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JonasHeineman
5987
Oct 12, 2018
For anyone who was interested in the lab test results, we finally have them back - thanks for your patience.
As you can see from the results below, based on the percentages of each element present, the steel is confirmed to be BD1N.
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We shared this report with Carpenter because we noticed the presence of trace elements (Copper and Nickel) that we didn't expect to see based on their spec sheet for BD1N (https://www.cartech.com/en/product-solutions/cartech-cts-bd1n-alloy/). Here is the response we got:
1. The nickel and Coper listed in your report based on their levels are clearly trace elements. 2. Trace elements like these are present in almost every batch of steel, and because of their levels, do not affect the steel in any way. Because of this, they are not listed. Since all of your knives came from the same batch, they will all show this. However if you get knives in the future from a different batch, they may or may not appear. 3. They can be caused by any number of things. There is simply no consistent way to keep them out. However, Carpenter does not ad [sic] them in intentionally, and follows their recipe to the best of their ability.
I hope that puts everyone's mind at ease about the type of steel used. Thanks for asking, glad we could confirm this for the community.
CC: @anteck7 @harveyfnj @ajorcajada @HttpCasey @faldor20
anteck7
71
Oct 12, 2018
JonasHeinemanThanks a bunch, did you get Rockwell numbers?
harveyfnj
83
Oct 12, 2018
JonasHeinemanWhat is the Rockwell hardness of the steel?
Naftoor
291
Oct 16, 2018
JonasHeinemanGlad to see it Jonas! Puts my mind at ease about the nitrogen for sure. Did Element test the HRC in the process?
JonasHeineman
5987
Oct 17, 2018
JonasHeinemanHey guys, we just got the Rockwell C results back today. We had gotten a preliminary number of 58 HRc from the lab first lab (the one that couldn't test for nitrogen) but because they only provided a single readout without any decimals, and because we were not sure about the method (testing MUST be done at exactly a 90-degree angle, which means you have to set it up on blocks), we got a second opinion from a lab that actually cross-sections the blade and sets the pieces in acrylic to do the testing. That testing (posted below) confirmed the results of the first lab - average hardness of about 58 HRc.
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We'll update our estimates on the page to reflect the findings, now that we have measurements instead of estimates. Two things to bear in mind here, especially for some folks who may not have been following this whole thread:
1) Rockwell hardness is very rarely measured after grinding - the numbers that you see listed on almost every product page for any brand are based on the measurements after heat treatment and before grinding...or sometimes people just post what the steel company says it will be if their heat treatment instructions are followed. We are happy to provide this information for post-grinding because members asked for it, but we want you to be aware of the larger context for these numbers relative to what's common practice in the cutlery industry.
Here's a graph (and link to the video that it came from) that Ryky Tran (aka Burrfection on YouTube) made testing BD1N knives that are also heat treated to 63 HRc compared to some other top brands. I'm not sure if we can get Ryky to test this one, but I could reach out and ask. https://youtu.be/tWTHCa3w_k4
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2) YMMV. As with all knives, hardness alone does not define edge retention - chemical composition, edge angle, heat treatment, and tempering are among the other key factors that affect how long a knife stays sharp - so let us know how your knives are holding up in the real world - ultimately, the real test is whether these knives are performing well over time and helping you to enjoy the time you spend in the kitchen.
Thanks for asking these questions, we've learned a lot and I hope you have too.


CC: @anteck7 @harveyfnj @Naftoor
Naftoor
291
Oct 17, 2018
JonasHeinemanBig data dump! Always awesome to see! Thanks as always Jonas!
Those numbers are a lot lower then I would hope, and clearly lower then what was expected by the design team based on the quoted figures on the sale page. I know that in theory it's quite doable to produce knives that don't suffer much, if at all of a HRC drop due to the grinding process by using low speeds, frequent or continuous cooling or by finishing the edge with manual methods to remove the heat damaged steel. Obviously this all gets much harder with mass production, but it can definitely be done, at least to an extent.
To me this speaks of a pretty major moral issue, this knife was sold on the premise that it would bridge the gap between eastern and western knives. Amongst the features was a steel that was to be significantly harder then what users were traditionally used to, and as a result have greater edge retention. What this data shows us is that the hardness is on par with what is reported for modern Wusthofs, at 58 HRC. Now what you say may be true regarding the taking of HRC readings before grinding; however given how industrialized Wusthof is I'm willing to bet they have at some point, and possibly even fairly frequently take HRC readings of finished knives for quality control purposes. I'm willing to reach out to them to inquire, although without any contacts I'm sure I could be flat out ignored. That being said I'm certain that the HRC values for Wusthofs are very close, if not actually at 58 HRC. The very knife the Vital was supposed to be different from, is efffectively an equal. I'm not entirely surprised, I've heard good things of BD1N as a knife steel given it's limited history. So with how terrible the performance has been of my Vital I'm not surprised the grinding process is causing issues. It also aligns with what many of the negative or luke-warm reviews are stating of the steel not retaining an edge well.
I don't have HT/tempering charts for BD1N, but I'm sure Carpenter is more then happy to provide it on request, given that informing consumers how to get the most out of their product is part of their job. Attached is an image of the temper chart for N690. Before anyone says anything, yes different steels have different heat treat properties and requirements, so this isn't neccesarily an example. I uploaded it as a demonstration, and that is look at what it takes to get a drop of 5 HRC in a steel. You'd have to overheat it likely on the order of a few hundred degrees to get that kind of drop, but without the associated chart for BD1N it's impossible to say exactly how high you'd have to overheat it. However, something to keep in mind is that this overheating is ON TOP of the initial tempering temperature, which is often several hundred degrees in it's own right. Now, knife edges heat up quickly. Very, very, very quickly. A thin section of metal with 750+ RPM of grinding going on can overheat the edge, or worse the tip of a knife in a few seconds, 10 would be incredibly optimistic, if you aren't cooling it properly. This is particularly an issue with high speed grinders most manufacturers would use. Still, to get the blade to what is likely the 400-500 degrees required to drop the HRC by such a degree means there is a flaw in the system being used, and the product has essentially been ruined by it.
I would personally love to see Burrfection give the Vital a cut test. In fact, if MD sets it up, I would be happy to send my own Vital as I know it seems to have issues, he would of course be free to resharpen it however he pleases and deems best and use it any fashion he deems appropriate. My only request would be to have it returned afterwards, because even a knife with garbage edge retention and chippiness is still a knife and my kitchen never has enough of them. In particular, I would love to see how the edge retention stacks up against a Wusthof, my gut feeling is that the Vital will be similiar.
Edited 10/17/2018 @ 1654 due to my misreading the HRCs, it is not in fact a 4 HRC drop, it is a 5 HRC drop which is even worse.
Editing 10/17/2018 @ 1715
Found the tempering tables and cryo quench effects on end hardness. Don't have the TTT for it yet, but this honestly raises some questions. First off, how did ya'll pull off a 63 HRC following HT, as stated??? Carter themselves state that pretty much any heat treat and even cryo treatment will drop you to 62 HRC, MAX. Unless ya'll are not running any form of tempering and are taking the reading directly out of the quench, which is smarmy as hell, then the stated figures appear to literally be impossible. Everywhere I'm looking people are quoting the 63 HRC figure for HRC, and yet the data seems to be saying nope, I would kill to have that TTT diagram to double check if anyone has it or can get it. What this does show is how ludicrously broken your grinding system must be. For any of these austenitizing temperatures recommended even a 500 degree delta between the lower and upper bounds won't bump you 5 HRC. My only theory at this point is that ya'll aren't running a temper before taking the HRC, and then grinding without sufficient coolant which would probably knock you down to the 58 HRC right quick, acting as a really crude temper and explain why the knives seem to be so chippy at the factory angles. I'm baffled to be honest, so I'd love to learn more!
Editing 10/17/2018 @ 1744
So I was thinking about this, and my theory almost makes sense. If they skipped the tempering step and simply ground it poorly, then the result would be an edge far too soft and the core brittle, which would explain why multiple users are reporting their blades literally cracking on using them on root veg. Obviously this theory is torpedoed due to the data report showing that even the core is soft, so a tempering step must have taken place...
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harveyfnj
83
Oct 18, 2018
JonasHeinemanAs you know, I purchased 4 of these knives, 3 as gifts and one to keep. The final HRC confirms what I have been complaining about since day 1: this knife does not perform like a 63 Rockwell should. Now we know why. The difference between a HRC58 and a HRC63 is like the difference between a basic 4 cylinder engine and a 6 cylinder turbo; they are worlds apart. You told us we were getting 63, but you delivered 58.
I have been embarrassed that what I sent my friends has not lived up to the hype (both mine and yours), and I need to remedy that. I suggest one of two options for massdrop: give me a significant reimbursement on all four, and I will use that to then buy them three real kitchen knives that they and I can be proud of; or 2, I will ask the three to be returned to me, and I will send all 4 back to you for a complete and total refund. I don't want to hear anything about time limitations, as it has taken you several months to get the information requested months ago, when it was clear that the knife you delivered was not anything like the one you promised and that I ordered. Please get back to me soon on how you would like to proceed, as I would like to have this resolved as quickly as possible.
drumholic
3
Oct 18, 2018
JonasHeinemanDear Mr Heineman
Thank you for plainly sharing the data though it takes time.
I think it's not fair. The Vital should be compared with the final products of other brands because probably the mechanical property of other material would be changed also after processing.
I have both the Vital and the Nexus. The cutting test of Nexus knife is pretty impressive. Truly, I'd like to see the Vital cutting test also if Mr Ryky Tran's wrist is OK. The Nexus is made in China. I'm not sure the Vital is produced in the same company with it. I think that it's worth to try to compare the Vital with other brands and materials, such as the Nexus, Shun, and Yaxell dragon. If those knives show lower HRC, we could say that all other brands have same issue.
And, as I know, standard HRC test uses bulk material not thinner product like knife. So, it will be another factor. Anyone knows about standard HRC test?
Yes, I still disappointed the HRC result but in my opinion we have to get the data from other brands also. And next, we could talk about it. However, my idea is just a suggestion because I'll not pay for the tests ;)
PS. I wondered why other big brands don't use BD1N. I thought that they are conservative, or new product needs more investment. Maybe they know about the lowered HRC problem of BD1N after processing if the test result is true.
JonasHeineman
5987
Oct 18, 2018
harveyfnj@harveyfnj As previously stated, you are welcome to return any number of the knives for a refund.
harveyfnj
83
Oct 18, 2018
JonasHeinemanThank you. I will check with my "giftees" and see what they want to do.
Naftoor
291
Oct 22, 2018
JonasHeinemanJonas, does this apply to other buyers as well?
harveyfnj
83
Oct 23, 2018
JonasHeinemanI will be returning the four knives I purchased. They are on their way back to me now. Please advise process and procedure for an expedited return and complete and full refund.
JonasHeineman
5987
Oct 24, 2018
NaftoorOur warranty covers any manufacturer defect for all members.
JonasHeineman
5987
Oct 24, 2018
harveyfnjClick the "Contact Support" button under the transaction for this purchase here - https://www.massdrop.com/transactions
Naftoor
291
Oct 24, 2018
JonasHeinemanThanks as always Jonas, I'm sure dealing with a group of customers who aren't pleased with their purchases is frustrating, but I appreciate your patience in answering our questions over the last few months.
JonasHeineman
5987
Oct 25, 2018
NaftoorNo problem, I appreciate the time and effort that went into your lengthy post about the steel chemistry!
anteck7
71
Oct 31, 2018
JonasHeinemanI'm going to purchase the Nexus knife and get it rockwell tested. It will be interesting to see if they also experience the significant fall in rockwell hardness vs advertised. Coming from the pocket knife world, advertised hardness generally is given at a range I.E. 58-60 rockwell. Every knife as tested usually falls inside that listed range, not a significant 5 point drop below it. I still don't see how final grinding is going to result in a drop from 63 Rockwell to 58, unless its part of the tempering process not grinding. Nor do I understand why it would be industry practice to advertise a number that they are not actually delivering to the customer.
anteck7
71
Nov 1, 2018
NaftoorAll, I called around and was able to find a local heat treat place that was willing to test the knives. All in all I had the following knives tested. All knives where tested about 1cm from the spine and at least 1/2 inch from the handle. All knives were tested 2/3 times in order to ensure consistent results. The tester they used is Analog, and I wasn't there to get pictures. Hardness values they provided were a range as in many cases it fell between two numbers. 51-52 Rockwell C, Henkles International 8 Inch Chef Knife Forged (about 10 years old) 54-55 Rockwell C, Spyderco VG-10 Delica Made in Japan (Note this is a heavy user I bought used) 56-57 Rockwell C, Massdrop x Apogee 8-Inch Chef's Knife 56-57 Nexus BD1N Stainless Steel 8 Inch Knife. These are a little lower than the lab numbers massdrop obtained, but I didn't have my knives cut into sections and mounted in acrylic. All were tested by the same guy in a short time frame. The Nexus and Massdrop knives should have similar edge retention. @harveyfnj @ajorcajada @HttpCasey @faldor20 @JonasHeineman
drumholic
3
Nov 2, 2018
anteck7Hi anteck7 Wow! Impressive! Thank you for your test. If the result is true, it seems that all knives have the HRC lower issue. Or, as I mentioned, the test condition of material (thinner material not bulk material) could affect the HRC data. Also, test data would vary depending on a test equipment. I think that we just consider the cutting test. I'm glad that the Nexus and The Vital show same result.
anteck7
71
Nov 14, 2018
anteck7@JonasHeineman Would it be possible for you to have one of the Japanese made Apogee Knives rockwell tested? It would be interesting to see if there are differences in the heat treat between Chinese made (Nexus and Massdrop) and Japanese made. @Deaomega1214 indicated that the heat treat protocol is different between the factories. @harveyfnj @ajorcajada @HttpCasey @faldor20 @JonasHeineman @drumholic @Deaomega1214
TayTayBalls
125
Jan 21, 2019
JonasHeinemanLol. These numbers mean absolutely nothing. This knife is a joke. Do u guys even read these comments??? It’s painful and a little funny how bad MD is
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