Showing 1 of 693 conversations about:
Currawong
216
Review Team on Head-Fi
Dec 16, 2017
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Will contacted me and asked if I’d like to be part of the launch of the Elex, including posting my impressions of the headphones. I received a pair that Will said would be sonically accurate. Here are the impressions I wrote up. I knew other people who had, or were getting pairs, but we didn't have a chance to compare notes, so these are my thoughts completely independent of anyone else. Will didn't even know what I was going to write until I posted publicly.
FYI, I buy clothes and EDC gear from Massdrop and I bought a pair of K7XX in possibly the very first drop. I met will at the Wikia HQ at a Head-Fi meet just after the Utopia and Elear were released, and met and chatted to Will. Given I'm the kind of person who cannot decide on what color of something I will buy and consequently own a lot of black t-shirts, bags, caps and whatever, you could say the Elex has brought things very much full circle for me!
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My first impression of the Elex was of a “baby” Utopia. I could simply say that they are a less resolving pair of Utopias and be done. Going through my recent playlists, I hear the same things, just the micro, and ultra-micro detail is missing compared to the Utopias. However what’s left is punchy and enjoyable and more open-sounding. Their tonality comes across as a bit light of neutral overall, but a significant amount of this may be more a factor of the precision of their presentation and quality of their bass. For example, if you found the Elear a bit muffled and bass-strong and want more air and punch, then these may be just what you are after. Out of the Hugo 2, every part of the music seems to jump out — vocals emote strongly, guitars pluck and twang and bass notes punch fast with detail. The soundstage seems wider, with sounds on good stereo recordings seeming to come from way outside the headphones. The treble is very present — not overdone, but clean and clear enough even when modern, brighter music comes on. It doesn’t become irritating, at least at my moderate listening levels, as can easily happen with cheaper headphones. The subtle sounds on high-quality recordings don’t have the finesse I get from the Utopias on my system. While I can hear instrument notes decay and echo, those sounds disappear faster and are more “one note” than from the Utopias, which reveal layer upon layer of detail. Despite that, once or twice I ended up looking up from my computer thinking I’d heard a sound from elsewhere in the house when it was a sound coming from within the studio on the recording. The bass, despite being a bit on the light side on some tracks, is where the Elex totally nails things. There is an absolutely delicious precision with excellent amount of detail for headphones in this price range. This allowed me to enjoy listening with the Elex, even though I have better headphones on hand. I tried the Elex out of a variety of gear I have hear and they drove readily easily and consistently out of everything. Switching from, say, a Chord Mojo to my main rig, I could make out an increase in clarity, suggesting to me that at the $799 price Massdrop are asking, they are going to give other headphones in this price range a very serious challenge. The only negatives I can find are that the treble, at least to my ears, can come across as a tiny bit metallic (irony not intended) and the very low bass doesn’t come out with quite the strength that would be ideal (see music impressions). In all other areas, the Elex makes the music I listen to highly enjoyable. I reckon these are excellent “entry level high-end” headphones that can give one a taste of what the hobby is all about, without demanding a huge outlay in equipment.
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Standard bass test tracks:
Angel - Massive Attack
The bass was so punchy that I had to check I hadn’t left the speakers on when listening. It doesn’t have the quantity of deep thump that would make the best match with this kind of track, but then because it is totally the opposite of “boomy” it makes the track quite an experience to listen to anyway. Hey Lion - Sofi Tukker
The (mid-)bass is likewise very punchy from this dance track, and deliciously precise while all the other parts of the track remain distinctly clear. When I Get My Hands on You - The New Basement Tapes
The deep rumble of the low bass notes is distinctly rolled off. On good planars you can really feel those very low notes but not with the Elex. Other tracks:
Rickover’s Dream - Michael Hedges
This is where I compared the detail in note decay. Guitar plucks are beautiful and precise, and this is where you enjoy the emotion of the playing the Elex delivers and are careful NOT to compare to anything better, because this recording has a whole world inside of it. Gentle Storm - Elbow
If there’s a track that was made for the Elex, then this is it. The song itself focusses around the vocals, with a mix of light percussion and piano backing them — no heavy-sounding instruments, Guy Garvey’s vocals reaching right out to you as the other instruments tap and thunk away, each clearly delineated.
Dec 16, 2017
LucQc
211
Dec 16, 2017
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Thanks for the review. The list of tracks will be useful, helping me to know what I can expect from those cans.
Dec 16, 2017
Moonwolf
60
Dec 17, 2017
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Nice review. As always through and un-biased!
Dec 17, 2017
Ayohell
96
Dec 17, 2017
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Cheers for the review man, Just makes me even sadder that I can't get them in the UK :/
Dec 17, 2017
jefe32
145
Dec 17, 2017
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LOL somewhere out there a hardcore Focal headphone fan will plan a trip to one of the countries it ships too. At exactly the time it ships...to the destination hotel's front desk.
Dec 17, 2017
ripsterarmy99
149
Dec 19, 2017
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snake oil salesmen
Dec 19, 2017
mattris
874
Dec 19, 2017
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First of all, "snake oil" implies the product for sale is placebo (does nothing). These headphones are a tweaked Focal Elear. Do you doubt that the changes made (different pads, damping, cables) will affect the frequency response and overall experience with these headphone?
This individual was given an advance unit and offered his opinion. He is not selling the headphones. Getting peoples' impressions of a product is a good marketing strategy - if the product is worthy, of course.
My personal opinion is that while the Focal Elex is a taste of what high-end headphones can offer (without having to spend over a grand), this sale would have been more appealing if Massdrop could have set the lowest price attainable at $699.99... or included Focal's the new case for the current price.
Dec 19, 2017
ElectronicVices
2098
Dec 19, 2017
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Why do several of the mech keyboard community feel the need to pop over to audiophile and crap all over things they don't truly understand? (genuine question, you're not the first nor will you be the last). I don't go over there and ask "WTF?!? would anyone buy knock off TMNT mech keys!"...
Dec 19, 2017
LucQc
211
Dec 19, 2017
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I guess before writing this you at least had the opportunity to do a listening session of Elear with an amp + DAC retailed at least 2 500 $ ?!
Dec 19, 2017
jefe32
145
Dec 20, 2017
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LOL that's a goal I want to have, period. To hear any headphone (worth it's salt of course) with a dac/amp setup at that price. Although I would fear how much I would enjoy it. LOL
Dec 20, 2017
LucQc
211
Dec 20, 2017
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« Although I would fear how much I would enjoy it. LOL »
Yep. With me it's the same thing for a camera. Put one in my hands and I end up joining a group and have to say:
« Hi, my name is Luc and I am addicted to buying expensive [put your choice here] gear. »
options are a) Photography b) Audio
8;-)
Dec 20, 2017
LucQc
211
Dec 20, 2017
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What do you have against those that wish to get more bang for the buck?
Set Sarcasm := OFF
Dec 20, 2017
caliphonia
65
Dec 20, 2017
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That's the problem with computer fans, especially PC fans. It's always about bang for the buck. There are another class of enthusiasts out there who aspire for the best, and price isn't the top priority. This is who these headphone companies are targeting. Most people in this community are looking for better audio quality not bang for the buck. As long as bang for the buck people don't come in and crap over what we like. Some people geek over the Ford Focus RS bang for the buck. Others just go straight to the Tesla or Ferrari. I don't think those buying the Ferrari believe they're buying snake oil.
Dec 20, 2017
ripsterarmy99
149
Dec 20, 2017
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I'm not saying these particular headphones are snake oil, I'm saying he owns many products that are snake oil and have no scientific basis for their design and price.
Dec 20, 2017
LucQc
211
Dec 20, 2017
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« There are another class of enthusiasts out there who aspire for the best, and price isn't the top priority. »
My Not Deep Enough Cordovan Wallet knows that too well. lol 8;-)
Dec 20, 2017
LucQc
211
Dec 20, 2017
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To say the least, it wasn't easy to guess you meant that...
Dec 20, 2017
mattris
874
Dec 20, 2017
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To some, a product's appearance can make it worth a higher cost. Focal's premium headphones are certainly beautiful.
Dec 20, 2017
ElectronicVices
2098
Dec 20, 2017
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I certainly don't believe cables make a difference but that is with my ears and in my system. The human perception of sound is so complex and variable from individual to individual that I don't rule out the possibility that others perceive a difference. For my wallets sake I'm glad I don't find benefit in expensive/exotic cabling nor "hardwood anti-vibration plinths". I have enough stupidly expensive interests to make my wallet cry. I would encourage you to expound more when you post stuff like that or risk coming across as another teenage, PC Master Race screaming, cretin.
Dec 20, 2017
ripsterarmy99
149
Dec 20, 2017
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Schiit has made incoherent statements on their multibit DACs, they are snake oil.
Dec 20, 2017
caliphonia
65
Dec 20, 2017
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Ok, I also took your original comment as a slight against the headphone and not the reviewer. I also raised an eyebrow when he mentioned cables making a difference in one of his reviews, but given how people claim earpads also changes the sound, I might accept that a different cable might provide a different resistance level. However, I don't believe it enough to pay $400 for any Silver Dragon cables.
Dec 20, 2017
ripsterarmy99
149
Dec 20, 2017
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If a cable makes a change in sound, either your first one was incorrectly made/broken, or the new one is incorrectly made/broken. It shouldn't change the sound at all.
Dec 20, 2017
LucQc
211
Dec 20, 2017
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Ok.
So every type of shielding are achieving the same results regarding *** noise reduction *** ? Every type of connectors are achieving the same results as well.
A more expensive amp that comes with more expensive types of Input are achieving nothing better than let's say an Objective 2 amp?
Funnily part of the answer is in your comment?! lol 8;-)
You may say the improvement is Over-Rated. Pretending it « shouldn't change the sound at all » is another story.
If you had a basic Professional Training in Electrical or Electronic Engineering you would not write this.
Dec 20, 2017
ripsterarmy99
149
Dec 20, 2017
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Yes. If you wire headphones to have a balanced connection it allows them to get more power. I'm sorry if your peon brain perceives louder volume with better quality, but that is not the case. Yes, all cables sound the same if made correctly.
Dec 20, 2017
LucQc
211
Dec 20, 2017
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Noise equal Louder Volume for you? lol Are you reading what I write? You clearly showed that you know a thing or two regarding shielding. Their purpose. How it can withstand every day use. Etc.
Let's call it a day or more rightly, let's agree to disagree. I'll move on to more useful things...
Dec 20, 2017
LucQc
211
Dec 20, 2017
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About Balanced Audio Signals
https://documentation.apple.com/en/soundtrackpro/usermanual/index.html#chapter=C%26section=5%26tasks=true
It's Apple it must be snake oil, right? 8;-)
Luc -Your favorite unskilled peon brain
Dec 20, 2017
FuckHead-Fi
380
Dec 20, 2017
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louder is perceived as better and that's why most albums are mastered to be insanely loud.
Dec 20, 2017
FuckHead-Fi
380
Dec 20, 2017
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Ha. [moderated]
Dec 20, 2017
FuckHead-Fi
380
Dec 20, 2017
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There is no reason to ever spend that much on a DAC/amp. Real hi-fi equipment is cheap.
Dec 20, 2017
LucQc
211
Dec 20, 2017
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Let's call it a day or more rightly, let's agree to disagree. I'll move on to more useful things... Luc -Your favorite unskilled peon brain
Dec 20, 2017
mBTX
5
Dec 20, 2017
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You CLEARLY have NO idea what balanced wires do. It is a way of eliminating any other signal that may be picked up on the way. Yes, it has a side benefit of +6db, but that is not its reason for being. Both the positive and negative sides pick up the same interference, just mirrored (inverted). When re combined the inverted signals cancel each other out. (see basic algebra for more on this)
Dec 20, 2017
ripsterarmy99
149
Dec 21, 2017
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Yes, I'm saying for headphones they do absolutely nothing, as most users use them in short runs to their desk. I'm fully aware of the use of XLR for professional audio applications, all of which audiophools don't use.
Dec 21, 2017
LucQc
211
Dec 21, 2017
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Do Not Feed The Troll
If he wants to call others names he should do it with POTUS. 8;-)
Luc -Your favorite unskilled peon brain
Dec 21, 2017
JTCPingas
82
Dec 21, 2017
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Audiophools and placebophiles? ;)
Dec 21, 2017
LucQc
211
Dec 21, 2017
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Do Not Feed The Troll
Dec 21, 2017
JTCPingas
82
Dec 21, 2017
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Why Are You Capitalizing Every First Letter?
Dec 21, 2017
LucQc
211
Dec 21, 2017
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Is it important?
If you really, really want to complain please do it to this website:
http://acronymsandslang.com/DNFT-meaning.html
Please tell them you're not happy when they write this: « Do Not Feed the Trolls can be abbreviated as DNFT »
Dec 21, 2017
ElectronicVices
2098
Dec 21, 2017
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[moderated] don't take "loudness war" literally. The TL:DR for you (yeah I've seen many of your posts so I will keep this short and as monosyllabic as possible... ) Compression of the dynamic range of sounds within a recording is the core of it... there is no longer a wide variance between the soft and loud sounds within tracks as was common place for much of the early/"golden" days of recorded media. This gives a perceived louder/more vibrant beat but leads to the finer details taking a frickin beating. I don't know where you got burned kid but you've got to learn to let shit go... playing keyboard avenger on the internet for those that spend some extra cash on the audio rigs isn't going to help whatever is messing with you.
Dec 21, 2017
FrostyP
487
Dec 21, 2017
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The guy's a troll
Dec 21, 2017
FuckHead-Fi
380
Dec 21, 2017
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I don't know what you are talking about. Louder is perceived as better and this is a basic fact. It is important to volume match listening tests because of this.
Dec 21, 2017
ripsterarmy99
149
Dec 21, 2017
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Having a differing opinion doesn't make you a troll. This is the current state of the left, ladies and gentlemen.
Dec 21, 2017
FrostyP
487
Dec 21, 2017
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"This is the current state of the left, ladies and gentlemen"
hahahahahahahahahahahahaha if you two aren't troll then you're just morons
Dec 21, 2017
ripsterarmy99
149
Dec 21, 2017
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Anyone who disagrees with me is a moron. Really makes you think...
Dec 21, 2017
mattris
874
Dec 21, 2017
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Amazing. Every word that you just said... is wrong.
(to quote a certain character in a certain new movie)
Dec 21, 2017
ripsterarmy99
149
Dec 21, 2017
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Prove it, don't make baseless accusations.
Dec 21, 2017
mattris
874
Dec 22, 2017
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First of all, you started out by making a baseless accusation ("snake oil salesmen") then attempted to clarify by saying:
1. Currawong "owns many products that are snake oil and have no scientific basis for their design and price".
For many, "design and price" are the primary reasons in choosing to purchase one product instead of another. Unique, innovative, and high-performance designs usually add to the final cost of a product. And personal preference usually has nothing to do with science.
2. "Schiit has made incoherent statements on their multibit DACs, they are snake oil."
What do particular Schiit products have to do with these headphones or your point?
3. "If a cable makes a change in sound, either your first one was incorrectly made/broken, or the new one is incorrectly made/broken. It shouldn't change the sound at all."
What constitutes "incorrectly made" to you? Compared to free-in-the-box (thin but functional) speaker wire, have you heard the sound improvement a lower-gauge speaker wire makes on the sound produced... or on longer runs? Improved shielding in cables is less obvious, but it can be beneficiary in some situations.
4. "If you wire headphones to have a balanced connection it allows them to get more power. I'm sorry if your peon brain perceives louder volume with better quality, but that is not the case. Yes, all cables sound the same if made correctly."
Various conductive metals and/or resistance ratings can significantly affect the resulting sound. If you can't hear the difference, you might consider upgrading your equipment... or getting your hearing tested. ElectronicVices makes some excellent points in his second post.
5. "I'm saying for headphones they do absolutely nothing, as most users use them in short runs to their desk. I'm fully aware of the use of XLR for professional audio applications, all of which audiophools don't use."
What you hear will be determined by the level of performance of your equipment (headphones, speakers, wires, cables, etc.) and hearing abilities. Balanced (XLR) connections are not exclusive to "professionals" or "short runs" for good reason. An increasing number of headphone/speaker users choose balanced hardware and connections to enjoy the benefits: improved channel separation, resistance to interference, maintenance of signal integrity, increased power, etc.
6. "Having a differing opinion doesn't make you a troll. This is the current state of the left, ladies and gentlemen."
It does when you're making so many "baseless accusations". Your statements are contradictory to science and to people with high-quality gear (and good hearing) that can discern audio attributes/differences/improvements that you apparently cannot.
And stooping as low as to make political statements in an audio discussion forum? Now that's troll-speak if I've ever heard it!
7. "Anyone who disagrees with me is a moron. Really makes you think..."
I think not.
Dec 22, 2017
ripsterarmy99
149
Dec 22, 2017
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1. If it doesn't do anything and design and price are the only determining factors, that is a placebophile at it's best. 2. He owns a product schiit can't even explain with scientific evidence. They literally made it to sell to suckers (placebophiles) to make them think it's some great DAC but in reality it does nothing special but earn them money. 3. If you sincerely believe this, you are wrong. Improved shielding is valid for XLR cables for runs where interference is high and in a profession use case where it actually matters. Please provide results of a double blind volume matched ABX test of speaker wire to prove you can hear a difference. 4. Again, if you believe this the industry welcomes you with open arms. They want your money, placebophile. 5. In a real world use case for a consumer sitting at their desk with an amp/dac combo, XLR vs RCA will not affect sound at all. 6. https://www.reddit.com/r/audiophile/comments/6nla0a/incoherent_bullschiit_the_spurious_myth_of/ Read that and tell me my statements are contradictory to science. When the left stops being offended at a discussion, I'll stop calling them out on it. Don't like free speech? Move somewhere else. 7, That was the claim made.
Dec 22, 2017
LucQc
211
Dec 22, 2017
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« 3. If you sincerely believe this, you are wrong. Improved shielding is valid for XLR cables for runs where interference is high and in a profession use case where it actually matters. Please provide results of a double blind volume matched ABX test of speaker wire to prove you can hear a difference. 4. Again, if you believe this the industry welcomes you with open arms. They want your money, placebophile. 5. In a real world use case for a consumer sitting at their desk with an amp/dac combo, XLR vs RCA will not affect sound at all. »
Do you there is something outside your self centered virtual world?
You're wrongly assuming so many things, that you end up with fallacious comments.
Not everyone is enjoying music sitting at your darn script kid desk. You can not assume this. Period!
When you wrote « Yes. If you wire headphones to have a balanced connection it allows them to get more power. I'm sorry if your peon brain perceives louder volume with better quality, but that is not the case. » you made a fool of yourself. That could have been easily avoided if you had been through early curriculum professional training.
Please refer to stuff that can be academically verified if you want to have the last words.
If you are really for freedom, not only freedom of speech. Why aren't you allowing others to freely spend money on "placebophile" stuff. Why are you annoying us with your proselytism. Are you trying to impose us your faith?
Also, the only thing you're achieving when you start calling names is looking like POTUS tweeting too early in the morning. Is this what you want? Please, please give us a nice break.
Dec 22, 2017
ripsterarmy99
149
Dec 22, 2017
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" you made a fool of yourself. That could have been easily avoided if you had been through early curriculum professional training." this doesn't say anything, you're just saying lol u arent an audio engineer u didn't go to school, elaborate on specifics.
"Why aren't you allowing others to freely spend money on "placebophile" stuff. " I am, just don't claim that it makes any sonic difference when it doesn't and scientifically doesn't. Here's your proof:
http://www.audioholics.com/audio-video-cables/debunking-the-myth-of-speaker-cable-resonance
Dec 22, 2017
LucQc
211
Dec 22, 2017
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Speaker cables on discussion regarding HeadPhones. I give up.
You're right. I am darn unskilled peon brain. I should throw my diploma in the garbage bin. It has been a true waste of time. My alma mater should be shameful. *sigh*
IgnoreList += "ripsterarmy99"
Dec 22, 2017
mattris
874
Dec 22, 2017
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1. If it doesn't do anything and design and price are the only determining factors, that is a placebophile at it's best.
Your definition of "doesn't do anything" obviously differs from others'. Just curious... What headphone/speaker gear have you heard? What gear do you currently own?
2. He owns a product schiit can't even explain with scientific evidence. They literally made it to sell to suckers (placebophiles) to make them think it's some great DAC but in reality it does nothing special but earn them money.
Schiit is responsible for their product specifications/claims/advertisements. It's common for companies/businesses to espouse bold, exaggerated, or out-right false claims in an attempt to improve sales. People are responsible for doing their own research, so it's ultimately their choice whether they want to give a company their business.
3. If you sincerely believe this, you are wrong. Improved shielding is valid for XLR cables for runs where interference is high and in a profession use case where it actually matters. Please provide results of a double blind volume matched ABX test of speaker wire to prove you can hear a difference.
So you admit, improved shielding can be useful in some cases. When I'm listening to music, "it actually matters". Obviously, you won't believe any test results unless they agree with your position. So I won't bother.
Again, what constitutes "made correctly" to you?
To me, the differences/benefits of lower-gauge speaker wire (compared to the thin, free-in-the-box cable) are obvious - even on relatively low-end equipment. Have you ever conducted this test, or are you a blind (deaf) denier?
4. Again, if you believe this the industry welcomes you with open arms. They want your money, placebophile.
As a general statement, varying headphone cables and balanced audio connections can affect the resulting sound. Of course, some different cables may sound the same to most people. And the benefits of balanced audio connections may not be able to be heard on all set-ups... and clearly not by all people. While you may not be able to hear the difference with your equipment/ears, you cannot tell others what they can hear.
5. In a real world use case for a consumer sitting at their desk with an amp/dac combo, XLR vs RCA will not affect sound at all.
On relatively low-end gear (headphones, speakers, DACs, amps) on a desk, I concede that most people will not hear a difference, apart from the stronger/louder signal. But as the gear is upgraded (and the volume/distance from the speakers increases), sound quality improvements become more obvious. Of course, ones hearing/listening abilities will often be the bottleneck.
6. Read that and tell me my statements are contradictory to science. When the left stops being offended at a discussion, I'll stop calling them out on it. Don't like free speech? Move somewhere else.
Again with Schiit's Mulitbit issue. I'll read it later. Seems they may have made a false/misleading claim, but not all audio claims are false. Want to discuss political issues in an headphone/audio forum? Move somewhere else.
7. That was the claim made.
That anyone that disagrees with you "is a moron"? I suppose trolls only have big ears - not good ones.
Dec 22, 2017
LucQc
211
Dec 22, 2017
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« That anyone that disagrees with you "is a moron"? I suppose trolls only have big ears - not good ones. »
You made my day with that one.
* thumb_up *
LOL
Dec 22, 2017
FrostyP
487
Dec 22, 2017
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You really think someone on Reddit knows what they're talking about?
Dec 22, 2017
ripsterarmy99
149
Dec 22, 2017
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1. Baiting for me to list my gear, only going to result in shitting on me for not spending enough money, further proving my point. I have the world's most neutral full size headphone currently in production, powered just fine.
2. That's fine, but when you have people like aornic and currawong making youtube videos slobbering over supposed increases in sound quality without measurements, that is where the problem lies.
3. Yes, 50+ foot runs require better shielding due to the degradation of the signal and interference, something that happens in the pro audio field. Noone has a 50 foot room with source gear at one end and speakers in the other. Useless for home use.
4. When there are measurements that literally prove it, yes I can. Again, please post a double blind volume matched A/B/X test of you telling a balanced from a singled ended connection. (protip you won't because you can't hear that).
5. More bait to justify calling people poorfags indirectly, good hifi gear isn't expensive. NFB11 is the only amp/dac you need at $300 and is at the upper limit of dac/amps that affect sound; tube amps are a whole other subject.
6. I won't call people out on being so far left when they stop being professionally offended when someone doesn't agree.
7. Making baseless, non factual, non scientific, non test backed claims; yes you are an idiot if you make these. Measurements exist for a reason, as an objective set of data to prove what something sounds like/does to sound. Also, I can just about guarantee your supposed god ears couldn't touch a well experienced audio engineers. Keep telling yourself you've got gods own ears; it won't get you anywhere without testing.
Dec 22, 2017
ripsterarmy99
149
Dec 22, 2017
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You really think someone on Massdrop knows what they're talking about? Same illogical fallacy, I'd like a reasonably intelligent conversation thanks.
Dec 22, 2017
FrostyP
487
Dec 22, 2017
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We get it you frequent reddit and read NWAVGuy's blog once
Dec 22, 2017
ripsterarmy99
149
Dec 22, 2017
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I browse /g/, not plebbit.
Dec 22, 2017
FrostyP
487
Dec 22, 2017
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That's actually worse lmao
Dec 22, 2017
ripsterarmy99
149
Dec 22, 2017
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You browse Massdrop, worst of them all. This is an illogical fallacy in which you criticize me regardless. Please stop being so pointlessly stupid.
Dec 22, 2017
mattris
874
Dec 23, 2017
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1. Baiting for me to list my gear, only going to result in shitting on me for not spending enough money, further proving my point. I have the world's most neutral full size headphone currently in production, powered just fine.
Just fine? Coming from the person who is obsessed with specifics and measurements? How ironic.
If listing your gear will further prove your point, then why would you not do it? I have no plans to shit on you “for not spending enough money”. If you're pleased with your rig, I'm happy for you. I'm just curious if you'd likely be able to hear a difference if you compared cables, balanced connections, different DAC/amps, etc.
And from earlier, could please tell me what you mean by "doesn't do anything"?
2. That's fine, but when you have people like aornic and currawong making youtube videos slobbering over supposed increases in sound quality without measurements, that is where the problem lies.
I would say it's wise to be cautious of reviews that do not state measurements. But measurements do not tell the full story... only attributes like frequency response, THD, and impulse response. Those that review headphone/speaker/DAC/amps describe what they hear with certain music, as well as make comparisons to other similar products. Taking into consideration reviewers' impressions of a headphone is an important step to most people, and their personal opinions can be valuable to those who don't have the time (or means) to audition a product before choosing whether or not to buy it.
Other headphone properties include sound-stage width/height/depth, imaging, detail, speed, tonal accuracy, and the portrayal of space... attributes that computers or testing equipment simply cannot describe.
3. Yes, 50+ foot runs require better shielding due to the degradation of the signal and interference, something that happens in the pro audio field. Noone has a 50 foot room with source gear at one end and speakers in the other. Useless for home use.
For longer runs of speaker wires, the gauge rating is far more important to take into consideration than shielding. Some may have longer speaker wire runs, so your advice is useless.
4. When there are measurements that literally prove it, yes I can. Again, please post a double blind volume matched A/B/X test of you telling a balanced from a singled ended connection. (protip you won't because you can't hear that).
Incorrect. I can hear the difference. No need to trying to “prove it” to you since you won't believe me. Also, just because your gear, hearing, and/or listening discernment is lacking, telling others what they can/cannot hear is beyond ignorant, foolish, and condescending.
5. More bait to justify calling people poorfags indirectly, good hifi gear isn't expensive. NFB11 is the only amp/dac you need at $300 and is at the upper limit of dac/amps that affect sound; tube amps are a whole other subject.
When did I ever say that you have to spend lots to enjoy "good hi-fi"? But as a general rule with all products, greater performance and/or higher production costs usually mean that a higher product cost is justified. Considering their modest price, the NFB11 may be the overall best-value solid-state DAC/amp. But don't kid yourself; it is not “at the upper limit of dac/amps that affect sound”.
6. I won't call people out on being so far left when they stop being professionally offended when someone doesn't agree.
I'm not offended by you (or the "far left"). I'm just telling you that you are simply wrong to deny the benefits of balanced audio and low-gauge speaker wire.
And when I stated earlier that “your statements are contradictory to science”, I misspoke. I don't care what science/measurements say - only what the product sounds like to me, with my gear... and how it makes me feel.
7. Making baseless, non factual, non scientific, non test backed claims; yes you are an idiot if you make these. Measurements exist for a reason, as an objective set of data to prove what something sounds like/does to sound. Also, I can just about guarantee your supposed god ears couldn't touch a well experienced audio engineers. Keep telling yourself you've got gods own ears; it won't get you anywhere without testing.
Most measurements that describe headphone/speaker sound properties are not “objective” since universal standards do not exist. They are only a indication on a case-by-by-case basis, considering the (often questionable or inconsistent) standards of the tester/reviewer/company.
I've heard numerous, mass-produced, music releases from "well experienced audio engineers" that are significantly flawed (unnatural frequency presentation, significantly reduced dynamics, poor editing, etc.). So that statement means absolutely nothing to me... as does “just about” everything else you've typed here.
Correct me if I'm wrong:
You own gear you're happy with. And because you cannot hear the improvements/differences of (balanced) cables, speaker wires, and better (and sometimes more expensive) gear, you believe others are wasting their money but get little (or absolutely no) improvement in sound.
If so, you could have just said as much without coming across as contradictory, bitter, and insulting.
Dec 23, 2017
ripsterarmy99
149
Dec 23, 2017
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I'm going to spare longer explanations this time, short and sweet.
Objective measurements tell 90% of the headphones experience. Raw FR response is objective, since measuring raw is a universal standard, compensation curves aren't. Curious as to how you forgot this. I don't listen to speakers, only nearfield monitors because they are the most neutral.
You're making a baseless claim. The burden of proof is on YOU to prove your baseless claim. For as long as you hear a difference between balanced and single ended, I run a minute mile. No sense in proving it to you, since you're not going to believe me anyways. Just because your physical ability is lacking, tell others they can't is beyond ignorant, foolish, and condescending.
See how retarded that sounds?
NFB-11 is all you need for solid state, no solid state amps do anything better, they either do something wrong or do something different for the sake of being different (aka not neutral and therefore objectively wrong).
Believe me, Rick Rubin, Tony Maserati, Tchad Blake, Spike Stent, Justin Niebank, Chris Lord-Alge, Andrew Scheps, Serban Ghenea, and Manny Marroquin all have better hearing than you. Your hearing will never eclipse theirs. You will never produce a multi platinum selling record, so why brag about your hearing? Others will always be better.
Dec 23, 2017
mattris
874
Dec 23, 2017
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"Short and sweet" this time? Nope.
Raw FR response is objective, since measuring raw is a universal standard
The results of a FR test depend on numerous variables: the specific frequency sweep playback file, DAC/amp used, microphones used, head-rig design/material, pad seal, condition/age of the headphone drivers/pads, etc. And just as two people do not hear exactly the same, not every pair (of a specific headphone model) will produce the exact same FR. Ever wonder why numerous graphs exist for the same headphone? "Curious as to how you forgot this."
I don't listen to speakers, only nearfield monitors because they are the most neutral.
What's your definition of "neutral"? And while you're at it, could you please explain "doesn't do anything (better)" in regards to amps, balanced cables, and low-gauge speaker wire?
You're making a baseless claim. The burden of proof is on YOU to prove your baseless claim. For as long as you hear a difference between balanced and single ended, I run a minute mile.
That's just it. I don't have to prove anything to you. I don't care one iota if you doubt my claims or hearing discernment abilities. Worldwide, millions of people (and hundreds of companies) have similar hearing to me, agree with my "claims", and spend significant time any money producing and enjoying products that you doubt produce any benefit. Until you've compared these connections/cables/wires yourself, you come across as ignorant and bitter. But even if you can't hear a difference after testing, I won't care.
Indeed, your "minute mile" analogy was "retarded" since no one has even been - nor will ever be - recorded running that fast since doing so is physically impossible.
NFB-11 is all you need for solid state, no solid state amps do anything better, they either do something wrong or do something different for the sake of being different (aka not neutral and therefore objectively wrong).
I've never heard it, but I'm aware that the NFB-11 is a excellent unit... one of the best-value, single-ended, desk DAC/amps in the world. But saying that "no solid state amp can do anything better" is simply ridiculous. Other DAC/amps offer additional features like greater power potential, balanced-out/in, analog-input, DSD/higher bit-rate compatibility, additional settings/filters, a display, and portability.
And "not neutral" does not mean "objectively wrong" since some prefer a lean, or bright, or warm, or outright bassy presentation to their music. Personal preferences are subjective. But if one's is looking for a modestly-priced DAC/amp with a realistic/transparent sound, then the NFB-11 would be a fine choice.
Believe me [...] all have better hearing than you. Your hearing will never eclipse theirs. You will never produce a multi platinum selling record, so why brag about your hearing? Others will always be better.
I know that I can hear better than you. And while we will never know if those men have better hearing than me, good on them for selling multi-platinum records. In the meantime, I will enjoy my excellent hearing and share my gear and love of music with my friends and family.
We clearly arrived at different conclusions regarding the benefits of higher-end cables/gear. But that's ok since everyone is entitled to an opinion. Though in the future conversations/debates, it would be wise to refrain from calling people "morons" and "idiots" if you want to be taken seriously.
Dec 23, 2017
mattris
874
Dec 23, 2017
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Happy to brighten your day! ;-)
Dec 23, 2017
ripsterarmy99
149
Dec 23, 2017
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People want hits on their sites and want to be considered credible, that's why multiple measurements exist. Solderdude uses a flatplate (lol) and has wild deviations of measurements. Jude at head-fi has a fine rig, as does tyll, and as does goldenears. Those are the only valid measurement sources.
Neutral is measures flat. The world's most neutral full size headphones at any price, the Sennheiser HD600, measure the flattest of any headphone currently available. Please see the included link below.
"Doesn't do anything better" means doesn't increase sound quality. Please post results of a double blind A/B/X test with the Sennheiser HD800, headphones that include a manufacturer made SE and XLR cable in the box. They do not do anything other than allow it to get more power using an XLR balanced connection, plain and simple. Again, if you want to make an unwarranted claim, please back it up! People lie on the internet all the time, as it is easy to make a claim without having to prove anything.
I run a minute mile, I don't care one iota if you doubt my claims or running abilities. I don't have to prove anything to you since you'll never believe me, hundreds of my peers all can run minute miles. No one has ever been recorded to hear a sound difference between a singled ended and balanced connection, please stop trying to act like you can. You're using the internet as a proxy of anonymity to make baseless claims.
" like greater power potential, balanced-out/in " NFB-11 powers all headphones except some rare cases which require special amps, like the HE-6. It is then therefore providing an ample amount of power to all headphones currently on the market, thus making it more than adequately powered. "analog-input" You don't buy a combo unit to only use it as a dac, or only using it as an amp. Audio GD has separate products for that, thus making this argument invalid. "DSD/higher bit-rate compatibility" DSD doesn't increase music fidelity, if you think it does however please post double blind A/B/X testing to prove you can tell a difference between FLAC lossless and DSD. "additional settings/filters" Unnecessary and colors the sound, therefor being objectively not neutral, and therefor objectively bad. "a display" These are not a commonly requested feature, and therefore not in demand. They also increase costs when making it without a display could save money and keep the MSRP low to gain more sales. " portability" If you need portability sure, there are good options out there but desktop amplifiers/dacs provide the best sound quality.
"And "not neutral" does not mean "objectively wrong"". Yes it does. The definition of high fidelity is as follows: "the reproduction of an effect (such as sound or an image) that is very faithful to the original." Overly bassy and overly bright headphones bring in too much bass or a fake amount of detail with treble, none of which is present during the original recording. That makes them objectively wrong. Not all of us are melanin enriched like you however, Jaquan. Not everyone likes bassy headphones.
"I know that I can hear better than you. And while we will never know if those men have better hearing than me". First of all what quantifies better hearing, since I can still hear up to 20khz perfectly fine (and above that up to about 25khz), thus making my hearing perfect. Secondly, those men do have better hearing than you, it's the reason why you're not a top name audio engineer. They objectively have better hearing than you will ever have.
Science is not an opinion. There are ways to tell OBJECTIVELY what things do to the sound and what is out of the realm of human perception. Balanced cables, DSD, and any other audiophool jargan is purely to make money, which by the way is the main goal of any business, regardless how many lies they feed you to make you their friend.
Dec 23, 2017
LucQc
211
Dec 23, 2017
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Almost as enjoyable than running this little line of code: IgnoreList += "ripsterarmy99"
Since the troll is on IgnoreList I got rid of discussing politics, religion, running etc. in headphone's threads.
Dec 23, 2017
ripsterarmy99
149
Dec 23, 2017
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The fact that you can't have a civilized discussion without letting your emotions get in the way proves just how childish you are. I hope you may soon find a world that puts emotions above facts.
Dec 23, 2017
projectssj
18
Dec 23, 2017
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Michael Hedges is one of my go-to reference musicians when playing music!
Dec 23, 2017
mattris
874
Dec 23, 2017
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Since you won't disclose your set-up, I have to assume that you own a Sennheiser HD600 and NFB-11... an excellent rig, especially for its cost. But it's far from end-game if you're truly serious about enjoying music on headphones. (Sennheiser's new HD660S bests the HD600 in sound realism. And the NFB-28.38 DAC/amp would be an excellent choice to run it balanced.)
The "only valid measurement sources" or just the most famous ones? What about diyaudioheaven? But again, graphs/measurements offer little more than frequency and impulse response. There's so much else that matters when recreating (and enjoying) sound/music on headphones.
Yes, neutral audio means "flat across the audible spectrum". But in practice, neutral equipment its only useful in recording, DACs, and amps. Literal "flat" headphones (or speakers) sound fatiguing, with far too much treble.
"nearfield monitors" ... "are the most neutral"
As a percentage of all models, yes, nearfield monitors are the most neutral. But that blanket statement is not accurate since some bookshelf or tower speakers are more neutral than some nearfield monitors. For speakers, calibration hardware/software can be used to correct attributes that detract from attaining a desired neutral (or natural) sound. (Most home theater receivers include microphone calibration that accomplishes this excellently. And a few new headphones have a similar process to correct for human hearing and varying ear shapes.)
Please define "increase sound quality". I ask since you beleive that more powerful amps, balanced cables, low-gauge speaker wire, different conductive material cables, hi-resolution files, DACs better than the one in the NFB-11, and digital filters "don't do anything better".
As a general rule, amplifiers that can deliver more peak power will increase overall sound quality in headphones. Improvements include greater dynamics and clarity - in addition to higher potential volume, of course.
I have nothing to prove to you. But even if I wanted to, I cannot back-up my claim because you cannot hear how I hear. And posting the results of a double-blind A/B/X test will not satisfy you since you won't believe me if the results don't reach the conclusion you were expecting. (And unfortunately, you cannot conduct the test with me.)
NFB-11 is all you need for solid state, no solid state amps do anything better.
Sorry, your defense for it having no analog-input made no sense at all. It's a glaring omission. And without a balanced-out, you're missing out on driving your HD600s to their maximum potential. "Additional settings/filters" in DACs allow for more adjustments to the signal - to make the sound more natural/real - during its conversion from digital to analog... before being sent to the amplifier. Your NFB-11 just has one (fixed) filter and no settings to tweak the sound to your desire. True, without filters or other options, a display is not necessary.
You sound like you're defending Audio-DG's decisions to omit features on the NFB-11 in an attempt to validate your decision in choice of DAC/amp. Would you have supported them if they had included a 16-bit/44.1 kHz chip? (I'm guessing you'll claim that 16/44.1 files are the limit of human hearing discernment. Doing so could have saved money to "keep the MSRP low to gain more sales", right?)
Desktop amplifiers/dacs provide the best sound quality.
In general, yes. But higher-quality portable DAC/amps are relatively new to the hi-fi market. My iFi micro iDSD Black Label would give your NFB-11 a run for its money in clarity/resolution... but has greater power (volume) potential, better dynamics, an analog-input, coaxial digital out, DSD/higher bit-rate compatibility, filters, bass-boost, and a 3D switch that livens dull recordings and makes single-point live recordings sound unbelievably impressive.
Some (if not most) people like to listen on gear that is not neutral. Their preferences do not make them "objectively wrong". Whether they are deliberate in their choice or just ignorant, some people are simply not bothered that the playback is not faithful to the recording/performance. That's their choice.
Your ability to hear high frequencies does not necessarily mean your hearing discernment (of intricate details within music) is superior. And I find it rich that you claim your hearing is "perfect" after denying the benefits of low-gauge speaker wire/balanced cables/high-end gear, etc.
Secondly, those men do have better hearing than you, it's the reason why you're not a top name audio engineer. They objectively have better hearing than you will ever have.
I'm not a "top name audio engineer" because I am not an audio engineer at all. That has nothing to do with my hearing capabilities. With that logic, why don't you have a Oylmpic gold medal in the 1500m?
Objective measurements tell 90% of the headphones experience.
Incorrect. Tell me what computer/test can objectively measure a headphone's sound-stage width/height/depth, imaging, detail, speed/smoothness, tonal accuracy, and portrayal of air/space. "Pro-tip": None can. Hence, the welcome reports from subjective reviews.
Music/gear enjoyment is not a "science". Sound theorems and "objective" tests do not have ANY impact on peoples' preferences, hearing, and listening abilities.
Regarding your hi-fi beliefs and gear, it sounds like you will refuse to step out of your comfort zone until you choose to believe the results of select double-blind A/B/X listening tests. Until you've listened to better gear yourself to confirm what you can and cannot hear (rather than just reading and trusting books and internet posts/articles), you'll only come across as ignorant to those can hear the benefits that superior gear brings to the table.
Dec 23, 2017
ripsterarmy99
149
Dec 24, 2017
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HD660S is not as neutral as the HD600, which is superior. Tonality comes first, you can have all the soundstage in the world but if you've got T1 or HD800 treble, the headphone is inherently flawed.
Diyaudioheaven is solderdude, as i mentioned. He is far from credible as shown in his DT770 measurements. Flatplate measurements are not valid.
The DAC present in the NFB-11 is the most neutral DAC on the market, digital filters will only chagne its neutrality. Yes, a 16/441 dac would have been perfectly fine, but because of turbo autists like you that claim they can hear the difference between higher bit depth/sample rate, they put in these features to market to others of your kind. Again, if you'd like to prove that you can hear the differences, post double blind A/B/X tests! Even if I can't ever hear that a valid test is a valid test (nice strawman by the way, I appreciate the dancing around facts). Here's a credible reviewer that reviewed the Black Label, which he claims isn't as good sounding as the NFB-11. Funny how that works. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZAYaM3uKBD8 . More power, doesn't matter since the NFB-11 powers all headphones to sufficient levels (ifi is only .5 VRMS stronger btw, not a significant increase). Better dynamics, please elaborate on specifics backed by testing. Making an objective claim means in a study people will find the ifi has better dynamics in a majority. I think it has better dynamics is a more correct statement. Analog in and coax out, both of which are features not suited for a combo unit, statement disregarded. DSD/Higher bitrate & filters, all of which negatively affect sound quality. See here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLEhfieoMq8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bF24aek19t8
for further evidence. (Which was done using science, not baseless claims like you). Seems like audiophools such as yourself only discern differences 62% of the time, well within foobars margin of error, and well within anyone with a brain. To demonstrate absolute concise listening ability, you need a grade of about 85% or up. I encourage you to test yourself.
3D switch and bass boost: Oh boy, features that falsely enhance detail and give you things the recording engineer will never ever hear. Again, reduces fidelity which means objectively bad. Not to mention, Tyrell, not all of us like bass.
Ignorance is bliss, you literally said it. People are ignorant to the fact that they are enjoying music that is inaccurate for the sake of enjoyment.
Your unsubstantiated claims on bit depth, sample frequency and encoding types are all unproved, except by you in your opinion of course; thus meaning your hearing discernment (of intricate details within music) is not superior. Gear is irrelevant, always has and always will be. Pick your favourite audio engineer, give him some DT770s and a Fiio E10k and he will mop the floor with whatever snake oil setup you can put together to master with. I know you want to falsely conflate price with performance to belittle others who haven't spent as much money as you, like all other audiophools, but that is not the case as I previously stated. Ear training is where all the performance is.
I'm not an "olympic runner" because I am not an olympic runner at all. That has nothing to do with my running capabilities.
Problem is, you're claiming your hearing capabilities surpass the most respected ears in the world. Unsubstantiated claims over the internet cannot be taken seriously unless there is evidence to back them up. You're only lying to yourself at this point, and unfortunately it seems that lie has been told often enough to be believed as the truth. Just as I make unsubstantiated claims, you do too. Noone wants to prove anything, so we are both wrong until proven otherwise.
"Objective measurements tell 90% of the headphones experience. " Frequency response is 90% of the headphones experience, so yes I was precisely correct. By the way " tonal accuracy, and portrayal of air/space" are both different ways of saying frequency response, so I appreciate your agreement. I agree that the rest of those are subjective, however these reviews are unnecessary considering how little they add to the listening experience.
"Music/gear enjoyment is not a science. Theorems and "objective" tests do not have ANY impact on peoples' preferences, hearing, and listening abilities."
See the problem is that's where your wrong. The human brain is a feeble organ, rather subject to plenty of mental phenomenon. Seeing two products side by side and seeing one is more expensive than the other, the mind instantly thinks the more expensive one is higher quality. That's just how the mind works. It is also suspect to the placebo effect (one you are plagued by unfortunately), post-purchase rationalization, bias, as well as many others. The reason headphones and amplifiers are measured is because there are objective ways to tell how they sound. You can objectively test someones hearing and listening abilities, so that statement is debunked. Preferences are fickle, but ultimately sticking to the very definition of the foundation of this hobby, high fidelity, means objectively some preferences are wrong. You may enjoy bass, Tayontay, however it is objectively wrong.
"I have nothing to prove to you. Until you've tested better gear (than you have now) to confirm what you can and cannot hear (rather than just reading and believing books and internet posts/articles), you'll just come across as ignorant to those can hear the benefits that superior gear brings to the table."
Another strawman and conflation of price and quality, what a shame. I will continue to "believe" objective, science backed papers and tests because unfortunately that's the real world. Science doesn't care about your feelings. Another woefully ignorant statement disregarded. I feel sorry for you, focusing so much on gear you will never learn to mix and analyze music at a peak audio engineers level. I for one have already done so.


Dec 24, 2017
mattris
874
Dec 24, 2017
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I've come across those videos, which are based in the theory/science -- not real-world music comparison tests with regular people, in their own homes, listening to their own music choices on quality gear.
Tell me, how is the HD600 superior to the HD660S? Reviews (almost) unanimously report that the 660S has better detail retrieval, a wider sound-stage, and better portrayal of space. Also, its frequency response graphs show that its just as "neutral" but with better channel matching than the HD600.
While the reviewer found that the NFB-11 is "faster", he said the Black Label can "drive most headphones better". It's a wash.
As a general rule, an amplifier with more available power will results in better sound. You can choose to believe me or not. I cannot listen for you, nor will I research for you. Audio is personal. So the impetus is on you to prove/determine what sounds good/better and makes you happy. Outright denying claims (that you previously didn't believe) will have you stuck in a rut forever.
Analog in & coax out are features "not suited for a combo unit" like the NFB-11? What a silly argument! Those would be useful features for many, so why would they not be desired? They wouldn't significantly add to the overall cost/price if they were included. Advantage: Black Label.
DSD/Higher bitrate & filters, all of which negatively affect sound quality.
The BL's 3D and bass-boost switches make the sound (subjectively) better in some cases. They both utilize analog circuits, so the music is not re-sampled. Depending on the music, its digital filter switch can make a (subjective) improvement. DSD/Higher bitrates negatively affect sound quality? Come again?
Ignorance is bliss, you literally said it. People are ignorant to the fact that they are enjoying music that is inaccurate for the sake of enjoyment.
Yes!
Indeed, DT770s and a Fiio E10k would be an excellent combo for the money. But why do you keep comparing my hearing to that of an "audio engineer"? It comes off as incredibly aggressive and demeaning... and unbecoming of a professional audio engineer... and civil human being. Once again, you have no clue the caliber of my hearing/listening discernment abilities, so this line of thinking/assuming/question will go nowhere.
No, we are not "both wrong until proven otherwise". We just hear differently and have different opinions. Your hearing discernment is a mystery to me... and mine to you.
Regarding my statement that "lower-gauge speaker wire sounds different (better) than really thin (usually black and red) speaker wire", please don't take my word for it. Compare them yourself. Short runs will do.
Frequency response is 90% of the headphones experience, so yes I was precisely correct. By the way " tonal accuracy, and portrayal of air/space" are both different ways of saying frequency response, so I appreciate your agreement. I agree that the rest of those are subjective, however these reviews are unnecessary considering how little they add to the listening experience.
Tonal accuracy and portrayal of air/space are not "frequency response". Ever wondered why no headphone cannot recreate ultimate realism even if its perfectly "neutral"? In regards to perceived air/space, the implementation and quality of the drivers (and closed-back vs. open-back designs) will yield a wide range of results. Frequency response is only part of the full story. Bring on the subjective reviews!
I know you want to falsely conflate price with performance to belittle others who haven't spent as much money as you, like all other audiophools, but that is not the case as I previously stated. Ear training is where all the performance is.
I never "belittle others" because of how much they've spent on their audio system. But as general rule, better gear (sound, design uniqueness, more-durable/expensive materials used, warranty, etc.) will cost more. But more expensive gear is not always better. Let that one sink in.
My arguments never centered around price. Music enjoyment/gear is about real-world performance, feelings, and fun - not "science-backed papers and tests". Fun is subjective. People have preferences. You're going to call people "objectively wrong" for liking extra bass? You're no fun at all.
Gear is irrelevant, always has and always will be.
And with that ridiculous statement, you lost all credibility. My willingness to converse with you has come to an end. We are running around the proverbial track, going nowhere, and I have run my last lap. Have fun with your minute miles.
Dec 24, 2017
ripsterarmy99
149
Dec 24, 2017
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"They are based in the theory/science -- not real-world tests with people in their own homes, listening to their own music choices on quality gear."
If that were the case, there would be extensive, uncontrolled bias. If you cared to watch the video, lachlan spoke about a paper in which LABORATORY, EXPERIMENTAL LISTENING CONDITIONS (which input no bias) audiophools such as yourself gave a correct answer 62% of the time. That is backed by ACTUAL TESTING. Another statement debunked.
Frequency response is 90% of the headphone, and the 600 has a flatter frequency response and thus is more neutral. Since you said hearing is subjective, that means you can't call my opinion wrong. In my opinion the 600 outperforms the 660S in detail retrieval, spaciousness, and soundstage. Also, here's a graph of the 600 from a reputable measurement database. If you could, please provide a full size headphone currently in production that measures more neutral. https://imgur.com/DNn84hV
" As a general rule, more available power from an amplifier results in better sound from the speakers/headphones. You can choose to believe me or not. I can't listen to confirm for you... nor am I going to research this for you."
So you literally just made a baseless claim and are copping out because you have no proof. Another useless statement debunked.
"Analog in and coax out are features "not suited for a combo unit"? What a silly argument! If one has the use for said feature, when would they be desired?"
Most people plug in a USB cable to a combo unit and run. Most people aren't looking to use coax or another dac/amp with a combo unit. I have use for AES, both not present on either unit. Why don't they add it if I have a use? Because I'm a small minority, like you, and the costs out weight the benefits.
"Tonal accuracy and portrayal of air/space are not "frequency response"."
Tonal accuracy is literally another way of sayin FR. Air/space is a specific band in the FR, as listed here: https://imgur.com/QWSfafM Another argument debunked.
"I never wanted to "belittle others". But as general rule, better gear cost more money. But more expensive gear is not always better."
Yes you did, lying on the internet to seem innocent isn't helping you. I can just about guarantee if you were given a Chord Dave and Utopia you would say they sound miles better than your setup. Anything more expensive than your setup would sound better according to you.
"You're going to call people "objectively wrong" for liking a little extra bass? You're no fun at all."
Yes De'Marcus, not all of us folk are melanin enriched.
"Gear is irrelevant, always has and always will be. And with that statement, you lost all credibility."
Well as much as you don't want to hear this, it's true. Buying more expensive things doesn't just magically make your hearing better and make you more credible, as you claim. It's become quite clear you have some bias against me, considering you're saying I lost all credibility. I thank you for giving me credibility, because you had none to begin with. Anyways, here a two time grammy award winning musician saying gear doesn't matter.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q8v1vvbiVxc&t=185
Another audiophool defeated.
Dec 24, 2017
ElectronicVices
2098
Dec 26, 2017
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If the NFB-11 is as good as it gets why does Audio-gd sell other products of a higher price that perform the same function? OH wait different people want different things! You've got the confident part of an argument down but you're still lacking a bit in the logic portion... this will be my last post in this line of the conversation. I will leave it with the best general advice I can... trust your own ears, spend first on headphones then on amps & dacs... try a cable change if you don't like your current cable (functionally) and same with ear pads... don't go nuts on either. But above all else.. don't listen to shitty music! ;)
Dec 26, 2017
FrostyP
487
Dec 26, 2017
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"Yes De'Marcus, not all of us folk are melanin enriched."
Of course you're racist lmao
Dec 26, 2017
LucQc
211
Dec 26, 2017
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« Of course you're racist lmao » Is racism officially endorsed by Massdrop? 8;-)
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Dec 26, 2017
LucQc
211
Dec 26, 2017
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« If the NFB-11 is as good as it gets why does Audio-gd sell other products of a higher price that perform the same function? »
Snake oil marketing BS?
Dec 26, 2017
ripsterarmy99
149
Dec 27, 2017
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Yes. The point of a company is to make money, first and foremost, no matter what they tell you. If some sucker is willing to buy something that's $2000, why not make something for 300 bucks and sell it for that?
Dec 27, 2017
ripsterarmy99
149
Dec 27, 2017
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Anime profile picture - comment disregarded.
Dec 27, 2017
dasman
369
Dec 28, 2017
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" here a two time grammy award winning musician saying gear doesn't matter. "
So far, I've been reading this on the sidelines. But your quote from Tom Morello is taken completely out of context. He is saying gear doesn't matter in the context of creating music... he is not talking about reproducing music.
Now... can everyone just agree to disagree and be done with it?
Dec 28, 2017
PirateIce
228
Dec 28, 2017
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Yes, I will, not agree?
Dec 28, 2017
PirateIce
228
Dec 28, 2017
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lol
Dec 28, 2017
FrostyP
487
Dec 28, 2017
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Tom Morello's music is also poorly mastered trash :v
Dec 28, 2017
ripsterarmy99
149
Dec 28, 2017
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It's the same thing. Gear never matters. A great ear is a great ear and makes do with whatever equipment possible.
Dec 28, 2017
dasman
369
Dec 28, 2017
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to simplify... a person can make great music with 5 gallon buckets or glasses filled with water. Gear doesn't matter in creating that music.
However, a handheld transistor AM radio (gear) cannot faithfully reproduce that music, no matter how great someone's ear is.
Realize I am not saying a person can't enjoy the music over the AM radio, only that the radio (gear) is not capable of faithfully reproducing it.
Dec 28, 2017
PirateIce
228
Dec 28, 2017
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You and das are doing an amazing job of talking about things that don't relate to listening to music on headphones in this thread, maybe das is trying to make the same point but getting sucked into it, do you need a reminder this does not involve any monitors or mastering gear? You seem to infer headphone comparison is entirely objective, it is not, in my opinion.
Dec 28, 2017
ripsterarmy99
149
Dec 28, 2017
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You do not need hundreds of thousands of dollars in equipment to reproduce music to an objectively transparent level. Basic cheap consumer products can do this easily. AM Radio is not used for music, of course you can use outlier examples of old, outdated technology.
Dec 28, 2017
dasman
369
Dec 28, 2017
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I am merely highlighting that gear does in fact matter when it comes to reproducing music. I am not making any comments related to the cost of said gear. Gear can be expensive, gear can be inexpensive... but gear does matter.
Dec 28, 2017
PirateIce
228
Dec 28, 2017
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I'm gonna start yelling this at my speakers when they distort "Hey! Consumer Product! Dont you know you are easily objectively transparent!"
Dec 28, 2017
mattris
874
Dec 28, 2017
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Sorry, everyone. But I just couldn't resist the troll that is ripsterarmy99. Thank you all for keeping him/her company while I was away. Your excellent responses saved me some time. (But only a little, as you can see.)
First of all, everyone's hearing is different. Nobody is "like" me, so I can't speak for those who took part in tests with "laboratory experimental listening conditions". I remember Lachlan posting a video of him conducting an A/B/X listening test using open-back headphones in a loud environment. So... yeah. I'm not sure I can totally trust his opinions/reports.
Frequency response is 90% of the headphone, and the 600 has a flatter frequency response and thus is more neutral. Since you said hearing is subjective, that means you can't call my opinion wrong. In my opinion the 600 outperforms the 660S in detail retrieval, spaciousness, and soundstage.
You may prefer the 600, but a vast majority of people will agree that it's inferior to the 660S in detail retrieval and soundstage width. And as for neutrality, what about the Focal Clear?
https://www.innerfidelity.com/images/SennheiserHD600.pdf https://www.innerfidelity.com/images/FocalClearsnA1BRQE000007.pdf
I have the world's most neutral full size headphone currently in production, powered just fine.
Until you've heard your HD600 with a good tube amp and/or with a balanced connection, you will only be getting "just fine" sound (that is, somewhat boring/dry/lacking dynamics) ... and you'll continue to sound ignorant.
I challege you to disprove my "baseless claim" that "more available power from an amplifier results in better sound". (By "better" I mean more dynamic, with less distortion at higher volume.)
The NFB-11 is a good mid-grade DAC/amp. But it's single-ended headphone jack as the ONLY output (and only digital inputs) is limiting, to say the least. The extra cost of a digital out & analog in are worth it to me because I use those features included in my iFi micro iDSD Black Label, which will be my primary DAC/amp for years to come.
Tonal accuracy is literally another way of sayin FR
There is more to tone/timbre than just the frequency response that microphones can pick up from a frequency sweep. Human ears can distinguish what sounds seem more accurate/real.
Air/space is a specific band in the FR.
In the context of that graph, "air" is just a word used to describe the 12 kHz -on. If it was so easy to add a sense of air/space to a headphone, why don't manufacturers just add emphasis in that frequency band? The reasons is because that band does not add "air/space" to the sound. The sound that headphone produces is far more complicated than frequency response, impulse response, and THD that a computer test can measure. As I mentioned previously, attributes like sound-stage width/height/depth, imaging, detail, and speed in the various audible ranges can only be (subjectively) described by humans. So your attempts to simplify this matter only makes you appear ignorant and condescending.
Anything more expensive than your setup would sound better according to you.
Do you really think I'm infatuated with the cost of things? I could lists dozens of combinations of headphones/DAC/amps that cost more than my current setup... and sound worse (less natural).
You do not need hundreds of thousands of dollars in equipment to reproduce music to an objectively transparent level. Basic cheap consumer products can do this easily. AM Radio is not used for music, of course you can use outlier examples of old, outdated technology.
Some would say that your HD600s are "old, outdated technology". No audio gear can "reproduce music to an objectively transparent level"... just various subjective levels.
Take a look at the number of people here who dispute your claims. Shall we talk about "credibility"?
It will come as no surprise, but my definition of "audiophool" differs from yours.
Dec 28, 2017
LucQc
211
Dec 29, 2017
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Thanks! I have been using Morello's music when doing listening sessions with expensive gear at local store. Staff members were always smiling. After improving my knowledge from this entertaining thread, I thought it was because they were selling me their snake oil stuff. Now I am relieved to find out it was because of my play list.
8;-P
Set SARCASM := OFF
Dec 29, 2017
LucQc
211
Dec 29, 2017
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« No audio gear can reproduce real sounds "reproduce music to an objectively transparent level"... just various subjective levels. »
It reminds me of a funny story a guy writing a column told us. At an Audio Show a guy was complaining that a gear from another stand was sounding like shit. The guy was a bit embarrassed when he was told that the "shity" sound was coming from musical instruments of musicians playing live unplugged.
Some companies trying to sell their snake oil expensive gear are really nasty! Why do they need to bring musicians to remind us how music should be rendered with gear?
Dec 29, 2017
ripsterarmy99
149
Dec 29, 2017
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"I challenge you to disprove my "baseless claim" that "more available power from an amplifier results in better sound". (By "better" I mean more dynamic, with less distortion at higher volume.)"


Watch this, and you will truly realize how retarded you are. You aren't worth my time.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KayBys8gaJY
Dec 29, 2017
ripsterarmy99
149
Dec 29, 2017
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Also, you claim that balanced connections do make a difference, but don't use one. Really makes you think. I am using my HD600s in dual 3 pin XLR balanced, zero sound difference. I don't own an NFB-11, it's just the best objectively neutral singled ended DAC/AMP.
Dec 29, 2017
mattris
874
Dec 29, 2017
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All that reasoning from me, and your response is to link a (non-audio-related) video (that I am not going to watch) and say that you can't hear an improvement from your (16-year old) headphones with a balanced connection? Not very convincing.
If your HD600s sound no better being run balanced, it's possible your amp is doing something "objectively wrong". Or perhaps, the Sennheiser veil strikes again, hindering your (16-bit/44.1 kHz max-capable) ears from discerning an improvement.
My general statement - that more power yields better sound - is correct (in theory and in practice). I think you know this - but clearly enjoy being contradictory.
While the NFB-11 is (subjectively) not "the best objectively neutral singled ended DAC/amp", I would agree that it's the "best-value DAC/amp to power more-sensitive headphones".
I currently don't use a balanced connection because my current headphones cannot be run balanced. Rest assured, my next headphone and DAC/amp purchases will be brand-new models and balanced-capable.
From earlier, you stated, all cables sound the same if made correctly. You also said the same about speaker wire. Countless people would disagree. Does that not mean anything to you? Could it be that you can't hear a difference - but others can?
And finally... more name-calling. You exhibit so much immaturity - in regards to civil discussion... and audio knowledge. In my (subjective) opinion, you aren't worth anyone's time.
Dec 29, 2017
ripsterarmy99
149
Dec 29, 2017
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Here's what the video says since you're clearly too immature to watch it. If I say "There is a pink unicorn behind you!" and then you look and I say "Oh dear, just as you have gone and looked, it has disappeared." You, being the obvious skeptic that you are would say "Pink unicorns don't exist! What a preposterous thing to say!" I would then be in the WRONG by saying "It is up to you to prove me wrong. If you can't prove that it doesn't exist, it must!" This is called shifting the burden of proof. It is up to me to prove my baseless claim. Similarly, you claim that more power makes headphones sound better, as well as balanced connections make headphones better. The burden of proof is NOT on me when I say "That is incorrect. Please provide valid scientific evidence that proves as such." The burden of proof is on YOU when making a baseless claim. You're trying to hide behind a strawman to validate your points, thus proving who the truly immature person is.
Dec 29, 2017
mattris
874
Dec 29, 2017
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In summary, we are both just people claiming things and stating our opinions. We can choose to believe each other (or not). But I only trust my ears - not theorems or Youtube videos.
I know that my general statement that "more power yields better quality" is correct (in theory and in practice) - and suspect you do, as well. So pardon me if I don't feel the need to "prove" this (or anything) to you. What am I suppose to do, post a links to a books or internet articles? (Yours have not been convincing in the slightest.)
What I will do is continue to enjoy the benefits of powerful amps... and the other things I previously "claimed". I'll leave you to enjoy the world's most neutral full size headphone currently in production, powered just fine.
Dec 29, 2017
LucQc
211
Dec 29, 2017
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« What I will do is continue to enjoy the benefits of powerful amps... and the other things I previously "claimed". I'll leave you to enjoy the world's most neutral full size headphone currently in production, powered just fine. »
You also need to state the obvious truth and allow anybody to do it as well. You and I are idiots because we're buying too expensive gear when it has been scientifically proven that it is not required. The diploma I received from my alma mater does not matter. Actually it should be thrown in the garbage bin. Period! No need to add anything else.
All this will help everyone to make the decision to buy or not the Focal Elex while providing one of the best customer experience!
FYI , I did what I should have done before e.g. make a fire with all my books on Electronics and Electrical Engineering that liers told me to buy.
8;-)
Dec 29, 2017
ripsterarmy99
149
Dec 30, 2017
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Yes, please post links to books or articles with credible scientists with valid scientific tests, yes. How you don't understand that is beyond me.
Dec 30, 2017
inmytaxi
173
Dec 30, 2017
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People who buy Ferrari's are idiots. The ugliest car per dollar ever.
Dec 30, 2017
inmytaxi
173
Dec 30, 2017
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It isn't necessary to have accurate sound reproduction in order to understand the concepts a musician is trying to convey. The point of the music can easily be understood with a $3 set of headphones and a $5 mp3 player.
Dec 30, 2017
rastus
855
Dec 30, 2017
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Add “Please Hold For Guest” after your name, and hotels will look for an upcoming reservation. I ship heavy stuff I don’t want to schlep or stuff I have ordered but don’t want to chance missing before a trip, but need there. Still have to time it close, so MD would have to give a decent “heads up” on the shipping.
Dec 30, 2017
mattris
874
Dec 30, 2017
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Indeed. Why would anyone that enjoys music spend $700 on a great-sounding media player, DAC, amplifier, or pair of speakers/headphones? It's not like those pieces of gear last for years (or decades) and let you feel closer to the musical performance.
And who has patience to wait for nice things to arrive? To Walgreens, at once!
Dec 30, 2017
Asherjoh
12
Dec 31, 2017
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Some people appreciate refined sound and are willing to pay for it. I listen to music at my work 8 hours a day. My equipment is well used. But I will admit many people can't afford it.
Dec 31, 2017
ld100
178
Dec 31, 2017
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It is not about affording it. This model with different pads and cord selection can be purchased for less and without a long wait... For some it is worth it and for others like me I think it is overpriced for what it is...
Dec 31, 2017
s2kPanda
36
Dec 31, 2017
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Tell me where I can find it for less please? Last I check this model is only on Massdrop, in this specific colorway with these specific cords with different colored pads. If you're talking about buying a used Elear for 600 + 150-200 for the pads and not receiving the braided cords... you've already gone over the budget.
Dec 31, 2017
LucQc
211
Dec 31, 2017
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And you got to find a way to buy the pads .
Someone can tell me where I can buy the pads? Usually for me my search will bring something like that:
« Focal UTOPIA Soft Cushion Ear Pads (Pair) Be the first to review this item Price: $248.00 & FREE Shipping Only 5 left in stock - order soon.This item does not ship to Canada. Please check other sellers who may ship internationally. »
Dec 31, 2017
s2kPanda
36
Dec 31, 2017
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Right now clear pads don't exist I believe, at least I haven't seen any. Only the elear pads for 150 and the utopias for 250 on moon-audio.
Dec 31, 2017
LucQc
211
Dec 31, 2017
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So ordering at moon-audio for me means, $288.95 to this you must add 15% of taxes and have to pray I will not be charged additional Broker Fees. I'll have spent $ 330 US in the best case scenario.
That leaves me less than $ 400 for finding Elear on used market and an additional cord. Not an easy task to say the least.
Dec 31, 2017
mattris
874
Jan 1, 2018
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It's a shame that a relative few people own audio gear that provides refined sound. I suppose they think that it cost too much and/or is too complicated to use/set-up. Of course, we know this entirely the case. Many just don't know what products are available, how easy they are to use, and how much better their performances is compared to what products they're used to. I also find it strange how so many more people are willing to spend thousands of dollars on televisions... than on audio gear that heightens the experience of music (and movies, too). Spending more does not always yield better sound/build quality, but Beats - and other companies like Sony, JBL, and Bose - has tricked the masses with an abundance of celebrity-endorsed marketing.
(Edited)
Jan 1, 2018
Shyan
119
Jan 1, 2018
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...and I too find it strange that many people are willing to drop a lot of money on a piece of gear which they have not seen/heard of, especially for audio gears which can be perceived very differently by different people.
Not knocking MD or Focal of course as this platform allowed many an entry into quality gears at "more affordable" pricing...but one will just have to roll the dice and take a leap of faith, and see what happens
Jan 1, 2018
s2kPanda
36
Jan 1, 2018
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It's not really strange people spend thousands on televisions at all. People are heightened in the senses by what they can visually see, it's like why do we spend a thousand dollars on a a 34 inch 1440p ultrawide monitor when you can nowadays get a much larger 4K TV for less than 700 during sales. It's all about visual presence when that monitor has fluidity at 120/144hz vs the 4K TV running at 60hz while also having better color reproduction and expanded screen real-estate for gaming and then some people like to have $5000 OLED 4K screens because they can enjoy watching things they enjoy. Things are just visually more appealing compared to when we hear them.
On your other note about hi-fi, it does cost too much when a pair of headphones cost 1500-4000 dollars. You're right that refined sound does not cost an arm or a leg and Beats appeals to the masses because low end frequencies are more appealing to the target audience; in this case that's the EDM scene, fashion scene and younger kids who ask their parents to buy them Beats because their favorite celebrities have them. So it's not about tricking the masses, its more of giving them what they want. Kids are not going to buy a pair of HD650s or 6XX where they have to lug around wires, a nice dac and amp, a laptop and the fact that they aren't fashionable. Just food for thought. End random post lol.
Jan 1, 2018
s2kPanda
36
Jan 1, 2018
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I find it strange too. I almost bought into this drop til i dropped out a few hours ago. I literally read everything I could in forums about the Elear/Clear and read multiple reviews and watched video reviews of them. At the end, I figured that these may not be preferable to my ears simply because it's going to be 5 long months. I'll be listening to a different set of headphones which I have and already like the sound signature of and it's just the fact that I bought LCD2Cs and I thoroughly enjoy them that I really can't justify this purchase since there is no return policy if they end up just sounding dead to my ears.
Jan 1, 2018
BeyondMaxPower
200
Feb 17, 2018
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If you're going balanced to reduce interference, you clearly have no idea why balanced is used. Balanced becomes important over EXTREMELY long cable runs, like a concert. There's hundreds of cables, running on top of each other. What interference are you going to pick up from a 6' cable?
If balanced was so important, speakers would use it. Balanced wiring in headphones is stupid. The majority of amps under $1,000 aren't even truly balanced.
Balanced in Headphones is great for hard to drive headphones, like HE-6. 99% of headphones don't need the extra power. Balanced cabling in headphones is snake oil. The benefits balanced brings makes no difference. Exotic cables are snake oil.
Believe what you want, but I'll gladly take the hundreds of dollars I'm saving, to buy equipment that actually makes a difference. A $300 cable, for a $300 headphone like HD650, is idiotic (Sadly I see this a lot). Buy $600 headphones instead.
Feb 17, 2018
jefe32
145
Feb 17, 2018
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I am a single ended user and I approve of this message.
Feb 17, 2018
LucQc
211
Feb 17, 2018
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Let's put things in context. The subject of balanced connection was brought in this conversation like this.

« I guess before writing this you at least had the opportunity to do a listening session of Elear with an amp + DAC retailed at least 2 500 $ ?! »
Added this comment:
« So every type of shielding are achieving the same results regarding *** noise reduction *** ? Every type of connectors are achieving the same results as well.
A more expensive amp that comes with more expensive types of Input are achieving nothing better than let's say an Objective 2 amp?
Funnily part of the answer is in your comment?! lol 8;-)
You may say the improvement is Over-Rated. Pretending it « shouldn't change the sound at all » is another story.
If you had a basic Professional Training in Electrical or Electronic Engineering you would not write this