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CEE_TEE
3480
Aug 11, 2017
Oh boy... Where do I start?? The journey, the designer, or the amp?
As an enthusiast myself, the coolest thing at Massdrop is getting to work with and know the people who make our favorite stuff. I’ve had the privilege of being able to speak with and learn from Alex Cavalli over the past year while working on this new amp with him. I understand more about the design decisions in amplifiers and what’s possible given different goals and constraints. (Though Alex would probably half-joke that “it still isn’t much”.)
Entry-level End-game Amp? Is that a category?
This project started out as a conversation to take a community-favorite DIY amp engineered by a community-favorite designer and make it accessible at an entry-level pricepoint. But when the prototype arrived, it had been completely re-worked by Alex. In comparison to the original Compact Tube Hybrid, it was a whole new amp. Sticking to the original vision, we worked toward the most accessible pricepoint possible while keeping the high-end sound that Alex passed down from his more expensive and more powerful amps. The amp needed to be audiophile-approved, more affordable, and simple to use. It also deserved a nice chassis, one that has some room in it and some stackability…
I’m sure there will be a lot more discussion these next few weeks. We’re working with Alex to have some information for those interested regarding the differences between the Compact Tube Hybrid and the Cavalli Tube Hybrid. Alex happens to have some travel during the drop so we may have a Q&A session where we’ll collect questions and Alex will answer them during the second half of the drop.
This is an important step for Massdrop, it marks the evolution of our ability to work with the best partners and designers to bring you the best versions of products for our communities. Each one of these collaborations is the result of our coming together to keep growing and moving our hobby forward.
Thanks for your participation!
EDIT 8/12/17: Here is a link if you are interested in the differences between the original COMPACT Tube Hybrid and the new CAVALLI Tube Hybrid. https://www.massdrop.com/talk/2167/the-massdrop-x-alex-cavalli-tube-hybrid-in-with-the-new
Vigrith
4081
Aug 11, 2017
CEE_TEELegend.
Elsid
697
Aug 12, 2017
CEE_TEEHI, I don't understand a lot about the electronics, but can you put some more specs and inside pics out, so the engineers in this community can explain it to us in lay terms? Thanks!
Submariner2
22
Aug 12, 2017
CEE_TEEVery many thanks Massdrop CEE_TEE . I am waitimg eagerly thıs Cavally's hybrid amp to use it with my HiFi Man Planar HE 4xxx which I had pledged it yesterday at Massdrop and also Fostex T 900 , Sennheiser HD 650 , Grado PS 500e , Sony MDR-XB800 , Sony XBA-Z5 Hybrid IEM and etc
ChumbWumba
271
Aug 12, 2017
CEE_TEEI recently purchased an Audio GD NFB-11 based off of a lot of recommendations from those around here as well as from those in the Head-Fi community as a good 'entry-level endgame amp/DAC'. I think the NFB-11 is a tremendous listen for what is a great value in my eyes..yet it's still priced at a level most non-audiophiles and most people in general consider it to be a sort of a luxury item. This brings that price point down into an even more affordable level, and I'll be very curious to see reviews for this new CTH, as well as how it compares to community favorites and recommendations like the Schiit stack, Jotunheim, and my own NFB-11, as well as many others!
Anyway, I'm super excited to read about this. It's always nice to see better and better quality equipment and technology trickle down into packages that are more and more accessible at lower price points than ever seemed possible ever before. This product sounds like it's built on strong heritage with amazing technology as well as great goals in mind for marketing and pricing.
Massdrop has truly done an excellent job on the vast majority of their collaberations here in the audiophile world, both in quality, and pricing and accessibility, and I'm genuinely grateful to have the chance to be a part of this community and to help it grow more and more as time goes by.
A true thank you to Massdrop for always trying to listen to the people and respond with high-quality offerings that attempt to address the community and their collective wants and needs. Here's to hoping for a continued successful run of current and future collaberations within the community!
CEE_TEEHey folks, I am traveling and will be pretty remote for a while, but there are a few things I'd like to say and a few questions I'd like to answer that seem to have come up a number of times.
First, I have to say what a great pleasure it has been to work with CEE TEE and the MD team. We've been working on this little project for quite a while and everyone at MD has been dedicated to making the best product we can make at a price point that is affordable to most people.
Another thing about this project has been the opportunity to bring back one of the DIY projects and make it available to the community where all of my work was started.
Some have wondered about quality of product. Here are some things to know.
This version of CTH is a new design, entirely mine. It's a significantly beefed up version of the DIY CTH, which was, during its time, a fairly popular project. It sounded pretty good too. But the original CTH just doesn't have the power to deal with some of our modern planars and its circuit technology is a bit out of date.
For those of you wondering, I built all of the prototype boards as we progressed towards the final version. I also designed and laid out all of the boards, including the production board that you will receive, and specified the board fab parameters.
All of the parts in the amp are specified by me and there are no subs without my approval and collab with CEE TEE and the team. This applies to the production pieces. The component quality in this amp is equal to the quality in the Liquid Carbon.
I think that MD did a really nice job on the box. It is clean and simple, but with some very appealing details (like the vent holes). As some of you have discerned it is stackable.
I believe that you will find that this is a well made product.
I hope that those of you who eventually buy the CTH will also find that it's a really good entry level amp that, perhaps, out-punches its weight class. At least I can believe that will be the case while I am hiking around Yellowstone NP over the next week ducking geysers and bears. :) :)
Jaggi
737
Aug 13, 2017
AlexCavalliHi Alex, If you get a chance I'd like to hear the reasoning behind choosing an 8x gain setting.
This is the one spec that concerns me. I noted that one of the reviewers commented that with a 'hot source' he would 'trigger the protection circuit' when he cranked the volume, and that most of the time the volume control was only used between the 8 and 9 o'clock positions. How difficult would it be for users to modify the gain?
Does the amp have a fixed max output voltage? The power output spec given here seems to indicate a max output of just over 7v but I'm not sure if that will apply across other impedance levels.
JaggiGood question. Gain is always a trade off. Since the active devices, whether tube or SS, usually have too much raw gain, we have to reduce the gain somehow. Much of the time this is done with negative feedback, sometimes local and sometimes global and very often both. Different amp topologies respond differently to NFB. My rule of thumb tends to be this:
Keep what's called the open loop gain (the raw gain) fairly low. Then apply the minimum NFB that is needed to achieve the closed loop (actual gain) that you need. That is, the less NFB the better. There are a number of trade-offs here too, including the final THD, IMD, bandwidth, and noise.
One fairly uniform result of too much NFB seems to be a sense of loss of imaging (depending on how well the NFB is done). This is generally easily discernible if you can A/B the exact same amp with different amounts of NFB.
As an aside, way back in the 1970s and 80s when transistors had fully replaced tubes in power amps, there was a very common amp topology that nearly all manuf of retail hifi (including cars) used. These amps generally used very large amounts of NFB to get the THD into reasonable limits. The problem was that they tended to all sound the same and this sameness was due to the high amounts of NFB.
The other set of trade-offs is source output levels (which tend to be fairly high these days MHO is that the source outputs are generally too high for the headphone world), pot rotation to get a comfortable listening level, and headphone sensitivity.
It is nearly impossible to satisfy all of these conditions at the same time for every possible source and headphones and their combinations. So every amp is a set of choices that the designer(s) makes to hit the product targets and to work well with as many combinations as possible.
I have found with the bigger amps that a gain of 8X seems to hit the best spot in this parameter space (at least for the topologies that I've used for my amps) and sources and headphones that are available to us (which is a huge number). I suspect this may be true for many, but perhaps not all amps. And by best spot I mean flatness of freq response, imaging, resolution, clarity, musicality, THD, etc.
The only exception to this has been the Carbon which was designed from the start to have unity gain (1X) so that it could be useful driving IEMs.
It is not easy for users to mod the gain which involves swapping a few components on the board. Although it could be done. Might void MD's warranty though. :)
The CTH has a maximum peak voltage excursion of 10V (1WRMS @ 50R). It should apply to all headphone impedances that I know about. Although you might not think so, 1W is a lot of listening power even in the speaker world. I have played LCD2 out of the amp without difficulty (although it is not the most power sucking headphone around).
Other amp designers will, of course, have their own thoughts about this.
Does this help??
Jaggi
737
Aug 13, 2017
AlexCavalliThanks very much for the detailed response, it explains a lot!
To be honest I'd been assuming that the gain could be altered quite simply just by changing a few resistors or something similar without affecting the overall sound of the amp. However after posting my query to you I actually went and read the article about the new amp linked by CEE_TEE in the top post and realized it was probably a bit more complicated than I'd thought :)
Would I be correct in concluding that while the gain could be changed by exchanging a few components it would have more effect than simply altering the gain, and that altering the gain would therefor also necessarily alter the amp's sound signature?
Regarding the output voltage, again thanks for the clarification. Would it be safe then to use the following formula to approximate the amp's max output power into varying impedance loads:
7.07 / Z x 7.07 = W
Where 7.07 is the maximum rms output voltage and Z is the impedance of the headphone + amp, or are there other factors that need to be accounted for? I guess at some point the output must become current limited, either by design or by destruction of the amp :)
JaggiIn my experience there are few amps whose signature is not altered at least somewhat by changing NFB.
The change, however, is really only a matter of two resistors.
Formula is correct. Easier for head calcs to use W = 50 / Z. [RMS Power = (Vp * Vp) / (2 *Z)]
The PS has a fair amount of headroom so I don't think you will hit a current limit unless Z is something below 20R (approximately). Usually, the lower the Z the more sensitive so we generally get to unlistenable volumes before we hit the limit.
Jaggi
737
Aug 13, 2017
AlexCavalliThanks again Alex, especially for the simpler formula :)
bigjim
162
Aug 13, 2017
AlexCavalliIf this is an entry level amp, what improvements in sound quality reproduction would one expect from an ABOVE entry level amp? (Excluding nicer hardware, of course.) Have fun in Yosemite!
Tigeh
22
Aug 14, 2017
bigjimThis may be an 'entry' level amp but I'd bet that even tube/solid state comparisons aside, you should be aware that beta testers of this amp generally comfortably prefer it to the 'reigning king' of tube amps at this price point - Schiit's Valhalla 2 ($349). Improve the power supply and this will comfortably go up against anything up to $800 imo, maybe higher - @AlexCavalli isn't just an all-round nice guy but he's an all-round genius and while this amp doesn't carry a four digit price tag like his others, it's by all accounts truly part of the family, both in sonic signature and overall quality. Sure, it'll miss a bit of bass heft and slam, a tiny bit of transparency and timing, and not sound quite as crisp and 'unveiled', but you're saving $1000-2000+ into the bargain, and it's money most would rather spend on headphones at least initially.
bigjim
162
Aug 14, 2017
TigehThanks for the comment, Tigeh. Were you one of the beta testers for this amp?
AudioAlchemy
9
Aug 14, 2017
CEE_TEEWell written CEE-TEE
Tigeh
22
Aug 14, 2017
bigjimSadly not! I was watching it since early info came out and planning to pair it with a pair of HD6XXs, but my son had to fly interstate for urgent medical treatment and with it went the funds I'd been saving for 3 years for a combo like it.
Rather have my boy alive and no amp, but I'd jump on anything @AlexCavalli offers whatever the price - I soldered up 5 of the old CTH kits for friends back in the day and they were an excellent product for both the time and the price.
While times have changed, this amp has too, and the changes are both sensible and fairly massive. It's too unassuming in looks to be called a beast, but I'd say >90% of people who buy it will be delighted with the purchase. Of the rest, some will know and prefer a different acoustic signature, others will compare to their favourite product at a much higher price and decide it's good for the money, and the rest simply can't be pleased.
I'd love for it to have a remote as I'm not earning (spinal cord injury w/ painsomnia and other issues ruined my ability to do so), but for cost and quality it's otherwise perfect for my wants
At least Alex knows what it is to put his sons needs first - by all accounts it's how he got into the business!
el1x
12
Aug 14, 2017
CEE_TEEAny chance of knowing or getting hold of the cable you have pictured with the amp. Looks to be a great match for the HD6XX.
CEE_TEE
3480
Aug 14, 2017
el1xGood eyes. Yes, I know Matt is working on that. Let me check in with him. (I think that cable is made by a wild man...)
Submariner2
22
Aug 15, 2017
AlexCavalliVery many thanks dear sir AlexCavalli , the most expert Tube Amp designer and producer . Is it possible to upgrade it with balanced connection . If this could be possible we will be great thankful to you and pay to the project much more money as pledging here at Maasdrope . Best Reards
Levvy
78
Aug 15, 2017
Was it mentioned the CHT uses a Class D amp? Seem to missed it
CEE_TEE
3480
Aug 15, 2017
Hey D2Girls, Slight correction:  this is not a Class D amp.
Rodmunch
179
Aug 15, 2017
I reported your post, I'm surprised CEE_TEE didn't delete it. You should do some research before you go making uneducated claims and calling people rude names. Maybe you should also find a community that isn't so "dumb" and just leave us be.
I for one am very happy to see products like this on Massdrop. This is why I stick around. I might not like the long delivery period but I've been very impressed with all of the Massdrop collaborations I've purchased.
Tanthanis
69
Aug 17, 2017
I took a look at your bio and it is interesting. You have stated that you 'Don't know why I'm here.' but by looking at your post history it seems like you are only here to post negative comments. You have also not participated in any drops in the past. Why must you waste people's time? I'm sure you have better things to do with your time.
Tigerman
412
Aug 18, 2017
AlexCavalliI was really interested to read what you wrote about gain, as well as your comments on other aspects of amp design. You nearly, but not quite, answered a question I've had for a long time. It seems to me that most headphones can play plenty loud with unity gain, so I'm surprised that there aren't more amps that skip voltage amplification. For example, I found this table of input needs for a bunch of headphones, and nearly all of them can reach 110 dB sound pressure level at 2.0 V RMS input, which popular DACs like the modi multibit output. http://www.superbestaudiofriends.org/index.php?attachments/upload_2015-10-13_7-37-16-png.369/ As far as I can tell, most people are pointlessly dropping the signal level with the volume pot and then amplifying it back to less that the source output level. Since, as you said, and surely everyone agrees, a solid state buffer is quite transparent, I would have thought there'd be a big category of headphone amps that boast better transparency by having only a unity gain buffer. I'm really curious why this isn't the case. It's rare to be able to ask a designer about this, so thanks very much for your comments.
TigermanWell.....I agree. Which is why the Liquid Carbon has a gain of 1X.
MusicIsGreat
205
Aug 18, 2017
AlexCavalliAlex, a pleasure to see your involvement with Massdrop and the offering of one of your tube hybrid based designs at an affordable price. I have a few solid state amps of my own and was present at both of your LC offerings, every time with hesitation, not because I don't believe your amps are not first class but basically because of my frugal behavior when it comes to electronics. The CTH is more within the price range I am willing to pay however I never had any interests about tubes until you came along. I always admire your openness in discussing designs, your passion and willingness to help are addictive. Thank you for educating and making us better consumers. Having said that, I like the duality of SS and tube, seems to be the best synergy between two technologies. I noticed in tube designs that there can be multiple tubes, what are the advantages of multi tube designs versus a single one? The reason I ask is; are there advantages in keeping the design simple versus sound quality?
BrainFlush
6860
Aug 18, 2017
AlexCavalliJesus. He's here. MassDrop give this man a tag! It's only 4am. Why are you all sleeping?
I know nothing about audio but I respect you and your greatness for many reasons as stated in the comment section but one is undoubtly undeniable because of MassDrop and this collaboration between you two.
I want this but I don't know if I can appreciate it. At least I now know who you are and if I ever jump into audio, you're at the top of my list. Take care.
MusicIsGreatThis depends on what you're trying to achieve with the design of the amp, but I believe this old saying applies almost all of the time: the simpler the better.
To be more specific, every active device (and even passive ones) introduce non-linear effects into the amp. Every single one. A large part of the work that amp designers have been doing for decades, if they are tying to make good amps, is dealing with these non-linearities. Many, many methods have been devised for this.
So one can argue in the simplest sense that ---- if every device adds non-linearity, then the fewest devices needed to get the job done is the best solution.
See the post somewhere about gain.
With dynamic headphone amps we don't need a lot of gain. In fact, most of the time, we don't need any at all.
Sometimes we can get all the gain we need with a single triode gain stage (1/2 of a 6922). If these is all the gain we need then we shouldn't needlessly complicate the amp any further with respect to the voltage gain.
Solid state amps are similar. One active device usually has enough voltage gain for a headphone amp.
Then there is the current (or power gain). That is, the output stage doesn't really need to amplify the voltage any further, but it does need to provide the current required by the headphones. Which, in the dynamic headphone world means dealing with loads anywhere from around 16 ohms to 600 ohms. Every impedance in between these two extremes will demand different current capacity from the amp.
So, in nearly all dynamic headphone amps (and non-electrostatic speaker amps) you're doing two things, amplifying voltage and amplifying current.
Another post to follow..................
AlexCavalliIn the simplest sense, then, the designer has two choices to make: 1) what type of device(s) do I use for the voltage gain and 2) what type of devices do I use for the current gain (power output)?
I am about to way over simplify and leave out details....
In general tubes are good at voltage gain, not so good at current gain. SS devices can do both.
If you choose all SS you have devices that can, therefore, fairly capably meet all the design needs.
If you use tubes at the input for the voltage gain and SS for the output current gain, you have used each type of device in a situation where it is highly capable. This is a hybrid.
If you use tubes for both input and output you are using tubes in the output stage where they are not especially capable, particularly because they may not have the current capacity. This is a tube amp and the limitations on the output stage can lead to things like HF rolloff as the headphone impedance goes lower and lower. I am referring to direct coupled or capacitor coupled tube output stages. I'm leaving out transformer output.
So, IMHO, there isn't really a purist type solution here. It's just a matter of implementing the design to use the strengths of the various active devices that we can buy from global electronic component manufacturers. Fortunately for us, this is an immense variety of stuff. :)
MusicisGreat, I think your question refers to my third alternative. This would be a multiple tube design and it can sound really good if design well or exhibit the limitations described above if not.
To complicate things even further, my over simplification has left out the fact that even in pure tube amps (these days) SS devices are often used in various elements of the circuit as auxiliary circuit elements. So you may think a tube amp is a pure tube amp when, sometimes, it's been polluted with SS devices. :)
In my non-Massdrop life, I have mostly designed and made available hybrid amps because I think they combine the best of both worlds, nice tube voltage amplification and good SS current amplification. The net result of this can be a very nice, transparent type of sound, which blends the best of tube and SS.
One more to follow.....
AlexCavalliI have oversimplified some.
Even though we generally only need the voltage gain of one device (in the headphone world) we can't always get away with that. And for current amplification we can't get away with that either. And the principle reason is that the non-linearites of that single device are unacceptable.
And so, to state what you all obviously already know, an amplifier has multiple active components which are deployed together to achieve the two necessary gains, while managing as best as possible the various non-linear effects of everything in use. Looking at the history of amp design, with the many brilliant amp designers over decades, many of them have done a pretty good job of it.
MusicIsGreat
205
Aug 21, 2017
AlexCavalliThank you so much for the information. Just one more question, related to tubes but not to this drop directly. I need a pre-amp which I can bypass the tube section if I want. I believe Schiit has such a device. Would it be effective and what would be the compromises/drawbacks going for this kind of implementation as opposed to a common pre-amp. Would it be better to have those two functions separate as opposed to within the same unit? As far as the tube section, would it be better that it is designed with a transformer as opposed to an hybrid coupled with the SS stage if I am interested in a more tuby sound?
Yes, you did. I missed it. My only excuse, FWIW, is that I've been looking at things like this:
search

I suppose my first answer would be, why would we aim for low linearity? I think what most designers aim for is something like this:
For the particular purpose of this amp, with the particular topology of the amp, within the engineering and manuf cost budget, how can I optimize all of the non-linearities (which we cannot completely eliminate) so that they each have as little audible effect as possible or even negligible effect. Effect on the wide ranging human experience of listening to music through electro-mechanical devices. One example of negligible might be the measured THD which no human ear, at all relevant frequencies, can hear and beyond which lowering the THD has no real practical effect.
Does this help? If not, let's try again.
BrainFlush
6860
Aug 22, 2017
AlexCavalliJesus. Enjoy your trip dude. Ignore MassDrop until you're home. I want a vacation!
Comments above were for any designer approaching the design of a new amp. In general, I would say it applies to all of those parameters you listed and some others too.
Yes, not completely the case for a variety of reasons. It depends on the specific intent of the design and the trade-offs the designer is willing to make to achieve the intent. It is, clearly, not a fixed rule or requirement that the only possible optimization of the various non-linearities always has to be minimizing the effect of every one of them.
BrainFlush
6860
Aug 23, 2017
Not to be a D. But can you not let him enjoy his trip? Drop doesn't end for like some time. Just saying.
robinhood752
201
Aug 23, 2017
BrainFlushOne shouldn't wait till last day to ask questions, when it is too late, as no one will have time to see it. I'm not saying that going on the trip on d-day is unresponsible, since mr. Cavalli is available to potential buyers. But telling people not to ask questions is definition of being a D.
(Edited)
BrainFlush
6860
Aug 23, 2017
robinhood752I'm not suggesting wait till the last day. But the customer(s) is just back to back on questions.
Alex answers, on trip or not. That's on him. I'm only suggesting some courtesy.
And honestly I feel like some of these questions in general are far above the price point for this amp. But that's just me.
Vansen
22
Aug 23, 2017
JaggiHey Jaggi, I wrote the comment you're referring to from impressions I've posted elsewhere. I was on the road the when typing those impression have and have revisited my areas of concern following my return home. Here are my update impressions regarding these comments...
I previously noted that with HE-500 and a hot source (Modi MB) the CTH would activate the protection circuit if I turned the volume well past my comfortable listening levels. The HE-500 is my hardest headphone to drive. Not as hard to drive as an HE-6 but much harder to drive than a Sennheiser.
I tried this without the headphones on to see what would happen/how far I could turn the pot. Alex has stated that there is protection circuit will activate if the amp sees a current level that it deems as potentially damaging to headphones.
Testing this specifically again since I just got home, here is how hard I can drive my HE-500 (NOT on my head): -With RSA F-117 phono preamp at it's normal minimum gain setting while being fed from an Ortofon 2M Blue cart, I was able to get full range on the volume pot without activating the protection circuit on the CTH. At max volume, the HE-500 was able to produce about 102 decibels as measured by an iPhone app with the microphone placed near the point where an ear would be. -With a Modi MB, which has a higher output level than the RSA F-117 at its minimum gain setting, I can get the volume pot to the 4 o'clock position before the protection circuit kicks in. At this point, the HE-500 produces about 106 decibels before the protection circuit activates.
I cannot really think of any sane person that would listen to music at these levels.
Also, as update to another comment I made about my listening to position on the volume pot, when I say I listen to music at lower volumes than 90% of most listeners, I mean it. When I listen to music on my JH13 or Noble X from an iPhone, my sustained listening is done on the second or third bar. Also, I had to return a DragonFly Red and Black because the volume was too loud for me at the lowest setting on both of these with IEMs. (I've mentioned this with the DFR elsewhere and have shared my thoughts about this with the Audioquest team.) I find this experience of mine to be true with full sized headphones, too. Perhaps I'm in the >99% category rather than the 90% category here. Regardless, the CTH was able to deliver balanced volume levels at low listening volumes while offering me the control I desire.
I guess, at this point, I'm not sure what question(s) you're asking me. :)
I don't recall mentioning "never measured" artifacts or things that have never been scientifically observed. I have only said that there is an array of well-known and and measurable non-linearities (or other parameters like Zo) which a designer can manage in various ways for whatever his purposes are in designing a particular amp.
I believe you misunderstood what I was saying or perhaps it wasn't said well enough. :)
I think my previous comment summarizes it.
BrainFlush
6860
Aug 24, 2017
Seriously?
Stop man. You are now a pest.
The lack of respect is mind boggling.
If you know so much. Make the God damn amp yourself.
Alex I'm sorry. But if this is the kind of tolerance you accept. I'm out. There is only so much you can say especially considering your stature. Feed him more and you only perpetuate tolerance of which I cannot abide by.
RockyMountains
478
Aug 24, 2017
BrainFlushJust report him. The ssam account seems to exist purely to dump on Schiit products and engage in sea lioning (continually engaging in pedantic argument under the guise of polite discourse).
His account was created a year ago, and he's never participated in a single drop.
http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/sea-lioning
Levvy
78
Aug 24, 2017
Kudos to you. People who never questions and simply accepts marketing bs like an iSheep unfortunately are found in droves in the Headfi community. Always glad to read more than to accept things blindly.
BrainFlush
6860
Aug 24, 2017
RockyMountainsHe has spent a lot. It's his hobby. I respect that and his desire for answers that are so technical. I don't think he is trolling, it's just become annoying. But then again I am not an audio addict like he is. All I was asking was to chill on the questions while Alex is out enjoying the world. I seem to be in the minority with that kind of thinking.
BrainFlush
6860
Aug 24, 2017
It's a $250 amp. I think your questions are far beyond this price point. I am the first to ask questions at the most basic level in general on things a company claims or for missing information. I get it man, but now I feel like you're just a broken record and especially at this price.
BrainFlush
6860
Aug 24, 2017
LevvyYou are right man, but at some stage it's become a low form of harassment. I wouldn't want people to buy into hype or overstated claims. Yet for $250 it's not something I think 90% of consumers are going to care about. Again I might be the only one thinking like this.
BrainFlush
6860
Aug 24, 2017
Because while I may not be an audio purist or hobbyist, I just don't see the significance. Meaning I just don't give a F. Alex could tell me that his amp makes my head explode from such powerful bass and I would say ok and try to blow my head off. Do I think I should take everything he says at face value? If I cared enough about audio and it were my hobby, then no because then I would know about all this gibberish being spouted. I am going to assume that the majority of us here on this drop page are not that into audio (it's not a lifestyle) while some are very much so (living it).
If your single purpose is to get an answer to that question because you feel it is a form of false advertisement. I can respect that, but at the same time, it's just getting boring now, I have lost interest in this drop and your posts.
I have made a lot of assumptions, I might be completely wrong in everything I have assumed in regards to the majority of people in on this drop. But that is why I am BrainFlush. I apologize if I offended anyone.
NotABot
424
Aug 24, 2017
BrainFlushYep, it's just a $250 amp. I ordered one just to try. It's not going to mean that I eat cup noodles for the next month. Nobody else cares about this, and I'd prefer that Alex just gets to enjoy his holiday as well.
It's definitely sealioning... or some kind of internet neurosis.
BrainFlush
6860
Aug 24, 2017
There we go. Got it. Respect dude! Let's see if you get your answer. I hope you do.
Take care.
BrainFlush
6860
Aug 24, 2017
NotABotThat's how I look at it from a non-technical standpoint. I'll be eating air soon. :D
I also somewhat get what he's asking. And his last response was decent enough that I truly hope he gets an answer. I didn't want to placate him or silence him. Let's see what happens.
robinhood752
201
Aug 24, 2017
RockyMountainsHow do you get upvoted for a lie?
Tigerman
412
Aug 24, 2017
Gain vs frequency ; output impedance vs frequency ; phase vs frequency ; all of the above vs load reactance ; also impulse response shape. I think most of those don't show up in THD/IMD measurements. In other words, distortion measurements don't cover timing accuracy, and are only steady-state into a resistive load. I think this whole discussion is a bit of a non-issue. There's plenty else to measure: it's all audible at some level.
Dilli
11
Aug 25, 2017
AlexCavalli I plan to buy the LCD-2. Was wandering if the CTH would do justice to these planars and could you give some impressions on the Sound
TRTLswag
11
Aug 25, 2017
DilliEveryone seems to say that the Monolith 1060 sound better than the LCD-2 if not the LCD-x so you should look into that before you make that investment. I'm sure that all 3 of these planars scale very well with amps.
Blazin
2
Aug 25, 2017
TRTLswag "everyone" is a bit of a stretch. I think most people prefer the LCD2. 1060 is good for the price
TRTLswag
11
Aug 25, 2017
BlazinFair enough
Hi there. It is possible that my hastily composed posts from the very few, poor wifi hotspots available while traveling caused some confusion by use of terms.
I can tell all of you, however, that the solar eclipse from the middle of Wyoming was downright spectacular. :)
I am happy to have further discussion, so long as we don't take up a lot of space from other people.
To start, how about if we just discuss THD? And before I try to answer what I think you are asking, perhaps you can tell me what you think THD is in an amplifier and how to measure it. Then I think we can have a good conversation.
TheNest
687
Aug 26, 2017
AlexCavalliI would expect a higher price point to have a conversation this serious about THD. Good luck sir. I would buy it if I were looking for a hybrid.
YellowBird
6
Aug 26, 2017
AlexCavalliTHD, a % of the output, that was not in the original signal. If the original wave was at 1K, then the second "harmonic" would be at 2K. Sort of an electrical echo. Even order harmonics are supposed to be less offensive and contribute to what most folks call tube sound. IMD is an additive, say the original signal at 1k and 4k, make and "echo" at 3k and 5k. Not as pleasing. Better to have the circuit "hum" along in harmony, so to speak.
BrainFlush
6860
Aug 26, 2017
TheNestI said the same. Let's see this play out like the fight tomorrow. :D
Motorrad
2898
Aug 26, 2017
you misread his earlier comments and are now projecting that upon the background of your mediocre understanding of circuit design. Painful to read your flailing, frankly.
Jackula
1743
Aug 26, 2017
AlexCavalliSubscribing to this thread, it's getting interesting :)
Tigerman
412
Aug 26, 2017
I hope you buy the amp, after all this!
Ok. Transfer function. Better place to start than THD. For your example, may I ask how you obtained the transfer function? Is it a mathematical model of an actual circuit or a circuit that could at least be built? Or is it an actual measurement of transfer function of a working amplifier?
audible
602
Aug 27, 2017
Apparently, he's the only only one in your 'discussion' who is being serious.
NotABot
424
Aug 27, 2017
@ssampord Someone with a hugely established track record of audio equipment design takes the time out of his holiday, and his 700+ unit drop, to politely answer multiple questions from someone who has expressed no serious interest in the product, and you're not prepared to reciprocate?
TheNest
687
Aug 27, 2017
After all that, your asking him if he's serious.
BrainFlush
6860
Aug 27, 2017
NotABotYep. I said the same. But was ignored. Oh well. It's all on Alex. Not me. Honestly I hope this conversation stops.
BrainFlush
6860
Aug 27, 2017
TheNestBut is he? /s
heysplangy
344
Aug 28, 2017
audibleSsam-Pord has been desperately scouring the internet for some more documents to download to try to appear like he knows what he's talking about.
Tanthanis
69
Aug 28, 2017
You better show your PhD in physics or chemistry, or hell anything really, if you want to keep this conversation going.
Your last sentence is ironic as Alex is the qualified mathematician that you have been talking to for days. Which you refuse to take his explanations because someone, somewhere said something that you may think contradicts him.
Tanthanis
69
Aug 28, 2017
I'm sure the math your computer gave you is correct. I'm not sure all mathematicians will recognize the function that you used in your project without some background.
Show me your PhD and then I'll spend the time going over your math.
atomicbob
13
Aug 28, 2017
AlexCavalliMade the drop on the first few minutes of availability. Looking forward to evaluating both listening and in my measurement lab. If the MCTH provides a significant fraction of the Liquid Crimson performance it will be a wonderful success. Liquid Crimson is one of the few headphone amps that maintains inaudible residual noise, hum, hiss etc. at maximum gain as heard in rooms with lower than NC-15. Very useful for certain audio forensics tasks, a delight for recreational listening.
Wooster
66
Sep 6, 2017
atomicbobWish I had a measurement lab...
Jmunandar
173
Dec 22, 2017
CEE_TEEAny updates on the production of these??
CEE_TEE
3480
Dec 23, 2017
JmunandarShould be some updates very soon! Did we get any pics up of production? Not yet! Let me see...
Jmunandar
173
Dec 23, 2017
CEE_TEECool awesome. Time flew by so fast. Can't wait to receieve them!
jerg
3
Dec 24, 2017
CEE_TEELooking forward to it!
sageamagoo
1
Dec 29, 2017
CEE_TEEI'd also love to see pictures! Only two months left...
deathson
33
Jan 27, 2018
CEE_TEEAny news for CTH?
majesticles
6
Jan 31, 2018
CEE_TEEHey, any update? I imagine people are going to keep asking until you tell us something or really anything at all...
CEE_TEE
3480
Jan 31, 2018
majesticlesHello! Still on the boat, still on track for 2/27 ship date! :)
Dilli
11
Feb 1, 2018
CEE_TEEYeah. End of this month the shipping would commence hopefully.
10fold
248
Feb 8, 2018
DilliYAHOO!!!!!! :)
Dilli
11
Feb 16, 2018
DilliReceived mail from massdrop that they have started receiving the amps at their warehouse and shipment is as per schedule that is 27th Feb of this month. Good news for all of us.
10fold
248
Feb 18, 2018
CEE_TEEOn the day of the drop, I set several alarms in order to wake up before the drop. I had a couple browser windows open, continually refreshing them in anticipation. Trying for the lowest possible serial number I can get. I am very excited about this.
Motorrad
2898
Feb 18, 2018
10foldDo the lower serial numbers sound better?
10fold
248
Feb 18, 2018
MotorradThe first 500 purchasers are guaranteed a serial number under 550.
Motorrad
2898
Feb 18, 2018
10foldWhy is that important?
NotABot
424
Feb 19, 2018
MotorradIt's not important to me in the slightest, but if other people want to obsess over it, it's no skin off my back.
At least this isn't someone asking for the millionth time why don't Massdrop ship to country X.
Motorrad
2898
Feb 19, 2018
NotABotThe shipping query actually makes sense...
10fold
248
Feb 19, 2018
MotorradImagine getting the very first one. To me that would be cool.
Motorrad
2898
Feb 19, 2018
10foldJust imagine...
RockyMountains
478
Feb 20, 2018
MotorradThe shipping query is dumb, because a quick scan of any of the discussions gives the answer in under 30 seconds.
Caring about serial number thing is weird (imo lower serial numbers just means higher chance of a QC issue!) but at least it's not asked as frequently.
RockyMountains
478
Feb 20, 2018
10foldThe point about getting serial #1 is just wishful thinking. From the reading of it, the first 50 go to reviewers or testers. Whether someone gets #51 or #10001, there's no rarity value. It's called Massdrop because it's for the mass market. This isn't BoutiqueLimitedExclusiveDrop. If you want exclusive, go hunt down a (non Carbon) Cavalli amp.
#10001 would be cooler though, it's a palindrome number.
Motorrad
2898
Feb 20, 2018
RockyMountainsThough you seem to have a gift for pointing out the obvious, you're missing the point.
RockyMountains
478
Feb 21, 2018
MotorradGot the point, just thought that you were just belaboring it.
Dilli
11
Feb 21, 2018
RockyMountainsThats speculation I presume about serial numbers point you made.
RockyMountains
478
Feb 22, 2018
DilliWhich point?
The one about reliability- that was mostly facetious. The one about a bunch of early products going to reviewers- well, pre-launch review products have turned up on the forums, and most drops specify a buffer of 50 serial numbers for the first X buyers (some do specify that serial #1 will be released). The one about fantasizing about serial numbers on discounted to consumer, mass market goods being misguidied- that one is a matter of opinion.
10fold
248
Feb 22, 2018
RockyMountains"Note: This drop is limited to 1,000 units. The first 500 purchasers are guaranteed a serial number under 550."
That note could be a clear indication serial numbers matter to some. For me, it's simply the lower the number the cooler it is. On an already amazing build, I think it's pretty neat. No more no less.
RockyMountains
478
Feb 22, 2018
10foldPersonally, if the idea of exclusivity (which is what a low serial number is) appeals, I'd recommend something like custom clothing or furniture. The additional utility is tangible rather than abstract.
10fold
248
Feb 23, 2018
RockyMountainsInteresting opinion albeit absurd and pompous
RockyMountains
478
Feb 23, 2018
10foldThat's the goal ;)
If you're going to be a snob, be a snob over something properly exclusive!
Though even then, a bespoke suit or custom furniture is a pretty low bar.
audible
602
Feb 23, 2018
RockyMountains"The shipping query is dumb, because a quick scan of any of the discussions gives the answer in under 30 seconds."
nah. nothing wrong with being confused about the seemingly random MD shipping policies. Dorking out over freaking serial numbers is just plain stupid.
Dilli
11
Feb 25, 2018
audibleI agree . Serial numbers below 500 is a gimmick to attract buyers to purchase for popularity. It hardly matters what serial number you get after all the hardware is the same for all. I dont think it has any extras in it.
Dilli
11
Mar 3, 2018
DilliFinally my order is shipped. Thanks Massdrop for sticking to your timeline.
10foldBwhaha, I ended up with a serial number under 50. Maybe I should resell it and make teh profits :)
Admittedly I only discovered this because I was wondering if Massdrop even bothered to put a serial number somewhere on the case.
Case is nicer than I expected- the walls are nice and thick, the volume knob is pleasantly smooth. The front button is the only bit that really feels cheap (light and hollow actuation, but at least it doesn't wobble).
10fold
248
Mar 5, 2018
RockyMountainsI hope you enjoy the amp. It sure does look sharp. Pretty awesome amp.
Dilli
11
Mar 26, 2018
10foldI am really enjoying my CTH with the LCD2C as well as my Hd800. I never bothered to check the serial no. Perhaps, i would just for curiosity.
OG47
16
May 7, 2018
CEE_TEEHi Cee Tee,
Can't seem to find much info on the circuity in the amp. Any possibility of a Massdrop schematic or a current link to some more information on the original Compact tube hybrid ? This amp sounds so good that I'm thinking it might be worth modding to get the last bit of performance out of it.
jwags818
8
Jun 14, 2018
OG47The original cth is on his website under diy
bfitz
667
Mar 3, 2019
CEE_TEEQuick, possibly stupid, question. Why are there 2 versions of this amp all over the internet? One sunken tube, and one full tube?
search

search
Some people just using some sort of adapter/socket saver?
CEE_TEE
3480
Mar 4, 2019
bfitzHey bfitz, Yes that bottom image looks like it has a socket saver installed. The image on our sites is correct.
bfitz
667
Mar 5, 2019
CEE_TEEAother quick question since I've got you on the line. Amp came today, and sounds great, really well packaged and presented 👍. Not a single problem, however, this being my first bit of tube kit, I am just wondering if tubes naturally sit loose in the socket. Tube slipped right into socket no problem, it does not wobble or move at all, but minimal to no effort is needed to remove it. Normal?
CEE_TEE
3480
Mar 11, 2019
bfitzThat sounds good and normal- like no pins were bent and the tube was inserted well. :)
pshanks01
63
Jun 1, 2019
CEE_TEEI have to take issue with that response to bfitz. I have some experience with tube gear (current preamp and monoblocks are 100% valves), and for every socket there is always some resistance to inserting and removing tubes. This is not necessarily symptomatic of bent pins or dirty socket connections. While microphonics is not really a concern in a headphone context, I would still wonder if the connections are sound and stable.
(Edited)
bfitz
667
Jun 1, 2019
pshanks01I have recently acquired a Matsushita pcc88 tube from UA that I am now using in place of the EH tube. This tube requires a bit of "help" seating properly. So maybe a difference in pin gauge? Otherwise still no complaints here 👍.
pshanks01
63
Jun 1, 2019
bfitzGood, that would give me more confidence.
bfitz
667
Jun 2, 2019
pshanks01I have never had any issues using the EH tube, it was just very easily seated and removed. The Matsushita, however required some effort on my part to get seated. I suspect that if I tried to lift the amp by the tube, the EH would just pull right out of the socket and the M would allow me to lift the amp off the stand it's on before it loosed from the socket. Something I am not willing to put to practice. I am glad for your reply though and will post pics of both tubes side by side for a visual comparison of their pins. If it does make any difference, the M is a Platinum grade, cryo treated tube. Not sure if that would be something to consider, in terms of how securely the tube is seated.
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