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LevelSteam
May 6, 2017
I'm this has probably already been answered somewhere but to avoid sifting through hundreds of comments I'll just ask-
On the input club site it mentioned Cherry MX Clears as a possible switch option for this board. Since Cherry currently doesn't make RGB compatible Clears with transparent housing, will this still be an option, and if so will they be moded in a way that makes them RGB compatible?
jkaos92
532
May 6, 2017
LevelSteamCommenting only to see the answer, but i believe that they changed mind on Cherry switches. Also yes, cherry clear are only black so no RGB from SMD without the clear housing
LevelSteamThe only switches available by default will be the Kailh brand switches (and our custom switches) Cherry clears wont work on this board with the lighting. If that is no issue for you and you just want the underlighting and turn off the key lights then you can use cherry clears.
LevelSteam
May 6, 2017
OverKillGotcha, I was hoping for some sort of custom switch lile Zealios. Kailh switches honestly seem like a subpar choice compared to a something like Gaterons, which seem to be a community favorite. In any case, I'm sure you guys will still sell a TON of these boards as they're pretty amazing. Thanks again for bringing this to Massdrop. :)
LevelSteamAfter reviewing more then a hundred switches using our switch tester (https://input.club/the-problem-with-mechanical-switch-reviews/) we decided that Kaihua (the people who make Kailh) had the best switches out of all of the possible choices. We know how much people think Kailh switches are bad but the fact is, Kailh have better QC and better switches then what is currently popular in the enthusiast community. In our opinion, Kaihua switches ARE the best switches which is why we went with them for this keyboard. You may also find our switch comparison guide interesting as well: https://input.club/the-comparative-guide-to-mechanical-switches/
LevelSteam
May 6, 2017
OverKillSorry if that came off as hostile. All I meant was that I was surprised you guys decided to use Kailh switches when -as you said- they're not as popular in the enthusiast community, which seems to be who this board is aimed at. Regardless of their overall quality, how people perceive them is an important part of how they'll sell. But then again, if you're going with an unpopular switch due to its actual reliability rather than a popular but less reliable variant, you won't have to deal with as many support tickets post-sale either.
LevelSteamNo worries you weren't hostile. I wanted to explain our decision since I know it is a common complaint :) reliability isn't the issue either, though since even if we used an unreliable switch you can just change it out any time. We picked the switches that had the best curves and smoothness according to our objective testing method.
GBH2
27
May 7, 2017
LevelSteamI felt the same surprise at hearing about Kailh switches being chosen for the K-Type when I first heard a few weeks ago. I have since completely changed my mind. I have Kailh Blue, Brown, Copper and Gold here now. I find the Kailh Blue and Brown to be objectively better than their Cherry and Gatteron counterparts - better as far as being smoother, less wobbly and having an excellent force curve to activation point. I also prefer the Kailh switches subjectively over the Cherry and Gatteron switches. IMHO, I found the Gold (Tactile-Clicky) and the Copper (Tactile) to be another step above that. Furthermore, I didn't find any of the Zealios (62g to 78g) to be an improvement upon the Kailh Brown or Copper switches.
I think the more people try the Kailh switches the more people will come to see the wisdom of the choice. Any outliers who absolutely hate them can always easily swap them out later.
tl:dr - Kailh switches are very good!
Clickittyclack
60
May 7, 2017
GBH2I got a sample switch set recently in preparation of swapping springs and was testing blues in their various iterations, and found the same thing: the Kalih switches were (ovjectively) the best out of the bunch. This was contrary to everything I've heard about them so I went to the internet's for more info.
Everything was negative, except one semi-recent keyboard review in YouTube, which mentioned they have been improving the quality of their switches in newer batches. Your comments and that video helped confirm I'm not losing it, and I'm going to pull the trigger for a build I'm working on. Yes, they are pretty damn good!
LevelSteam
May 7, 2017
ClickittyclackI'll have to pick up some myself too. I did look into them though and their tactile clicky switches that use a metal bar rather than a slider are very interesting to me.
nickaa827
289
May 7, 2017
OverKillWow, that's really cool that you guys put the effort into finding the best switch. While it's surprising to me that it was Kailh, I still fully support your decision to include them, especially when it sounds like you guys so much time and effort into testing and making sure it truly was the best option.
Clickittyclack
60
May 7, 2017
nickaa827For me this all began because of my families history of arthritis. A little difference in a switch compounded over 10 hours a day (for the foreseeable future) will make an enormous difference I'm my ability to keep working among other things. The fortunate side is we live in a time where all these options exist, and it's an awesome hobby!
For linear I prefer Gateron, and I do love my Topre switches.
jkaos92
532
May 7, 2017
OverKill>"Kailh have better QC and better switches then what is currently popular in the enthusiast community"
May you explain what you mean with better quality control? Did you guys tested it over time, for example with a machine that press the key milion times?
nickaa827
289
May 8, 2017
ClickittyclackMhmm, I've heard great things about both of those :) Glad to hear such good news. Do you mind me asking if you know much about the Gateron tactiles/clickies? I'm interested in maybe buying Gateron blues but I would like some personal feedback from people that have owned them.
LevelSteam
May 8, 2017
nickaa827I've owned Gateron Blues and they seem somewhat inconsistent when it comes to the actuation point/click. Personally I'd recommend Cherry Blues or, going by this discussion, Kailh Blues over Gateron. Their linear switches are really nice though.
nickaa827
289
May 8, 2017
LevelSteamAppreciate it. Thanks for the feedback
Clickittyclack
60
May 8, 2017
nickaa827To add on to LevelSteam: cherry and gateron are both fine on their own, but you'll notice some differences if you line them up next to each other or use one for a while and switch to another.
I think the biggest thing you'll notice is that the cherry switches feel kind of scratchy in comparison, and the way the key actuate feels different. I'll try to explain The second point, but keep in mind that this is all subjective...
The cherry switches basically have two steps when you press down on it. When you press a key, it will drop down a bit with almost no pressure, then there's the click and avkind of a release (this is the actuation point) and the key will bottom out quickly after that. You won't notice this when you're typing but if you press it down slowly you'll feel it, and if you open up the switch you'll see that it's the way it's designed.
Gateron switches also have this step before the actuation point, but there's additional resistance when you first press down so the change in force required is not as erratic. It jury feels more natural, and you don't feel like there's metal scraping metal like with the Cherry switch. It feels smoother, almost buttery in comparison.
That being said...
I still prefer Cherry tactical switches over Gateron. The smooth buttery feel is great on linear switches, but for the clicky switches Cherry just feels right. That might be because I'm used to Cherry switches, but I'm looking for something else so it's fair to say I'm not in love with either.
The Kailh switches are somewhere in the middle of the two. In the end they're both good and the differences are not overly noticeable. It ultimately it comes down to preference. One thing I would suggest is to look up typing videos - if you listen closely you can really hear the difference. Hopefully that helps, good luck!
OracleKev
245
May 8, 2017
jkaos92With IC folks vouching for Kailh, I'd gladly give benefit of doubt. Especially when "lightpipe" feature seems well matched for this keyboard's design. Can someone elaborate on the QC claim? I think this matters given Kailh's reputations. Samples and production switches seem to vary a lot these days (this is for all manufacturer).
OracleKev
245
May 8, 2017
ClickittyclackI found this informative and balanced, thanks!
To be honest, I found earlier comments by some folks off-putting. "Kailh sucks.." or "Kailhs are the best..." They both sound gibberish. There are so many subjective elements to this, and some objective criteria on very small sample is just a data point. I think it's better to put data and hypothesis forth, and let people make their own choices. Swappable switch design goes a mile for that and I appreciate that.
ignitionigel
1
May 8, 2017
GBH2I purchased a mech switch tester and gave the wife a blind test, she liked the CherryMX, Gateron and Kaihl Blues, with the Kailh being her favourite. Both of us like the Kailh and Gateron switches better, which amused me.
travdump
237
May 8, 2017
OracleKevKailh's bad reputation seems to come from OEMs screwing up keyboards. The cheap keyboards that Kailh used to be common on were quite poorly manufactured, and often a switch failing would be om the board or controller's side, not the switch itself. Combine that with a partnership with Razer and you have a recipe to be hated.
ClickittyclackFyi Cherry has new molds and they are extremely smooth again.
travdumpThis is spot on.
travdump
237
May 8, 2017
livingspeedbumpThe partnership with Razer alone is enough to be hated, what with their high prices, low quality, and zero quality control standards.
travdump
237
May 8, 2017
livingspeedbumpAlso, I keep seeing things about the new molds, but no in-depth info. Have you gotten to try them out yet?
LevelSteam
May 8, 2017
travdumpI wouldn't judge Kaihl based on that though. Razer is the company that sets the prices, and they're also ok with sub-par quality switches. It could very well be that Razer is taking switches Kailh would otherwise say haven't passed QC in order to save on costs.
In any case this will be an excellent opportunity for Kailh to demonstrate the quality of their product.
travdumpYes I have tried them
GBH2
27
May 8, 2017
ignitionigelYes, it can be quite illuminating to do a blind test. I gathered up a pile of switches and did a blind test on myself and I had many of my preconceptions shattered. I fully expected the Kailh switches to be my least favorites and instead they all came out amongst my top picks.
jkaos92
532
May 9, 2017
OracleKevI would really like an elaboration on the QC claim too. I mean, on the K-Type i see Kailh hotswap sockets (probably the only company producing it right now) and later i see Kailh switches. As an external person and as someone that always considered Kailh the worse in the trio Gateron-Cherry-Kailh, if there are no proofs of this statement i can easily think:
>"They just had a good price for switch + sockets from kailh, so now they are telling people that kailh are good"
I even saw their page with kailh graphs, but nothing obvious showed high-higher QC, also that comparison based on new Kailh switched popped out when they probably already planned to use kailh switches (graph popped out recently), so i don't know, i'm not saying "they are lying", but i would really like to understand why Kailh are better in their opinion (and they can be totally right on this, who knows...)

Also, a real quality test should include a long-term use, aka a machine that press the switch repeatedly to see how the switch behaves after millions of pressures.
I hope that @OverKill can elaborate a bit on it and tell us why they find Kailh the "best switches" (over the graph they already showed to us that honestly did not proved it, at least to me)
jkaos92The Kailh sockets are brand new, and WORLDS better than the holtities used in most boards. They are rated for nearly 2x the usage as well.
So what makes a switch good? Feel and longevity/durability?
Feel is entirely subjective, of course, but what I can say is that in a blind test I did at the last meetup I was at I called some of the newest Kailh brown switches "tuned clears" on the stock card describing the board, and people were very fond of them. I don't think I heard a single complaint about them. The actuation is very smooth, the feeling of the switches was totally consistent across the board, and the tactile bump was more pronounced than the Cherry Browns.
This alone tells me a HUGE issue here is just peoples preconceived ideas or assumptions about Kailh switches. Some days, frankly, I'm shocked Gateron gets the praise they do from the community. They are SO inconsistent between batches (especially with weight). They are very smooth, but at this point the new Cherry MX and Kailh switches are comparably smooth.
Now, a lot of the complains coming from people having "failing switches" with older Kailh was not actually the switch itself failing, it was the boards they were in. And we all know who is most known for using Kailh, Razer. I have had pretty much every Razer out there, and will say they easily have the highest failure rate of any keyboard brand I've used yet. Out of 8 Razer boards I have, 3 don't work after VERY moderate use. In two of the cases some switches weren't working, but it was actually PCB issues causing the malfunction, not a failed switch. End of the day, switches can fail, but it is extremely rare. I can count the number of failed MX switches I've had on a single hand, from all brands combined. And those that failed chattered. Half were Zealios from the first round at that.
The light pipes are awesome as well, and are something nobody else currently has. Check out this picture from my coming review showing how much better/more even the light pipe switches distribute the light from the SMD LEDS:
search
L to R: Light Pipe Kailh, Kailh w/ Normal RGB Housing, Kailh w/ standard housing, Light Pipe
Kailh switches do have a different style housing, so you cant mix/match housings from other MX variants, which could be a downside to some.
I adamantly think the hatred of Kailh is unwarranted, especially for the new switches at this point. Frankly, the majority of folks commenting on them haven't even tried the new ones out yet. Really the biggest determining factor on if they are "good" or not is simply feel here, and to make that judgement call you really have to test them for yourself. Personally I think if you put your assumptions aside and really test them with an open mind most will enjoy them equally with any other MX variant at this point.
jkaos92I'll try to answer this without having to turn this into a massive report.
The tl;dr is consistency. Gateron has *terrible* consistency and Cherry has ancient and gritty tooling.
You will have switches that measure very differently even within the same batch. Even the well regarded Zealios switches (which are quite good, and imo the best things that Gateron produces, much thanks to Zeal), have issues between batches. This points to some combination of tooling, plastic choice and melting profile that they can't keep consistent for some reason. Gateron doesn't even have proper part numbers for all of their switches. They basically just yolo them and hope people buy them. Most of the Chinese market is very confused that the US (and EU) prefer them. Many keyboard factories in China won't even use them due to QC issues (Input Club and Massdrop have talked with most of them). Some Gateron switches use non-heat resistant plastics in combination with cheaper contacts. This the plastic to be warped by the soldering process, causing the electrical contacts to spread apart unevenly. Basically this would result in brand new Gateron switches becoming chatty and requiring significantly more debounce than the standard sub 5 ms. To give you an example, take this graph of a Gateron Red -> https://plot.ly/~haata/150/gateron-red/ Go and click on the legends for the different presses. You'll notice that each press is very different near the end of the press. That's pretty unacceptable imo. Not only should each switch be consistent with each other, but they should also be consistent between presses as well. And, while I can go measure hundreds of switches for you. This switch passed Gateron QC, this means it was deemed OK. And this is not OK. That is the problem with Gateron. Not that the switches can be quite good, but that they can also be bad and inconsistent.
Cherry on the other hand has been using the same tooling for a very long time and are running into the issues Unicomp has with their tooling. Burrs. Ever wonder why some Cherry switches have a wear-in period? Switches are molded, not sanded or machined. A wear-in is just Cherry being cheap and lazy with their tooling. A side note about Cherry. Until very recently, Cherry has been very very difficult to source. In the early days, Massdrop had to do very interesting things so source them at all, and it's always been hard to get the quantity they've needed without ordering a year in advance... Cherry has changed though. I've started seeing them trying to help the enthusiast market, so perhaps this will start to get better (maybe even fix their tooling too :D). https://flic.kr/p/UDCfVX Here's a microscope photo. The surface should be shiny and smooth, instead we have all these indents caused by slow damage to the tooling (or poor milling of the tooling).
I'm not sure it's well known but Greetech, Gateron and Kaihua (Kailh) all make switches for Razor. Basically they're just doing what any behemoth is does and sources from multiple factories. So while the tooling may be the same, the process and QC may not.
Now, before I go more into Kaihua, I will say that I really like competition in the switch space. Having more companies than just Cherry is the reason that Cherry is even doing anything mildly interesting with their switches now. Keyboards (and switches) are truly a personal preference thing and for enthusiasts in general a "perfect switch" just does not exist, period. In my own designs I try to balance taking excellent ideas from a variety of switch manufacturers in combination with trade-offs and limitations of my manufacturing partners. Because even if you design an amazing switch, if you can source or make them, it's meaningless at the end of the day.
I will be the first to admit, that I was very skeptical of Kaihua. The original K-Type prototypes, back in January 2016 used Greetech switches (which are probably one of the more interesting switches, but they do have a few QC concerns as well) as they provided a much more tactile experience than other switches available (for example https://plot.ly/~haata/113/greetech-brown/ notice how high the tactile peak is). I first tried Kaihua switches back in early 2014, and tbh, they were awful. When one of my colleagues in the keyboard space asked them why they didn't just clone Cherry, they had an interesting response. Their goal was to make a more reliable Cherry-type switch. This is why you see 70 million keypresses for Kailh switches and around 50 million for everyone else. Oh and Kaihua really does test their springs to 70 million keypresses (they're doing just that for our custom switch). Selecting the default switch types in a keyboard is a question of trade-offs. And really, it came down to Kailh coming out on top. * Easy to source * Good force curve and very similar to Cherry MX * Actual light pipe (one of the upcoming reviews is going to have a real lighting comparison) * Consistent and excellent QC
Now the story doesn't just end there. In terms of keyboard switch factories Massdrop went to visit the Kaihua factory and were extremely impressed with how clean their factory was. Now this might not sound like much, but this is one of the key components to consistency and quality. Yes, you *can* make excellent things in a dirty factory, but it's definitely a lot harder. If it wasn't for Kaihua we wouldn't even be able to use the (pretty amazing) hotswap inserts. They've also taken a chance on me doing non-standard things with the upcoming custom switch (definitely pushing the limits of what you can do with Cherry style switches).
LevelSteam
May 9, 2017
livingspeedbumpThis was a really interesting post to consider. I'm definitely ordering some Kailh Browns if they're similar to but smother than MX Clears as you've said.
Admittedly much of my personal skepticism of Kailh switches stems from their partnership with Razer and Razer's notoriously unreliable mechs (as you described). I suppose it couldn't hurt to give them another try, especially when this is a hot-swappable board.
jkaos92
532
May 9, 2017
livingspeedbumpThanks for the feedback, for the first part, i wasn't talking about KAILH SOCKETS, i was talking about new Kailh switches, that are considered the best switch for input-club, Kailh sockets must clearly be better than holtites, holtites are not born for making keyboards hotswappable while Kailh sockets are born for this.
For switches, yeah i wanted to put my assumptions aside, i didn't started this conversation with a square mind, I just wanted some more infos on them (i believe that many other people want more infos on these new kailh too, without having to test them, even if testing it is a good way to judge). I was talking about an objective test, not based on how they feel. For example the pic you showed above is a nice start of "proofs" I was talking about and damn it seems good!
Also, for old Kailh, i don't believe they were good, i don't want to say "i tested it and it was bad" because my opinion will be based on a super small sample, not accurate. But if i remember correctly, even Input Club, before picking the NEW kailh as switch for the k-type, it wasn't talking very well about the old kailh. I now see the page edited so i can't remember exactly what it was wrote, but i remember that i spent hours on these pages and Kailh in general was the less liked.
Basically, i'm asking , "Hey Input-Club, you stated something big by saying that Kailh is in your opinions the best switch, i would like to know more since you are going to sell these switches on the k-type as stock switches, can you tell us more and give us some proofs of what you stated to convince us? (since we are used to not trust Kailh switches)"
You, @livingspeedbump, started a good point tho, with at least your opinion and a pic, i was expecting something bigger in this direction from Input-Club, to help us to get convinced that Kailh is in fact a good switch.
akryl9296
7
May 9, 2017
HaaTaThanks for explaining, I will trust your experience go with the Kaihua switches for this drop =)
jkaos92
532
May 9, 2017
HaaTaWell, it is really satisfactory to get an answer from @HaaTa himself. I've read the whole thing twice, to be sure i didn't miss anything, you basically answered and solved many of my doubts on the Kailh switches, mostly because i trust Haata words , but also because it was pretty detailed in many aspects and because i'm open to changes! I must say, you convinced me, i will have to test it of course, but on a blind test you got me!
If I can i would like to ask other 3 questions related to this:
1) Why the Kailh does not use the common switch open mechanism? This is not a problem on hotswappable keyboards, but is a problem on non-hotswappable keyboards! Also, it was a pain to open a Kailh :D 2) I read many times that Cherry has new molds for switches and seems like you confirmed it, you know how to recognize these new Cherry batches or where to buy new Cherrys? Also, are Cherry Silent/speed/natural white or in general rgb version a safe bet if you want to get the new-mold Cherry? 3) I'm sorry but i have to ask, i'm hyped for the new switch made by you and you just said that this will happen thanks to Kailh. It will be possible to buy the Haata switch without purchasing the K-type or will be only possible to bundle it with the K-Type? Also, when will be announced?
And a last thing, thanks for the time you dedicated to answer to me with that wall of text, i really appreciated it and hope it will be useful to many other people here! I was really hoping in a detailed explanation like this. Thanks again Haata / InputClub :)
PS: Seems like i will have to edit my profile picture soon. Damn.
jkaos92Honestly, in the same vein that I don't want people thinking Kailh is crap without trying them, I don't want people assuming they are awesome without trying them either. My main point is simply to give these switches a fair try with an open mind, and disregard any prejudice or assumptions based on their past switches going into this! Don't just take my word for it, try it out for yourself and decide because your opinion is just as valid as mine.
OracleKev
245
May 9, 2017
HaaTaHaata, livingspeedbump, thanks for detailed responses. They explain many things. In particular, it matches with what appears to be common practice while building customs with Gateron--test & weed out inconsistent switches. I do have lingering concern that quality problems may creep in for Kailh. After all, they sinned before and switchover may not be straightforward. My educated guess is due to complexity of their operation, Chinese switch manufacturers have "elastic" QC. If motivation/nudge is there, no problem. If left in their own devices, entropy creeps in. Things seem aligned in right way--Kaihua wanting to prove themselves, you guys staying on top of things--, so in most likely, this will turn out to be just paranoia. In any case, competition in switch space is very good thing, so fingers crossed that this works out!
OracleKevNothing wrong with being cautious, and I obviously can't speak for the future, but I'm very optimistic about their newest switches being better than some others already on the market.
Adori
12
May 13, 2017
travdumpThere's also the subconcious bias and association people have with "German Engineering" vs "Chinese Knockoff" being parroted everywhere.
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