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Showing 1 of 12 conversations about:
Jaxnmarko
8
May 7, 2017
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Should we add other breaking and entering tools into the everyday carry or other sections? Sure, picking locks can be a hobby. And ethics are important. And guns don't kill people, people kill people. And temptation to use one's newly found skills might be stopped. Or not. In some states, even having lock picks in one's possession is a crime. A person can learn hacking skills. bomb making skills. Drug manufacturing skills. It doesn't mean they will use them. Just that they are prepared to use them. I don't think mentally impaired people should be able to get firearms. And we don't check to see who gets these tools. We may just be putting the wrong tools into the wrong hands, all in the name of... fun?
Pyro_hedgehog
63
Aug 4, 2017
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JaxnmarkoYeah, and we should ban knives from anyone right? Because stabbers are so common. We should also straight out ban the internet because it teaches people to much, and we should burn library's because of the freedom to learn. Look everything here can be bought elsewhere or made by hand so if you're going to do something illegal you can but for hobbyists you don't want to distroy the locks you buy from cheaply made picks scratching the internals.
hitemlow
4
Aug 4, 2017
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JaxnmarkoThere are no states in which lockpicks themselves are illegal. There are a few states where if you are picked up for trespassing while in possession of them, the charges can be bumped up to attempted burglary.
http://toool.us/laws.html
http://toool.us/laws.html
Jaxnmarko
8
Aug 4, 2017
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hitemlowSo why carry any? Do you not have keys for the locks you own? Will you Only help out someone you know well? Or will you personally verify someone owns the lock you are opening for free or operate as an unlicensed business or aid/abet in a crime?
Pyro_hedgehog
63
Aug 4, 2017
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JaxnmarkoI've repaired locks for friends and family and instead of drilling out the lock and buying new one. Knives arguable only have one use in the same way you say lock picks only have one use, cuting. But by all means keep going on about something you don't understand.
Jaxnmarko
8
Aug 6, 2017
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Pyro_hedgehogI happen to be a locksmith and have been one over 30 years, so of the two of us it is you that knows far less about locks, lock picks, repairing locks, drilling out locks, and what people with picksets may be likely to do. Telling me I don't understand simply shows your own lack of understanding. Knives have many uses other than as weapons. Lock picks are for opening locks that were locked for a reason. Maybe you replaced a latch, maybe you helped out someone that accidentally locked themselves out, but primarily lock picks are for getting into something that was locked on purpose in the desire to keep everyone that was not given a key, out. So by all means, argue about locks and lock picks with someone that has been in the business nearly 40 years.
Pyro_hedgehog
63
Aug 6, 2017
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JaxnmarkoOk so you're a locksmith, then what do you have against people learning this as a hobby? As well as that, you are a locksmith, you know it is faster (including the time to learn the skill) why would pick a lock instead of drilling the lock? Or throwing a brick through a window or anything else except pick the lock?
Jaxnmarko
8
Aug 6, 2017
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Pyro_hedgehogBecause I believe just as people with certain mental deficiencies shouldn't have easy access to guns, lock picks shouldn't be sold on the open market. Unless Massdrop is going to screen who the picks are sold to, they have a certain ethical and moral responsibility to what may happen with them. Someone gets burglarized, someone gets raped, someone has their car stolen.... Lock picks have ONE use. Opening something that was locked on purpose (or carelessness). So without permission, it is a crime. People are tempted easily. Is there any Good reason to start smoking cigarettes? Should Massdrop sell them? I express my opinion that I think promoting their use could cause harm to others unnecessarily, simple as that. You are entitled to your own opinion but it won' t change mine. I have seen the consequences.
Pyro_hedgehog
63
Aug 6, 2017
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JaxnmarkoOk I may just not have a creative imagination but how does selling lock picks lead to rape?!? Sure stolen cares that's always happened with a rock through the windshield and hot wiring. And anyone who will burguler will burgler, I repeat, it is far easier to just throw a rock through a window of being a hammer down on a lock then it is to pick the lock. On this mental illness point though, who decides what counts as an illness? What is the difference between a high functioning autistic person and your mad man? Who decides? Do you take the responsibility of deciding who can and cannot own weapons or lockpicks?
Jaxnmarko
8
Aug 6, 2017
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Pyro_hedgehogWhat happens when there is no responsibility? Landlords that don't rekey locks after a tenant changes risk someone returning and getting into a place. Landlords are required to provide "adequate security". Rape is a very possible extension of any breaking in. The enemy of any break in is noise and being seen. Lockpicks provide a silent method of breaking in as opposed to kicking in a door or prying one open. If people always treated each other well we wouldn't need locks at all. There HAS to be responsibility for civilization to work. Handing out machine guns and hand grenades to crazy people is probably not a great idea. For some people, just getting lock picks is also not a great idea. There are plenty of great hobbies a person can have that are just as challenging in overcoming a puzzle or obstacle. Blowing up stuff, which we did as kids was fun. Some people get hurt or die doing fun stuff. Some people move on to blowing up cats or banks. So we try to steer people away from things that might lead to bad things. Like picking locks for reasons other than as a hobby. Not everyone that uses pain pills uses them wrong. Right now there is an overdose epidemic. Why? They are easy to get and people fall to temptation. Lack of responsibility. I see no point in offering lock picks on Massdrop. Let someone else sell them. There are plenty of other items to sell or buy. Or msybe we should sell oxycontin to those of us who need some pain pills? What could possibly go wrong?
Pyro_hedgehog
63
Aug 6, 2017
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Jaxnmarkook I learned how to pick locks off of youtube and made my own set out of windshield wipers in about a week, I then picked a few padlocks and learned more and more as I went, so banning this from mass drop does nothing but shut your whinny ass up and take away the fun for people trying to join. As well as it being fun, it's easy and all because of security through obscurity, look at your every day master lock and you can understand what I mean, anyone can pick 4 pins all standard and without more people doing this the locks will never improve. Personally I believe everyone should know how locks and lock picking work so that there are better locks. But mr unelected fun brigade has to go out and keep everyone stupid.
Jaxnmarko
8
Aug 6, 2017
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Pyro_hedgehogI expressed my opinion from a very experienced point of view. You started an argument and have been name calling and insulting. It is exactly your type of temperament and immaturity that makes my point. Thank you.
Pyro_hedgehog
63
Aug 7, 2017
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JaxnmarkoYes I insulted you, this is read by many people and it gets boring for others if it is just point after point so I add a bit of humour. Ignoring the jump from "name calling" to robbery and other crimes, you haven't made any points about security through obscurity? You appear to have skipped it, is it because you have no rebuttal to it?
sprk1
232
Aug 7, 2017
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JaxnmarkoWhile I understand where you're coming from I think your argument is misguided bud. For starters crimes involving bypass tools where used in a bit over 6 percent of crimes and included lockpicks, but also included breacher bars, bump keys, etc... Realistically speaking, lockpicking is too slow and requires a degree of practice and knowledge that makes it prohibitive to use for even the fanciest of cat burglars. Compare this to the rate of crimes involving knives: 30 to 40 percent of violent crimes involve the use of a knife. Sure they have other uses (and I have a midsize collection of them), but they have a potential for criminal use much much larger than lock picks.
I carry a cheapo set in my car and have used it thrice. Once for a friend, once at work, and once when I was locked out.
That aside, what companies that sell lockpicks actually background check their customers? I can from experience tell you that most if not all don't. If the people that sell the most lockpicks and the ones that sell arguably the best quality lock picks do not do any background checks and sell freely and legally without restrictions then why should massdrop?
I carry a cheapo set in my car and have used it thrice. Once for a friend, once at work, and once when I was locked out.
That aside, what companies that sell lockpicks actually background check their customers? I can from experience tell you that most if not all don't. If the people that sell the most lockpicks and the ones that sell arguably the best quality lock picks do not do any background checks and sell freely and legally without restrictions then why should massdrop?
MswmSwmsW
125
Aug 25, 2018
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Pyro_hedgehogI'm a locksmith, too.
1. i personally don't have an issue with people buying a pick set. i think the other dude is trying too hard to defend his opinion.
2. it's called non-destructive entry, and it is always preferable to any medhod that results in damage to the customer's lock. think about it, if you call a locksmith and pay him 100 bucks to simply show up, but all he does is throw a brick through your window, how would you feel? and also, picking a lock is often times faster than drilling one. plus, it is a lot more impressive and professional looking, and less expensive for the customer.
1. i personally don't have an issue with people buying a pick set. i think the other dude is trying too hard to defend his opinion.
2. it's called non-destructive entry, and it is always preferable to any medhod that results in damage to the customer's lock. think about it, if you call a locksmith and pay him 100 bucks to simply show up, but all he does is throw a brick through your window, how would you feel? and also, picking a lock is often times faster than drilling one. plus, it is a lot more impressive and professional looking, and less expensive for the customer.
detro420
0
Aug 25, 2018
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JaxnmarkoPeople can buy lockpicks WITHOUT any sort of checks or requirements from hundreds of places with a quick google and will find them if they want, I think the comparison to guns is completely ridiculous. Also LockSport and picking for fun is actually a REALLY big hobby these days and for those of us in Information Security and especially for those us who perform redteam engagements and perform physical penetration tests - picks are a requirement.
It is also a fun hobby for many geeks and folks who enjoy puzzles, my wife picks while relaxing around the house to keep her hands and brain busy for example. I know most licensed locksmiths aren't too fond of the large and growing user base that pick for fun even when affiliated with very large and ethical locksport groups such as TOOOL because they assume people who like to pick are criminals (or working unlicensed which is worse imho). Though.... massdrop has knives which are much more likely to be utilized in a crime...a criminal isn't going to reach for a set of picks to take on a 5-6 pin deadbolt with some decent security pins, they are typically going to break a window, break the door in or utilize other destructive entry methods on the lock itself or find another way in. Keeping lockpicks out of the hands of everyone is essentially security through obscurity. It seems to be a common argument that comes up from people that have spent their lives making a career out of locksmithing when in reality, standard locking mechanisms have been around since the Sumerians and Egyptians and the tech hasn't really changed that drastically scarily enough, aside from them no longer being made out of wood. So do we just require a license to buy picks (which can be easily made at home from windshield wiper blades among other items) until lock companies actually acknowledge their vulnerabilities? Or can we put them on massdrop when they stop making locks that can be easily opened with kinetic techniques such as bumping and go say the way of Medeco and other high security locks that utilize REAL protection methods to prevent entry? You know, ones which are NOT easily bypassable by a jackass with a 5 dollar set of bump keys? Picks are picks...if massdrop was selling sets of bump key with guides, elevator and service keys, TSA master keys, large equipment default keys for industrial equipment etc., I might raise an eyebrow due to the complete lack of skill required for those items and would agree some vetting should be done for those types of items to ensure they are actual smith's or security experts. But really man, when it comes to picks, if a criminal is actually utilizing picks they are typically a quite a few levels above your average scumbag who breaks into peoples homes and they will get their picks REGARDLESS. Massdrop just helps make it cheaper for those of us who truly enjoy, love and appreciate locks and locksport. I know this is ranty and i feel your pain regarding unlicensed locksmiths stealing business and destroying the trust the public has in licensed locksmiths but comparing this to guns is just batshit crazy. This site is frequented by geeks who want mechanical keyboards so picks are kinda right up the alley of the people who visit this site. Anyway enough coffee, i'm done. Hopefully you can take this with a grain of salt and see it from the point of view of the hobbyist who has watched his 6 year old open sentry safe lock boxes in under 3-4 seconds with a popsicle stick...seriously. I apologize if this is taken wrong and have the utmost respect for your profession - but as I said criminals are going to get picks (if they know how to actually use them) if they want them regardless....why make it harder for the hobbyists when sparrows, southord and even serepick sell to everyone?
It is also a fun hobby for many geeks and folks who enjoy puzzles, my wife picks while relaxing around the house to keep her hands and brain busy for example. I know most licensed locksmiths aren't too fond of the large and growing user base that pick for fun even when affiliated with very large and ethical locksport groups such as TOOOL because they assume people who like to pick are criminals (or working unlicensed which is worse imho). Though.... massdrop has knives which are much more likely to be utilized in a crime...a criminal isn't going to reach for a set of picks to take on a 5-6 pin deadbolt with some decent security pins, they are typically going to break a window, break the door in or utilize other destructive entry methods on the lock itself or find another way in. Keeping lockpicks out of the hands of everyone is essentially security through obscurity. It seems to be a common argument that comes up from people that have spent their lives making a career out of locksmithing when in reality, standard locking mechanisms have been around since the Sumerians and Egyptians and the tech hasn't really changed that drastically scarily enough, aside from them no longer being made out of wood. So do we just require a license to buy picks (which can be easily made at home from windshield wiper blades among other items) until lock companies actually acknowledge their vulnerabilities? Or can we put them on massdrop when they stop making locks that can be easily opened with kinetic techniques such as bumping and go say the way of Medeco and other high security locks that utilize REAL protection methods to prevent entry? You know, ones which are NOT easily bypassable by a jackass with a 5 dollar set of bump keys? Picks are picks...if massdrop was selling sets of bump key with guides, elevator and service keys, TSA master keys, large equipment default keys for industrial equipment etc., I might raise an eyebrow due to the complete lack of skill required for those items and would agree some vetting should be done for those types of items to ensure they are actual smith's or security experts. But really man, when it comes to picks, if a criminal is actually utilizing picks they are typically a quite a few levels above your average scumbag who breaks into peoples homes and they will get their picks REGARDLESS. Massdrop just helps make it cheaper for those of us who truly enjoy, love and appreciate locks and locksport. I know this is ranty and i feel your pain regarding unlicensed locksmiths stealing business and destroying the trust the public has in licensed locksmiths but comparing this to guns is just batshit crazy. This site is frequented by geeks who want mechanical keyboards so picks are kinda right up the alley of the people who visit this site. Anyway enough coffee, i'm done. Hopefully you can take this with a grain of salt and see it from the point of view of the hobbyist who has watched his 6 year old open sentry safe lock boxes in under 3-4 seconds with a popsicle stick...seriously. I apologize if this is taken wrong and have the utmost respect for your profession - but as I said criminals are going to get picks (if they know how to actually use them) if they want them regardless....why make it harder for the hobbyists when sparrows, southord and even serepick sell to everyone?
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