Drop + Dan Durston X-Mid 1P Tent Discussions | Drop

Dec 20, 2018

StringBenderThe 2P X-Mid is coming along well. All the major dimensions are dialed in and it's pitching really well. I'm testing the second round prototype now and it's looking really good:

So there are just some details to refine (e.g. pockets, vents). I'm really happy with how it's turning out. The living space is quite comfortable yet the weight is impressive. It's a StratoSpire2 sized tent but much lighter. I hope to be in a position to do a pre-sale in a few months. We are also hoping to offer it with a solid inner option:

For DCF, the wheels are starting to churn on that. I'm really excited about it. It's going to be ninja level / black belt / nerd-to-the-max ultralight :). I'm pretty confident that we can bring it in at a weight that makes it the lightest tent in the world while still retaining the core X-Mid attributes of being simple, solid and spacious because the X-Mid geometry is fundamentally more weight efficient than any other shape (more details on that here). But any DCF X-Mid is unavoidably a long way off because the process takes time contributing to this is that the DCF version will not simply be a lighter/expensive version of the regular X-Mid. With DCF you're making a compromise to use less durable materials to go superlight, therefore the whole tent has been redesigned with that mindset to achieve a coherent product. So the silpoly X-Mids are the well rounded ones that are the best choice for most folks. They are durable, beefy, fully featured, versatile tents so they are great as your primary tent. Then the DCF ones are much more of a niche tool with less durable materials and hardware (e.g. #3 zips vs #5) and a less well rounded design (e.g. singlewall, single vent etc). They'll be awesome in the right hands and in the right conditions, but not a tent you'd toss in your pack for every trip.

(Edited)

Dec 20, 2018

StringBender

Dec 20, 2018

dandurstonWaiting with baited breath!!

Dec 20, 2018

AngeTardivel

Dec 20, 2018

dandurstonVery exciting news! Congratulations on the progress with the new tents

Dec 20, 2018

treal512

435

Dec 20, 2018

dandurstonHot damn!

Dec 20, 2018

LamontCranston

Dec 21, 2018

dandurstonI think you mean 'every' trip.

Dec 21, 2018

Dec 21, 2018

LamontCranstonHa ha...yeah whoops. Corrected.

Dec 21, 2018

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Wulfsong

Dec 21, 2018

dandurstonSolid inner for the 1p?

Dec 21, 2018

Dec 21, 2018

WulfsongNot anytime soon but maybe one day. It's too late to incorporate this for the current production run of the 1P. If we do a second run in the future then I'd like to have that option, but any second run is a long ways off because we wouldn't start it until folks have had a chance to use the first tents. If we do have a solid inner for the second run, I hope we could offer just the inner alone so any original buyers could add that.

Dec 21, 2018

Jmac603

Dec 21, 2018

dandurstonSweet

Dec 21, 2018

f4ucorsair

Dec 21, 2018

dandurstonVery interesting. I am planning to get a Stratospire 2 by this summer but I'm keeping a close watch on any and all mentions of your 2P. Since I'm not a through-hiker I don't get the obsession/worry about a tent being difficult to set up, so that's not a big deal to me. The main disadvantage for me for the Tarptent is I have some concerns about the size of the footprint with finding a suitable site, like for rocky alpine sites with rock wind walls around them. Maybe I could fiddle it to fit though--hard to tell without owning it. But your 2P is attractive if it's much lighter. When you say Stratospire 2 dimensions I'm assuming you mean in the smallest Stratospire shape? One appealing bonus aspect of the Stratospire is you can fit 3 people in a pinch in the wide mode, which for those who pack light but own very few tents is a fascinating interesting compromise.

Dec 21, 2018

Dec 22, 2018

f4ucorsairThe Stratospire2 sorta fits three but I don't think it's wise to use it like that. The floor is 52" wide and then it has 5" tall bathtub walls for a theoretical floor width of the 62" if you loosen the inner so much that that sides fully become part of the floor. If you actually did lower the inner by 5" to do that, you'd have no bathtub floor to stop flowing water and you'd also have poor headroom because the roof would be 5" lower. But you can't actually lower the inner that much because there's only about 2-3" of adjustability at the peaks. So it's physically not possible to get the floor to 62" unless you modified the attachments. The widest you can get the SS2 floor is about 56". Thus if you try to put 3 pads in there you will end up sleeping on top of the side walls. Notice how in TarpTent's own photo (below) the pad at the back is actually curved up the side wall:

Also notice that the closest pad is on top of the middle pad by a couple inches, and the other pads also overlap a bit. So you cram three folks in, but the tent doesn't actually go to 60+ inches wide - as it's shown here it's not much over 52". Notice that there are still 3-4" tall sidewalls and since the material is 62" wide, that gives a floor in the 52-54" range. I think the point they are trying to make is that the width is generous - and indeed it is - but cramming in three folks doesn't work that well so I don't think TT is wise to suggest this. Better to stick to what is indisputably true and say it's generous for two people. Regardless, you can do the same thing in the X-Mid 2P. The floor is 1-2" narrower (50 - 51" vs 52") but it also has more adjustability at the peaks so you can actually lower the inner more, so you can get the floor similarly wide if you wanted to. Both tents max out in the low-mid 50's in real floor width even though the fabric is 60 - 62" wide. I don't recommend it, but you could. Similarly, you can fit 2 people in Mountain Hardware's Ghost UL2 tent that is only 35" wide at one end, but it's not a great idea because you'll be overlapping and squished. As for pitch simplicity, I think this matters more for occasional hikers because if you only dust off the SS2 a few times a year then you're going to be rusty at pitching it and probably end up a bit bewildered. I guess the flip side is that maybe you're not in a hurry and an extra 15 minutes is no big deal. Fair enough as long as it's not pouring rain. I probably had to pitch the SS2 about 30 times before I really understood all the variables at play and could get a perfect pitch every time. Before that I'd get good pitches and bad ones and not really know why. Anyways, if nothing else the simpler X-Mid pitch (4 stakes vs 6-8) means hunting out fewer rocks to anchor the tent when you're camped in rocky sites without dirt. As for dimensions, the X-Mid 2P will be roughly similar to the dimensions of the StratoSpire 2, so the size of the footprint will be about the same. The area inside the SS2 fly is 63 square feet, whereas the X-Mid 2P is 64 square feet. The floor area of the SS2 is 31 square feet, whereas the X-Mid 2P is 33 square feet. So the SS2 does have a large-ish footprint and the X-Mid 2P will as well. That's an unavoidable trade-off with having a comfortable amount of floor area. Neither of these are tiny 2P tents like the lightest mainstream 2P tents. If you really do frequently camp in rocky areas where stakes are not viable and the rock wall protected spots are tiny, then you may be better off with a tiny freestanding tent like the MH Ghost UL2. I do a lot of alpine camping but I can still almost always find dirt but if you camp in areas where it's just rock then a freestanding tent may be the right call. As for weight, the X-Mid 2P will be a lot lighter. I don't know exactly how much yet, but at least half a pound. The X-Mid geometry saves a lot of weight because it doesn't need struts, lighter fabric and has fewer seams. So basically the X-Mid 2P will be a similar size but much lighter, more fully featured (e.g. vents that prop open and close shut), simpler pitch and use higher end hardware (e.g. water resistant zips).

(Edited)

Dec 22, 2018

f4ucorsair

Dec 22, 2018

dandurstonThat's a well-detailed, well-toned, and convincing reply. Very convincing. I had written down yours was 48" wide, I think from a comment you wrote before you had any prototypes. If it's 50-51"... if they are the same size--you really do make me wonder what the advantage is of a Stratospire 2 other than being more battle-tested. Most tent floors are so thin you basically need a groundsheet, and once you factor that in they approach the weight of the Stratospire 2 but with much less space. With a more durable floor, yours seems to be the exception. Also hadn't realized how much TT seems to have stretched their specs. I do like the ability to stretch wider since I have 3 preschoolers, and I can imagine using this tent both for myself solo and for my trips with the kids until they get larger. I also don't typically backpack in the rain, so the bathtub floor scenario doesn't sound awful. I only expect to camp on rocks rarely--just about the only place will probably be Sahale Glacier Camp and very rare others. I mostly need it to be possible. Is it possible to sacrifice wind-resistance by adjusting the vestibules in closer if you need to pitch in a tight space? Also, why don't you recommend setting your floor width to mid-50's? I'm just budgeting for one tent for a variety of 1 and 2 adult scenarios as well as 1 adult + 1-2 kid scenarios (I have 3 preschoolers). I understand a tent can't do all things--but yours is the closest I've seen so far that would allow me to have a lightweight tent for a variety of purposes. Sounds like your tent is the ideal 1-2p combo. If it's as good as it seems on paper, it's likely I'll eventually want 2 as the kids get bigger

Dec 22, 2018

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Dec 22, 2018

f4ucorsairTo be clear, I don't think TT is intentionally doing anything misleading with their specs. I just think whoever does them is more casual about it than a number geek like myself would be. For example, for the longest time TT listed the "max interior height" of the SS2 at 50". I thought this meant the inner was 50" tall. But later I noticed that the instructions also say to set your trekking poles to 50", so how could the inner be 50" high if the fly is only 50" high? Obviously the inner should be less. I pointed it out to TT but rather than change the interior height spec to what it is (~46") they just added the words "under fly". So now it says the "max interior height (under fly) = 50 inches". Okay but why not just say it's the fly height then. As is, it's worded funny so everyone still thinks this spec is the inner height (e.g. when you see TT's specs repeated around the internet everyone still thinks the inner is 50" tall. ) It also doesn't help that TT's own diagrams show the wrong dimensions. In the image below is clearly shows the height of the inner peaks at 50" with the fly taller still, yet actually the fly height is 50". The poles are shown as taller than 50" when they are not. The drawing is properly scaled, but annotations showing the height are wrong. Either change the 50" to 46", or show that 50" is the fly height.

There are numerous such discrepancies in the specs on TT's website. As another example, the SS Li specs list the "interior height" as 45" but then when you view the diagram it shows it as 44". Minor, but it shows these specs aren't intended to be rigorous. Anyways, I'm not saying they are being deceitful or anything - just that whomever does the specs takes it fairly casually and you shouldn't take the numbers to be exact. I suspect with the 62" floor, someone just thought "hey a 52 inch floor plus two 5 inch sides is 62 inches" without realizing it wasn't actually possible to pitch it like that. "I had written down yours was 48" wide" The X-Mid 2P was going to be 46-48" (the first prototype was like this) but a lot of folks really expressed they wanted 50" so it would work for two wide pads. Now it is spec'd at 52" which really gives a 50" floor because things always work out a little smaller than spec. "Why don't you recommend setting your floor width to mid-50's?" Mostly I meant that I don't recommend squeezing in three folks. Doing so might put some unusual stresses on the tent if you end up on top of the side walls. Like this, there would be a lot of weight pulling down on the inner. Imagine if the mesh door was closed and then you rolled over and basically put your weight onto the wall. That's an awful lot of weight on the mesh that isn't that strong. With any tent, I wouldn't be surprised if you could rip or damage the mesh. In a TarpTent, you've got those mitten clips that clip the inner up to the fly peaks. They aren't that strong so if your weight was loaded into the walls you could likely snap a mitten clip. The X-Mid uses stronger buckles at the peaks, but I still wouldn't want 100 lbs hanging off them and eventually somethings gotta give. But if you just had two adults and 1 kid and the kid was on a smaller pad (e.g. a foam pad trimmed in a bit) then it could work. As for setting the width wider, you can do this but the inner doesn't pitch quite as nice if you loosen it off because you aren't simply lowering it, you are loosening it in all directions so everything is more slack. It looks sloppy in any tent when you do this. The purpose of having adjustability at the peaks is so you can have proper tension on the inner. Imagine if the ground was domed upward where the floor is. In this case the inner mesh would be slack because the floor is raised up. Thus you would tighten it at the peaks to pull it taut. Or vice versa - if the ground was dipped under the floor then it would potentially be too tight and straining the inner, so you would loosen off the peaks. The ground doesn't often vary like this, so actually what is more relevant is the height that you pitch the fly. This can vary. If you want more ventilation you can pitch the fly with longer cord at the corners (this cord is adjustable) so it pitches a couple inches higher, or vice versa. But if you pitch the fly higher you don't want to lift the floor off the ground, so you loosen it. So the point of this adjustability is to get the ideal tension on the inner, not so you can overly loosen it to get a wider floor. Doing so also sags the ends in a bit (on any tent like this) and the inner ridgeline dips down lower because it's loose, so it's just not a perfect pitch anymore. It works but it's a bit painful for OCD types like me to look at. "Is it possible to sacrifice wind-resistance by adjusting the vestibules in closer if you need to pitch in a tight space? " Interesting question. I hadn't thought about this. Yes you could. What you could do is omit the stakes at two of the corners and use the peak guylines instead. So you'd be staking out the four red dots below. This would get the roof panels taut and mostly pull out the floor, but it wouldn't be pulling out two corners of the floor. To do that, you'd add two more stakes where the blue dots are which would pull out the rest of the floor and also pull out half of the end walls. There are already stake out points here. Like this, you'd have a taut roof and floor, plus the end walls would be taut over the floor so you'd be fully covered. Not a pitch for weathering a hurricane, but totally workable normally. Then you could just leave the vestibules simply hanging limp or better, add stakes at the last two corners as far out as you can get them to get at least partly pull out the vestibules. This diagram is the 1P but the 2P is similar.

(Edited)

Dec 22, 2018

Chastro

Dec 22, 2018

dandurston @dandurston, you say "[the DCF version is] not a tent you'd toss in your pack for every trip", but will you really still use the silpoly version once you have access to both? (P.s. Congrats on the amazing designs. I joined the 1p drop early, and am now watching the 2p and DCF development with much curiosity.)

Dec 22, 2018

Dec 22, 2018

ChastroThanks for the support Chastro! The times I would use the silpoly version would be: 1) Sloppy wet/humid trips. I don't like single wall tents in wet humid environments where I'll likely have a lot of condensation. This is much of the PNW. I think the extra weight of a double wall is worth it to avoid accidentally touching the wet fly with my sleeping bag, head, etc. I always seem to wake up in the night to go pee and end up discovering the side of my sleeping bag is soaked. That's okay for a night or two, but if it's raining all week I want my tent to be a refuge from as much of that as possible. I wouldn't take the DCF to the Lost Coast of Alaska. You could, but it wouldn't be the ideal tool. 2) Winter Trips. In the winter the double wall silpoly lets me just take the fly for a stronger shelter that is almost as light, or it allows me to replace the mesh inner of the silpoly with a solid inner (when these are available). DCF sketches me out in the deep cold because it seems really brittle so I don't trust it in a storm. I suspect it loses a lot of its strength since most plastics do. I don't actually have evidence for this though. 3) Serious storms. I'd feel better riding out a serious storm in the silpoly version. All the guyouts are bomber/overbuilt so I'm not worried their going to rip out. If DCF fails it's almost never the material ripping, but rather stitching ripping out someplace because DCF doesn't hold stitching well. The DCF version is going to be well built and strong, but ultimately the guyouts would rip out easier on the DCF one. But yeah the DCF version will be appealing for a lot of the time. If someone has access to both then certainly the DCF would make the cut about 70% of the time for me. But for most folks it would be a harder question because if you don't own either, then do really want to spend 2x as much for a shelter that won't last as long, and won't be as well rounded. The cost + durability + specialization is a fair bit to give up even though the weight savings will be substantial.

Dec 22, 2018

Bramble

Dec 23, 2018

dandurstonExcited to hear a DCF version is on the drawing board! I have health problems that compel me, well, not quite to gram weenie, but definitely to ounce bouncer level. Question- if we get this version will we be able to swap upgrades in and out as they are developed? Would love to trade the sil-poly for DCF or trade a solid wall inner for the mesh depending on the trip I’m taking. Thanks!

Dec 23, 2018

Dec 23, 2018

BrambleI hope to do a solid inner in future production runs of the 1P, and yes I expect the solid inner would just clip right in. So you could likely buy one in another year. I can't guarantee it because it's possible that the design evolves enough that it's incompatible for some reason, but I think it is extremely likely that the solid inner would work no problem. The DCF version is a single wall (floor sewn right to fly) so that won't be compatible. Maybe in the future we'll be able to offer a DCF version of the double wall design and then it would probably be compatible to switch the fly, but that's a very long ways off.

Dec 23, 2018

Greg2

Dec 23, 2018

f4ucorsairThe one advantage of the SS2 for your situation is the Sidecar option. This would allow you to put 1 of the pre-schoolers in the vestibule in an enclosed mesh and floor. I think this option of the SS2 is very intriguing for a 1 tent solution until your kids want their own tent.

Dec 23, 2018

Jan 12, 2019

dandurstonHi Dan Very excited about seeing the 2p version of this. Any chance you could post some drawings?

Jan 12, 2019

Jan 12, 2019

JoomyIt's still a bit too early to post drawings because some measurements are subject to change and I'd rather save some stuff for a big unveiling a few months. Here's another picture of the 2P though to tide you over for a bit:

Jan 12, 2019

Jan 12, 2019

dandurstonLooks splendid, can't wait!

Jan 12, 2019

123zorn

Jan 14, 2019

dandurstonNice!

Jan 14, 2019

Jan 19, 2019

dandurstonFound some more detail on a super secret lightweight backpacking website ;) Looking good!

Jan 19, 2019

Jan 19, 2019

JoomyDid you find the website I'm working on? If so, you might be the first visitor to it. It's live but I haven't shared it anywhere because it's still a work in progress.

(Edited)

Jan 19, 2019

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Jan 19, 2019

dandurstonLol no, I was being facetious. I just mean I found the BPL thread.

Jan 19, 2019

Jan 19, 2019

JoomyWell there is a website out there that half exists, but not worth hunting for because it's all the same info as is already on here.

Jan 19, 2019

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bpchristensen

172

Jul 1, 2019

dandurstonBeen using my 1P a lot and my wife wants in on the fun for our trips together! Looking for the latest on the 2P version - is there another more recent thread? (I'm subscribed to your mailchimp mailing list, Dan but haven't seen any updates...)

Jul 1, 2019

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