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SStas
95
Jun 7, 2018
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Sorry for the (likely) silly question... They cans are SE drivers, correct? They are not balanced, and although they can be used with a balanced amp, will not be truly balanced? Thank you in advance. ~S
Jun 7, 2018
Redbaaron
231
Jun 13, 2018
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SStasCorrect
Jun 13, 2018
SStas
95
Jun 13, 2018
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RedbaaronI appreciate the response. any idea how to tell which are balanced and which arent, without opening them up? Not a lot of info online that i can find with regard to this topic....
Jun 13, 2018
Redbaaron
231
Jun 13, 2018
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SStasNot that I know of, except to use the work "balanced" in your search. :-/
Jun 13, 2018
SStas
95
Jun 13, 2018
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RedbaaronLol, ok. so, as far as I can tell, the Senns in the 6–, and above, the Hifiman in the 5–, and above, and the Audeze cans are all balanced, but are there any others that are? Sorry to take up your time with this, but Like I said either my Google-Fu is bad, or this seems to be inherant to peopl with more acumen than myself..
Jun 13, 2018
Redbaaron
231
Jun 13, 2018
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SStasI'm not experienced enough with other headphones to tell you, sorry. Here's the best list I could find with a couple minutes of my own Google-Fu: http://www.hifiheadphones.co.uk/headphones/balanced-headphones.html.
Jun 13, 2018
SStas
95
Jun 13, 2018
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RedbaaronOk. Awesome. Thats similar to what i have found, and I’m very grateful for your time with helping me. Thanks again!
Jun 13, 2018
Wingnutt
6
Jun 18, 2018
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SStasIf your headphone cable splits and connects separately to both right and left sides then the cans can be used balanced. You will have to buy a balanced cable for them and of course have a balanced amp. Periapt cables is a good choice for reasonablely priced cables.
https://periaptcables.com
Jun 18, 2018
SStas
95
Jun 18, 2018
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WingnuttThank you very much for your help and response. I have to admit, I am still a bit stuck on something...
This is where I am getting hung-up:
The HE-4xx have split cables, but the stock ones are mono plugs to both Left and Right channels (I believe). I have read in forums here and elsewhere that they will accept balanced cables, which are stereo plugs to the Right and Left channels (again, I believe). Although this will let me use the cans with a balanced amp, I have also read that the drivers need to be wired in a balanced configuration to truly be using them in a balanced set-up. I don't believe that the HE-4xx are wired for balanced, as compared to the HD650s, for example, but I am having a very tough time discerning from info online which cans are wired this way, and which ones are not.
This audio game can be such an education by fire at times...
Thanks again.
~S
Jun 18, 2018
Redbaaron
231
Jun 18, 2018
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SStasWhat you described is my understanding as well.
Jun 18, 2018
SStas
95
Jun 18, 2018
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Redbaaronon a side note, i just saw your post about the serial numbers, wire color, and paper on drivers.... Wtf?!?!... now I need to pop those thing open the minute I get home tonight... grrr.... lol
Jun 18, 2018
Redbaaron
231
Jun 19, 2018
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SStasHah! For the record, I don't think the paper made any audible difference.
Jun 19, 2018
SStas
95
Jun 19, 2018
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RedbaaronStill ghetto AF! Lol
Jun 19, 2018
Wingnutt
6
Jun 19, 2018
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SStasOK... All balanced means is each channel has its own ground. Single ended both channels share a ground. There is no balanced setting in the drivers. In order to have a fully balanced chain you will need a balanced DAC as well as a balanced amp. And a balanced cable of course. That is really all there is to it. Now you will pay alot more money to go balanced and honestly the improvement is small. (this statement may cause controversy lol) On another note about the HE4XX. It did not sound great out of the box. It needed more burn in time than any headphone I have ever owned. I ran it almost nonstop for the better part of a week checking it periodically. As time went on it opened up considerably. It now sounds very good, well worth the money. It also requires a fair amount of power to sound at its best. Of the amps I own I like it best out of my Emotiva Basx A100 (with the jumpers in). Hope this helps.
Jun 19, 2018
SStas
95
Jun 19, 2018
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WingnuttIt does, and I'm sorry to continue the discussion. I have been reading a lot..to no avail.
I have a spare balanced DAC (PS Audio Digital Link III) and 2 x NuForce HA200s ready to go, which is what is driving my quest for balanced cans.. I run a fully balanced HiFi at home, so these concepts are not entirely new to me, but I am still trying to understand how the HE4xx's can take a truly balanced signal through mono plugs.
lol... it's driving me crazy! Yes, they will each receive a signal and have a ground with the mono plug, but the inverted signal won't exist, or they would need a mini-stereo to each driver. At least this is how I understand it to be truly balanced, anyhow.
Again, sorry for the continued discussion. I'm sure you have beeter stuff to do, and music to listen to, but like I said it is driving me bonkers, so I really appreciate it.
Scott.
Jun 19, 2018
Wingnutt
6
Jun 20, 2018
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SStasOK.. Didn't realize you were trying to do a dual monoblock setup. This changes things slightly as you will need a balanced headphone cable with 2 3pin connectors for your amps. Not sure exactly where you can find one but they're out there. Google it. I found this article on your amps that I think will explain what you need to do easier than I can.
https://www.innerfidelity.com/content/nuforce-ha-200dual-mono-madness
It goes into alot of detail in the evaluation of the setup after explaining the setup which is fairly straight forward. Personally I think it would be a bit extravagant for a HE4XX, but if you already have the gear then why not. Hope this helps. Enjoy.
Jun 20, 2018
SStas
95
Jun 20, 2018
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WingnuttThank you again.
Jun 20, 2018
SStas
95
Jun 20, 2018
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WingnuttThe cable won't be an issue, as I can get one from Cardas, or a few other custom places, built in a truly balanced 2 x stereo mini -> 2 x 3 pin XLR. I just didn't want to drop a few hundred bucks if the cans wouldn't take them :) Could use that money as a down payment on some Audeze LCD2s or some T1s, which I know (think I know, anyhow) are balanced. The HA-200s might be one of the most affordable ways that I have found to get balanced headphone amplifications, and that's why I am dying to fire them up. A set of two was less than $500 USD, so compared to the Bryston rig I was looking at last night in the hifi shop, that's quite the steal... :)
Anyhow, thanks again for the help. The MD community has never let me down to date.
S.
Jun 20, 2018
Wingnutt
6
Jun 20, 2018
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SStasYour welcome.... Good luck
Jun 20, 2018
VBar
46
Jun 24, 2018
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SStasHi, it seems you and some other's here have some misunderstanding. There is no 'Balanced Headphone Driver' technology. Every headphone that accepts separate 2-pole connections to each ear can be used with a 4-pole balanced cable along with a balanced source to create a balanced audio chain. The balanced cable configuration with inverted signal (3-pole) is only used between DACs, amps and powered monitors, most of the time to compensate for signal deterioration in long cable-runs and sometimes to reduce cross-talk distortions. Such a cable configuration will need a powered summation circuit at the receiving end. I don't know if any normal consumer-grade headphones are using that technology (I am not really familiar with electrostatic headphone tech, so I am not sure about those).
Also, stereo means separate channels for left and right ear, ie. one mono channel per ear. There is no point in giving stereo signals to each ear. Also, normal stereo audio (the commonly used) has only two channels, so that puts you in a pickle even if you want to do that for some reason.
Jun 24, 2018
SStas
95
Jun 25, 2018
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VBar:) I understand the definition of mono and stereo, but thanks for clarifying. In the example described above with 2 x 3 pin XLR amp terminations, how does a mono plug at the headphone end carry a ground? That kind of defeats the purpose of a balanced set-up with a 3-pin XLR signal, doesn't it? I think this conversation is a bit unique to dual 3 pin XLR-out amplifiers, and not the much more common 4 pin XLR, which I would understand completely using mono-mini plugs at the headphones. Maybe these questions are more cable-construction related, but I am just trying to understand for myself. I tested very quickly balanced cables with mono and stereo terminations, and the HE-400i took either one and returned music, so this isn't a matter of whether is works or not, but rather the mechanics of the design.
Thanks,
S.
Jun 25, 2018
VBar
46
Jun 25, 2018
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SStasAt the headphone end, each can is fed the signal and ground. Inverted signal (V-) is not used in a headphone. That is why a 4-pin XLR or TRRS connectors are used for them. The inverted signal is used only when connecting between amps, DACs and powered monitors. Some of what you are saying is true, the connection from amp to headphone is not truly balanced. But, the grounds being separate, cross-talk distortions are effectively eliminated. Other than the cable part, that is essentially the same inside the amp also as most balanced amps are dual-mono designs. The quad-mono amp design is usually only found in the output stage of a balanced DAC.
Also, you don't have to worry too much about the headphone cable picking up electrical distortions. If you have an interference signal strong enough to affect a pair (twisted? two pairs?) of signal and ground, between the front of a device and your head, you should be more worried about your health than the sound quality.
Jun 25, 2018
SStas
95
Jun 25, 2018
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VBarHaha...! Fair enough...
I mean, what's the point of using 2 x 3 pin XLR-out then? That part is still weird to me.
S.
Jun 25, 2018
SStas
95
Jun 25, 2018
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VBarAlso, why do some very high end cans use two mini-3 pin XLR connections at the headphone termination? This may be part of where my original confusion about "balanced cans" came from.
Jun 25, 2018
SStas
95
Jun 25, 2018
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VBarThis seems to answer my question actually. Sorry for all the posts...
http://www.diyaudioblog.com/2016/02/headphone-connectors-pins-pinouts-for.html
S.
Jun 25, 2018
VBar
46
Jun 26, 2018
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SStasNice find. I clipped it immediately :)
Jun 26, 2018
SStas
95
Jun 26, 2018
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VBarIt still seems a bit useless to use dual 3 pins... haha. All this over that design choice by headroom (blockhead, for example)... maybe there was no 4-pin back then, idk..
Jun 26, 2018
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