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MechChia
85
Nov 2, 2017
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@MiTo So if I want Gaijin with text mod I will have to purchase Gaijin + Cyberdeck? That way I will end up with 2 alpha set with 1 modifier!
I prefer how you did the drop for the Canvas set where the alpha and modifiers are 2 different kits so people can mix and match. Please consider.
MiTo
13955
MiTo
Nov 2, 2017
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MechChiaThank you very much for voicing your concern, but don't think I haven't thought about that!
Offering kits like you suggested resulted in a price so astronomically high... The manufacturer we are using for Laser GMK is not the same as Canvas/Godspeed ones and their production capabilities and methods are completely different. It's cheaper to end with 2 Alphas set and 1 set of Modifiers than 1 Alphas set and 1 Modifiers because of how the manufacturer price their kits. The best possible deal is what you see in the drop page, we worked on that for almost an entire year. Hope you understand and thanks a lot for the interest!
Offering kits like you suggested resulted in a price so astronomically high... The manufacturer we are using for Laser GMK is not the same as Canvas/Godspeed ones and their production capabilities and methods are completely different. It's cheaper to end with 2 Alphas set and 1 set of Modifiers than 1 Alphas set and 1 Modifiers because of how the manufacturer price their kits. The best possible deal is what you see in the drop page, we worked on that for almost an entire year. Hope you understand and thanks a lot for the interest!
MechChia
85
Nov 2, 2017
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MiToI am less concern about the cost but more concern about wastage and storage. Buying the kit knowing that 70% of them will immediately go to my hidden storage (of guilt) kinda hurt me. Don't get my wrong, the Cyberdeck alpha are great too, just that knowing that I would definitely buy the Gaijin set means that no matter what, one of the alpha will be underutilized. Not sure if anyone would agree but I would prefer to pay more (cost per key) for less (less keys but majority utilize) than to pay less for more.
Anyway I am probably still going to get a set or Gajin + Cyberdeck. Might be a good time to pick up Japanese during the wait.
Anyway I am probably still going to get a set or Gajin + Cyberdeck. Might be a good time to pick up Japanese during the wait.
schoolbus
1292
Nov 2, 2017
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MechChiaNobody would agree with you, nobody wants to pay more.
MechChia
85
Nov 2, 2017
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schoolbusI think you misunderstood what I meant. I mean I rather pay $80 for a set with 60 keys that I can use than pay $100 for 100 keys but only use 60 keys and let the other 40 sit somewhere. Anyone that disagree probably failed at common sense. I respect your comment but don’t drag everyone into the same boat as you. Give them a chance to think and decide since you seems to not have the time or cognitive skills for that.
@jrjr2 I am actually trying to save as much trouble as I can as it takes effort to toss the extras into the bin. But since you mention it. I will get the waste collector to deliver my burned waste to your place and hope you die of fume poisoning. Knowing that these are plastic and will probably be just trash when I die while trying to reduce the impact I caused to the beautiful Earth is posturing(postering literally means putting up poster)? You probably just ordered triple portion of food, eat what you like and toss 2.5 portion of it away every meal. Living in heaven eh?!
@jrjr2 I am actually trying to save as much trouble as I can as it takes effort to toss the extras into the bin. But since you mention it. I will get the waste collector to deliver my burned waste to your place and hope you die of fume poisoning. Knowing that these are plastic and will probably be just trash when I die while trying to reduce the impact I caused to the beautiful Earth is posturing(postering literally means putting up poster)? You probably just ordered triple portion of food, eat what you like and toss 2.5 portion of it away every meal. Living in heaven eh?!
MechChia
85
Nov 2, 2017
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jrjr2I think you are not catching the point in my first post when I said " alpha and modifiers are 2 different kits " which means "SPLITTING" them and not "REDUCING" them.
Have you even looked at the Mito Canvas set that I mention as an example? It have 2 MAIN ALPHAS set and 2 MAIN MODIFIERS set. So you can choose what alpha and what modifier you want and match them so no matter what you go for you will can end up with any set of combo you want to order. Right now as an example, if someone wants both Gaijin and Kobe(I am sure there are) while wanting to fill more than a 60%(future-proof) needs to get 2 Cyberdeck. Which means 4 ALPHAS and 2 MODIFIERs. And as Mito reply GMK being reluctant to offer a good price to split the base sets means that the whole world will be filled with extra ALPHA set without any MODIFIER to go with. And right now you may think in your tiny brain "people can still match them with other GMK modifiers!", but that would mean that there will be the extra alpha of whatever modifier people match with! Come on, admit it, most of these will just be sitting there waiting to be burnt to ash one day.
While this is mainly GMK problem(being German reluctant to changes), I am trying to let Mito know (politely, unlike you) that he might be able to make a change. If you think all these waste reduction effort is worthless, do you also imply having policeman around while crime still happening makes a policeman redundant? While having doctors around but you will inevitable die means there is no point in having such a profession?
And me being reasonable is by replying a rude, stupid and idiotic comment with an even ruder comment with informative content. And that is also me, being nice.
EDIT: In addition, closing your eyes to what is in fact happening (global warming) does not means it is not happening. And I know your tiny brain is now thinking "Buy you are buying it too! You are causing as much damage". Yes in fact I am. However, I always avoid extra kits like the spacebar and stuffs knowing I will only use one of the many in a pack and also sticking to standard layout to avoid needing additional pack. Knowing that there is no way I am gonna avoid getting that "extra" Alpha in the Cyberdeck kit could change my mind about not getting the Gaijin even if I wanted it badly. Everyone is free to do what they want, but I would, as much as I could, wish to avoid possibly hurting someone (in the future) over my own happiness and enjoyment.
Have you even looked at the Mito Canvas set that I mention as an example? It have 2 MAIN ALPHAS set and 2 MAIN MODIFIERS set. So you can choose what alpha and what modifier you want and match them so no matter what you go for you will can end up with any set of combo you want to order. Right now as an example, if someone wants both Gaijin and Kobe(I am sure there are) while wanting to fill more than a 60%(future-proof) needs to get 2 Cyberdeck. Which means 4 ALPHAS and 2 MODIFIERs. And as Mito reply GMK being reluctant to offer a good price to split the base sets means that the whole world will be filled with extra ALPHA set without any MODIFIER to go with. And right now you may think in your tiny brain "people can still match them with other GMK modifiers!", but that would mean that there will be the extra alpha of whatever modifier people match with! Come on, admit it, most of these will just be sitting there waiting to be burnt to ash one day.
While this is mainly GMK problem(being German reluctant to changes), I am trying to let Mito know (politely, unlike you) that he might be able to make a change. If you think all these waste reduction effort is worthless, do you also imply having policeman around while crime still happening makes a policeman redundant? While having doctors around but you will inevitable die means there is no point in having such a profession?
And me being reasonable is by replying a rude, stupid and idiotic comment with an even ruder comment with informative content. And that is also me, being nice.
EDIT: In addition, closing your eyes to what is in fact happening (global warming) does not means it is not happening. And I know your tiny brain is now thinking "Buy you are buying it too! You are causing as much damage". Yes in fact I am. However, I always avoid extra kits like the spacebar and stuffs knowing I will only use one of the many in a pack and also sticking to standard layout to avoid needing additional pack. Knowing that there is no way I am gonna avoid getting that "extra" Alpha in the Cyberdeck kit could change my mind about not getting the Gaijin even if I wanted it badly. Everyone is free to do what they want, but I would, as much as I could, wish to avoid possibly hurting someone (in the future) over my own happiness and enjoyment.
Cyphre
2708
Nov 2, 2017
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MechChiaFirst off, welcome to the mechanical keyboard community! I say this because it doesn't sound like you are entirely aware of how GMK keycap sets work.
When it comes to GMK group buys, there is always one main kit which covers 99% of the layouts out there. Depending on the era, there are also adapter kits (such as spacebars and international) and novelties. In this case, Gaijin/Kobe fall under the Novelties category as they are not at all required to complete a set.
This has always been the case because the actual draw of a custom keycap set is the colorway itself. Everything else is an adapter kit of some kind, or a different set of novelties (alternate colors or custom legends). Unfortunately at the end of the day, your opinion on what kits should include what keys is irrelevant no matter how logical or common sense you think it is because this is entirely a manufacturing concern. The only time kits will change this late in the game is if there are legitimate problems with an incorrect legend (such as in international kits).
This has always been the case because the actual draw of a custom keycap set is the colorway itself. Everything else is an adapter kit of some kind, or a different set of novelties (alternate colors or custom legends). Unfortunately at the end of the day, your opinion on what kits should include what keys is irrelevant no matter how logical or common sense you think it is because this is entirely a manufacturing concern. The only time kits will change this late in the game is if there are legitimate problems with an incorrect legend (such as in international kits).
MechChia
85
Nov 2, 2017
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CyphreI am fully aware of how GMK work. Which is why I mentioned it as a suggestion (therefore I ended with "Please consider") and got no idea how a suggestion turn into a fight with idiots. Well if you were part of the so called "Mechanical Keyboard Community" you would also be aware of how much improvement Gateron and Kailh made over a short period of time while Cherry stick to their 1950s "German quality switch". Which result in many saying that they now prefer Gateron/Kailh over Cherry, while it used to be "only buy Cherry". What made the difference is that Gateron/Kailh are open to changes and suggestion. They tried, they failed, they change, and they try again. While Cherry stick to their 50 year old design simply because to them "there is only one way, this is the only way". However recently Cherry finally retooled and sell switches in boxes which is probably the result of lower sales which lead them to research and make the changes. Tho late, it is still a change.
Saying something like "this is how it will always be and will always be" is simply what a close minded people will do. Knowing my opinion and effort to voice out may be futile does not means that I will follow the herd of sheep into a slaughterhouse. Knowing that this set is dead to changes does not mean that there will not be possible changes for future sets. If the world is filled with people who don't try to change, you would probably still be eating raw uncooked meat because you got no idea what a fire is.
Looking at Mito's reply, you can see that he did think of this and tried it as well. He is probably a creative and intelligent person and not go like "it was like this before and it will stay like this forever". It probably didn't work out, as he mentioned because of the price, but at least he did try, and I hope he would try again. While what I think is GMK giving him unrealistic price to deter him from going that route, simply because "they have always been offering kits this way, so screw anyone that try to change their usual routine".
You again, misunderstood what I meant by "SPLITTING" and not adding or removing. Also by suggesting higher cost/cap what you will end up with is more usable caps(less extras), while in fact at a overall lower total cost. I would rather pay the people sorting the kits out than to pay for extra plastic that I will never use.
Saying something like "this is how it will always be and will always be" is simply what a close minded people will do. Knowing my opinion and effort to voice out may be futile does not means that I will follow the herd of sheep into a slaughterhouse. Knowing that this set is dead to changes does not mean that there will not be possible changes for future sets. If the world is filled with people who don't try to change, you would probably still be eating raw uncooked meat because you got no idea what a fire is.
Looking at Mito's reply, you can see that he did think of this and tried it as well. He is probably a creative and intelligent person and not go like "it was like this before and it will stay like this forever". It probably didn't work out, as he mentioned because of the price, but at least he did try, and I hope he would try again. While what I think is GMK giving him unrealistic price to deter him from going that route, simply because "they have always been offering kits this way, so screw anyone that try to change their usual routine".
You again, misunderstood what I meant by "SPLITTING" and not adding or removing. Also by suggesting higher cost/cap what you will end up with is more usable caps(less extras), while in fact at a overall lower total cost. I would rather pay the people sorting the kits out than to pay for extra plastic that I will never use.
Cyphre
2708
Nov 2, 2017
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MechChia"Please consider" that this is not an issue of German stubbornness, but one of cost effectiveness. Once again, completely irrelevant how you word something because this is entirely a manufacturing concern. Splitting or adding both add cost to kits that are already as cheap as it can get. It doesn't matter in what way you modify these kits, the cost goes up for everyone, as niche layouts do not represent the majority.
This is how it is and how it always will be because that is what makes something both 'custom' and 'affordable' in the same measure. Closed-mindedness plays no role in the efforts of manufacturing and production, only careful consideration of how to get the most for the most people at the best rate. To put it simply, any more kits than are shown here would require an entirely additional assembly line. And I do mean assembly line; absolute additions to a complete manufacturing process, as there is a huge differnce between a total number of keys, and a total number of kits.
So once again, welcome to the mechanical keyboard community! Be prepared to see exactly the same format for all past and future GMK keycap sets. Revel in the overall low cost for a complete set over just about any other keycap profile or manufacturer.
This is how it is and how it always will be because that is what makes something both 'custom' and 'affordable' in the same measure. Closed-mindedness plays no role in the efforts of manufacturing and production, only careful consideration of how to get the most for the most people at the best rate. To put it simply, any more kits than are shown here would require an entirely additional assembly line. And I do mean assembly line; absolute additions to a complete manufacturing process, as there is a huge differnce between a total number of keys, and a total number of kits.
So once again, welcome to the mechanical keyboard community! Be prepared to see exactly the same format for all past and future GMK keycap sets. Revel in the overall low cost for a complete set over just about any other keycap profile or manufacturer.
MechChia
85
Nov 3, 2017
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CyphreWhy do I feel like I am talking to what seems like a person who understand GMK MANUFACTURING and ASSEMBLY while in fact just an amature(or worst) at basic manufacturing? And by you saying in the second paragraph that a whole new assembly line need to be made because of the changes I proposed shows how much you are new to this.
The Alpha and Modifier having 2 different colours(4 if you include the legend colour) simply means that they are already producing in two different lines. There will be no change in the production line, just change in the sorting line which is obviously done by human. I do understand that you may think all these are fully automation (yes, there are automated sorting machines). You are probably painting GMK as a futuristic company but trust me, most are still manual. Automated sorting is way more expensive and complex then you imagined.
(https://www.instagram.com/p/BZl4idPlQAH/) (https://www.instagram.com/p/BLqxqVqAS3-/) Look at these images. They are obviously hand sorted. it even said ”Sorting and packing” on the post. You can see that the whole alpha does not come in one single production. Look at how half the carbon alpha is there only with some rows above and below empty. Automated sorting will usually be made such that the robotic fill the pallet row by row instead of jumping here and there there will also be reflective points to guide the arm in position which is obviously not visible here(trays pack edge to edge). Also looking at the number row. It is also obvious that one production line only made one particular key at a time, while they change the mold after each key is done, put them aside and sort them manually In the next department.
Another good example for keysets run is the Dasher and Dancer set(I know it is not done by GMK). Having Dasher set and Dancer set(splitting the numpad out of the base set is also extremely intelligent). If you ever want Dasher alpha and Dancer modifier you can buy one of each and end up with 2 usable sets! I can even match a numpad that I want. For those that do not want a numpad. They can save some money, buy some novelty or even buy other sets. I can keep the set I want and make a new keyboard for a friend/family or even for a girl I like. They can boost the sales by asking everyone to get a Dasher set and addon novelty for Dancer set. And also putting in the numpad into the base set, while offering a “cheaper cost”(to you it is cheaper but to others it is additional cost for useless keys) as a whole would also increase their profit. Having 2 sets of alphas in a single drop isn’t uncommon.
The way this goes is that a full set of alpha will be extras if you get the other alphas which I believed, will be popular. I can give the extra alpha to someone but that someone who match it with other set will also end up with one additional alpha. As I said before, closing both your eyes and not seeing doesn’t means things are not happening around you.
And welcome to a new world of “Using your new and unused brain instead of following a pack of idiots simply because “everyone” is doing it”.
Edit: Sorry for the mess of information. I am typing these on my phone and it is not going well(screen jumping).
The Alpha and Modifier having 2 different colours(4 if you include the legend colour) simply means that they are already producing in two different lines. There will be no change in the production line, just change in the sorting line which is obviously done by human. I do understand that you may think all these are fully automation (yes, there are automated sorting machines). You are probably painting GMK as a futuristic company but trust me, most are still manual. Automated sorting is way more expensive and complex then you imagined.
(https://www.instagram.com/p/BZl4idPlQAH/) (https://www.instagram.com/p/BLqxqVqAS3-/) Look at these images. They are obviously hand sorted. it even said ”Sorting and packing” on the post. You can see that the whole alpha does not come in one single production. Look at how half the carbon alpha is there only with some rows above and below empty. Automated sorting will usually be made such that the robotic fill the pallet row by row instead of jumping here and there there will also be reflective points to guide the arm in position which is obviously not visible here(trays pack edge to edge). Also looking at the number row. It is also obvious that one production line only made one particular key at a time, while they change the mold after each key is done, put them aside and sort them manually In the next department.
Another good example for keysets run is the Dasher and Dancer set(I know it is not done by GMK). Having Dasher set and Dancer set(splitting the numpad out of the base set is also extremely intelligent). If you ever want Dasher alpha and Dancer modifier you can buy one of each and end up with 2 usable sets! I can even match a numpad that I want. For those that do not want a numpad. They can save some money, buy some novelty or even buy other sets. I can keep the set I want and make a new keyboard for a friend/family or even for a girl I like. They can boost the sales by asking everyone to get a Dasher set and addon novelty for Dancer set. And also putting in the numpad into the base set, while offering a “cheaper cost”(to you it is cheaper but to others it is additional cost for useless keys) as a whole would also increase their profit. Having 2 sets of alphas in a single drop isn’t uncommon.
The way this goes is that a full set of alpha will be extras if you get the other alphas which I believed, will be popular. I can give the extra alpha to someone but that someone who match it with other set will also end up with one additional alpha. As I said before, closing both your eyes and not seeing doesn’t means things are not happening around you.
And welcome to a new world of “Using your new and unused brain instead of following a pack of idiots simply because “everyone” is doing it”.
Edit: Sorry for the mess of information. I am typing these on my phone and it is not going well(screen jumping).
Cyphre
2708
Nov 3, 2017
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MechChiaAs I end up stating every time someone else believes they have the best ideas in the world, I am indeed a manufacturing professional, with a degree in manufacturing, and worked for the past 17 years in various manufacturing industries.
Now, credentials aside, I made no mentioned whatsoever of automation. An assembly line only refers to the process by which a product reaches one stage of a process, regardless of the number of stages involves. As it doesn't sound like you've ever seen other GMK sets because, all 'kits' like the pictures you have linked are produced in the same way, not on the same assembly line. Every ISO International, novelties, etc kit of keys is sorted and packaged separately from any other existing kit. So once again, splitting or adding is completely irrelevant, as you would be adding yet another assembly line in the process. In the very pictures you linked, that is one kit, and only one kit; the base kit as sold in every GMK group buy.
If you're trying to argue that your math makes sense from a capacity planning standpoint, you might have a point somewhere! Only to be diminished by the fact that you probably don't know how to calculate for capacity planning without a lot of additional information. Although it would still falter under the basic assumption of how they package additional kits in the first place: even if you reduced the number of keys in a particular kit, you're still doubling the packaging and assembly lines.
I see you like Dasher/Dancer as an example, and it's a fine example, except that you are referencing an entirely different and much longer process (8-12 months) from a company that charges a lot more. It has been quite a while since any Signature Plastics SA group buys had 'base kits', but those that did were easily double the cost with fewer keys. Thus, little loss was incurred in splitting what few kits were originally grouped together. Their kitting process is also far simpler (bagged and tagged).
At the end of the day, I will simply smile and nod at your passive insults, as I really can't fault people who don't know any better. When it comes to group buys for keycap sets, you will always have more than you need, regardless of what you buy, and there is nothing bad about it. In fact it is pretty important as most people have changing tastes for fancy or uncommon keyboard layouts that maybe they didn't originally plan for, but they may have keys for. As I've had to point out before, if you don't like having extra keycaps, throw them away if you are so confident! Or maybe just give them away to that guy who posted that would happily take anyones' keys who hate having extras.
Now, credentials aside, I made no mentioned whatsoever of automation. An assembly line only refers to the process by which a product reaches one stage of a process, regardless of the number of stages involves. As it doesn't sound like you've ever seen other GMK sets because, all 'kits' like the pictures you have linked are produced in the same way, not on the same assembly line. Every ISO International, novelties, etc kit of keys is sorted and packaged separately from any other existing kit. So once again, splitting or adding is completely irrelevant, as you would be adding yet another assembly line in the process. In the very pictures you linked, that is one kit, and only one kit; the base kit as sold in every GMK group buy.
If you're trying to argue that your math makes sense from a capacity planning standpoint, you might have a point somewhere! Only to be diminished by the fact that you probably don't know how to calculate for capacity planning without a lot of additional information. Although it would still falter under the basic assumption of how they package additional kits in the first place: even if you reduced the number of keys in a particular kit, you're still doubling the packaging and assembly lines.
I see you like Dasher/Dancer as an example, and it's a fine example, except that you are referencing an entirely different and much longer process (8-12 months) from a company that charges a lot more. It has been quite a while since any Signature Plastics SA group buys had 'base kits', but those that did were easily double the cost with fewer keys. Thus, little loss was incurred in splitting what few kits were originally grouped together. Their kitting process is also far simpler (bagged and tagged).
At the end of the day, I will simply smile and nod at your passive insults, as I really can't fault people who don't know any better. When it comes to group buys for keycap sets, you will always have more than you need, regardless of what you buy, and there is nothing bad about it. In fact it is pretty important as most people have changing tastes for fancy or uncommon keyboard layouts that maybe they didn't originally plan for, but they may have keys for. As I've had to point out before, if you don't like having extra keycaps, throw them away if you are so confident! Or maybe just give them away to that guy who posted that would happily take anyones' keys who hate having extras.
sevenseacat
1938
Nov 3, 2017
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Cyphrethanks for your patience in these explanations, from the rest of us who don't know much about manufacturing and like learning :)
Bendi
37
Nov 3, 2017
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CyphreAre you referring to the concept of economies of scale? There's always an argument of choice vs availability, but unfortunately without owning the whole supply chain, we will have to resort to contract manufacturing, which entails some inflexibility behind customisation and limitation to production capacity.
And I agree this is business, and the contract manufacturer is not here for the greater good, but the greater bottom line at the end of the day.
And I agree this is business, and the contract manufacturer is not here for the greater good, but the greater bottom line at the end of the day.
Cyphre
2708
Nov 3, 2017
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BendiEconomies of scale is the broader concept of it. Capacity planning is sort of 'planning from all directions' such as taking into account actual production time numbers, employees, equipment, and materials availability with its associated cost to quantity relations. Minutiae that would definitively calculate the difference in how best to produce something for the sake of sales and margins.
Not something I'm terribly familiar with since only certain managers handle employee numbers where I work, and departments acquire their own equipment.
MechChia
85
Nov 3, 2017
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CyphreSo you assuming I am new to this is cool while me saying your brain is new is a passive insult? Wow! I am amazed by how you perceive things. Looking at the mistakes of others and and not knowing you are doing the exact same thing. Exactly what a man without wisdom would do.
What is the point of having a degree in manufacturing and 17 years of work experience if all you ever do is follow instructions and tell your boss "this is how my superior teach me to do it before he retire, so this is the only way to do it." That makes you as good as a 6 year old following instructions and building his first Gundam model kit (Sorry if any 6 year old feel insulted). And I am proud of being able to have the "best ideas in the world" as oppose to accepting that everything is the way it is.
I also in no way state that I expect zero extra keys but rather to reduce the number of extra keys being purchased. Seems like people have difficulty understanding simple word like "SPLITTING" and "REDUCING". Proposing for possibility to replace the main alpha with the Gaijin/Kobe alpha(flexible Alpha and modifer combo) as a set would means I will have all the extra modifiers, just lesser Alphas. While still able to be flexible(as you mentioned, changing tastes) with new layout because for different layout, usually the modifier change and not the Alpha. Ever need a keyboard layout with 2 Alphas?
And as you mentioned in your Dasher/Dancer paragraph, quoted from you "It has been quite a while since any Signature Plastics SA group buys had 'base kits', but those that did were easily double the cost with fewer keys. Thus, little loss was incurred in splitting what few kits were originally grouped together. " You are essential agreeing with me by saying having "Base kits", "easily double the cost with fewer keys(since you can't use all of them)". Isn't this what I am trying to proposed? SP probably realized it and decide to change. They use less raw material(Plastic), essentially lowering material cost(and having minimal impact on profit), while giving people more options to choose(people can even buy more(novelty) because they just buy what they need). While SP bagging process is indeed different (putting in bags), being a plastic company working with plastic, how much more does it cost to redesign a new uncomplicated tray(investment)? And who in GMK decides what consist of a base kit in a first place? I can tell you that he is surely human, and I can also tell you that he is not a God and not everything he do is right. Holy Grail?
Also, saying SP production process takes longer (8 to 12 months) is definitely untrue. Look at older group buys. (https://deskthority.net/group-buys-f50/pulse-sa-keyset-get-your-wallet-gb-live-t8726.html) R1(?) Pulse GB starts on September 2014 and shipped on December 2014. SP now taking more than a year is mainly due to them being too ambitious and taking up more job then they could manage thus the backlog and delay(continue accepting orders even if they have a year long queue). Also note that they do PBT and different profile keycaps too, which means they have more process while being able to be flexible with the type of sets people proposed.
You using “economies of scale” literally means GMK saying “Screw everyone! Just give me my money and eat whatever I put into your mouth.” Earning money is the priority, while keeping customers happy is equally important. Walking into a tire shop and have the salesman tell you that they only sell tires in set of 24(while you only need 4) because of "economies of scale" would probably make you feel stupid. Now you feel the impact? Because having 20 tires in your garage is simply crazy. So why does offering a kit and having 70%+ of it sitting in your storage not a cause for concern? Yes they are small but that does not mean they don't exist. And you, reading Mito's reply should have realized that him being the most familiar with these things realized that the way this is currently running is not the "best case scenario". He probably gave that suggestion to GMK knowingly that there may not be a good outcome. So does that does not means the act of proposing it is stupid and worthless. Rather than that, I am now even more incline to purchase these to support him and hope he gain more trust and value with GMK the next time he run another group buy.
Finally, as quoted from Greek philosopher Heraclitus ”the only constant is change”(some say he is not the one who said it, but it is not from me so I rather give him the credit). You are free to hide in your comfortable box and do nothing, but I will continue to explore the possibility, of changing something(anything) for the better.
EDIT: Now that the drop is out. Take a look at the checkout. It clearer put Cyberdeck, Gaijin and Kobe as "BASED KITS". While in an earlier post, you mentioned "In this case, Gaijin/Kobe fall under the Novelties category as they are not at all required to complete a set." As the name imply, "BASED KIT" simply means yeah... based kit. Which means it was meant as a base for addon, and not an addon for the base. Buy 2 based kit while only being able to fill one set of keyboard? Of course I can buy it and do whatever I want, but as I mentioned above, this is definitely not the intention from the start.
What is the point of having a degree in manufacturing and 17 years of work experience if all you ever do is follow instructions and tell your boss "this is how my superior teach me to do it before he retire, so this is the only way to do it." That makes you as good as a 6 year old following instructions and building his first Gundam model kit (Sorry if any 6 year old feel insulted). And I am proud of being able to have the "best ideas in the world" as oppose to accepting that everything is the way it is.
I also in no way state that I expect zero extra keys but rather to reduce the number of extra keys being purchased. Seems like people have difficulty understanding simple word like "SPLITTING" and "REDUCING". Proposing for possibility to replace the main alpha with the Gaijin/Kobe alpha(flexible Alpha and modifer combo) as a set would means I will have all the extra modifiers, just lesser Alphas. While still able to be flexible(as you mentioned, changing tastes) with new layout because for different layout, usually the modifier change and not the Alpha. Ever need a keyboard layout with 2 Alphas?
And as you mentioned in your Dasher/Dancer paragraph, quoted from you "It has been quite a while since any Signature Plastics SA group buys had 'base kits', but those that did were easily double the cost with fewer keys. Thus, little loss was incurred in splitting what few kits were originally grouped together. " You are essential agreeing with me by saying having "Base kits", "easily double the cost with fewer keys(since you can't use all of them)". Isn't this what I am trying to proposed? SP probably realized it and decide to change. They use less raw material(Plastic), essentially lowering material cost(and having minimal impact on profit), while giving people more options to choose(people can even buy more(novelty) because they just buy what they need). While SP bagging process is indeed different (putting in bags), being a plastic company working with plastic, how much more does it cost to redesign a new uncomplicated tray(investment)? And who in GMK decides what consist of a base kit in a first place? I can tell you that he is surely human, and I can also tell you that he is not a God and not everything he do is right. Holy Grail?
Also, saying SP production process takes longer (8 to 12 months) is definitely untrue. Look at older group buys. (https://deskthority.net/group-buys-f50/pulse-sa-keyset-get-your-wallet-gb-live-t8726.html) R1(?) Pulse GB starts on September 2014 and shipped on December 2014. SP now taking more than a year is mainly due to them being too ambitious and taking up more job then they could manage thus the backlog and delay(continue accepting orders even if they have a year long queue). Also note that they do PBT and different profile keycaps too, which means they have more process while being able to be flexible with the type of sets people proposed.
You using “economies of scale” literally means GMK saying “Screw everyone! Just give me my money and eat whatever I put into your mouth.” Earning money is the priority, while keeping customers happy is equally important. Walking into a tire shop and have the salesman tell you that they only sell tires in set of 24(while you only need 4) because of "economies of scale" would probably make you feel stupid. Now you feel the impact? Because having 20 tires in your garage is simply crazy. So why does offering a kit and having 70%+ of it sitting in your storage not a cause for concern? Yes they are small but that does not mean they don't exist. And you, reading Mito's reply should have realized that him being the most familiar with these things realized that the way this is currently running is not the "best case scenario". He probably gave that suggestion to GMK knowingly that there may not be a good outcome. So does that does not means the act of proposing it is stupid and worthless. Rather than that, I am now even more incline to purchase these to support him and hope he gain more trust and value with GMK the next time he run another group buy.
Finally, as quoted from Greek philosopher Heraclitus ”the only constant is change”(some say he is not the one who said it, but it is not from me so I rather give him the credit). You are free to hide in your comfortable box and do nothing, but I will continue to explore the possibility, of changing something(anything) for the better.
EDIT: Now that the drop is out. Take a look at the checkout. It clearer put Cyberdeck, Gaijin and Kobe as "BASED KITS". While in an earlier post, you mentioned "In this case, Gaijin/Kobe fall under the Novelties category as they are not at all required to complete a set." As the name imply, "BASED KIT" simply means yeah... based kit. Which means it was meant as a base for addon, and not an addon for the base. Buy 2 based kit while only being able to fill one set of keyboard? Of course I can buy it and do whatever I want, but as I mentioned above, this is definitely not the intention from the start.
Cyphre
2708
Nov 3, 2017
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MechChiaYou being new isn't an insult, that is the difference. There is nothing wrong with being new to the community and being unaware as to how group buys of this nature work. It just so happens this particular topic comes up time and time again so I take it upon myself to expand the narrative and explain why things are the way they are.
Not really sure where you're drawing conclusions about my experience, having a college degree somehow equates to only learning on the job? Not really how that works, and definitely does not at all refute the basics of production manufacturing.
Having extra keys and reducing extra keys are both irrelevant topics, is the problem. Any and all changes to kits as they are would result in increased kits and thus, increased cost. We're all here to get the most for our dollar, and the company is here to get the most done with the least amount of overhead.
Seems you missed a point on Dasher and Dancer and all other Signature Plastics group buys, and that is cost. Overall cost and lead time. Their base kits in particular generally only covered standard layouts, and you still had to buy the associated kits to make it work on anything else. In fact, your example is actually agreeing with me: a considerable increase in cost that no one prefers. Either way, your hyperbole doesn't really relate, because none of the costs or processes are similar outside the injection-molded ABS. Fact is if SP ever produced a kit that contained the same keys as a base GMK, it would be horrendously expensive. They are in separate kits to make it more palatable to the general populous, as even covering a generic US ANSI layout currently costs more than a GMK base kit. Honestly you were better off making a point about GMK Oblivion which had two separate kits with different alphas. Still not the same since there are three different alphas available here and way more options than just about any GMK set I've seen before.
Feel free to take a look at all the other SP group buys while you're at it to understand what their lead times are now. Of which is more due to them being a company that mass produces things that aren't keycaps for other major companies.
I actually didn't use 'economics of scale' in my previous statement, I specifically stated capacity planning. That would be the only method to absolutely determine total cost and overhead for a single production. And since this isn't some small, mom and pop manufacturing company, you can rest assured they know how to plan and produce things in the most efficient way for the cheapest end customer price. Yes, in fact we all already knew MiTo had taken steps to get the best out of his kit selections, as this GB concept has been around for something like a year now. Conversations and negotiations definitely happened, and this you see here is exactly that result. Any and all ideas you may have are nothing new, the rest of us just aren't interested in increased costs across the board.
Kit names don't really imply anything, so I'm not sure what you're trying to say there. GMK keysets have a 'base kit' that is comprised of keys which will cover 99% of the layouts out there and child kits which are extra adapters (ISO International, ergo, and space bars every time) or novelties (custom legends).
Not really sure where you're drawing conclusions about my experience, having a college degree somehow equates to only learning on the job? Not really how that works, and definitely does not at all refute the basics of production manufacturing.
Having extra keys and reducing extra keys are both irrelevant topics, is the problem. Any and all changes to kits as they are would result in increased kits and thus, increased cost. We're all here to get the most for our dollar, and the company is here to get the most done with the least amount of overhead.
Seems you missed a point on Dasher and Dancer and all other Signature Plastics group buys, and that is cost. Overall cost and lead time. Their base kits in particular generally only covered standard layouts, and you still had to buy the associated kits to make it work on anything else. In fact, your example is actually agreeing with me: a considerable increase in cost that no one prefers. Either way, your hyperbole doesn't really relate, because none of the costs or processes are similar outside the injection-molded ABS. Fact is if SP ever produced a kit that contained the same keys as a base GMK, it would be horrendously expensive. They are in separate kits to make it more palatable to the general populous, as even covering a generic US ANSI layout currently costs more than a GMK base kit. Honestly you were better off making a point about GMK Oblivion which had two separate kits with different alphas. Still not the same since there are three different alphas available here and way more options than just about any GMK set I've seen before.
Feel free to take a look at all the other SP group buys while you're at it to understand what their lead times are now. Of which is more due to them being a company that mass produces things that aren't keycaps for other major companies.
I actually didn't use 'economics of scale' in my previous statement, I specifically stated capacity planning. That would be the only method to absolutely determine total cost and overhead for a single production. And since this isn't some small, mom and pop manufacturing company, you can rest assured they know how to plan and produce things in the most efficient way for the cheapest end customer price. Yes, in fact we all already knew MiTo had taken steps to get the best out of his kit selections, as this GB concept has been around for something like a year now. Conversations and negotiations definitely happened, and this you see here is exactly that result. Any and all ideas you may have are nothing new, the rest of us just aren't interested in increased costs across the board.
Kit names don't really imply anything, so I'm not sure what you're trying to say there. GMK keysets have a 'base kit' that is comprised of keys which will cover 99% of the layouts out there and child kits which are extra adapters (ISO International, ergo, and space bars every time) or novelties (custom legends).
MechChia
85
Nov 3, 2017
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CyphreHah... Great I can't even complete my laugh now. Welcoming a stranger to a new sport simply because you assume I don't know anything about how this sport works? Isn't that as good as walking the dressing room of a pro soccer team while not asking and go like "Hi, amature!". While my view may not be deem "normal" by you or by everyone else, however again, who determines what is "normal"? While Einstein first published on theory of relativity in 1905, it is only last year where it is proven. It takes more than 100 years of people (like you) saying that all these are futile without result, for one stubborn person to continue to believe that he could do it. This guy(group of people), probably have people (like you) telling him to give up, and how thousands more intelligent people had already worked on it.
And me showing you an earlier group buy, is just an indication that they can produce keysets as fast as GMK, while you assume that they will always take a year. I think the difference is between "can do" and "want to do", Can they produce it fast? Yes, they clearly can. But do they want to produce it fast? Probably not, better to secure as much money as they can get while letting customers wait as long as they could. This is simply because someone in SP probably go like "We are gonna accept all these orders, even though we clearly do not have the volume and capacity to do it... We are still gonna accept all orders." And everyone simply follow creating the "NORM" that it takes 1 year to complete a set. So again? Who determined what is the "NORM". And as you said, the only thing similar about GMK and SP is the "injection-molded ABS", while you are comparing the price of SP and GMK, knowing full well that they are the same plastic while still costing different is pretty irrelevant. You are also probably aware, Mr. Senior, that SP had been the only company that make available for purchase SA profile keycaps (before MAXKEY exist). While there are many company making Cherry style keycaps, requiring GMK to price their product competitively. I bought in SP to explain the kit format as an example and not the cost of said kit format. So why don't more companies try to make SA profile keycap? Probably because the tooling are more complex than standard Cherry profile. Thus comparing them for the cost is like comparing apple and orange.
And you bringing up SP Oblivion got me into looking at GMK Oblivion (https://www.keyclack.com/groupbuy/gmkOblivionR1) and look what I found. 2 ALPHAS 1 MODIFIER! Set A consist of White Alpha and set B consist of Black Alpha while both have the SAME MODIFIER! Perfect! While they manage to keep it at $135 for such a low MOQ as compared to this reaching a thousand already. Tell me that this is not possible now! The fact that you saw the $109.90 price at 1500 drop make your mind set that anything higher is not acceptable, while in fact, if this was priced at $119.90 at 1500 drop at the start will makes you easily able to accept it as well. Look at the new iPhone X, which Apple priced at $999. First impression, this is too expensive. Assuming they don't release the $999 price and go for $899. First impression, this is too expensive. Hope you understand what I am trying to say with the so called "irrelevant" example, while in fact I am showing you how to relate to different things while things being different, can be really similar at the same thing. The difference between a person who absorb everything as oppose to accept everything. MAGIC!
For this line, "Any and all ideas you may have are nothing new, the rest of us just aren't interested in increased costs across the board." Like I always say, do not use "EVERYONE" and "THE REST OF US". What about your own idea instead of trying to implant it into "EVERYONE"? Take responsibility of your ideas and not try to dilute it with "EVERYONE". Oh... I have forgotten! You, alone, are everyone in this world other than me. A simple cog in a gear.
As for the insult. In my first reply to you "welcoming me to the mechanical keyboard community", I clearer state (politely) that I am not new to this. While giving my stand on the matter with what I know about the said "Mechanical Keyboard" topic. While you replied, ending with "welcoming me to to mechanical keyboard community" again, knowing fair well that I am not new to this. Read my first reply to you, which you can see is free of insults. In case you do not get it, the "idiots" that I mentioned is not you but the other two above. You replied pretty politely so I do the same for you. The first time you "welcome me". I accepted and replied you nicely, letting you know, while you return my kindness with hostility by "welcoming me" again? And next you said I am "passively insulting" you? If you can't take an insult, you should stop trying to do it at all. You clearly are new to the art of insulting. So let me welcome you to this community of insult. I hope the "Mechanical Keyboard Community" that you were trying to show your seniority to isn't full of people like you.
As to where I drawing conclusions about your experience and ability to learn? You, keep saying that there is no way for something to work as if you can know without even trying, while all I think is that it is possible(Yes, possibility not certainty, which is good enough) with some planning and communication, clearly shows that you have learning deficiency. You are just a cog getting driven everyday while never tried to drive something would probably not understand. Simply put, you are just not opened to new things.
While I can fully see that our thoughts will never align(which I am truly glad), I wish you for the best in continuing doing the same thing over and over again for the rest of your life. That being said. I hope to end this public argument knowing the fact that you are a hopeless person thinking that nothing is possible and everything is irrelevant simply because you are unable to perceive things from a different perspective makes it better for me to talk to my cute little dog (he will learn to sit and roll). *I will not reply to you anymore simply because this is more than enough entertainment for me. Better to get out of my house and find new faults in life*
And me showing you an earlier group buy, is just an indication that they can produce keysets as fast as GMK, while you assume that they will always take a year. I think the difference is between "can do" and "want to do", Can they produce it fast? Yes, they clearly can. But do they want to produce it fast? Probably not, better to secure as much money as they can get while letting customers wait as long as they could. This is simply because someone in SP probably go like "We are gonna accept all these orders, even though we clearly do not have the volume and capacity to do it... We are still gonna accept all orders." And everyone simply follow creating the "NORM" that it takes 1 year to complete a set. So again? Who determined what is the "NORM". And as you said, the only thing similar about GMK and SP is the "injection-molded ABS", while you are comparing the price of SP and GMK, knowing full well that they are the same plastic while still costing different is pretty irrelevant. You are also probably aware, Mr. Senior, that SP had been the only company that make available for purchase SA profile keycaps (before MAXKEY exist). While there are many company making Cherry style keycaps, requiring GMK to price their product competitively. I bought in SP to explain the kit format as an example and not the cost of said kit format. So why don't more companies try to make SA profile keycap? Probably because the tooling are more complex than standard Cherry profile. Thus comparing them for the cost is like comparing apple and orange.
And you bringing up SP Oblivion got me into looking at GMK Oblivion (https://www.keyclack.com/groupbuy/gmkOblivionR1) and look what I found. 2 ALPHAS 1 MODIFIER! Set A consist of White Alpha and set B consist of Black Alpha while both have the SAME MODIFIER! Perfect! While they manage to keep it at $135 for such a low MOQ as compared to this reaching a thousand already. Tell me that this is not possible now! The fact that you saw the $109.90 price at 1500 drop make your mind set that anything higher is not acceptable, while in fact, if this was priced at $119.90 at 1500 drop at the start will makes you easily able to accept it as well. Look at the new iPhone X, which Apple priced at $999. First impression, this is too expensive. Assuming they don't release the $999 price and go for $899. First impression, this is too expensive. Hope you understand what I am trying to say with the so called "irrelevant" example, while in fact I am showing you how to relate to different things while things being different, can be really similar at the same thing. The difference between a person who absorb everything as oppose to accept everything. MAGIC!
For this line, "Any and all ideas you may have are nothing new, the rest of us just aren't interested in increased costs across the board." Like I always say, do not use "EVERYONE" and "THE REST OF US". What about your own idea instead of trying to implant it into "EVERYONE"? Take responsibility of your ideas and not try to dilute it with "EVERYONE". Oh... I have forgotten! You, alone, are everyone in this world other than me. A simple cog in a gear.
As for the insult. In my first reply to you "welcoming me to the mechanical keyboard community", I clearer state (politely) that I am not new to this. While giving my stand on the matter with what I know about the said "Mechanical Keyboard" topic. While you replied, ending with "welcoming me to to mechanical keyboard community" again, knowing fair well that I am not new to this. Read my first reply to you, which you can see is free of insults. In case you do not get it, the "idiots" that I mentioned is not you but the other two above. You replied pretty politely so I do the same for you. The first time you "welcome me". I accepted and replied you nicely, letting you know, while you return my kindness with hostility by "welcoming me" again? And next you said I am "passively insulting" you? If you can't take an insult, you should stop trying to do it at all. You clearly are new to the art of insulting. So let me welcome you to this community of insult. I hope the "Mechanical Keyboard Community" that you were trying to show your seniority to isn't full of people like you.
As to where I drawing conclusions about your experience and ability to learn? You, keep saying that there is no way for something to work as if you can know without even trying, while all I think is that it is possible(Yes, possibility not certainty, which is good enough) with some planning and communication, clearly shows that you have learning deficiency. You are just a cog getting driven everyday while never tried to drive something would probably not understand. Simply put, you are just not opened to new things.
While I can fully see that our thoughts will never align(which I am truly glad), I wish you for the best in continuing doing the same thing over and over again for the rest of your life. That being said. I hope to end this public argument knowing the fact that you are a hopeless person thinking that nothing is possible and everything is irrelevant simply because you are unable to perceive things from a different perspective makes it better for me to talk to my cute little dog (he will learn to sit and roll). *I will not reply to you anymore simply because this is more than enough entertainment for me. Better to get out of my house and find new faults in life*
Cyphre
2708
Nov 3, 2017
bookmark_border
MechChiaSeems you've once again completely missed the point, but that's fine, everyone learns eventually. Let's be clear on one concept though: in the world of production manufacturing 'open-mindedness' and other concepts you talking about are completely irrelevant. This is a world of absolute numbers and calculations of overhead. There are no new concepts here, only existing numbers and business insight (i.e. specifics related to a certain industry). Who determines 'normal'? The costs of production manufacturing. Short of changes to a country's economy or additional outside sourcing, a company will charge what they charge because that is the best deal for them. There is no 'trying' or 'learning' to be had here, only basic economics and math.
I'm afraid referencing an old SP group buy in no way relates to their current business model, nor at all relatable to different companies producting similar but different products. Both of which are much larger companies that deal with much larger customers in other markets that aren't the custom mechanical keyboard community.
Seems you also missed the point about GMK Oblivion and how it relates to GMK drops on MD. From a generic standpoint, anyone can start a group buy with GMK, and the MOQ will always be 250 to start with. It only cost $135 because A. It isn't on MD, so there isn't an associated cost with operating a company, and international orders were filtered to EU/Asia proxies (a different cost), and B. There were only two main kits. Oh sorry, did you just want alphas and monochrome legends? Still had to buy a complete base kit and any additional kit on top of it just like this drop. If Keyclack had run a GB for GMK Laser with the kits presented here, it would actually cost a lot more (although it would likely hit higher MOQ without a problem). In simpler terms, the cost looks similar here as it did there because MD has to make its cut, so the actual cost is definitely lower, and entirely why sets like GMK Plum hit $100.
"OMG he said EVERYONE but he doesn't speak for everyone!" Certainly would be a sound argument, but I can say for certainty that everyone, and I do mean EVERYONE is interested in the lowest prices possible. The only way to do so is simplifying the process, not adding to it.
You can keep saying you're not new to this, but so far everyone has explained exactly why GMK group buys are the way they are. I can only assume you are new because you keep thinking there is 'some other way' that is better than ever. I urge you to run your own group buy in the future. Find a nice color scheme, post an Interest Check on GH or r/mk and email GMK to start the process. You don't even have to run the actual group buy, only gather the necessary info that will inform you what the actual costs are and what ideas of yours would actually have positive results. Anyone and everyone is welcome to try! There isn't some secret trick to it, or needing to know the right people, just some proper communication with the company you're interested in dealing with. I may sound condescending, but I am legitimately suggesting you try it for yourself to get solid numbers and answers from GMK. That is the only way to know for certain! If you're looking for a place to start, maybe message /u/jchan94 on reddit since he ran the GMK Oblivion group buy.
I'm afraid referencing an old SP group buy in no way relates to their current business model, nor at all relatable to different companies producting similar but different products. Both of which are much larger companies that deal with much larger customers in other markets that aren't the custom mechanical keyboard community.
Seems you also missed the point about GMK Oblivion and how it relates to GMK drops on MD. From a generic standpoint, anyone can start a group buy with GMK, and the MOQ will always be 250 to start with. It only cost $135 because A. It isn't on MD, so there isn't an associated cost with operating a company, and international orders were filtered to EU/Asia proxies (a different cost), and B. There were only two main kits. Oh sorry, did you just want alphas and monochrome legends? Still had to buy a complete base kit and any additional kit on top of it just like this drop. If Keyclack had run a GB for GMK Laser with the kits presented here, it would actually cost a lot more (although it would likely hit higher MOQ without a problem). In simpler terms, the cost looks similar here as it did there because MD has to make its cut, so the actual cost is definitely lower, and entirely why sets like GMK Plum hit $100.
"OMG he said EVERYONE but he doesn't speak for everyone!" Certainly would be a sound argument, but I can say for certainty that everyone, and I do mean EVERYONE is interested in the lowest prices possible. The only way to do so is simplifying the process, not adding to it.
You can keep saying you're not new to this, but so far everyone has explained exactly why GMK group buys are the way they are. I can only assume you are new because you keep thinking there is 'some other way' that is better than ever. I urge you to run your own group buy in the future. Find a nice color scheme, post an Interest Check on GH or r/mk and email GMK to start the process. You don't even have to run the actual group buy, only gather the necessary info that will inform you what the actual costs are and what ideas of yours would actually have positive results. Anyone and everyone is welcome to try! There isn't some secret trick to it, or needing to know the right people, just some proper communication with the company you're interested in dealing with. I may sound condescending, but I am legitimately suggesting you try it for yourself to get solid numbers and answers from GMK. That is the only way to know for certain! If you're looking for a place to start, maybe message /u/jchan94 on reddit since he ran the GMK Oblivion group buy.
schoolbus
1292
Nov 4, 2017
bookmark_border
MechChiaHonestly you’re lost and ignorant. Just don’t join the drop and everyone will be happier (you included)
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