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Showing 1 of 345 conversations about:
CEE_TEE
3480
Jun 6, 2018
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John Grandberg/project86 https://www.head-fi.org/threads/massdrop-x-airist-audio-r-2r-dac-a-discrete-resistor-ladder-dac-for-350.881315/#post-14282853 “Massdrop’s Airist R-2R DAC offers massive performance at a relatively low price ... It focuses on the fundamentals and makes beautiful, natural sound, much the same way my favorite vintage R-2R DACs did ... For offering a musically satisfying performance, with amazingly pure treble and accurate imaging, the Massdrop Airist R-2R DAC is a clear winner. Factor in the ability to upgrade it to an almost shockingly high level of performance, and you can see why it earns a very strong recommendation.” Head-Fi.org, InnerFidelity.com, Darko.Audio
Jun 6, 2018
rajapruk
212
Jun 7, 2018
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CEE_TEEWhat is the upgrade ability spoken of here?
Jun 7, 2018
Jotunn
87
Jun 7, 2018
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rajaprukI think project86 was talking about a linear power supply. He swapped the wall wart with a Wyred4Sound PS-1. Mtmercer provided links to some LPS units for the CTH and LCX since the LPS should be rated to your amp.
Jun 7, 2018
Proclus
12
Jun 7, 2018
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CEE_TEEAny independent measurements of the DAC, in addition to select few folks gushing about it with empty superlatives?
Jun 7, 2018
DontDooDad
94
Jun 8, 2018
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rajaprukUSB decrapifiers, upsampling at the source, and linear power supplies.
Jun 8, 2018
Artifiz
180
Jun 10, 2018
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CEE_TEEA quote from John Grandberg/project86 post " The one exception I can think of is from Audio GD and it sounds pretty awful in my experience... " IMHO, people who bad mouth and batch other brands efforts that have been proven to be honest shouldn't be given any credit much less any attention. His words sound biased at best.
Jun 10, 2018
ajaxender12
67
Jun 14, 2018
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ArtifizSeems ironic to be talking about honesty, or bias, when cutting a quote short to intentionally leave out the part where the author clarified that they "actually like Audio GD, in general".
Jun 14, 2018
Artifiz
180
Jun 15, 2018
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ajaxender12Yeah Right? Actually, the reviewer, tries to smooth out his "awful experience" story by saying "he likes Audio GD." That's like saying I hate Massdrop community, but I like Massdrop in General. huh? The reviewer actually had to resource to the cheap strategy of attacking Audio GD's R2R product to make Airist R2R a better product. A reviewer has to focus on the features of the product he is reviewing not by attacking someone else "legit product" just to make his sponsor happy, thats not being informative!
Jun 15, 2018
Allan_Cross
36
Jun 15, 2018
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ajaxender12I own the Audio GD NFB11.28, NFB11.38, R2R-11and the R2R-1 among many other audio gd gear. I don't know what this John Grandberg is talking about which Audio GD R2R device being awful. He is not even specific. At least Audio GD's products aren't copied of other people's work.
Jun 15, 2018
zbells
234
Jun 15, 2018
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Allan_CrossBut "The LED indicators are deliberately soft (I hate bright LEDs that light up my room) which shows the care put into the design." Common, I also prefer soft LED and less light being emitted from my equipment, but other people don't. It has nothing to do with the "care put into the design", but rather a simple design choice. That's a schillish comment if you ask me (just say you like the soft LEDs).
Jun 15, 2018
mahee
337
Jun 20, 2018
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Allan_CrossI am looking at Audio-GD for my next DAC. I am mainly interested in the DAC portion of the unit as i will line-out into other amps.
Was there any striking difference between R2R-11 and NFB 11.28 you noticed
Jun 20, 2018
LGCi
246
Jun 21, 2018
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maheeYou can find reviews and comparisons of the two units on YouTube
Jun 21, 2018
Jimster480
395
Jun 27, 2018
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maheeBasically Audio-GD products measure terribly as shown by audiosciencereview... Amir hasn't measured one of these yet so no way to know how it stacks up.
Jun 27, 2018
mahee
337
Jun 27, 2018
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Jimster480Not worried too much about the measurements as long it brings something unique to the sound
Jun 27, 2018
Jimster480
395
Jun 27, 2018
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maheeAccuracy is the only thing to pay for. If you want to mess the sound up you can do it with an EQ or DSP.
Jun 27, 2018
Allan_Cross
36
Jun 28, 2018
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Jimster480Audio is always subjective, so is accuracy. Its like colors, there are different shades of black and none of them could be officially called to be accurate. Sound accuracy presented on paper or on a device screen doesn't sound right to me, especially presented by graphs and measurements LMAO. I wouldn't buy a car based solely on a graph. Beside these tests always favored "few" brands willing to sponsor ("pay") good reviews. Otherwise people at audiosciencereview would use their tech skills on things that are profitable, but I bet the reviews they do generate enough profits for them already, otherwise they wouldn't be a corporation.
Jun 28, 2018
Artifiz
180
Jun 28, 2018
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maheeNFB 11.28 is less warm and its clear, its kind of more neutral, boring for some.The R2R-11 is more enjoyable, but no lost in details. If I want to relax and have a fun listen I use my R2R 11. If I want to hear details then 11.28. I have both and I wouldn't part with either.
Jun 28, 2018
AcousticWhisper
45
Jun 28, 2018
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Jimster480Those measurements are always off. Last time I followed those audiosciencereview measurements I ended up buying a $1,200 amp that's collecting dust in my basement. Its the worse I had bought thanks to audiosciencereview that said it was the best.
Jun 28, 2018
Artifiz
180
Jun 28, 2018
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AcousticWhisperThe equipment they use to come up with the measurements are calibrated by a programmer's impression, but then again a man's treasure is another man's trash.
Jun 28, 2018
Jimster480
395
Jun 28, 2018
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ArtifizCalibrated by programmers impression? No they are calibrated by SCIENCE.... holy crap how can you be so dumb to believe that its calibrated by impression?
Jun 28, 2018
Jimster480
395
Jun 28, 2018
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AcousticWhisperCan you link me to said review?
Jun 28, 2018
Jimster480
395
Jun 28, 2018
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ArtifizYes you like to pay money to have audio quality worse than that available from your onboard sound card in your PC.... makes perfect sense. When you want to relax and lose all the details in your music because you aren't really listening anyway then a R2R DAC is fine I suppose. When you want to actually listen to music, there is no excuse for it.
Jun 28, 2018
Jimster480
395
Jun 28, 2018
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Allan_CrossNo sorry, color isn't subjective either. Both are scientific and both are scientifically measured and calibrated, people are often subjective and naive and therefore they think science doesn't matter. Monitors have different levels of color accuracy aswell, they are calibrated scientifically. And if you decide that you like your colors to be washed out or you like them to be inaccurate then that is your own opinion. But then to say that an inferior measuring screen is "better" because you like it that way, is just nonsense.
The reality is that you can always buy the better product and use its features to tune it how you like, vs spending more money on an inferior product which is never capable of producing such quality.
Jun 28, 2018
Artifiz
180
Jun 28, 2018
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Jimster480What is SCIENCE? Who give us SCIENCE? Who can attest that the SCIENCE they show us is the real thing? YOUR GOD? LOL! How can you be so dumb to think the science you believe in is created by an absolute thing to be so credible? The Science used to calibrate those devices might be different from others' science, its all impressions!!!
Jun 28, 2018
AcousticWhisper
45
Jun 28, 2018
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Jimster480Dude, you sound so stupid with your accuracy here and there. You must be in your early teenage years to think there is real accuracy in this world. Audio is always subjective and I don't care what rat lab says what's accurate, I am going to buy what my ears like the most. I am a graphics designer and I have worked for more than 25 years with colors and there is whole gamma of colors that you can't definitely say this color is the accurate one. I wasn't talking about "monitor screen." Monitors only involve RGB (Red, green, and blue) so not much to debate there and you will hardly get accurate "black" on a pc monitor unless you spend thousands and even that's debatible. In real life there is different shades of Black, but I am not going to waste my time if you will always come back to high school science, hahaha!
Jun 28, 2018
Allan_Cross
36
Jun 28, 2018
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Jimster480 """Yes you like to pay money to have audio quality worse than that available from your onboard sound card in your PC.... makes perfect sense. When you want to relax and lose all the details in your music because you aren't really listening anyway then a R2R DAC is fine I suppose.""" I have 2 R2R Dacs in my audio gear collection and I can tell you dont have a freaking idea of what you are talking about.
Jun 28, 2018
Jimster480
395
Jun 28, 2018
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Allan_CrossI mean you can literally make any claim you want to make. Just because you believe something that isn't true doesn't make it true. Plenty of people watch 720p TV's and think they are more than fine and think that the quality is supurb. Does that not mean that there isn't better out there? No, it just means that they are satisfied with what they have. I have no problem with you being satisfied with what you have, but the only time to have an R2R DAC is when you get a really good price on one and you want to check it out. Because otherwise DS DAC's are just superior technology despite what people want to believe.
Jun 28, 2018
Tatteredmidnight
170
Jun 28, 2018
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AcousticWhisperProbably best not to throw shade at the same "rat lab" engineers and scientists that brought you PCM, DSD, vacuum tubes, transistors,and the internet through which we are arguing, no?
Measured performance is critical for QA, R&D, and to ensure consistency throughout the workflow. If you want to further understand the value of measurements, there is a whole field called metrology. Certifying institutes like the NIST provide accepted references for everything from weights, to time, to voltages. This is necessary for the world to function as we know it.
Science requires no faith. For an instrument to be considered "accurate" in a laboratory environment, you are talking about accuracy within a defined range. This accuracy can be demonstrated through a validated chain of calibration certificates at the time of measurement that flows directly back to one or more standards body. EEVBlog has some great videos on this subject I suggest you check out.
Jun 28, 2018
Jimster480
395
Jun 28, 2018
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AcousticWhisperSo you are a graphics designer and yet you don't care about color accuracy? How were you employed for the last 25 years? Many colors are difficult to discern from one another, but that doesn't mean they aren't different and it doesn't mean that a professional series calibrated monitor won't display them properly... I have $1500 Ultrasharp pro tuned monitors and the colors are indeed accurate to real life.
Jun 28, 2018
AcousticWhisper
45
Jun 28, 2018
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Jimster480There you go. You had to spend $1500 on a Dell monitor to have "close to real life" colors. Most of my monitors are in that price range and Ultrasharp are great. Accurate? I still doubt it. Close? Yeah, you can say that.
Jun 28, 2018
AcousticWhisper
45
Jun 28, 2018
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Tatteredmidnight"""Measured performance is critical for QA, R&D, and to ensure consistency throughout the workflow. If you want to further understand the value of measurements, there is a whole field called metrology. Certifying institutes like the NIST provide accepted references for everything from weights, to time, to voltages. This is necessary for the world to function as we know it.""" I can understand on how critical measurements can be if you are making people's glasses to help them see better, building skyscrapers and telescopies for scientist . However, I am not going to look at a measurement and say: "Oh, this headphone is what I need. It has perfect measures on this graph" or "no this amp or dac its not the sound I want. The graph says its colored on the mids" Again, I don't need to look at other peoples' measurements to buy or use the things . I don't rely on those. I don't know how much in equipment I had spent (thousands of $$$) following a rat lab's measurement just to find out it wasn't what I needed it. Measures for me are useless when it comes to enjoying audio. How many times I had seen headphones' measurement and got excited to later see its not what the graph and what the reviewer wrote (sometimes using same amp/dac reviewer used to write his review). I am not against science or engineering. Just that math and graphs in life are most of the time worthless when it comes to make certain decisions.
Jun 28, 2018
Tatteredmidnight
170
Jun 29, 2018
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AcousticWhisperI'm not trying to change your mind, just your perspective. You are right that the measurement isn't the goal, its the means to consistently deliver the desired result.
Good measurements are critical for this design because it requires closely matched resistors with specific aging consistency. Nothing is so simple in life, everything is made of something else, and somewhere in that line a "rat lab" technician is ensuring that the ladder DAC you and others buy sound the same.
Its not about comparing apples to oranges, its about making sure all the oranges are similar enough to be interchangeable.
Don't take for granted the availability of high quality, consistent components to make sure your unmeasurable musical experience is a consistent one, and you get what you played for.
Jun 29, 2018
Tatteredmidnight
170
Jun 29, 2018
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AcousticWhisperAccuracy in this context means that the color on the calibrated monitor will match the color from the calibrated printer at your facility or another. ICM profiles exist for this purpose. This is also the reason we have Pantone or the munsell color system for precisely describing colors for print.
Consistent reproduction is all around you, and you never notice precisely because these calibrated systems have been developed over the decades.
Jun 29, 2018
RockyMountains
478
Jun 29, 2018
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AcousticWhisperJimster is a well documented shill for audiosciencereview (he's got an account over there too). All he does is clog up Massdrop conversations promoting ASR's misunderstanding of 'science', and on ASR all he does is kiss up to the guy who runs the site. Oh, and I almost forgot- he also spins out crazy conspiracy theories about how the people who own Schitt also own Head-Fi.
All he does is shout nonsense and troll. He has done the same in other parts of the Airist thread already, he's been doing it for weeks.
I'm all for 'science', but what Jimster is promoting isn't science, it's just a cult of personality.
Jun 29, 2018
AcousticWhisper
45
Jun 29, 2018
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RockyMountainsYes, I saw Jimster's need to frequently mention "audiosciencereview" as a bible of life. It became too funny how he says "science this and science that", lol. Thanks for the info, highly appreciated, but I think I already had him figured. He becomes too obvious with promoting ASR's accuracy, lol.
Jun 29, 2018
AcousticWhisper
45
Jun 29, 2018
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TatteredmidnightI know and I use Pantone system reference all the time for printing. I have to always calibrate my own monitors even when these are supposed to come already calibrated, but in different lighting settings. My biggest issue might be that I have a 20+ years background in classical music performance and I know how a classical piano's lowest or highest C key should sound, even how short or long a high or low note should vibrate depending if its a sustained or staccato effect. Perhaps, that's why I don't like technical measurements since these little details are overlooked in these graphs and measurements. I had read reviews from "so called professional reviewers with graphs" that mention headphones to be neutral and distortion free, however I had found distortions and other things. I will not mention brands or reviewers since I don't want to bad mouth anything or anybody, its just my experience.
Jun 29, 2018
Tatteredmidnight
170
Jun 29, 2018
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AcousticWhisperYour opinion and purchasing decisions are as valid as anyone's. I would just implore you to direct your consternation at the person or institution(s) you take issue with, rather than make broadly condescending and false remarks about science and the people who practice it.
Feeding the trolls only perpetuates the ignorance and further confuses an already heavily subjective experience: the reproduction of music.
Using the pejorative "rat lab" is not necessary and cheapens your point. Let your ideas stand on the strength of their merit, not the crutches of derogatory and defametory name calling.
If you were speaking to a particular lab being disreputable (audiosciencereview), that message was lost in the dismissive tone towards science and technology in your previous posts.
Jun 29, 2018
AcousticWhisper
45
Jun 29, 2018
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TatteredmidnightMy comments on the so called "accuracy" of graphs is a valid one. There is no way in this world a graph would show 100% how sound is reproduce by a device. Its a reference alright... lacking some important points for some of us. There are many elements left out, otherwise a graph would be not be valid without being complemented by the impression(s) of a "trusted" reviewer. Interesting how "rat lab" offends you so vastly. I was called "geek" for many years for working with computers and that didn't offend me a bit. I don't have inferiority complexes ;-)
Jun 29, 2018
Allan_Cross
36
Jun 29, 2018
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TatteredmidnightI guess being from ASR trolling other forums is very scientific and technological anyhow.
Jun 29, 2018
Artifiz
180
Jun 29, 2018
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TatteredmidnightThis is a really sad scene. A reviewer from audiosciencereview highly degrading himself fighting over meaningless comments made on someone else's forum. That really shows your true character. I am really impressed. Bravissimo!
Jun 29, 2018
Jimster480
395
Jun 29, 2018
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AcousticWhisperheadphone measurements are different because FR is just one metric and most other things are not measured. Also with headphones they can sound different based on your ears, the size of your head, the pads you use, the amp its being powered with.... etc. That isn't the same though for a DAC.
Jun 29, 2018
Dr_Rodney_McKay
139
Jun 30, 2018
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JotunnYes, and the linear power supply followed a series of upgrades to the headphones & amps he used to test the DAC. He worked his way gradually up to higher and higher quality headphones & headphone amps, and he says the Airist R-2R let him hear improvements up to Sennheiser HD800 headphones and a $3,500 Pass Labs HPA-1 headphone amp.
After that I guess he ran out of money, or possibly observed diminishing marginal returns and decided he had heard enough. I wish he'd described his experiences with some of the half dozen not-Sennheiser headphones he tried, but it was that progression of improvement when paired with better other devices that convinced me to join this drop.
Jun 30, 2018
JammingAlong
25
Jun 30, 2018
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Allan_CrossThey troll not only MD, they are everywhere promoting their audio science reviews site and forum like a plague.
Jun 30, 2018
xx0x0
93
Jul 1, 2018
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Jimster480If you really think accuracy is the only thing to pay for, then why are you in a r2r dac discussion thread? Come on
Jul 1, 2018
Jimster480
395
Jul 1, 2018
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xx0x0Its the only thing to consider in a DAC. Otherwise there is no point in having one. Analog modifications can be made with a tube amp if you desire, otherwise a DSP or EQ before the DAC can also change the sound. Audiophiles just like to waste money on nothing so that they can go around telling others to do the same.
Jul 1, 2018
Jimster480
395
Jul 1, 2018
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Dr_Rodney_McKayOh wow, what a nice subjective bias review! I'm sure that makes this worth it...
Jul 1, 2018
Jimster480
395
Jul 1, 2018
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JammingAlongNo we are just trying to share the truth with the rest of the audio world. To stop people from wasting money on scam companies (not saying this DAC is a scam, just for the record) and spending money on audibly indifferent products.
Jul 1, 2018
Soundscapes
24
Jul 1, 2018
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Jimster480I am always reading your site's reviews and I usually buy whatever you guys grade as "Not recommended." It always works for me ;-)
Jul 1, 2018
xx0x0
93
Jul 2, 2018
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Jimster480So, why are you in a r2r dac discussion thread?
Jul 2, 2018
Jimster480
395
Jul 2, 2018
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SoundscapesIts not my site, and basically you are admitting to buying trash products with poor designs, major flaws, poor construction and high prices. Basically means that nobody should ever listen to your opinion about what to buy since you are purely wasting your money.
Jul 2, 2018
Jimster480
395
Jul 2, 2018
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xx0x0Replied to a different comment. Overall I found this thread after this dilemma that Airist copied this design from another developer sosolar..
Jul 2, 2018
JammingAlong
25
Jul 2, 2018
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Jimster480This is exactly why I don't like audiosciencereviews. They are always trashing and bashing all sort of audio gear. Its a negative site. It's far from being pro-science.
Jul 2, 2018
Jimster480
395
Jul 2, 2018
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JammingAlongIts a scientific site that doesn't lend to subjectivity. Bashing bad products and talking about objectively good products isn't the lack of science. It actually is science.
Jul 2, 2018
Soundscapes
24
Jul 2, 2018
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JammingAlongThe audiosciencereviews master, amirm, says R2R Dacs are worthless piece of crap and Jimster480 said it here too on a previous post. Then why is R2R Dacs gaining so much popularity if R2R Dacs are a piece of crap? I don't know what kind of science they are practicing...
Jul 2, 2018
JammingAlong
25
Jul 2, 2018
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Jimster480"Its a scientific site that doesn't lend to subjectivity." There is listener preferences and that will never be scientific. There is no "science" in this world accurate enough that can dictate me what to listen based on a lab test.
Jul 2, 2018
Artifiz
180
Jul 2, 2018
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Then why are you guys in a R2R Dac thread? Isn't R2R Dacs a piece of crap and waste of money according "tests" done by Tatteredmidnight or Amirm?
Jul 2, 2018
Jiv_au
100
Jul 3, 2018
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ArtifizI'm not sure if Amirm ever said R2R DACs are a piece of crap. I think he said it all depends on the implementation.
I appreciate that R2R may be a challenge to implement given the preciseness required of the R and 2R resistors, and deviation caused by temperature. Heck, it could be really really good, or not so good.
I'm in this drop to see if Airist can pull it off. If they do then $350 would be extremely good value.
Jul 3, 2018
Rosiebar
126
Jul 3, 2018
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Jiv_auThe kiddies much rather throw mud vs. what was actually said and why. It’s easier for them then learning.
https://audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/measurement-of-r2r-dac.2202/
Jul 3, 2018
JammingAlong
25
Jul 3, 2018
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RosiebarThen someone sends mr. amirm a good sounding r2r dac and he pulls it apart and criticizes the screws aren't well polished, the soldering is not neat, the pot knob is too lose and calls the whole thing a not worth his comment. Like it or not your guy is a nickpicking maniac. I only wonder, why doesn't he make a perfect device if he is all that smart ? Easier to criticize other people's work than do one yourself. Ha!
Jul 3, 2018
Brigar
28
Jul 3, 2018
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Jimster480an informed opinion on the subject of specs, measurements, and their
RL applications:
John Novak’s 2015 RMAF presentation https://youtu.be/2V6YN-mshmY
Jul 3, 2018
AcousticWhisper
45
Jul 3, 2018
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BrigarThis shows that measures aren't always telling it all, that supports my statements as a musician and audiophile. I like this guy. Very knowledgeable and a lot more intelligent than most audio scientist engineers on the web. I like the quotes (55:35): "Not all that counts can be counted, Not all that can be counted counts" (Found on Einstein's Wall) "Not all that matters can be measured, Not all that can be measured, matters" John really knows his job and has a better understanding of audio. Great Post! Thank you very much.
Jul 3, 2018
Rosiebar
126
Jul 4, 2018
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AcousticWhisperIf your able to hold back your brilliance and allow the world a short moment of darkness without your comment to light the way. Follow a discussion for a while. As if sitting in a room with these gentleman and listening in the hope of learning something. It is in listening that you may find revelation vs. vindication of opinion. Knowledge is not a process of ego. It is an opportunity for greater understanding. And someday you may understand. But only when you begin to listen, read and not speak. Just listen.
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/philosophical-question-about-song.3146/
Jul 4, 2018
AcousticWhisper
45
Jul 4, 2018
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RosiebarThat discussion reminds me of my college years. There wasn't any web or social networks at that time. We would make these open forums every other week at the college campus basically to get together with other music education and sound recording majors to exchange ideas, knowledge, and experience to help each other with the different concerns we had about music and sound recording which was a too huge of a monster for most of us at that time. Thanks for the link.
Jul 4, 2018
Artifiz
180
Jul 4, 2018
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AcousticWhisperDon't pay attention to Rosiebar, he is just trying to make fun of you. Talking about ego, he thinks he is holier than thou. He found the truth on that site and he is a chosen one! LMAO!!!!!
Jul 4, 2018
Soundscapes
24
Jul 5, 2018
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Rosiebarhey dude, what is there to learn from a site that only promotes hate towards other people's work and shows measures that aren't real? Your false messiah is nothing, but a frustrated guy. As a technician I had put apart several amp/dacs from Schiit and other brands and never saw the imperfections he shows on his photos. He is not truthful, he is not bias, he is all hate. If he was all that good why isn't he at least known for developing a single audio unit? While other guys are well respected and are making millions, your guy is sitting at home criticizing everyone's work. If thats Science, then leave me out.
Jul 5, 2018
bilboda
36
Aug 10, 2018
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BrigarYou will see amirm towards the end of this video basically asking for more buttons to use. There are thousand of settings available for multiple uses that experienced engineers spent 20+ more years learning and understanding. amirm does not understand enough settings and uses so just wants it to be more user friendly. I get this. But I will not trust the reports from a guy who just jumped into this after a career in software development thinking he can somehow be competent in a field that can take decades to master.
Aug 10, 2018
Brigar
28
Aug 10, 2018
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bilbodaNovak brings an excellent perspective on the cautions and constructive uses of performance measurement. The counter examples have no shortage of voices.
Aug 10, 2018
ArtifizI'm late to the party here, but wanted to clear this up. The AudioGD product in question was the Singularity 19. It sounded absolutely awful to my ears. Just terrible, and I don't use that term lightly. I have yet to hear the newer AGD R2R models so I can't speak about them... hopefully they sound better than the S19.
Regarding bias though, I've owned/reviewed/enjoyed many Audio GD products over the years, starting with the Reference 7 way back in the day. So I wasn't trying to "smooth out" anything for my "sponsor", which doesn't even make sense. I like the company and many of their products but thoroughly dislike the model in question. How is that not clear?
Aug 11, 2018
zbellsThere was indeed a specific focus on making sure the LED was not obnoxious. My initial review sample of the Cavalli CTH actually had a fairly bright LED, and the actual production model is changed to tone down the brightness. You can call it a "simple design choice" but when the company focuses on it for that specific reason, wouldn't it be fair to call that "care"? I think so, hence my comment in the review.
Aug 11, 2018
AcousticWhisper
45
Aug 14, 2018
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Project86I am not the poster you are replying to but, since its a "party" as you called it, I can invite myself in. On your initial review you didn't mention specific Audio Gd model, you just stated in a way that let everyone clear that you had a horrible experience with Audio Gd R2R design in general. IMHO, you stated that Audio GD R2R products are trash then you praised the product you were given to review. Its been stated by you and its clear enough to me.
Aug 14, 2018
ElectronicVices
2937
Aug 14, 2018
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bilbodaAmir believes his role in creating the Windows sound implementation (pre-windows 10) gives him credence to speak about audio. This is a laughable premise given how much 3rd party development was in place to bypass all the horrible things Windows did to the audio chain. Part of the scientific process involves the ability to reproduce a prior result. Amir has consistently evaded the communities cries for him and other testers with the same AP Analyzer to share settings configs and see if they can reproduce the same results. As someone who values "science first" this should have been a top priority for him, sadly he's pretty much taken his ball and "gone home". I'm all for the incorporation of objective and subjective impressions but ASR feels more like an echochamber than an exercise in the scientific method. I've also not seen a single drum beating follower own/try any of the gear that Amir says is "crap." If he was all that bright why did he choose a hybrid tube amp as one of his first to measure. Distortion numbers will always be higher in a system with a tube involved. The AP video does a good job of demonstrating that different types of distortion yield different thresholds for human perception. This is a key area where ASR falls short... inaudible is inaudible, no brownie points given for making it 100 times inaudible.
Aug 14, 2018
Vishmaw
88
Aug 15, 2018
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ElectronicVicesThat Amir has not offered to share his AP settings is simply not true, you are spreading misinformation. He has made clear multiple time on multiple forums that he will share them with people who request them. Indeed there are people who have requested them and received them. He doesnt make them available for public download but neither do any of the others.
Its pretty obvious you are biased against him given that you do not criticize the others for not sharing their configs. If he is required to do it to be taken seriously, why arent the others?
It amazes me how people keep spreading this lie, there was a reddit thread where he said he would give his AP settings to people and in that very same thread there was a certain individual saying HE HAS NOT MADE THE FILES AVAILABLE WHAT IS HE HIDING!? Remarkable.
I got to tell you as someone who doesnt really have a dog in this fight, has bought and liked Schiit products before, I was full ready to say Amir was wrong...until I saw how the anti-Amir crowd acted. Constant lies, disparaging of his character, and claiming his measurements were all wrong in spite of not providing any real evidence of this beyond "IT IS KNOWN KALESSI!"
Its pretty obvious to me which side is trying to be objective in their evaluation and which side is full of Schiit :)
Aug 15, 2018
amirm
341
Aug 15, 2018
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ElectronicVicesI haven't evaded any community. Jude at head-fi will not allow me to post on his forum. So as much as I like to respond, I cannot. What I can do is answer his and your challenges on ASR Forum such as this: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/are-measurements-of-schiit-yggdrasil-dac-inconsistent.3812/
As you see there, I show that the Yggdrasil DAC is poor performing using their measurements, not mine!
As to what I did at Microsoft, I mention that as totality of my experience, not the reason you should trust what I say. This is my full qualifications: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/a-bit-about-your-host.1906/
Who do you trust with measurements and where would I read their qualifications?
As to inaudible being inaudible, there is no reason to get equipment that is poorly engineered when there are perfectly good products at the same or even lower prices. No one talks more about psychoacoustics of measurements than me because that is part of my professional experience.
Ultimately you have to accept that out of thousands of desktop and portable audio products, there are many that are poor, and some that are great. My goal is to bring objective data that shows which is which. I do it all on my nickel with no financial support from any advertisers, sponsors, etc. A lot of gear is loaned to me by owners that want to know how to measure. The rest I buy myself including a bunch from this nice site: massdrop.
Be on the side of consumers. Don't dump on the only person who has your and only your interest in mind.
Aug 15, 2018
FrostyP
502
Aug 15, 2018
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ElectronicVicesSpotted the SBAF member
Aug 15, 2018
ElectronicVices
2937
Aug 15, 2018
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FrostyPNope, I've stopped going to Head-fi (former member), SBAF (only lurked), and ASR (only lurked). Sadly they've all descended into a state of tribal BS that I have absolutely no interest in. Your assumption that I ascribe myself to one of their camps only helps in creating a polarized community here, check that crap at the door please. A polarized community with little discussion in between is the exact reason I stopped visiting those sites. Sadly the trend on Massdrop is the same and I doubt I will participate here much longer either. In the two plus decades I've spent enjoying music and the gear that lets me enjoy my music my personal stance is as follows: Everyone's ears are different, neither objective measurements nor subjective opinions tell the whole tale and everyone has their own stopping point in this hobby. This is going to be my last post in this thread, I seem to have inadvertently riled up one of the audio "Tribes" and I refuse to acknowledge your/their behavior as acceptable.
Aug 15, 2018
FrostyP
502
Aug 15, 2018
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ElectronicVicesHow typical. Instead of addressing the rebuttles to your false accusations you drop a bunch of pseudointellectual nonsense and act like you're taking the high road by bowing out.
Aug 15, 2018
zbells
234
Aug 16, 2018
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Project86I mean I guess so. But maybe you prefer matte black to glossy black or silver too. Would you say their choice to make the unit matte black instead of silver or glossy black was due to the "care" they put into the design? I probably wouldn't.
Aug 16, 2018
CEE_TEE
3480
Aug 16, 2018
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zbellsWe did consider glossy for the line, but due to cost and cleaning went with matte. We hope that when you pick up one of our DACs or Amps, you feel like we made something substantial for you...
Aug 16, 2018
jsmiller58
804
Aug 17, 2018
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ElectronicVicesI do agree that there is quite a bit of extremist “party politics” on these sites. However, by far, far, far and away the greatest extremism is on the SBAF site. To the point that it is seriously sophomoric (my guess is SOME - and I stress SOME - members are 14 / 15 year old juvenile males). One post even went so far as to make a personal joke of Amir and his wife and his, umm, performance being schitt which he misinterpreted as Schiit was bad. And many members enjoyed themselves over that post. And that was just one of the clearly PERSONAL attacks against Amir - not his work, but against him as a human being. By the way, the minute I read that post that was enough for me and I signed up to be a Patreon of Amir’s - if the attacks had to stoop to that level, he must be pretty good, because as they say you can measure the worth of a man by the quality of his enemies. I can add examples of new SBAF members who would post an opinion on their impressions only to be roundly knocked down by current members for not having yet earned the right to give their opinions...
I read, enjoy, and learn from all three - ASR, SBAF, and Head-fi, and also others. But there is clearly, and definitely a cultural / attitude / bias difference that I have to filter out. And SBAF, for its many positive qualities and members I have to admit has many more negatives against it. The worst negative is the ad hominem nature of their arguments - go after the person if you don’t like the conclusion. The second is their old boys club mentality - your opinion is worthless unless you have properly proven yourself to the trusted inner circle. But they also have sufficient positives to keep me coming back; truly knowledgeable audiophiles with lots of good gear and history with it. Like a highly biased news network that still has excellent reporting, I go there for information, but turn my filters on very, very high. Yes, SBAF is a good site for subjective listening impressions, I just wish they would address their serious cultural issues.
ASR in general - not always - is much, much more out of the muck than SBAF. There are times when members go too far in attacking people rather than debate ideas. But I haven’t seen it be nearly as vicious, and it is much rarer. And I truly believe that Amir has no serious axe to grind. And when he gets it wrong on ASR there are other members with their own equipment and measurements that challenge him, and when warranted he edits and changes his results. That’s the nature of an objective argument - if it’s about the data then one debates the conditions the data was gathered in and debate how to interpret the numbers, but it is all very, well, dry, and helps to keep emotions in check. Subjective arguments can get much more heated because it involves people’s opinions with no way to measure the answers as right and wrong, and thus can get closer to individuals sense of self worth.
One last comment. Do objective measurements, in conjunction with subjective listening, matter? I believe so, and I will tell you why I think so. Ever hear of the quote "Who knows what evil lurks in the hearts of men?“ If someone outwardly behaves well, but is evil inside will they always outwardly behave well under all circumstances, or will they one day surprise you? With audio equipment we have the opportunity to pick great sounding stuff that we can be confident will continue to sound good as our audio chains evolve and grow if the underlying engineering of each of our components is excellent. What is so wrong with that?
Aug 17, 2018
zbells
234
Aug 17, 2018
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CEE_TEEThank you for the feedback @CEE_TEE, I love the work you're doing with these collaborations and love the LCX I recently picked up. I guess this was largely a matter of semantics. Even though I prefer brushed aluminum, I think you guys made a fine choice to go with matte black, certainly more preferable to me than glossy black (although there are pluses and minuses to everything.)
I suppose what I and perhaps others were getting at was a critique of the "community reviews" process. Since these units aren't available to test out and aren't widely distributed for dozens and dozens of reviews like products already to market, we're left to rely on the folks you deem worthy of reviewing. I don't know anyone personally, but I'm sure they're all good people and very knowledgeable and all audio lovers. As you might imagine however, it can be tough to really trust these reviews knowing that the reviewers were hand-picked by the manufacturer to write reviews that would then be used on the manufacturers product page... With that grain of salt already in my head, I might be a little more prone to calling out what I deem to be "shillish comments".
With that said, I don't want to take away from what I do believe is a great product! The Massdrop model, while awesome in a lot of ways (saving those $$ and your dope collaborations), just leaves something to be desired (perhaps unavoidably) in the pre-drop reviews process.
Aug 17, 2018
Jimster480
395
Aug 17, 2018
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jsmiller58I'm glad to see someone admit this. It seems that most everyone these days wants to deny that there are any politics in the industry or on any of the forums.
Aug 17, 2018
Artifiz
180
Aug 17, 2018
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zbellsI don't trust "professional reviewers." Their reviews are most of the time (99%) deceiving. They are sponsored, much like paid ads. Professional reviewers always exaggerate on features that they know we look for in a device. That's why I wait until "real people" get their hands on the device and express their "honest opinions" about the item's best features and weaknesses, if any.
Aug 17, 2018
AcousticWhisper
45
Aug 17, 2018
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ArtifizI would buy anything based on reviews from supposed trusted ears from forums like headfi or sbaf. Less than half of what they say was true and the rest just lies. I now just rely on the product's specs. I don't buy the lies told by cheaply paid advertisers anymore.
Aug 17, 2018
jsmiller58
804
Aug 17, 2018
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AcousticWhisperWe are all better off if we think of all these inputs - specs, measurements, professional reviewers, advertising, individual impressions, etc - as just individual pixels in a big photo. You have to look at the totality to make your own decisions. And each of us will weigh each pixel differently based on our experience and biases, but they are all still useful (even when we weigh them with a negative multiplier such as coming from a source we might not trust)!
In the end folks this is not about who is right or wrong, better, or worse. It is about each of us, in our own way, achieving whatever Audio bliss we can find for ourselves!
Aug 17, 2018
jsmiller58
804
Aug 17, 2018
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Jimster480That’s the thing about the internet... there are so many opportunities for “birds of a feather to flock together”. As a result opinions are reinforced by likeminded people, and contrary opinion holders are expelled from that collective, only to find another collective where they fit in better and have their opinions validated, and in turn reinforce the opinions of others...
I for one love the old line - “I don’t want to be a member of any club that would have me!”
Seriously, though, why hang out only with people that agree with you? How can you learn anything new? Where’s the fun in that?
I only ask for constructive and civil discord. And that is, sadly, in short supply these days.
Aug 17, 2018
Frogmeat
562
Aug 18, 2018
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ArtifizDon't think Amir ever said they are "pieces of crap" or anything close, he measures them, gives you his results, then states if he recommends them or not because of those measurements. You might like the way it sounds, you might not, he is just showing how they measure up, and people lose their frigging minds over it. I have a TEAC NT 503, measurements were ok, nothing stellar, but I still use it because I like how it sounds to my ears, and don't get offended or triggered by Amir's measurements. And if I had the extra cash I would probably join this drop, just because I am curious about these types of DACs, even though they don't measure perfect, and this would be a more affordable way to try it.
Aug 18, 2018
Soundscapes
24
Aug 18, 2018
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FrogmeatI stopped going to his site (ASR) since most of his reviews are off. None of his comments regarding a specific product bothers me, its just that what he recommends isn't that great. He praises the Topping Dacs and I took his advice and bought the D30(for my office) and D50(home). I said great, finally someone recommends dacs that are good... I ended up selling both (D30 and D50). My R2R-2 and Mimby had more musicality, detail, and soundstage, it short they sounded lot better than the topping dacs he praises so much.
Aug 18, 2018
jsmiller58
804
Aug 18, 2018
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SoundscapesI am glad that you found DACs that you like!
I don’t have a lot of experience with different DACs, but I do have the D50, the Audio-GD NFB 11.38, and the iFi xDSD. Of these, I consistently prefer the the sound of the D50. I purchased the D50 largely based on what I read on ASR and am very happy I did. No experience with any Schit products, though, and neither have I ever heard or used an R2R type DAC.
in the end measurements have to be taken as only one of N inputs... how something sounds to you based on your audio chain and your preferences has to be the most important input, of course. Let’s face it, there are reasons why some people like tubes - they prefer some distortion, and Amir’s approach eliminates anything that distorts... But measurements may help you identify any problems you haven’t run into and may in the future should you change your audio chain. But your listening preferences should always take precedence, with measurements supplementing that.
Aug 18, 2018
Frogmeat
562
Aug 18, 2018
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SoundscapesI have the D50 and like it, but now I have the SU-8 hooked up and have really been considering selling all my other DACs, the SMSL just sounds very good with my headphone amps, and my cheapo powered desk speakers. Would still like to try this Dac, though. Need a money tree, lol.
Aug 18, 2018
Allan_Cross
36
Aug 19, 2018
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jsmiller58Strict accuracy deters me from listening good music. If there is an electronic device needed to find "distortions not detectable by the human ear", then why do I need these tests? Mr. Amir measurement test of the Bimby(Bifrost Multibit) destroyed it and he doesn't recommended, but I find it a lot more enjoyable than the Topping D50 he recommends. I bought the D50 thinking it was the "best", based on his test. I am glad I bought it from a seller that took it back. IMHO, we shouldn't pay much attention to these measurements. I worked and lived in Spain for many years, learned to play the flamenco guitar. Lots of people around the world prefer to listen to flamenco guitar music (rumba) than to a good classical guitar album, me included. However, does the flamenco guitar sound as clean and as pure as a classical guitar? Never, flamenco guitar's main feature is its dirty sound (strings are positioned lowered on the arm of a flamenco guitar hitting the metal frets causing "distorting" metallic sound on every rasgueado(strum) all the contrary in a classical guitar which sound is always pure and clean). I know many prefer clean and nice sound, but to people like me, detecting distortion is useless if what I hear makes me smile and enjoy life.
Aug 19, 2018
jsmiller58
804
Aug 19, 2018
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Allan_CrossIt is always a good thing when you know what you like, and I am glad you do!
I would suggest you to consider why you like the Bimby - and dont like the D50 - and how measurements can help you identify why you like what you like and thus predict in advance other products you might like or not... You might like the effect of certain harmonics, for example. You might like a flat frequency response, or maybe something different. Amir looks for and likes/dislikes certain traits. Point here is that YOU - or anyone else - do not have to agree with Amir. But the information may still be useful to you. If the information is about inaudible imperfections, then by all means simply “filter it out”. Goodness, I can’t fire up my computer without being bombarded by largely useless information that I have to weed through.
It seems that the issue is that Amir talks badly about products that others love. For example, your comment about Amir ruining the Bimby... how could he have done that? One man, one relatively obscure website by comparison to the audio community and market... In my opinion, people are being very insecure... Amir‘s conclusions seem to challenge them in some way, as though their intelligence or sense of self worth in the decisions they made is being called into question - it is taken very personally. To that, I say, who should care what Amir (or anyone else) likes or doesn’t? Why can’t you derive from his work what is useful to you, and ignore his conclusions? Or just completely ignore him... but the sophomoric reactions to Amir make me think something deeper is at play than simple disagreement with conclusions. It is, somehow, deeply personal.
You have clearly stated you did not like the D50. I on the other hand like it a great deal. I don’t take offense in the least. Does that make one of us wrong and one of us right? No. Instead I applaud you for knowing what you like and don’t like.
Use your ears first and foremost. But also use your brain to see if there is extra information in the measurements that can help you out. And finally, don’t take any of this personally. Everyone, despite what you see in the media and hear on school campuses, is actually entitled to have their own opinion. Everyone else at worst should live with it, and at best defend their right to hold a contrary perspective to their own.
Aug 19, 2018
Heavyboxer
380
Aug 20, 2018
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jsmiller58Not replying to you specifically, just want to subscribe to this interesting chat.
In my headphone land, i have the schiit mimby, audio gd R2R-11 andan incoming r28. Me likes. If I like the R28, then next is the R2R-7HE in a year's time.
Amir, i heard of him and only just got to read a review for the first time a couple of days ago... I also stopped reading, as i realise what he hears is different from what i hear, so there was no need to go on... nothing against him, just not a reviewer that suit my needs.
Aug 20, 2018
jsmiller58
804
Aug 20, 2018
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HeavyboxerA perfectly logical thought process and conclusion! While I do follow Amir, I respect anyone who doesn't. I just ask people keep it civil, as you just did :-)
Aug 20, 2018
JammingAlong
25
Aug 22, 2018
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HeavyboxerSame here, I heard about that site and read a couple of Amir reviews and immediately knew I wouldn't learn anything there. His reviews are weak and his measurements tests aren't that accurate. He might have been a good software developer, but Amir still has a lot to learn about the audio industry.
Aug 22, 2018
JammingAlong
25
Aug 22, 2018
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jsmiller58I have the Topping D50 and while I must admit it is a good DAC, its too warm and dark for my taste. My collection of audio equipment is too much. I have Teac, Schiit, Topping, ELDACs and Audio GD, Cavalli's, etc. I know you guys (Amir's Followers) think Audio GD isn't worth it, but IMHO their R2R dacs are great. I prefer to listen to my R2R-1 any time while my Topping D50 is boxed sitting in the closet. From my experience the D50 doesn't pair well with many headphones. My Fostex THX-00 Ebonies sound too bassy and too dark, but my HE-560 sound great with the D50. I hope you give a good R2R DAC a listen sometime, really.
Aug 22, 2018
jsmiller58
804
Aug 22, 2018
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JammingAlong”I know you guys (Amir's Followers) think Audio GD isn't worth it”... see, now there is a mistake on your part... Folks who read ASR are no more a cult than SBAF readers... and I happen to lurk on both :-) :-) :-).
my desktop gear:
Audio-GD NFB 11.38 Aune X7s MD CTH MD LCX Little Dot Mk II Topping D50 Topping DX7s (on the way) MD THX 789 (on order) Really would love more gear ... why? ‘Cause it’s there!
as you you can see I proudly own an Audio-GD Product... in fact I spent much of this evening listening to my Audio-GD 11.38 playing through my Sundara, and to mix it up the rest of the evening my D50 through my MD LCX playing on my Focal Elex - I enjoyed the heck out myself ;-)
So please, try not too to paint with a broad brush, OK? ;-)
As to how the D50 sounds... it will sound different through different AMPs and headphones (in addition to the above desktop gear I have a dozen headphones so have done quite a few experiments). In my experience I actually found the NFB to be a whole lot more sensitive to the amp and headphone pairing than the D50...
Aug 22, 2018
jsmiller58
804
Aug 22, 2018
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JammingAlongIf you know more about Audio measurement methodology than Amir I would implore you to post your thoughts on ASR. It would benefit the entire community readership. Based on my reading Amir would be receptive. Constructive confrontation of an issue - working the problem and not attacking the person - usually is the winning strategy :-)
Aug 22, 2018
RockyMountains
478
Aug 24, 2018
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jsmiller58I for one love the old line - “I don’t want to be a member of any club that would have me!”

Well, if you're supporting ASR via Patreon, you're now a member of a club that includes Jimster, who sells Counter-Strike:GO cheats online for a living. What does that activity say about character?
Aug 24, 2018
jsmiller58
804
Aug 24, 2018
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RockyMountainsThat is a funny line and I stand by what I said - I love it! And that’s as far as I went with it.
I also said I lurk on both sites :-); I chose to financially support ASR because I despise bullying, and that is what I was seeing more of on one site than the other. Before you respond note the “seeing more of”. A subjective observation by a fallible human. Still I stand by it.
Regarding equating Jimster and anything he may or may not do on the side with the merit or demerits of any other site like ASR... see my response a couple of posts above... don’t paint with a broad brush! Guilt by association is kinda lowbrow thinking, wouldn’t you agree?
Aug 24, 2018
RockyMountains
478
Aug 24, 2018
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jsmiller58I do think that guilt by association is also sometimes valid. Jimster is overly vocal here, but he's also vocal on ASR and seems to be welcomed as an insider there- if nobody on ASR is prepared to reign in his behaviour, it's certainly a reflection of what behaviours are tolerated or tacitly encouraged by ASR members. Come to think of it, his behaviour there and here is... identical.
Some sites such as SBAF and much more so Headcase have their share of infantile behavior, and sometimes it gets very nasty. But it tends to stay on those sites. ASR fans seem to have a need to keep trying to push their own infantile behavior into other parts of the internet- they are constantly trying to evangelize the their site on Massrop, Reddit and PC audio forums. But their message usually seems to be just pushing hate.
Aug 24, 2018
JammingAlong
25
Aug 24, 2018
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RockyMountains"ASR fans seem to have a need to keep trying to push their own infantile behavior into other parts of the internet- they are constantly trying to evangelize the their site on Massrop, Reddit and PC audio forums. But their message usually seems to be just pushing hate." Perfectly stated! They are only bringing hate to Amir. A good site will always promote itself and become highly noticed "if it is good" without any need of offending, badmouthing, or bullying others.
Aug 24, 2018
jsmiller58
804
Aug 24, 2018
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JammingAlongWell guys I will both respect your opinions as well as disagree. In my own experience perusing Massdrop, Head-fi, etc - and certainly your experience could far exceed mine - I have not seen much ”infantile” or even proselytizing behavior that you mention bleeding significantly from one site onto this site. I do see some, sure, but seems pretty limited. But maybe I just need to poke around some more!
As to one person going uncivil on ASR and thus being the responsibility of those members to police that individual... well, I have seen pretty ugly personal attacks in the other site and... those posters attract likes and general Atta-boys for their postings. I think there is plenty of this to go around if you want to claim a site’s members are responsible for other members. To give credit where credit is due, I have seen moderators on all sites eventually step in.
I want what I would hope everyone else wants (but I doubt it is the case)... civil discord that can end in people respecting the position of the other party even if they thoroughly disagree with them. One man’s garbage is another man’s treasure has never been more true than in Audio where so much is going on that it is easy for different people to draw conclusions that are rational for them and different than everyone else... If I say X is garbage and you say it is great, and you say Y is garbage an I say Y is great, we are actually both right in each of those assessments within our frame of reference. It is not that people have different opinions is the problem, it is how people react to those different opinions that is the problem. For example, I have Senn HD6XX, Senn 660s, and Senn 58X, and honestly I can’t figure out what the fuss is about... but there are equally enthusiastic supporters of those cans and I am happy they are enjoying them but I would not be surprised if I was called a trogladyte for not thinking they are the second coming!
The name of the game is to agree to disagree. If someone goes off the rails and is uncivil or fails to put forward their positions constructively, it is best for you to just filter them out of your life as they are not worth your trouble. Don’t go into the dirt with them.
However, don’t just ignore people you disagree with - they are the ones you might be able to learn from... just ignore the ones that only bring poison and not ideas to the conversation. And I have no issue if you conclude that Amir on ASR or conversely his equivalents on SBAF do or do not bring something to learn from, or only poison.
My suggestion is to keep responses civil and constructive, or just simply ignore if you think it is poison. But responding by calling into question the motives, competencies, physical tributes, intelligence, and even worse, of someone you have never met is pretty inexcusable. And yes, when Amir (or anyone else on ASR) does it, that is equally inexcusable as when someone from SBAF does it.
Aug 24, 2018
jsmiller58
804
Aug 29, 2018
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RockyMountainsDo you really believe what you wrote - " I do think that guilt by association is also sometimes valid "
You cannot taint the others on a forum for the objectionable posts of a few, unless they stand by for truly serious offences. Where online forums are concerned, barring someone seriously bullying another party, disclosing personally confidential information, or criminal behavior, and others stand by while it is done, that statement is simply patently not true. You cannot taint the others on a forum for the objectionable, but ultimately very banal, postings of a few. Of course that is different for truly serious offences, but point out one of those on this form, or ASR, or SBAF, that you would want the crowd to rise up against. You will find that a reasonable standard is a very high standard (unless you are a believer in safe places where you don't need to be confronted by those who think differently... then please go find your happy place and have a great life!!).
These are discussion forums, treat them like that, and stop believing that you are so right that others must conform to your beliefs. Have perspective. Respect what others say - debate it, but respect it. Live and let live. At worst, simply IGNORE those who bring nothing constructive to the conversation. Hint - "constructive" does not mean that they agree with you. I do not agree with you, and I suspect you do not agree with me, but I hope you see that in this post I am trying to engage you constructively and appeal to your better angels.
I look on forums across the internet and I also watch numerous news networks and what I see makes me fear for where our society is going. What happened to the basic tenet of Western Civilization and its fundamental freedoms associated with free speech, and frankly the right to be who and what you want to be - " I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it "? Think about just how fundamental that is to everything - not just the spoken or written word - that statement really implies. I will defend you, regardless of my personal opinion, because you simply have a right to be!!
While disagree completely with what you wrote, I believe you have your right to that opinion, and to express it.
Aug 29, 2018
Jaytal
174
Dec 26, 2018
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jsmiller58Guilt by association is an extremely valid concept. You choose to front a community that you partake in.
Dec 26, 2018
lupi900
28
Nov 9, 2019
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RockyMountainsReally love how ASR users contradict there weak arguments. I really find it funny a science site has to ignore that +5 people will different views on how gear sounds. Not to mention nothing on that site is valid after the owner used a broken Schitt amps to go how they measure bad. lol
Nov 9, 2019
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