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BA0701
14
Nov 27, 2019
I have a question for those with the Focal Elex. As I mentioned in my day 1 impressions review, I just received these yesterday, and immediately found that they clip, badly. I cannot even run them off of my Fiio M11 Pro, alone much less with any amp I have, without watching the volume levels very closely. This is with both 3.5mm single ended, as well as a 4.4mm balanced cable. I know I have read others comments with the same issue, so what I am trying to assess is if these that I received are worse than normal (or possibly could be a quality control issue, where some have it and others don't), or if this behavior is pretty much occurring across the board. The more I have listened to them today, the more bothersome it is, what with different source files having been ripped with higher/lower levels or file codecs, or even recorded at different levels as well. Therefore every time I change albums I have to be cognizant as to where the volume is currently at, else the new song might open up with terrible popping. The surprising part is just how little power needs to be pushed through these, for the issue to happen, they are (as they sit right now) the most sensitive to power  headphones I own, power of any sort be it straight off of a DAP or through an amp. The power at which the clipping happens is by no means anything outrageous, and no higher than I would expect most Drop members to listen at, which is why I am wondering if mine may be the exception to the rule. Thanks in advance you any help you might provide!! **UPDATE** Still hoping others with more experience with these headphones, and this Drop might chime in, as I am really interested in knowing the possibility that I might be able to get a properly functioning pair through an exchange. However, after having done some research on this matter, I find the issue is more widespread than I initially thought, in fact it was being mentioned so much a little over a year ago, on some other forums, that Focal felt it necessary to publicly respond. Focal is claiming the clipping issue was a known variable when the Elex was designed, essentially giving it the old "it's a feature" treatment. The volume levels that the clipping is happening, for me, are by no means over the top, or anything earth shattering, and I can assure you it is well below my standard listening levels of literally every other set of headphones I have. I am also not listening to anything with punishing bass, either, just standard rock and some metal tracks, but certainly not teeth rattling levels of sub-bass such as dubstep and a few other like genres. In fact, the clipping is happening at such lower volume levels, that I initially believed it had to be something wrong with the pair I received. After looking into it a bit more, I am not so sure I believe that now. Thus, why I am hoping someone may be able to add some clarity to the matter, so I can try to understand the chances of getting a pair without this issue. Thanks again!!
(Edited)
Marlowe
143
Nov 27, 2019
BA0701First, by clipping I assume you are referring to the Elex drivers mechanically clipping, which many have reported; this usually appears to occur on tracks with extreme bass at high volume. Second, it is clear that terms like "loud" and "excessive volume" are very subjective. That said, I have used two different pairs of Elex over the last year (I returned the headphone twice when the stock balanced cable lost a channel) and have never experienced this issue at what I consider (with my now 66-year old ears) pretty loud volume. "Pretty loud volume" is here defined as listening at up to 12 o'clock on the balanced output of the THX 789 on gain 2. (My normal listening volume is around 10 o'clock on gain 2.) This also includes listening to a couple of tracks (at far beyond any volume range I would use in normal listening) that have produced clipping for many people. (The Dark Knight soundtrack and a recent Daft Punk album. It's been a while and I don't recall the precise tracks or points that people listened to, but a little research here and on Head-fi should readily find it. Neither album is my normal cup of tea. I never listen to hip hop or dance music, two bass driven genres that are likely to cause clipping. My listening is primarily many genres that would broadly be called rock or folk, including plenty of famously loud bands.) Thus, my impression (though always recalling my second point above) is that while mechanical clipping at high volume is intentional according to Focal, it does not occur at the same volume point on the same track on every Elex. This issue (and my, apparently common, problems with the stock cable) indicates that while the Elex appears well built with fairly premium materials at its price point, Focal's QC has to be somewhat suspect. So an exchange may well produce a pair without this issue, though (with intentional repetition) what constitutes loud or excessive volume is variable and subjective. Or in other words: YMMV.
(Edited)
BA0701
14
Nov 27, 2019
MarloweWell, unfortunately, in this instance, unless you to consider Tool No Quarter as having extreme bass, I don't believe that portion of your comment is relevant, or perhaps I simply could have stated as much in the OP. Perhaps others were listening to extreme bass tracks, and while my library includes some tracks that could be included in that group, sadly in this instance that is just not the case. Just as the volume portion, as well. While I have admitted to listening at loud volumes, louder than most and less loud than some others I would assume. However, I have been listening to headphones, and cranking the volume, since I got my first set in 1977, for my 10th birthday. My 52 year old ears are still performing perfectly well, with only a slight case of tinnitus that was caused by some near by exploding ordinance (a discussion for another day perhaps). I am also, following some testing yesterday and last night, able to pinpoint certain aspects of when this clipping occurs, and so far across numerous tracks all of which would be of the rock and metal genre, have taken place at between 62 and 74 on the volume control on my Fiio M11 Pro. To provide context, I normally listen around 100 to 105, and the volume control extends to 120. So, I stand by my original comments that this is happening at what most would definitely consider to be a reasonable volume, and most definitely nothing "extreme". I am glad your headphones have worked well, it is exactly what I was looking for, following my original comment. I was hoping that others would provide some context as to the frequency of my issue, so I might be able to evaluate the possibility of my receiving a non-clipping pair through an exchange, or at least a pair that begins clipping later than this current set does. The clipping I am referring to is a very loud, and absolutely noticeable regardless of whose ears it might be playing through, popping sound which is being caused by the over-extending of the drivers. The volumes this is happening at are entirely reasonable, not that I or anyone else owe anyone an explanation on our own listening preferences since we have established they are subjective, and unquantifiable as there are simply too many variables including the shape and functionality of one's own ears, but I digress. However, I am able to, simply, quantify the point in which this happens on the set I received. I would also suggest that while the clipping issue might not have been prevalent in the discussions and reviews that have taken place here, although it has been discussed, it has been discussed prevalently on other forums, such as this one that I found while researching the issue yesterday: https://www.head-fi.org/threads/massdrop-x-focal-elex-review-measurements.867615/page-46 The bottom line, I am not trying to convince others to dislike their own Elex, nothing of the sort. I am simply wanting to enjoy my own set, and the pair that I received has a horrible problem that is far worse than the cable issue, if for no other reason than that you can easily replace a cable. So, I am trying to find out if my chances of receiving a "good set" are high or if this issue happens frequently enough so as to lower those chances. Thanks for your response @Marlowe !! **EDIT** I also wanted to add that I do believe you are entirely correct, in that it appears, following some preliminary research, that Focal may well have some QC issues to work out. But will admit their response stating that the headphones are behaving exactly as intended, doesn't leave me warm and fuzzy feeling. I have over 20 pairs of headphones, the lowest end of which come in around $250, with only a couple of pairs coming in at that price point, and literally none of them behave like in this manner, not a single one. I can assure you they would not still be in my collection if they did, so while this is concerning, my hopes are that I will be able to exchange them for a fully functioning set, and we can all be happy and content again. Thank you again!!
(Edited)
jaydunndiddit
3262
Nov 27, 2019
BA0701Can you help us understand how loud you're listening? The way these Focals are built, you can push them into over excursion if you're hitting close to 120db in the lows. Also, with these cans, it's easier for them to get louder than you would think due to their dynamic swings. I have EQd my Elex and listen to trip and hip-hop with them as well as playing games and have never got them to clip. And I've had mine since launch. You may be listening louder than you think so I would try and get a gauge on your actual listening level and adjust as necessary and protect your hearing. Also, these are deceptively a bit harder to power than most think. So, with your unit, you could also be hearing clipping from you units amp being driven very hard. Which, with the resolution of the Elex, you can clearly pick up on for better or worse. If it was mechanical clipping, you'd know. It sounds different, but if you're at that point, pull back on the volume and all is fine.
(Edited)
jaydunndiddit
3262
Nov 27, 2019
BA0701I should also add, the Elex has a huge impedance spike in the low region well over 300 ohms. This is why many think the headphone itself is clipping when it's actually their amp. To get good controlled lows out of this unit, you'll want a pretty beefy amp. Kinda why folks talk about synergy with most Focals due to their impedance curves.
dcd564
5
Nov 27, 2019
jaydunndidditHey, I think you dropped something. Can everyone help me pick up all this knowledge?
BA0701
14
Nov 27, 2019
jaydunndidditThanks for the response. So, I have no way of measuring the SPL of these headphones, but do have a baseline, which someone with the same kit as myself might be able to appreciate. To this point, I have run the headphones straight off of a Fiio M11 Pro, using both 4.4mm balanced and 3.5mm SE connections. The problem still remains, and doubly so if you EQ at anything flat or above in the bass. I have not, to be fully honest, tried backing the bass down, as that would be counter to what my personal goals are for these headphones. When running directly off of the M11, I experienced the clipping at between 62 and 74 on the volume numbers, whereas my standard listening levels are typically between 100 and 105, depending on the source material, and the kit. I, usually, turn the volume up until one of two things happens, either the headphones begin to distort (different from the clipping happening here, any headphone will distort, but not a single pair of my other headphones clips the way this Elex does) at which time I back it down until the maximum volume is attained with the headphones being as crystal clear as they are at say 50 on the volume interface. If I am using an amp, then the second option would normally apply. I listen to my music as loud as the equipment will allow me, so long as the music remains clear. I have also used the Elex with an Oppo HA-SE2, from the same DAP, as well as using a Fiio A5 amp, while also using the same DAP. The problem exists with both amps as well, however I am unable to quantify the volume settings the issue is happening at, when using these amps, as there is no actual number associated with the volume control like there is on the DAP. Suffice it to say, it is well below my standard listening volumes as described above. I also have a Chord Mojo, but have been unable to use it with this DAP, as to do so requires a cable that I do not yet have, however one has been ordered and is on it's way. If your theory, that it might be the lack of power causing this issue, then the Mojo, once the cable arrives, should demonstrate that. If that proves to be the case, I can assure you nobody will be happier about that than I. I hope this answers your questions. Thank you for your response, I really do hope you are right.
(Edited)
jaydunndiddit
3262
Nov 27, 2019
BA0701Do you have a more powerful desktop unit by chance? Even the mojo doesn't output a ton of power over 300+ ohms where the Elex peaks in the lows around 50 hz. That, and their nominal impedance of about 100 ohms in general across the board with their sensitivity to the OI of devices leads to even more bloom in this region if it gets too high. Honestly, for the volume you want to listen at, you are more than likely going to need something beefier. Otherwise, backing off the volume for your more portable devices is the only option. I may be a bit biased here as I normally listen to the Elex with my desktop amps but you just might be hitting the ceiling for your portables for how loud you're trying to listen. If possible, I would try to sample your Elex on something more powerful just to rule out the amp and see if your unit is truly defective.
BA0701
14
Nov 27, 2019
jaydunndidditI do have a desktop amp, and I just tried that, issue is still there. It is the old Headroom Desktop amp, I bought it specifically for driving my Denon D7000. I know my equipment can drive everything I have beautifully, including Denon AH-D7000 and D2000, and AKG 701, in fact I have had over 100 sets of what some would consider high end headphones, and the only other time I experienced clipping on an equal scale, it was a blown speaker. Would certainly answer the questions at hand, if it did resolve this issue. If nothing I have is powerful enough to drive them, then I would have expected that being the subject of many more conversations, for sure. But, I just texted a neighbor who has a really nice desktop rig, going to take them over to his place later on this evening, and see how they run there. According to this post, too much power is what is causing the clipping, "One thing I would warn you of is that the Elex's drivers are a lot more efficient, and so you have to resist the urge to crank them up too high, or they will become overpowered and start to pop and cut out", which is exactly what I am experiencing. Since you mentioned the 300ohm rating, I was able to drive a pair of the original HD800 with my desktop amp, as well as on some older portable gear I used to have, just fine. Got plenty of volume, just not enough bass for my preferences.: https://drop.com/buy/massdrop-x-focal-elex-headphones/talk/2538771
(Edited)
jaydunndiddit
3262
Nov 27, 2019
BA0701Yeah, the issue is with the SPL getting too high in the lows. 120 dB is healthily loud on top of the high impedance in that region with the Focals resolution. If you're used to loudspeakers, you should know what I mean by over excursion. It's a pretty unique sound and once you hear it, you know. From what I could search on your current desktop amp, I can't find any hard or fast power ratings across the board. Despite what your other cans are capable of, the Focals are a bit odd due to their impedance and impulse due to their driver design. All the models can experience over excursion due to their inverted driver. Focal says its limited on purpose for when you're reaching an absurd SPL. So, of you're hitting that SPL in the lows and not the rest of the FR, you could perceive it as such, especially given the drivers are much better behaved elsewhere. I really only say this as I run my through tube amps and buffers with +12 dB in the lows and still don't experience any issues even though I listen fairly loud, considering. I own a bunch of other Focals and have sampled everything but the Stellia and Utopia and haven't experienced the issues people claim unless I take them off my head and crank the music to unlistenable levels and force them into the realm of over excursion. Hopefully, you can gain more insight from your neighbors amp and at worst, get your unit exchanged if it's truly faulty. Either way, hope you get it all sorted. They're a great set of cans otherwise and one of my tops still amongst all the stuff I own and have heard. They're uniquely Focal sounding.
BA0701
14
Nov 28, 2019
jaydunndidditOk, so first off, it is exactly that, excursion. It sounds like holes are being punched into the speaker itself. It is a really loud and nasty sounding POP, that almost sounds as if the speaker is bottoming out, as if the speaker is flopping around out of control. So, the results from my neighbor's house. He has a Sony amp, said he bought it about a year ago, give or take, and that he paid around $2500 for it, brand new. So, with the volume knob turned up, right around 40-45% of full volume, the clipping began. My neighbor could actually hear the sound outside of the headphones, while they were on my head. His eyes about popped out of his head the first time it happened. He agreed that it is not normal behavior, and that he had never heard that sound coming from a headphone before, but that he had heard it from both car speakers and large tower home speakers. Thank you very much for your insight, it has been very helpful. I believe that at this point, it would be prudent of me to exchange them for a new set, as opposed to getting a refund, and hope for the best. I really want this to work out, because they do sound really good, very balanced, before the clipping begins. So, I am not throwing in the towel just yet. So, wish me luck, and thank you very much, again, for all of your help!! BTW, just in case you were curious, this is my desktop amp. I bought it when the Denon D7000 first came out, as I bought both the D700 and the amp in the same purchase, I think it was somewhere in the ballpark of $1200 back then https://www.musicdirect.com/headphone-amp/headroom-desktop-portable-amp
(Edited)
BA0701
14
Dec 12, 2019
jaydunndidditHello again! Sorry for the delay. I believe, at least in my case of clipping, I might be on the track to resolving it. I have updated my review here, with everything I did: https://drop.com/buy/massdrop-x-focal-elex-headphones/reviews#reviews
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