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sl1pkn07
3
May 25, 2017
international kit without spanish letters(layout)? WHY!
climbalima
269
May 25, 2017
sl1pkn07Eventually the int kit would cost more than the base if you include every layout.
sl1pkn07
3
May 25, 2017
climbalimahow much?
climbalima
269
May 25, 2017
sl1pkn07How much? I have no idea, but with the amount of languages in the world, supporting all of them in a drop would be impossible. Spanish layouts are almost never supported i international kits. Mostly because the demand isnt there.
sl1pkn07
3
May 25, 2017
climbalima9 more keys for spanish layout
climbalima
269
May 25, 2017
sl1pkn07Ok so its a few more dollars? And how many more people would buy it? How many people would not buy it because of the price hike? It sucks, but gmk does not work well for international compatibility.
sl1pkn07
3
May 25, 2017
climbalima20 bucks more (like "Glorious Kit" (8 keys), more or less
near 500 millons of people (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_language) talk and write in spanish. Some will want to buy this keyset (include myself)
Orac
202
May 25, 2017
climbalimaEven fewer than do so now. The already very high price of the International kits is a deterrent to purchase. Nobody wants multiple unwanted keys for languages not their own, they want lower prices. So here we remain stuck in a catch twenty two.
climbalima
269
May 25, 2017
OracYeah there is no way to win. As a planck user most gmk sets are out of my reach, but thats the way it is
climbalima
269
May 25, 2017
sl1pkn07I dont think all 500 million want the set, so il link the last forum surey to get a better idea https://m.imgur.com/a/VR5ZF All spanish countries are included in the 9%.
Orac
202
May 26, 2017
climbalimaI don't believe there is zero hope, for a long time Cherry sold their boards with double shot in all the main European languages. Less than $100 including tax for a complete board with double shots, so we know we can get much better prices with bigger sell through.
One day the mech custom market will grow large enough for a bigger European fish to pay attention and put up some high quality sets for sale in their stores.
climbalima
269
May 26, 2017
OracI do agree. I want everybody to be able to get the keys they want. Wjen we are able to get those numbers we probably wont need groupbuys though :)
sl1pkn07
3
May 26, 2017
OracWhat model exactly?
Orac
202
May 26, 2017
sl1pkn07Bear in mind that Cherry stopped making the double shot keys themselves in 2011, and GMK purchased the tooling and molds. So if you want to find something from the original Cherry production you'd likely be restricted to used items with white on black, or black on beige keys.
My Cherry board is a G80-1800 which cost me something around $80-$90. Allow for the age, inflation and less favorable currency exchange rates, such a thing would probably cost $125-$150 new if it were sold now.
Maybe you could find something in a charity shop, pawn shop or office clearance. Otherwise post on r/mechanicalkeyboards (Reddit) or Deskthority (which is more European than Geekhack or Reddit) but those folk know the value of they keyboards, so you likely would not find a bargain there.
OracleKev
245
May 26, 2017
sl1pkn07> 20 bucks more (like "Glorious Kit" (8 keys), more or less This reference is way off base. Every new legend requires a new mold. I think Glorious Kit is one legend with 8 different color schemes. $20 is meeting the quantity of 150. Let's do a simple math on how much it costs for 9 Spanish keys. For the sake of simplifying the math, let's assume there are 10 unique new legends and each new mold cost $400 and 20 Spanish kits sell. That's $4000 divided by 20 kits. **$200 for 10 keys** just for the cost of the mold alone. This assumes that GMK waives MoQ requirements and provides free labor and material.
If you are really passionate about breaking the ice for Spanish letters, organize a group buy with more than 100 people (I forgot the exact MoQ for non-custom colors). Or simply you can commission your personal keycap set with your own $20K.
sl1pkn07
3
May 26, 2017
OracleKevif GMK got the molds from Cherry, and Cherry build their keyboards with spanish layout, the cost for the spanish keys is Zero (or only material + time of manufacturing, if you prefeer)
and yes, the math is simple: international keyset + 9 spanish keys = 57.99$ + "20"$ = +/- 80$ (without base, other 110$)
OracleKev
245
May 26, 2017
sl1pkn07Geez. I have no idea what GMK inherited and if it's still in working condition. Do you know? Don't you think that they would provide the additional keys if they could do that easily? It's more business and happy customers. I'm all for broader international support. I just wish you guys figure out how to get it rather than whine about it. All the things that are in place in the community that we take for granted, someone worked for it. There is no free lunch.
Orac
202
May 26, 2017
sl1pkn07"Time of manufacturing" - this is usually the major cost. Raw material tends to be only a very small part of the overall. Consider all the costs associated with owning and operating a factory, from buying and installing the machines, paying the staff, bank loans, energy and water rates, taxes, rent, building maintenance, security, plus a hundred other expenses. Good production engineers can know all this and calculate the exact cost per minute of their production line..
Every moment the line isn't running is cost without a return. I don't how many injection machines GMK can run simultaneously, but it's clear from the keycap sets they have to stop the machines and change the molds regularly as they can only do a limited number of legends simultaneously.
T0mb3ry replied earlier that GMK typically ask for a minimum of 150 keys each be produced, but for these special orders the minimum for the base kit is actually increased to 250 and in return GMK will reduce the minimum to 100 for some of the special keys, like those in the International kit.
However, the the European community mostly won't buy the $50-$60 (plus tax) International kits as they're too expensive. Right now, nowhere near enough Europeans are currently using Massdrop or participating in Group Buys to overcome the MOQ. The UK is the biggest part of the mech keyboard community in Europe, but even so is barely reaching 25 copies when a $5-$20 UK language kit is available. (see the dye sub PBT keysets)
Tax and shipping does complicate the issue, but the conclusion has to be: if under the current Massdrop system the UK can't easily support a language kit for itself, Spain has no chance at all. Basically we need a lot more Europeans to be aware that custom keyboards are a thing and have enough potential buyers to justify single language kits that can be sold at a more palatable price, at least 100 committed buyers per country/language.
T0mb3ry
2136
T0mb3ry
May 26, 2017
OracJust in case if people are speaking here about "Time of manufacturing" : To produce 1956+ Carbon base kits GMK's machines were running non stop for 4 weeks. Sorting was done by hand but i dont know how much it took for sorting. I heard only of many tables (~20) they needed for sorting and quite large number of employees.
rob_ger
410
May 26, 2017
T0mb3ryimpressive numbers, thanks for the insight T0mb3ry. are you in closer contact to GMK or where did you get that info?
Traktor
15
May 26, 2017
sl1pkn07The truth is, you'd probably be better off converting to an ANSI layout.
Orac
202
May 26, 2017
T0mb3ryI suspect it might not be something GMK would want to disclose, but do you know how many hours or minutes downtime there is while each machine is fitted with a specific mold? We could probably work back from the data you already have and come up with a manufacture time per key, then make an educated guess based on the typical MOQ, but if you already have that info...
crazycravings
48
May 26, 2017
TraktorI'm still using ISO. I just gave up on the idea of buying the IK for 2 caps
sl1pkn07
3
May 26, 2017
Traktorthe problem is not the ANSI or ISO. my main problem is i want, yes or yes, double shot type caps, and Spanish layout
none of the commercial mechanical keyboards i've found have this two requeriments at same time
for the record, the spanish keyboard needs (10, no 9, my math is little oxyde :rolls: ) :
| º ª \ | | · # 3 | | = 0 | | ? ' | | ¿ ¡ | | ^ ` [ | | * + ] | | Ñ | | ¨ ´ { | | ç } |
other keys can be use the international kit and base kit
T0mb3ry
2136
T0mb3ry
May 26, 2017
OracI dont have that data and if i would have it i dont know if i would be allowed to share it. Anyway lets assume you would know that. What would you do with that data?
Traktor
15
May 26, 2017
sl1pkn07I understand. And as others have pointed out, you are unlikely to get both. I'm just saying that if you compromise and learn to use an ANSI (or ISO) layout you won't have a problem finding keycaps.
OracleKev
245
May 27, 2017
T0mb3ryThat level of detail will let you figure out gross inefficiency in the molding machine operations. Furthermore, you can figure out how many and what duration of bathroom, coffee breaks and watercooler time they take. You can apply six-sigma methodology to point out exactly why they have not achieved mass production efficiency and pan-european legend support. Apology if this is offensive--couldn't resist...
I do have one idea for broader international support for future drops (everyone pretty much knows not much can be done for this drop). Recycling ideas from vintage Peacock keycaps and Cherry doubleshot keycaps with Cyrillic engravings. Can the international legends be done as secondary/tertiary prints? I've seen GMK keycaps with printed foreign character legends. Can GMK laser/silk print on keycaps with low cost? I wonder if they can do prints on user facing sides as well. Just an idea, not thought through, may be stupid. Just trying to help out our international comrades.
RageNorge
25
May 27, 2017
TraktorYep. switched to ansi on my first board.
Orac
202
May 29, 2017
T0mb3ryI have a few early, undeveloped ideas about potential strategies to expand the language options. It would depend entirely on GMK being serious about developing the market, but if International options are an annoyance that they suffer only to satisfy the relationship with the community, then I'm not sure anything can be done. However, if GMK want to expand their market opportunity and there some possibilities where we (the mech community) can help GMK mitigate their risk to actually do it, we could develop any ideas further.
Also, I already said it somewhere here, but any possibility to make the production options more flexible must go hand in hand with broader advertising, marketing and partnerships in the markets that have the most potential.
As for the data, I'm making some semi-educated guesses about the production system, but it would be interesting to know just how much the mold change and downtime impacts factory. If it makes minimal impact and other factors are the major contributors to the MOQ then perhaps it would inform which ideas are worth considering in more detail.
ideus
253
May 31, 2017
sl1pkn07You'd be better moving to US International PAL.
BitLuder
182
May 31, 2017
sl1pkn07I really wish that the different national layouts would all be closer to each other. That would save us from a lot of trouble. But I guess that change would be even harder for the industry, that the switch away from qwerty. :P
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