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In a similar way, you can compare how this chair stacks up to other mesh chairs, leather chairs, racing, etc in different use cases such as gaming, office work, lounging and so on. There are some well known work chairs and everyone's racing chair is basically the same so there is a solid basis for comparison. This entire concept isn't exactly new...
The posts here are no different than amazon reviews, and that is as good as it will ever get with regards to direct product feedback and experience.
Seriously, I can only see comparisons to common chairs that everyone has a good chance at being familiar with. Like, if I say the seat cushioning is about as fatiguing as an airplane seat cushion, but more supportive of the head and easier to fall asleep in while sitting up (and of course it reclines further), then that reference might give someone else an idea. Airplane seats aren’t glamorous, but most people have had to sit in them, and they‘re pretty well designed considering, but could use some improvement. It wouldn’t be a numerical benchmark, but at least it would be based off a common reference. Using other office mesh chairs and racing chairs would NOT be a good comparison, because only reviewers would have any familiarity with specific models. This is evident in your feeling that all racing-style “gamer” chairs are the same, while manufacturers deem there is plenty of variables to account for beyond mere size and color differences, within that bucket seat style, and consumers sometimes comment on their upgrade/downgrade experience.
Maybe you feel like I’m derailing from your question, but I feel like I gave it some serious thought and you the only viable answer. You won’t find a frequency response graph or % comfort over time graph for a chair, though that’s what it sounded like you were asking.
Hell cars are also the same way. If you want to dive even deeper in the rabbit hole, some sites dedicate an entire section on comparing car seats in comfort and supportability across make and models. Its still niche but for something like this where its bought sight unseen, it makes sense to get one out there. I'm curious why you and Evshrug are against this. More knowledge is good for the consumer and you guys are twisting a good bit of common sense just to make your points. No sane person wants a % graph and to assume that shows either a clear lack of understanding or a willful ignorance of the premise. Both concern me.
Truth be told I was actually a coin flip away from pulling the trigger on this but some flags are being raised here so I'm going to hold off until I see more comments here.
Audio is by no means objective either, other than knowing when a particular product is severely underperforming. While there are obviously people who can tell the difference between headphones that cost $500-$2000, it would only be a subjective analysis by the end user. The major difference in that hobby is that there are few brands and models in existence, which makes direct comparisons easy (when people ask for direct comparisons between models).
Cars are comprised of entirely empirical data. Obviously there are differences in 'feel' and quality of construction, but everything mechanically related can be contained on a spec sheet. Pure numbers to make comparisons by.
Most importantly, there is no enthusiast market here like cars and audio to proclaim what is bad or good. People can own and modify multiple cars or various audio equipment at any given point in time, but not chairs. You only get reviews and comparisons to make judgements because enthusiasts in those hobbies are very likely to have subjective and objective assessments across a wide array of models. Nobody is against reviewing chairs here, but it seems you show a lack of understanding or willful ignorance of the premise of 'reviews'.
The only thing you're ever going to hear about a chair is "Does it function? Did it fail? Is it comfortable?" And all you're going to get are basic answers to those questions.
Audio is indeed subjective and yet many rely on reviews. (Thats the point I was making...) The same is true for cars (most purchases are emotional/word of mouth and not objective). There are tons of different brands for both. You are talking out of your ass. I'll give your post a full reply later but man what an sorry state its in.
Chairman: I want reviews (Massdrop should give out samples).
Me: There’s some reviews here already.
Chairman: Benchmarks like for computers make a review professional.
Me: Computer benchmarks are based on numbers [and the only numbers here are in the product description]. [me thinking aloud:] I suppose a review that compares chairs to a common reference chair could be more useful? [maybe there’s something like that in some of the Massdrop discussions?]
Chairman: Are you trying to intentionally derail this? I want a benchmark, like comparing this chair to well known chairs.
Cyphre: There’s no way to objectively compare chairs [other than compare the specs of a chair, which isn’t really a review]. Look at the reviews here, they’re the best you can expect.
Me: Yeah, I agree with cypher, the reviews here are about the best you can expect. Also Chairman, you said what I said about comparing well known chairs... we had the same thought, and it would be nice.
Chairman: No, I don’t want subjective observations. You can’t justify something subjectively. Something unspecified about this chair has me seeing flags! I’m going to wait for other comments!
Cyphre: it’s common sense that there aren’t going to be professional chair reviewers, and even if hypothetically there were, it would still be mostly made up of opinion and comparisons to chairs you likely haven’t tried. Audio products have some measurable factors (specs again, like Frequency Response), but reviews are also largely made up of subjective observations because the numbers don’t tell you everything. Cars (& computers) are different, because the benchmark numbers can tell you almost everything.
Nobody here is against reviews, but a chair review will naturally be subjective observation.
Chairman: I didn’t read your entire post, because you missed my point, again, completely, and wrote flawed fluff. I mean, audio reviews are subjective. Car reviews are too. You are talking out your ass and your post is in a sorry state.
Cyphre: You’re not going to find what you want.
Me: Woah! Chairman, we didn’t say anything that deserved your disrespect. We tried to answer you honestly, that all you are gonna get are subjective reviews, no hard numbers other than the specs. You’re not going to find what you want here.
You guys are definitely people who have some sort of odd agenda about the chair. Please provide evidence that I am against subjectivity. These comments are all public friend.
Your summary of the events are twisted to suit only you and your friend. I'm not that invested in this chair, so all you fellas are doing is discouraging folks who are reading yours and Cyphre's ramblings.
In part it might be that there is a lack of basic sentence comprehension. Cool, thats ok, don't try to assume and internet things if its too hard. Here, let me break it down for you guys: 1. Chair is on massdrop, few reviews 2. Looking for reviews that are a bit more formal than comments on the product page 3. Said reviews can be subjective, just like how a majority of the head-fi reviews are just that. 3b. Those reviews also feature comparisons so that the subjectivity is within a boundary.
Hopefully thats in an easily digestible format. After all, the ignorance displayed here can really only point to one of two things. mental deficiencies, or a paid shill.
Problem is, there isn't an argument. You believe reviews should exist, without completely understanding that there is no market by which to have in depth reviews similar to other hobbies like audio and cars. There is no enthusiast site or community by which to get insight from 'experts' in the field of office furniture. There is no head-fi equivalent by which to ask individuals to write reviews.
Fact is, reviews for chairs will never amount to anything more than what you'd see on Amazon: basic customer feedback on whether a product works. Same as you'll find if you scroll down the conversations of this drop and read what people have written themselves about their experiences. No comparisons to other well known chairs will amount to much more than "It's better than a $49 desk chair from [Office supply store]."
I'll just google chair reviews, oh look: (I literally just took one of the first results for the chair model so I'm willing to accept this is an outlier if you can prove it) https://www.techrepublic.com/blog/product-spotlight/review-herman-miller-embody-chair/ https://gizmodo.com/5071571/herman-miller-embody-review-the-best-chair-weve-ever-sat-on https://www.gamingscan.com/herman-miller-embody-review/ Simple, some aren't super expansive but all are more formal than leaving a note in the comments section of an eCommerce platform. Amusing that again what you claim is "fact" is simply an erroneous assumption.
You again make broad assumptions and put words in my mouth. As I have no knowledge of the company behind this chair nor massdrops's relationship, I intentionally am vague about the what/who. Yet you immediately jump on it assuming it was the company. At the end of the day, this is an office chair, that you think this could be escalated to a conspiracy speaks volumes of how invested you are on this.
There wasn't any suspicion then but there's a wiggle of it now. I get it, we all need to make a living somehow, but attacking these comments aren't going to be productive to you. At the end of the day, I'm not making this purchase at this time and you're spending alot of efforts rambling about why chairs don't deserve reviews.
Ah the classic Herman Miller Embody chair. Even I could 'review' that chair, but those reviews you linked are a perfect example of why those reviews are useless, and amount to nothing more than advertisements. It's rarely mentioned, but reviews on sites like those happen when a company sends a review sample. Primarily because those sites aren't interested in giving out free advertisements. All of those reviews you linked can be summed up in "It's comfortable, but expensive." Not because they are lazy, or not chair enthusiasts, but because there is no empirical data to compare.
It's also the perfect example of why you need to read Amazon reviews. You see, when I was looking into replacing my desk chair at home, it was one of the prime candidates on my list. Mostly because a friend of mine already had one (in another state) after they thoroughly researched chairs themself, but also because it seemed to have a lot going for it in the design. However, after scouring the internet, I came to find multiple mentions of people returning their Embody chair because they all felt something pinching or poking their lower back (also, plastic pieces breaking, but probably only shipping related damage). No one could quite figure out why, but it definitely wasn't an isolated incident since so many had mentioned it specifically. So seeing as I was about to drop $1000 on a chair potentially, I located a store a few cities over and sat in it myself only to see that very problem crop up in a matter of minutes. Certainly made my choices a lot easier, especially since brands like Herman Miller don't make second versions or generational updates on their products which could have potentially fixed it.
Had I not read Amazon reviews, I would have never known of the potential issue that no other site mentioned. All of which predicated on the chair having been sold for some time and owned by a lot of people.
Escalated to a conspiracy? Guess that sarcasm was lost on you. The point is, 'shills' exist to sponsor specific products or companies as a branch of marketing. However, the only points being made here relate to the fact that there are no in-depth reviews for the multitude of reasons already stated. A fact you refuse to believe. You would do well to read the articles you linked just to see if you can find relevant information there. Something beyond what is already clearly stated on the product box.
I wish you luck in your future endeavors, ignoring the feedback of the common man on eCommerce websites. Although one day you may come to find that reviews on tech websites for desk chairs contain no useful information as a basis for comparison.
Funnily enough you confirm from an in-person experience, not hearsay. Even you did not rely solely on Amazon reviews as you preach. There are in-depth reviews, as you have seen on said sites you have acknowledged, that they do not meet everyone needs is not the discussion, they are objectively more comprehensive than the majority of amazon review. I'm not expecting a 20 page science report with a material analysis and a control group between chairs. Also, there are indeed reviewers who go way in depth within Amazon, no one is discrediting those.
In effect, you have again showed by writing up an essay that you are way more invested in this than a normal person should be (hmm what does that make this reply then? :S) all to say you don't agree that review sites provide the right information to you. Sounds like someone is pretty riled up to me. I'm just here to see what chair I should get.
Maybe I'm wrong, maybe since you emphasize dropping a grand, you're part of the chair elite that values user reviews immensely and I'm just on the other side looking into this world. Cool.
I am invested in spending money wisely, and not having to constantly buy replacements for quality products. I emphasize dropping a grand because it's no small quantity of money for a product that I would be stuck with for a long time to get my money's worth (spending $1000 on a chair that lasts 10 years, instead of $99 on a chair that lasts 1 year).
If you want to check 'what chair to get' then you're still going to have to research everything, everywhere. But most importantly, there is no definitive source of enthusiasts like head-fi or r/mk to source 'expert' or in-depth reviews. Seeing as this particular chair hasn't been around that long, user reviews as written in this discussion page are all you're going to find. At the end of the day, you're still not going to have definitive evidence one way or another because there is no empirical data to compare.
This is not what I have implied in any way. Your continued ignorance is at this point perplexing. I don't know what to make of it. I indeed to take amazon reviews into account. The majority of them are simply not helpful. There are exception user reviews that pop up, and trends reviews may indicate certain concerns about a product.
Thats great and all but as I emphasized before, I would like to see a more formal review. As someone who is preaching "due diligence", it is again disturbing that you focus so much of your efforts to expound on the virtues of amazon reviews. There are now websites that analyze those because fake and sponsored reviews are so rampant, I would take anything, included trusted review websites with a grain of salt and not gospel. Looking for proper reviews online seem to be something you are very much against, please educate me on how that helps me be an informed consumer of what I'm buying (essentially sight unseen). What is your logic that lumps all reviews as uninformative (and worse, assumes that from the beginning) if its posted on a review website yet pick and choose selectively certain Amazon one while willfully ignore the many that are unhelpful or vague.
All reviews of desk chairs are uninformative beyond a failure in the product (material failures and comfort). What we've all stated so far is explaining that there will never be professional reviews of this type of item. There can't be and there never will be. This isn't the audiophile community. This isn't the mechanical keyboard community. This isn't the car community. This isn't the EDC community.
What all desk chairs lack: -Empirical data for a basis of comparison (i.e. exotic materials, variable/calculable measurements, known internal components, etc) -A basis for comparison in a limited market due to a lack of multiple ownership (i.e. owning multiple knives, headphones, keyboards, etc).