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Luis
35
Nov 17, 2017
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Nov 17, 2017
Alberto_T
7
Nov 17, 2017
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LuisI am not a connoisseur of electronics but I find that the finish is handmade, at least compared to any Schiit product...
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Nov 17, 2017
Cokeman
1971
Nov 18, 2017
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Alberto_TIt is handmade. Nothing machine made would have wires ziptied like that. You can see where it is soldered by hand.
Nov 18, 2017
K.T.N
1264
Nov 18, 2017
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Alberto_TI've owned a lot of headphone amps, and while a super clean build is a good thing, it doesn't always translate into the best sounding amp.
So I wouldn't write off anything based simply on a picture of the build (unless it is clearly junk). The performance and sound are king, in my book.
Nov 18, 2017
Motorrad
2898
Nov 18, 2017
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Alberto_Twhat a profound and illuminating observation...
Nov 18, 2017
Rick_T
45
Nov 18, 2017
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LuisThanks for the photo. The construction looks okay. I hope the pcb holding the tube bases are robust enough.. After the warranty expires one could have the stock PSU lytics replaced with Panasonic ED’s for better long term reliability. The cathode lytic bypass caps with Elna Silmic II’s. And while you’re at it, the signal resistors with PRP and Kiwame carbon films at select positions. Just my personal preferences. Also the volume pot with at least an Alps Blue Velvet, which is par for the course. Then Mogami or equivalent low capacitance microphone cable if you also plan to replace the the input RCA and volume pot wiring. Interstage coupling caps are a matter of taste, just make sure the replacements would fit in the pcb.
Nov 18, 2017
Varholiaglimp
939
Nov 18, 2017
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LuisIt would be interesting to know whether that internal view is of the finished product or a prototype. If the idea (according to Massdrop) is to manufacture elsewhere, then will the Russian-manufactured amps in this drop be handmade, too?
The SBAF discussion after the photo is interesting as well. It goes into a lot of detail about the ZDT Jr.
No one buys Grados anymore, but it looks as though my hoary RS1s would pair as well with this as my HD650s.
Hey, Grado! Why not start a side business selling non-disintegrating earpads?
Nov 18, 2017
ProfessorPat
380
Nov 18, 2017
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Alberto_THere's a Schiit product that looks terrible...
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This mess of flux all over the place definitely doesn't speak well to a high quality finish. I can't speak to Schiit's quality across the board, and I've never opened up my personal Modi, but this Jotunheim looks like crap. If we're comparing the two based on a lone internal shot of an actual amp, the Laconic looks to have a lot more attention placed in the finish than Schiit.
Nov 18, 2017
Cokeman
1971
Nov 18, 2017
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ProfessorPatHey though, that's American made, and is damn proud of it.
Nov 18, 2017
ProfessorPat
380
Nov 18, 2017
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CokemanHeh. I have nothing against Schiit. As I said, I own some of their stuff. No complaints on my end. Just pointing out an example of an ugly one that's not a product shot on their site. I don't expect to own a Jotunheim, but more because I have things I'd rather try for the money than not liking Schiit or this particular picture.
Nov 18, 2017
Varholiaglimp
939
Nov 18, 2017
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Cokeman"Hey though, that's American made, and is damn proud of it."
You've just hit on another reason to buy the Jotunheim: It can experience human emotions like pride, which is an unusual feature for an amp.
Have you ever wondered why, if Schiit is a proudly American business, all of its products have Nordic names? You'd think that the founders were proudly Swedish, wouldn't you?
Nov 18, 2017
KJ741N
Nov 18, 2017
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VarholiaglimpIs Shit a proud company? Calling your company "Shit" is funny and cute.. for all of about 2 minutes. Then you realize it's a stupid marketing tactic meant to attract a certain very young male demographic. It says something about the mentality of the company's management that isn't complimentary. And yes, I have read and understand the history behind how they came to choose the name.
Nov 18, 2017
Motorrad
2898
Nov 19, 2017
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KJ741NHuh. Interesting perspective. I had not really considered what demographic they might be attracting...seeing as their fans and customers actually come from a variety of different demographics. It's just a name; don't get so hung up on it. Audio is supposed to be fun. Out of curiosity, what demographic do grumpy, stuck up whiners like you belong to?
Nov 19, 2017
ProfessorPat
380
Nov 19, 2017
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KJ741NSo it should be called something boring, like Mike or Jason’s name with the word audio tacked on? You don’t get to have fun when naming a company? And the certain immature demographic that is in it for the name and can also afford something like a Yggdrasil is huge, right?
Yes, Schiit is pronounced shit. Yes, their first product, the Asgard, can also be considered a joke in the same vein. Who the hell cares? Is Duke Cannon struggling to sell their stuff because of the tactical everything gimmick? No? Having something people remember your ads for is a sign you’re doing something right with your marketing. If your products can keep people coming back, you’re definitely doing something right.
Nov 19, 2017
Varholiaglimp
939
Nov 19, 2017
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KJ741NOdd that you should ask whether I think Schiit is a "proud company" after I spent an entire post making fun of that idea. I do like that company and its products, but it's still amusing when they use pride as a marketing tool (which is why they try to be tongue in Scheek about it).
Nov 19, 2017
Luis
35
Nov 19, 2017
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KJ741NSchiit is a company that has a good reputation based on merits, the names they use for their products and the country of origin are not important, if they are called Nero, Atila or Socrates I'm not interested. What I would like to read is comparatives or reviews, for example what would be the competition of Eddie Current ZDT Jr in Schiit by example the MJOLNIR 2 (849 USD) or VALHALLA 2 (349 USD) or Little Dot MKIII SE (450 USD), Woo Audio WA6 2nd Gen (629 USD) etc. The description of the article says that it rivals 1500 USD amplifiers, so I would expect it to surpass the aforementioned.
Nov 19, 2017
rastus
1391
Nov 19, 2017
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LuisWell... plenty of working room to upgrade the caps. The silicone pasted strain relief and frayed wire, bottom right, is inconsistent with good overall quality estimation, the unseen... If those “frayed” wires are grounds, one appears to go under a screw, still a thumbs down, poor workmanship.
Nov 19, 2017
Motorrad
2898
Nov 19, 2017
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rastusI don't know what's going on there. There are 3 or 4 wires with the same "fraying". I doubt that has anything to do with poor workmanship.
Nov 19, 2017
rastus
1391
Nov 19, 2017
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MotorradSorry to disagree, if my work ever looked like that, the laughs would never have stopped. Though at 1-10-30KV usually you never get to laughing,, poor workmanship... period.
Nov 19, 2017
audible
602
Nov 19, 2017
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Nov 19, 2017
Motorrad
2898
Nov 19, 2017
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rastusyeah yeah we get it: you're a superior craftsman with exceptional standards...aren't we all on the internet? Hasty modification of a Laconic NBM ... period. As usual, I'll save my "worksmanship" critique for a production model.
Nov 19, 2017
audible
602
Nov 19, 2017
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MotorradI think that's exactly what it is. Hasty proto. The nbm is a pretty tidy circuit (by Russian standards anyway).
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Nov 19, 2017
rastus
1391
Nov 19, 2017
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audibleHobby-town hot-glue still... this is production?
Nov 19, 2017
Motorrad
2898
Nov 19, 2017
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rastusHaha...yeah, why would anybody use thermal glue on power resistors in an inexpensive circuit? Phht.
Nov 19, 2017
rastus
1391
Nov 19, 2017
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MotorradYes - I can be critical, we are dropping money here for expected quality & performance, but I am the same person in real life as I am on the internet. This is an image of a HiPIMS power supply taken from my real life phone, the lower unit in the rack, it is capable of 1MW pulses operating at 1,000V, we are building this system now, in real life. This last Friday (two days ago in real life) I had to tell engineering to upgrade the delivery cable they were making, not spec'd properly, mistakes really suck here in the real life. This ZDT junior amp is showing poor workmanship period, even in the new 'production' pic,, hot glue?
Please do not automatically assume anyone is an "internet wannabe", at least not until you really know... then by all means,, take the gloves off. FYI the top unit is a 20KW synced substrate bias supply to the HiPIMS. These power supplies show exquisite workmanship, they are the most perfectly engineered & built supplies, I have ever had the pleasure of using.
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Nov 19, 2017
ProfessorPat
380
Nov 19, 2017
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rastusThe newest picture is older actually. It’s the production NBM. The first picture is the ZDT Jr at some point between the NBM and now.
The glue looks to be isolation, keeping you from bending the leads on those diodes and shorting something. The newer picture of the ZDT has them mounted flat, rather than vertical, so no lead bending possible, and thus no glue. You could use some fancier insulation, but why bother if it’s just a mechanical stabilizer that’s really only doing anything if you open it up and proceed to fat finger it and bend a lead?
The “frayed” wires I can see look like the shield wires on the cables. I‘ve yet to see somebody make those look good. It’s bare spiral wrap around the other wires. I guess you could insulate it with heatshrink or something, but it’s not a power or signal carrier, so why bother?
I‘m not saying it couldn’t be cleaner, nor am I saying that this is the ideal way to do things, but I don’t see any real issues with how they’ve done it.
Nov 19, 2017
Motorrad
2898
Nov 19, 2017
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rastusNeat! Yes I have seen enough of your previous posts around MD to realize how impressed you are with ...you. The thing is your criticisms here are irrelevant and serve essentially as lead ins for you to engage in dick swinging. Sorry champ, I'm not that impressed. You are the one making assumptions...he's clearly showing the NBM...there is no production yet...ships in June.
Nov 19, 2017
rastus
1391
Nov 19, 2017
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MotorradYour criticisms and swinging are noted, and understood.
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Nov 19, 2017
Motorrad
2898
Nov 19, 2017
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rastusHahaha. Again with the assumptions... The fragility of your bloated ego has been noted. Feynman would call you out as a blowhard too.
Nov 19, 2017
rastus
1391
Nov 19, 2017
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MotorradWrong again assumed one, I would simply be making tools for him, gladly.
Nov 19, 2017
Rick_T
45
Nov 20, 2017
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Rick_TOops.. I made an error. I meant Takman and Kiwame carbon films. Not PRP..
Nov 20, 2017
Anent
167
Nov 20, 2017
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rastusCurious: what are you coating...? & X10 more power than commercially available from Lesker?
Nov 20, 2017
audible
602
Nov 20, 2017
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rastusThe fact that you have a meme ready to go confirms what we have 'assumed' about you. You may or may not be an internet wannabe, it's just that you behave EXACTLY like one. People who create and design do not get on the internet to spray.
Too bad I can't find a meme to direct at you saying something to the effect of: "I can not create it because I don't really understand it, so I just assemble it on spec for people who do understand...then I get on the internet and spray about it to make it seem like I do really understand."
I've read enough of Feynman to know that he would just roll his eyes at you and chuckle at your inane bloviating as he walked away...which is what I am doing now.
Nov 20, 2017
jefe32
149
Nov 20, 2017
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LuisWow! Was totally expecting a hamster on a hamster wheel in there. Smoking a cigarette. Looking tired. With bags under it's eyes. Damn. LOL looks pretty cool, actually.
Nov 20, 2017
rastus
1391
Nov 21, 2017
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AnentHi Anent, thanks for what looks like a genuine, interested and intuitive question, not some ad hominem attack.
Lesker is more R&D so if you are looking at general systems, the supplies are smaller, though the sputter cathodes are as well. So in conventional DC magnetron operation, we both fall into the same power density brackets. All is still dependent on materials, cathode style etc. Sputtering is not the most efficient of processes in energy consumption, as most goes into waste heat, the actual sputter component is sorta the weak link in the circuit... This puts practical limits on power density levels, we have to cool stuff or it melts; or recrystallizes targets causing uniformity issues; or just blows it to bits after arcing and cratering it, lots O' stuff happens when you push it. We do R&D as well, but call it Research & Deliver, more at the make a buck level, but some pure research as well.
The HiPIMS supply you see is a 10KW unit that can operate in a pulse mode at up to a 1MW level. So here we can now operate at very high effective power densities, while only having to cool at sustainable average power levels. The benefit here is the increase in the ionized ratio of the vapor flux, we can go from <10% to over 90%. This is an enabling effect, we can bias substrates to direct & accelerate the flux, and when it coalesces, it has the energy to find better bonding sites i.e. increased surface mobility, thus increased packing density, better step/via coverage, lower bulk resistivity, better adhesion and smoother films.
Kudos to you, I did not call the thing in the picture a coating system, and you can only see part of it, are you in the biz?
And funny you pick Lesker of all system Mfg., we compete with them at some levels, though with respect, and have the tradition of dinning together once a year in San Fran during the SEMICON show. KJL's history goes back to 1954 and ours back to 1957, we share some history.
To answer your other question, this particular system will be doing through hole & blind via seed layers for HDI, High Density Interconnect, as well of course area deposition for the same, mostly Ti & Cu work. Similar work is TSV, Through Silicon Vias, then you have the vias on the IC's themselves. "There's plenty of room at the bottom" RPF
I will still likely get the ad hominem, but to bring this back to Audio; besides the fact that all of the IC's, power transistors, diodes, thin film caps and resistors involve sputtering... I see a unique application for this relatively new HiPIMS capability we have; resistors, those noisy buggers, current noise that is, plus thermal "popcorn". I visited a small company in CA a few years ago, that I really did not know much about. I learned that they made custom op-amps, small lots of near perfect ones, a term would be boutique . So I asked who the customers were... they said singers... I must have made a bit of a quizzical (read dumb) look on my face... so they nicely explained. They can tailor a circuit for a particular voice... yeah how custom can it get? That custom, hidden away in those nice mics we see. Noise in resistors is basically caused by imperfections, any type, be it actual contaminants or structure, and by structure I mean rough edges at the sub micron level (hundred angstroms RMS), packing density, crystallography & the lattices within. HiPIMS can help produce near perfect films to reduce many of these imperfections, yes, I am trying to entice these folks by offering to do some gratis lab work, we'll see. A bit of a pet project, for what we all want, more perfect recordings.
Rick_T if you are reading this, I have a real interest in your answer here; wouldn't you rather use a deposited thin film low TCR/precision,, a stable & quiescent (not a metal foil) resistor over a carbon one? I know most thin film ones are surface mount or those MELF things, which keep almost all of us re-workers out, but you can still get dual axial lead ones. Some self interest here, but Vishay does make nice ones.
Again Anent, thanks for the interest and insight into an incomplete picture, and an odd acronym...
I did just get my new travel rig today: Korg DS-DAC-100M & matched Phonon SMB-02 DS-DAC Edition cans & matched player Audiogate (had already for the 100 DAC), will report back on them in a new post,, not here...
Nov 21, 2017
Anent
167
Nov 21, 2017
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rastusSaw the ESD flooring and blue lab coat along with the shorty bell jar. Plus you gave the thin film method.... ;) I’m in SoCal but sometimes at LASP—close to your Co I presume.
Nov 21, 2017
Varholiaglimp
939
Nov 21, 2017
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Luis"Schiit is a company that has a good reputation based on merits[;] the names they use for their products and the country of origin are not important. . . ."
Agreed from an audio POV, but contested on the level of unconstructive glee.
"If they are called Nero, Atila or Socrates I'm not interested."
The name of a piece of equipment means nothing in terms of its sound, durability, integrity of design, etc.
However, the name does mean something to me in terms of amusement. Look up Roland Barthes' Mythologies, read the last essay online at your leisure, and you'll see that the language of symbols used in virtually any kind of marketing can be fun to analyze.
People who say marketing that annoys them makes a product itself not worth buying are just as addicted to consumerism as those who buy the product because they're impressed by the marketing. But people who deconstruct the marketing apart from the product entirely are probably trying to inject levity into threads involving warring audio factions and adamant peeing contests of various kinds ("my urine is special!").
Nov 21, 2017
rastus
1391
Nov 21, 2017
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AnentEast coast actually,, some of us got left behind... we manage;)
Nov 21, 2017
rastus
1391
Nov 21, 2017
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Varholiaglimp My favorite, stays in the front of my unabridged dictionary, as additional definition of marketing...
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Nov 21, 2017
Rick_T
45
Nov 22, 2017
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rastusIt’s a matter of taste.. I reserve the higher precision resistors in more critical areas like Phono Equalization, or I/V R’s for certain DACS. I like the Vishay RN 60 series (metal film) on the cathodes too in certain apps like driver stages for PP tube amps. In quality audio, it‘s usually the non-inductive and non-magnetic (leads and end caps) types that are preferred in the direct signal path.
Nov 22, 2017
rastus
1391
Mar 22, 2018
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Rick_THi, sorry to be so long getting back on this, I didn't forget. Prodded Vishay to see the view today from the inside, always an interesting vantage point, and got these comments, a lot was mfg. IP, so only pieces here:
"this subject is something I have had exposure too for many years, in my foil resistor days we sold many parts to a guy in UK called David Heaton, he ran/runs his own business and makes serious high end amplifiers, that cost 8-10K sterling back then, 15K USD. he would use foil resistors, ALPS potentiometers, gold plated wires, and his amps were like rolls Royce cars, decadent and well built... I went to his home one time and he sat me down in his ‘listening room’ and at a low level the sound was out of this world, so rich and hard to describe.... "
"So the best resistors are the foil ones they use the homogenous foil and are pure, there is even a school of thought that uncoated foil parts are better, they started calling them naked Vishay’s , there is lot of chat and argument on the forums, and Charcroft here in the UK sell the naked Vishay’s under their manufacturing licence agreement, www.charcroft .com in UK I’m not convinced that the removal of the coating makes a difference....the foil itself is the key part IMO."
"Based on what I have heard and experienced, the best upgrades come from the VPG product, if you can afford them... http://www.vishaypg.com/foil-resistors/ "
So then the naked's (foil) win for critical path usage at least, and the next in line are the CNS HVPS and RN60 which are thin film deposited films, for Vishay products.
Noise in resistors comes primarily from defects in structure, both intrinsic & surfaces, impurities plus interfaces- terminations/contact/phases. Here I find it interesting that the resistor foil still win in the noise bracket, but I think I can now compete here with new thin film tech we have now, some work ahead...
I see a lot of carbon about, but really don't see it as something to go for, in the direct signal path. Though the Dueland cast carbon/silver products look interesting for crossovers; http://duelundaudio.com/resistors/ But again here they talk about a "Cast Carbon Sound"... another imposing signature...
Foil video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8E3zFVgeOjo
Interesting simple audio study/experiment: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IErowRoM2-E
Parts links: http://www.partsconnexion.com/resistors_vishay_var.html http://www.texascomponents.com/store/VishayFoilResistors.asp http://www.vishaypg.com/docs/63140/var.pdf
Then it goes on to interesting things such as these Tantalum - Silver Audio Note resistors, first I have seen these, these they say are resistance - with no resistance to sound, no mention of noise level, pure silver is just always nice of course:)http://www.partsconnexion.com/resistors_tantalm_silver_two_watt.html
Very nice custom solid Ag connection construction, but again the Ta, which is actually TaN i'm quite sure, is still likely a bit noisy and could be improved upon: http://www.audionote.co.uk/comp/resistors.shtml
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SiCr from my experience is the lowest TCR and a very quiet film, what the THAT thatcorp.com folks use also. I was introduced to it working with IBM Almaden Research, making their quietest, most stable devices, many years ago. I think this is a good candidate, but we can sputter almost anything, with almost perfect structure now. These new films can also have very low intrinsic stress, which also plays a factor in noise, often overlooked.

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Will let you know if I get traction on this endeavor, wanted to respond regardless.
Mar 22, 2018
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