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fropones
48
May 18, 2017
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am I the only one underwhelmed by the novelties? Compared to novelties from other sets it doesn't seem like there's much there.
May 18, 2017
ojrask
191
May 18, 2017
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froponesThe only way to get more novelties is to either create new molds (which can costs tens of thousands a piece) or then reuse molds from earlier projects (which in turn would mean having the same novelties as things like GMK Carbon). I presume the available molds for old novelties were not a good match for the theme of this set.
May 18, 2017
Vigrith
4081
May 18, 2017
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froponesI can't speak for @T0mb3ry but I'd imagine it was a choice he had to make - the entire Cyrillic kit in itself is practically just a bunch of novelty keys for most buyers (except the small minority of actual natives), glorious keys are also novelties, even icon mods are novelty-esque.
There definitely isn't much there, two different enter keys for two different layouts means at least 2 of them will most likely not be used ever, same goes for the numpad enter, but honestly this set has so much going for it and is so revolutionary in its modularity that I think something had to give. I love the novelties that do exist but it'll be hard to justify the cost.
May 18, 2017
fropones
48
May 18, 2017
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VigrithRight, don't get me wrong, the set itself is amazing and I'm super excited, I was just a little bummed about the novelties after looking at some older sets.
May 18, 2017
Vigrith
4081
May 18, 2017
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froponesIndeed, I'd imagine you've mostly been looking at Signature Plastic buys though, right?
Most (almost all) GMK sets offer little to no novelties at all - Plum for example had none (except like 1 or 2 plum keys that were added as a little bonus/thank you from the designer and Massdrop), GMK carbon had none to start with and then dropped a bunch of them at a later point.
Honeywell, Stormtrooper, Cyan, Penumbra, Sky Dolch, Skeletor, Keyboard & Co, Hyperfuse, the 2 new Miami sets - none of these have a single novelty key at all.
May 18, 2017
fropones
48
May 18, 2017
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VigrithGood point, I probably was mainly looking at SA. Although the new Metro Alert set has some cool novelties, although maybe that's why it's on the pricier side.
May 18, 2017
t0rk
154
May 18, 2017
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froponesYeah, I definitely prefer novelties that aren't mass murdering regime themed.
May 18, 2017
elFick
319
May 18, 2017
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t0rkSo basically no national novelties of any kind? :)
May 18, 2017
Vigrith
4081
May 18, 2017
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t0rk
search
May 18, 2017
t0rk
154
May 18, 2017
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elFickI'd be pretty neutral on Swiss themed novelties.
May 18, 2017
t0rk
154
May 18, 2017
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VigrithPersonal preference I guess.
May 18, 2017
ojrask
191
May 18, 2017
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t0rkI see what you did there.
May 18, 2017
elFick
319
May 18, 2017
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t0rkWell played.
May 18, 2017
johu
66
May 18, 2017
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t0rkWhich country/regime/political system related novelties haven't mass murdered any people?
May 18, 2017
Vigrith
4081
May 18, 2017
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t0rkI mean if you're talking about preferring to not be offended by a bunch of clearly harmless designs on a couple plastic key caps then I suppose.
May 18, 2017
djfrantz
220
May 18, 2017
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t0rkBut I've already got a Swiss themed key on all my keysets.
May 18, 2017
gyratus
40
May 18, 2017
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t0rk7bit's Round 5 and/or 6 already had "Helvetica" keys. :-)
May 18, 2017
t0rk
154
May 18, 2017
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Vigrithhahah I'm not offended man, I'm just not going to buy them. Same as I wouldn't buy swastika themed novelties.
May 18, 2017
breakerjump
21
May 18, 2017
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t0rkYeah, this is where I landed, too. It's not offensive, but I don't want a communist ☭ on my desk.
I would definitely have gone in for some space-based iconography, though. That's weirdly missing from an otherwise wonderful set.
May 18, 2017
Vigrith
4081
May 18, 2017
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t0rkYou mean one of the sacred Hindu symbol? You might not be offended but it clearly bothers you else you wouldn't have felt the need to express your opinion on mass murdering regimes. This is a space exploration themed set and a celebration of Mr. Gagarin as well as the USSR's contributions to something as important as that.
Then again, this is 2017 and of course someone's going to be offended by and stand against something no matter what it is, meat, men, feminists, homosexuals, homophones, Trump, Macron, themed novelty plastic key caps that you put on your keyboard, etc.
If you only see the bad in the theme rather than acknowledging what they did and what they made possible then that's highly disappointing. That stance does nothing but bring misery to the world.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CbIZU8cQWXc&t=1s
May 18, 2017
breakerjump
21
May 18, 2017
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VigrithI'm not t0rk, obviously, and REALLY don't want to get in to an argument here of all places, but allow me to play devil's advocate and bring some alternative context.
The trans-continental railroad in North America was a wonderful achievement. It was also largely built by Chinese working what amounts to virtual slave labor. All the while, their work was protected by Sherman as he slaughtered Native men, women, and children.
I wouldn't want any symbol of Sherman's on my desk, either. Not even as a novelty. The South did some incredible things, too. But I'm not going to put a confederate flag on my desk.
Anyway, to be honest it really does seem like you're the one who's taken offense.
May 18, 2017
Vigrith
4081
May 18, 2017
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breakerjumpYuri Gagarin never killed anyone as far as I know (I'm not being snide, never know), these caps don't have Lenin or Stalin's face on them, it's a space exploration theme and whilst you may not want the hammer & sickle caps on your board but why do people have to vocalize their preferences in such a distasteful manner? Classifying the entire regime and their people (not just then, but now) as supporting of mass murder is ridiculous.
My argument has nothing to do with supporting ideologies that are obviously controversial, I'm not defending them either, my opinion of communism is irrelevant here.
What about my post has led you to believe I'm offended by anything? I just think it is disappointing and saddening that people are so narrow minded - this happened before on Geekhack, a Chinese community member posted some work he's been doing on artisan boxes (for display) and he had a collection of Nazi themed keycaps; the images were promptly removed by moderators because people were upset and offended. Isn't that ridiculous? People can take interest in things without supporting them, it's not wrong of them to do it.
May 18, 2017
Child
16
May 18, 2017
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VigrithOnly a person hugely ignorant of the most prominent "achievements" of people using hammer&sickle or swastika as their emblems could compare those to some of the more or less controversive ideas or people of today. I don't know were you come from, but believe me there are multiple countries where those symbols are immediately associated with grief, misery, occupation and mass murders, not space exploration.
US space program foundations were laid by Werner von Braun and his V2 missile from WWII - does this make swastika appropriate for eg. NASA keycap theme?
May 18, 2017
t0rk
154
May 18, 2017
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VigrithYou're right then, there is something about this that bothers me, and that's why I'm not going to buy it.
I don't know what point you're trying to make; you wouldn't put swastika novelties in a yoga themed set. The hammer and sickle carries a lot more weight than just as a symbol of space exploration, and there are any number of different icons that would have been more interesting and relevant, which could easily have been used instead.
I have no interest in getting in a long winded debate with you, nor in "bringing misery to the world." My point is that a whole lot of misery was created under that symbol, and to forget that would be a tragedy.
May 18, 2017
Vigrith
4081
May 18, 2017
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ChildI think you may have misinterpreted what I said somehow, I thought what I said was pretty straight forward.
Firstly the hammer & sickle was mentioned by @breakerjump firstly; that kit is called "glorious", not novelties. The novelties, which were what this discussion was about from the get go, are Gagarin's CCCP helmet and what I assume to be representative of the Red Star (I'm not the designer so I don't want to speak for anyone but myself). I wasn't relating the hammer and sickle to anything with space exploration, I was speaking of the overall theme of the set.
Lots of things are associated with grief, misery and mass murdering occupation. I understand one's moral standpoint if they rather not be associated with it, my qualm is solely the fact that it was instantly classified as such; land of the free and all, freedom of speech, but what is the point of coming on here and saying "lol nice keys supporting of mass murdering regimes"? What is that going to accomplish? If this hadn't been brought up I'd have stayed out of the subject.
The point was that I think basically branding anyone who buys the novelties as supporting of mass murder is a little bit on the crazy side. That wasn't what was said but people read between the lines, what was implied is obvious. Those people that associate these symbols with grief and hardship don't need people to fight for them on the internet, I'm sure they appreciate your stand outside of a plastic key cap buy.
Edit: @t0rk I agree that it hasn't got much (if anything) to do with space exploration. I was talking about the actual novelties, not the glorious kit. I still stand by what I said but I completely agree that there would've been more relevant novelties to be made. I'd rather not question T0mb3ry's choice to include them, if he felt they fit that's his vision, if people like them they'll buy them, if they don't, they won't.
May 18, 2017
elFick
319
May 18, 2017
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t0rkI'm curious, but hesitant to ask since I feel this thread has long been out of hand, are you joining the Yuri GB but not getting the glorious kit (I'm in this group) or not getting Yuri at all? Please don't anyone read between any lines on this, it's just my curiosity. I've I could figure out how to PM on massdrop I would have done that instead.
May 18, 2017
Vigrith
4081
May 18, 2017
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elFickMD's boards don't allow PMs! How come you feel as though this has gotten out of hand? All that's happening is a (in my opinion and far as my side of it goes) healthy argument. I'm not trying to shit on anybody nor do I think the other 3+ participants are. I feel like no one's been disrespectful, there's no name calling, there's no over-the-top fanaticism and to my eyes it's a no harm no foul situation.
I realise Massdrop is not exactly the place to be discussing stuff like this but so long as everything is civil I don't think there's any reason to be wary of where this went or may be going.
May 18, 2017
elFick
319
May 18, 2017
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VigrithI was referring to the length of the thread. I guess I'm just inherently succinct, which gives me no end of grief when trying to write papers based on word count... :)
May 18, 2017
exits
216
May 18, 2017
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Cheers, comrade.
May 18, 2017
Marutk
75
May 19, 2017
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breakerjumpI don't want keycaps with commie symbols on them.
May 19, 2017
schoolbus
1292
May 19, 2017
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Marutkok, but do you even know what communism is?
May 19, 2017
Marutk
75
May 19, 2017
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schoolbusYes, I was born in a commie country. There was no freedom and no democracy. I know someone who was tortured and sent to a prison for many years. He was political prisoner.
May 19, 2017
Child
16
May 19, 2017
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No, it's not like capitalism today, because (debatable) economic abuse cannot be compared to the monstrosities performed by communists in USSR and neighbouring countries. Ever heard about Great Famine in Ukraine? Tens of millions of people literally lost their lives or were tortured or imprisoned under this symbol. So don't say this just a symbol of "class struggle", unless by "struggle" you mean "the right to eliminate the other class by any means necessary". Which still would be ironic, given how many workers or farmers lost their lives due to this mad ideology. Propagation of communism is forbidden in multiple countries (and rightfully so), which should give you some clue.
May 19, 2017
exits
216
May 19, 2017
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ChildContemporary capitalism would not have been possible without the tens of millions of lives and the unthinkable amount of labor stolen for 300 years in the transatlantic slave trade and the systematic extermination of millions of Native peoples in North America, both of which have absolutely not-debatable economic ramifications for tens of millions of people in the United States today. There is really, to my mind, no good way of justifying capitalism as a global system. Individualism will be the death of us all. Stars and stripes forever.
The Great Famine was a disgusting tragedy. The Cultural Revolution was a disgusting tragedy. The Khmer Rouge was a disgusting travesty. The fact that Marxist political thought has been used to justify atrocities does not mean that atrocities are endemic to Marxist political action. Communism as a theoretical mode of production (in which the workers own the means of production) need not be blamed for communism as a political ideology that gives absolute power over everything, including life and death, to the government.
In fact, Socialist and Communist labor organizing efforts in the 19th- and early 20th-century United States are a major part of the reforms (child labor laws, the 40-hour work week) that changed capitalism from an obviously horrible mode of production (Marx's Capital vol. 1 is a great place to go for lots (and lots) of quantitative and qualitative data describing this) into one that seems like natural and inevitable. I'm also thinking of resistance to fascism in Italy, Spain, and South America. Furthermore, it stands to reason that multiple countries would forbid propagation of communism, because communism as I understand it would imply the dissolution of the nation-state as the dominant form of social organization.
I don't mean to discount your feelings about this. I know there many people from former Soviet Bloc countries who have memories they would like to forget. Is full communism impossible in the currently-existing state of affairs? Yes, definitely. But I believe it is something to strive for.
(Specifically, for anyone still reading, I advocate some version of the "solar communism" outlined by David Schwartzmann in a 1996 article in the journal Science & Society:
https://www.jstor.org/stable/40403574?seq=1#page_scan_tab_contents
Paywalled, but I'll happily share a PDF with anyone interested.)
May 19, 2017
elFick
319
May 19, 2017
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exitsWow, that's a lot to read and think about. It's a shame that your opening sentence ignores all the capitalist economies that didn't participate in the slave trade or extermination of native people in North America. Additionally, a (more or less) retail site probably isn't the proper place for your anti-capitalist post. Ironic though.
May 19, 2017
exits
216
May 19, 2017
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elFickMy first sentence does not ignore that. It claims that capitalism as such would not be possible without the transatlantic slave trade. Here's a (much) longer version of that argument:
http://www.chronicle.com/article/SlaveryCapitalism/150787
As to your parting shot, bless my stars! Turns out I'm a bundle of contradictions just like everyone else. I do not buy either of your attempts to dismiss my argument.
May 19, 2017
elFick
319
May 19, 2017
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exitsWell, if you are a communist, you couldn't "buy" my attempts to dismiss your argument anyway, right?
I was going to ask some followup questions, but honestly, I really don't care what you have to say and as Han Solo would put it, "... boring conversation anway."
May 19, 2017
ojrask
191
May 19, 2017
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froponesSomeone asked for novelties, here we are battling about genocide and symbols. :D
Thanks @fropones for sparking some good discussion (maybe unintentionally), which is what I think is needed around here. :)
May 19, 2017
exits
216
May 19, 2017
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elFickCool dude. Way to be an internet person.
May 19, 2017
Vigrith
4081
May 19, 2017
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Thing is, most people are not even thinking about any of that when they speak against communism or the horrors of political regimes in general - in this day and age, quietly disagreeing and quietly disapproving is almost frowned upon; if you don't speak against it, then people just assume you support it.
It has gone from "feel my pain", to "feel the pain of my ancestors before me", ultimately culminating in what now is "feel the pain of the ancestors of others whom I thoroughly read about on wikipedia". Historical accuracy and reminders of times past are only allowed if it were high times, not if they were (generally) low.
Everyone wants to speak out for those who suffered (and still do) unspeakable horrors, the standard "1 like = 1 prayer" mentality even though there is absolutely no need to broadcast how they feel about a particular event in time. There seems to be no discernible line drawn by some between saying something the novelties here are mass murder themed and advocating human rights when/where it actually matters. There's a time for everything, this was definitely not it.
May 19, 2017
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