Showing 1 of 1859 conversations about:
GUTB
227
Apr 20, 2017
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$75 seems about right for a lo-fi, entry level headphone amp.
Apr 20, 2017
Scarce97
232
Apr 20, 2017
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Ah, GUTB again! Nice to meet they guy always shitting on entry level products!
Apr 20, 2017
GUTB
227
Apr 20, 2017
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Is your issue with a low price for an entry level product? Or the fact that it's lo-fi?
Apr 20, 2017
Scarce97
232
Apr 20, 2017
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Lol, no.
My issue is with you bro, spreading negatively on a beautiful day like this!
Seriously tho, I have only seen you leaving shitty reviews on every predict under a certain price point and comparing it to the $700 dac and $1000 amps that you own.
The reason why you seem like a troll is simply because you go like "product is shit" not a "product is shit because of this, and I recommend this product of a similar price instead".
In summary, shitting on products is okay, but people prefer reading value added comments such as you explaining why this is shit and your alternative recommendations at a similar price point.
Audio doesn't have to be expensive.
Have a great day!
Apr 20, 2017
GUTB
227
Apr 20, 2017
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I look at audio as a spectrum. I'm not paid to do this so I'm free to do so. The spectrum includes a low-end and a hi-end. The difference in sound quality between them is quite profound.
I can't think of anything in this price range I could honestly call "good" so I can't in good conscious make a recommendation based on audio quality. When you're looking at lo-fi you try to make judgements based on value.
Apr 20, 2017
baltoszrhnds
27
Apr 20, 2017
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The noise floor and distortion are very low. The frequency response is excellent. The impedance is fairly low. There is nothing that suggests that the quality of this amp is nothing less than stellar. Just because your super expensive amp cost you $100 more doesn't mean it's meaningfully better. As long as you're not chaining a bunch of amps together in a series, the sound will be completely transparent. You don't need tubes for a great sound, either. The O2 is a wonderful amp for driving headphones at any level.
Apr 20, 2017
GUTB
227
Apr 20, 2017
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All chip amps, even the very cheapest, should at least manage a flat frequency response and low distortion / noise. What they won't have, however, is good dynamic range, resolution, PRaT, refinement, soundstage, etc. The very best chip amps start at around $1,000, and have very good dyanmics, resolution, PRaT, but still fall short in soundstage and refinement. Since headphones use so much less power than speakers, good headphone amps can start at around $400 in class A designs, and move up to around $10k for best direct-heated triode amps.
High quality audio is cheaper than it's ever been -- but still very expensive.
Apr 20, 2017
tessierpg
Apr 20, 2017
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Gutb is a low-fi commentator. And l'm being rather polite here...
Apr 20, 2017
Astro_Seven
151
Apr 20, 2017
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"...good dynamic range, resolution, PRaT, refinement, soundstage, etc." all attainable at affordable price points. This guy has no clue what he's talking about. Sounds like he's overpaid on a lot of equipment.
Apr 20, 2017
tessierpg
Apr 20, 2017
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a bit compulsive-obsessive?
Apr 20, 2017
Astro_Seven
151
Apr 21, 2017
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Beats headphones can cost up to $300, but only cost $14 to make. He focuses too much on price point as the measure of good quality. And the operative word is "good." One doesn't need to spend a fortune for "good."
Apr 21, 2017
tessierpg
Apr 21, 2017
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I agree with GUTB that a Class A amp with discrete components is probably at least in theory better than an IC chip based amp, but there is a lot more than this element to a good sounding amp. These Class A amps are a lot more expensive and in reality are not necessarily better sounding. There is a lot more to amp design than the type of transistors. This reminds me of Bob Carver who designed an amp in the late 70s that was made with IC chip transistors. This amp which I had a chance to listen in an Audio Shop in Montreal in the early eighties was designed in order to emulate the sound of the famous Mark Levinson pure class A amp. Some reputable journalists from a highly reputable audio magazine, Stereophile, had the chance to compare both amps (the Carver and the Mark Levinson) in a double blind test and could not tell them apart. The Carver Amp which was latter commercialized was selling for a fraction of the cost of the Mark Levinson amp. I remember the Carver amp price was slightly under 1000$ at the time while the Mark Levinson Amp was selling for more than a few thousand dollars. The Carver corporation did it again with the emulation of another reputable amp from Conrad Johnson. Bob Carver proved that an amp doesn't need to be Class A or to use tubes or discrete components to sound like a multi-thousand dollar amp...it had to be well designed and price alone is not the deciding factor. I understand that the O2 amp has been designed the right way by a designer who took with success the challenge of designing a low price headphone amp the very right way... And succeded, just like Bob Carver a few years back. The amp was also designed and fine tuned with the Sennheiser HD600/650 in mind. For less than 100$, and based on many comments from other users who love good sound and music rather than expensive equipment, I think that the "risk" of buying this little baby amp is very resonnable, if I may humbly say...
Apr 21, 2017
Astro_Seven
151
Apr 21, 2017
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Yep, it's the law of diminishing returns.
Apr 21, 2017
baltoszrhnds
27
Apr 21, 2017
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Dynamic range is the difference between the loudest and softest sounds a device can make. If your amp has poor dynamic range, you have a garbage amp. Dynamic range is so easy to achieve in an amp that it's worthless to even talk about it. Differences in it would be so minuscule that most, if not all humans wouldn't be able to notice a difference between a $60 and $600 amp in a double blind test. As for resolution, that is a term that doesn't even relate to amps whatsoever. Resolution in audio is dependent on your output device and your source components. An amp is neither. PRaT isn't even what an audio engineer or electrical engineer would measure. Those are just buzzwords. An amp just increases the amplitude of an input signal. Any other change to that distortion. Distortion literally means an undesired change in your audio. If your noise and distortion are low enough to never impact your listening whatsoever, your amp is perfectly transparent. You can easily record the output of your O2 with your PC, match the peaks of the original with the recorded audio, and mix the two together and get a fully phase cancelled signal. Most of what you read on Head-Fi is not written by a scientist. Please do your research.
Apr 21, 2017
tessierpg
Apr 21, 2017
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About your phase cancelled signal: this is how Bob Carver achieved to fine tune his amp in order to perfectly emulate the Mark Levinson amp...you are so right...
Apr 21, 2017
anakin
103
Apr 21, 2017
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Some people want audio better than their iPhones and earpods but can't justify thousands of dollars spent on equipment. Personally my ODAC and o2 with dt990 premiums is the sweet spot. There's a fine line between good and good enough.
Apr 21, 2017
Moes
76
Apr 21, 2017
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resolution, PRaT, refinement, soundstage, All the above are un quantifiable subjective nonsense. They are worse than BS. Atleast BS you can see and smell.
Apr 21, 2017
GUTB
227
Apr 21, 2017
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In your case, good enough seems to be entry level mid-fi (assuming a good match with your headphones). Have you ever considered listening to hi-fi?
Apr 21, 2017
tessierpg
Apr 21, 2017
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I would bet a large amount Gutb that in a double blind test you wouldn't be able to beat the statistical probabilities recognizing your "nirvana" amp (whatever it is) against an O2 or Schiit amp... You would only recognize the difference with a price tag to be shown.
Apr 21, 2017
Mcr240
61
Apr 21, 2017
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You probably think vinyl is the best sounding shit huh ? Betcha don't even bit music, probably use shitty streaming services known as RENTING MUSIC. Dumb rich people spending $50000 on audio equipment just to listen to 30 minute album or some overplayed "classic rock" garbage. You won't win this conversation.
Apr 21, 2017
Scarce97
232
Apr 22, 2017
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There are 3 types of people in the audiophile world:
"THE SUBJECTIVISTS: The hardcore Subjectivists trust their own ears above all else and often ignore, downplay, or sometimes even actively discredit objective efforts. Some argue they have superior hearing and/or listening skills and more refined tastes. That sometimes creates at least a whiff of an elitist “club” that some are drawn to (think Robb Report). But, regardless, their genuine passion for audio is to be admired. And I believe at least some of them do have superior listening skills compared to the Average Joe. Despite their more emotional left brains, which might imply a greater love of music, there’s some consensus Subjectivists spend more of their time tweaking and evaluating their hardware than a typical objectivist. Stereophile’s Michael Fremer is generally considered a strong subjectivist.
THE OBJECTIVISTS: This group tends to prefer some sort of science, measurements, or objective listening tests to back up claims of “A is better than B”. When reading a gear review they’re more likely to skip to the measurements section (if there is one) than read subjective impressions. They tend to be skeptical of outrageous claims and ultra high priced gear. They also tend to buy less expensive gear, less often, than subjectivists making them less attractive to manufactures. As mentioned above, they tend to be more satisfied with their systems so the spend more time just listening to music rather than the gear. Some have speculated this is because they’re confident more of their hardware is already “good enough.” Peter Aczel and the late Julian Hirsch are classic audio objectivists. And a lot of the folks at Hydrogenaudio fall in this category.
THE MODERATES: Just as with politics and religion, it’s not black and white. Some have a foot firmly in both the objective and subjective side of things. Some examples are John Atkinson at Stereophile, John Siau at Benchmark Media, and to some degree, myself. We value objective measurements but also trust our ears and just because we may not hear a difference we accept someone else might. I believe those in the middle are generally the most open minded. " -nwavguy http://nwavguy.blogspot.sg/2011/05/subjective-vs-objective-debate.html
I personally feel that I am a Moderatist, in the sense that I dont exactly believe in Measurements= sound, but I more prone towards being a objectivist for a big reason:
I do not believe that audio has to be expensive. Why do we have to pay more for a unjustified price to performance ratio?
NwAvGuy designed the o2 to be a non-expensive amp with a relatively good performance that anyone can afford. His reason for creating the o2 is well, for people to listen to the music through the headphone, not the amp. He wanted to construct a amp that would produce accurately how the recording was meant to sound.
There are people shitting on cheap and expensive products equally due to one factor. Price. Cheap products are easy to shit on, because, well, its cheap. Expensive products are also easy to shit on, because, well, its a low value product.
Either expensive products or cheap products all get haters, well cos there are people that purchase expensive products and feel that they literally are having the best audio performance that the people who are not willing to pay would never get. And likewise, there are normal audiophiles who think spending that much on a amp is a low value option and I can get similar performance for a much lower price.
And Mr. GUTB, sorry to say, but expensive components ≠ increased audio performance. There has been a recent breed of people supporting expensive products and claiming that they are a audio engineer with experience and justifying their purchase of expensive products as it uses quality components.
I am sorry to say Mr. GUTB, you happen to have a case of "component snob".
" DESIGNER COMPONENTS: Some audiophiles are “component snobs”. Someone once told me the Benchmark DAC1 isn’t worth considering because its Alps volume control only costs a few dollars. But, being objective, the DAC1 has great crosstalk performance (a weakness of some volume controls), good channel balance tracking, the volume control feels solid, turns smoothly, and doesn’t make any audible noise when turned. So what exactly is wrong with the volume control? The answer: Nothing significant. But some think you’re supposed to spend way more to get those hidden designer labels. They can go enjoy their latest issue of the Robb Report. They’re after something very different than simply getting the most accurate sound and the O2 isn’t their kind of amp.
DESIGNER COMPONENT CHALLENGE: Some claim specs alone don’t tell you how something like an op amp will sound. I believe if two op amps meet clear some basic measurement criteria, they will sound so similar it’s next to impossible to tell them apart. Anyone’s who’s skeptical might be interested in my Op Amp Blind Listening Challenge.
IMPLEMENTATION IS EVERYTHING: Like the DAC mentioned above, I’ve seen all sorts of products that use the right parts but got the details wrong and don’t work very well. Just routing a single ground signal wrong on the PC board can seriously harm performance. I’ve seen designs that measure great on RMAA but are simultaneously oscillating at RF frequencies. The O2 demonstrates proper implementation can yield genuinely excellent performance without using any designer or expensive parts. Some of the O2’s measurements are pushing the limits of even my dScope audio analyzer."
-NwAvGuy http://nwavguy.blogspot.sg/2011/07/
I am not shitting on expensive products. I am simply pointing out whats happening:
GUTB- Low-fi amp
NwAvGuy- Why is this amp a objective amp backed up with proper measurements
" Cost (almost) No Object – Some go overboard with ultra-high end parts, exotic topologies (i.e. fully balanced), etc. These designs can end up being very costly as some “boutique” audiophile parts are ridiculously expensive and some of the topologies require 2+ times as many parts. Do they work any better? It’s unfair to generalize but I know lots of the parts and principals that go into overkill designs often have no measurable benefits and fail to survive blind listening comparisons. I’m sure some designs turn out great. And even those that don’t can be impressive works of art to be admired. You can put a Mercedes AMG V8 engine into a riding lawnmower but the result probably belongs behind a rope in a museum rather than trying to mow lawns. In other words, the engineers at Lawn Boy can probably build a better lawn mower than some guy in a shed using Mercedes parts. I go into this more later and it’s one of the key reasons why many Cost no Object designs are flawed—the implementation is at least as important as the parts and cost."
-NwAvGuy http://nwavguy.blogspot.sg/2011/07/
So, Mr. GUTB, the o2 isnt a cheap amp. Its just that NwAvGuy chose to design the o2 with logical parts to keep the price low yet give very good performance. Oh yeah, he also didnt collect any money for his hard work.
So thats why commoners like me can have the o2 amp a such a low price point.
I highly recommend going to NwAvGuy's blog to cure your case of "component snob"
Have a great day!
Apr 22, 2017
GUTB
227
Apr 22, 2017
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Digital is so good and inexpensive now you would need to spend 50k on vinyl to beat a 5k digital setup...its not a very good value. But for wealthy audiophiles that can afford the very best vinyl is still the best.
Music streaming is of very low quality -- at best CD quality but usually the streaming system is of terrible quality until you get into big $ network players. Tidal Master with MQA is changing that but for MQA the cheapest quality MQA DAC at this time costs 2k so out of the range of most audiophiles (on Massdrop anyway).
Apr 22, 2017
FuckHead-Fi
369
Aug 11, 2017
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Vinyl is shit.
Aug 11, 2017
FuckHead-Fi
369
Aug 11, 2017
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It's audibly transparent, so as high or higher fidelity than anything else.
Aug 11, 2017
FuckHead-Fi
369
Aug 11, 2017
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Misinformation.
Aug 11, 2017
FuckHead-Fi
369
Aug 11, 2017
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It is in fact hi-fi.
Aug 11, 2017
FuckHead-Fi
369
Aug 11, 2017
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Well you are quite ignorant.
Aug 11, 2017
lovemid-fi
2
Aug 12, 2017
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So this amp was "tuned" for the Sennheiser's? I am seriously considering picking this up, but I am one that does not find the Sennheiser sound to my liking. I'm not crapping on them, people love them, and that is all that counts in my book, they are just not the sound I prefer. But is an amp just simply amplifying? Can an amp "color" a sound signature? I would prefer having as neutral a chain as I can get between my source and my headphones. I am NOT an expert, just enjoy learning more.
Aug 12, 2017
tessierpg
Aug 12, 2017
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From my experience with the O2, it doesn't color the sound. It is neutral sounding. It has been designed to be as neutral as possible. moreover, it is a very low impedance amp (0,5 ohms), so amp to headphone matching is therefore optimized with most headphones, from low to high impedance models, well respecting the 8x damping factor (headphone impendance/amp impedance > 8x) with any serious headphone (18-600 ohms), therefore the frequency response of the headphone is far less impacted by the amp's output impedance. And the O2 is powerful enough to drive most headphones, using its gain control to adjust to the input voltage from the source. Use the 6,5x gain if the input voltage is 1V or under (iPhone, iPad, most phones and many portable or pc sound cards) and use the lower gain setting 2,5 (or 3,3x on the medium gain version) for higher voltage sources (cd players, Dac output, etc which are normally around 2,0 to 2,1V). Another benefit from this amp: it is silent, no hiss or noise affecting the sound from the components or the AC adapter. Lastly, the amp has a low distorsion design, although relying in IC op amps, not discrete components, but nevertheless it's design is well done and it sounds excellent. Most people wont ever need more than what the O2 is providing, at any price. Are there other budget amps out there that are comparable? Maybe, many say the Schiit Magni2 is one. I haven't tried it. Could be...
Aug 12, 2017
lovemid-fi
2
Aug 12, 2017
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Thanks! I have a Magni 1, but will be avoiding Schitt products in future. Not for performance reasons, but because I have tried them on 3 newer PC's, none of which would recognize the Modi DAC (you can't manually install drivers, because the PC needs to detect the DAC in order to install the drivers - I need the drivers because the DAC is not detected in the first place!) I'm going to try running my inexpensive DAP through the Magni, if it gives me what I need with its DAC, I'll order the O2. Thanks again for the response
Aug 12, 2017
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