's probably overpriced a bit, but I still think your $40 claim is absurd unless you are buying absolute crap parts all the way around. Even then it doesn't seem possible, and again, I've priced a build on a Darling before.
Mithrandir41
4
Aug 1, 2016
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YifeiActually it says "the custom wound transformers provide extended frequency response", I.e. you don't get low-end or high-end rolloff due to lower quality out put transformers. All high-end amps typically use custom wound transformers. It's no different then a headphone manufacturer saying that their headphones have extended frequency response. Simple fact is, you are paying someone to build you a nice amp with (some) custom parts, in a nice walnut and ebony chassis.
Yifei
14
Aug 1, 2016
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Mithrandir41and how exactly would a low quality transformer with the same primary and secondary winding and the same core make your audio have low-end or high-end rolloff? I'm curious please explain
Mithrandir41
4
Aug 1, 2016
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YifeiEverything matters in a build. What type of wire used,shielding, etc. you're obviously a hard-core objectivist, and that's all well and good. Save your arguments and your money.
Yifei
14
Aug 1, 2016
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Mithrandir41well if i were spending $1500 on an amp i would probably like to see some third party measurements or a/b blind test with a good size sample group to see that what I'm spending my money on actually matters for sound quality, and if you're talking about silver wire you should probably go ask an electrical engineer about it and have them explain why it doesn't matter
Mithrandir41
4
Aug 1, 2016
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YifeiIn my case, I heard it in person at a meet against at least a dozen other amps, with my own headphones. There's no substitute for hearing for yourself, especially with competing models on hand.
Yifei
14
Aug 1, 2016
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Mithrandir41so did you test 2 of the same amp 1 with custom wound transformers and 1 with high quality factory made? was it a blind test?
fjrabon
456
Aug 2, 2016
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Yifeiso you're only buying amps that have been double blind tested with parts switched in and out? What amp, exactly ARE you buying then?
Yifei
14
Aug 2, 2016
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fjrabonNo, read the conversation, i asked him if he could present any proof that there is a benefit to custom wound transformers since if its a selling point it should probably be proven that it does something so you're not just paying for snake oil, he couldn't so since you're so fond of defending this amp why don't you find some proof in the form of some testing or A/B listening comparing custom transformers vs factory made transformers. AND I NEVER SAID IT SOUNDS BADLY and i never made any claims it was poorly made i simply stated that the placement of the inputs and outputs are crap, that the volume control placement is stupid since its next to a hot tube and its normally not sold for $1500 its $1650, the measly 9% price drop is something many have complained about and YOU said YOURSELF that you the bom cost for for a darling you wanted to build was $250.
So lets say that the Kenzie costs $500 in part including shipping them to ampandsound (for the sake of some back of the envelope calculation). So where does the rest of the $1150 go? lets say it takes an experienced builder a day to assemble it, so lets say he earns $300 a day. We still have $850, where does that go? its not into r&d since its a preexisting design, its not into marketing (never seen and ad for the amp or company), so profit? this makes their profit margin for this amp 51.5% (for reference the average for a company is 14.5%, usually this is a lot less for electronics company's whose name isn't apple) I'm not including the investment cost for tools for engraving and winding custom transformers because i have no clue what that would cost or how many Kenzie amps they are predicting to sell during the product life cycle since that affects how much of the cost of each sold amp needs to be allocated into tools.
So conclusion, everyone agrees the amp is overpriced, everyone agrees the layout could be better, I'm calling snake oil until someone actually comes up with something proving that custom transformers actually does something which is what this whole argument started with.
And I still haven't made any comment about how the amp actually sounds because i don't have an opinion of that. The only way to get one is to listen to it and I don't have one, I don't know anyone with one and I'm certainly not going to buy one. So don't say I'm talking about it from a point of ignorance, i have only given my opinion on things I can find facts about like that you can build a cheaper one yourself, not saying it would be equal to to the Kenzie but it would be based of the same design electrically.
And its not irrelevant that you can build or buy an amp based on the same design since the only reason companies like ampandsound gets away with selling it at this ludicrous price is because they don't have competition, if they had they would either go bankrupt or sell it at a more competitive price.
"Competition is good, it makes us strive to do better."
So lets say that the Kenzie costs $500 in part including shipping them to ampandsound (for the sake of some back of the envelope calculation). So where does the rest of the $1150 go? lets say it takes an experienced builder a day to assemble it, so lets say he earns $300 a day. We still have $850, where does that go? its not into r&d since its a preexisting design, its not into marketing (never seen and ad for the amp or company), so profit? this makes their profit margin for this amp 51.5% (for reference the average for a company is 14.5%, usually this is a lot less for electronics company's whose name isn't apple) I'm not including the investment cost for tools for engraving and winding custom transformers because i have no clue what that would cost or how many Kenzie amps they are predicting to sell during the product life cycle since that affects how much of the cost of each sold amp needs to be allocated into tools.
So conclusion, everyone agrees the amp is overpriced, everyone agrees the layout could be better, I'm calling snake oil until someone actually comes up with something proving that custom transformers actually does something which is what this whole argument started with.
And I still haven't made any comment about how the amp actually sounds because i don't have an opinion of that. The only way to get one is to listen to it and I don't have one, I don't know anyone with one and I'm certainly not going to buy one. So don't say I'm talking about it from a point of ignorance, i have only given my opinion on things I can find facts about like that you can build a cheaper one yourself, not saying it would be equal to to the Kenzie but it would be based of the same design electrically.
And its not irrelevant that you can build or buy an amp based on the same design since the only reason companies like ampandsound gets away with selling it at this ludicrous price is because they don't have competition, if they had they would either go bankrupt or sell it at a more competitive price.
"Competition is good, it makes us strive to do better."
Boboso52
3
May 1, 2019
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YifeiThis is an old thread, but this company makes great amps. I have the next version up, the Kenzie Encore. You get what you pay for. If someone enjoys an inexpensive $300 chinese amp, that’s ok, but if you have the resources to buy quality, quality wins out with me everytime. That’s how Jason, the owner of ampsandsound can offer a transferrable lifetime warranty.
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