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Slayer2003
28
Nov 14, 2015
Really nice watch, curios though as to why they went Hardlex instead of sapphire on the crystal, especially for that price point...
SpiritOne
719
Nov 14, 2015
Slayer2003In theory Hardlex is more impact resistant and can be made thicker.
Here is an interesting thread on the matter w/ good links and quotes from Ikuo Tokunaga, Seiko's chief dive watch designer.
http://www.watchfreeks.com/23-seiko/19488-why-does-seiko-use-hardlex-crystals.html
Quote below:
OK, I would explain the meaning more concretely.
The resistance to pressure which SEIKO1000m is virtually asked is at least 2000m or more. High-quality Hardlex of 4mm thickness adopted on 1000m clears this standard. On the other hand, in order to secure the resistance to pressure as same level as that of high-quality Hardlex (4mm) by using Sapphire, the thickness of about 3mm is required. Although both performances are same grade, Sapphire (3mm) is higher about the cost, therefore high-quality Hardlex (4mm) is superior to Sapphire (3mm). -- Incidentally, the thickest Sapphire that SEIKO uses now is less than 3mm. The resistance to pressure of Sapphire (less than 3mm) is inferior to that of high-quality Hardlex (4mm) --
Then, how about the Sapphire of 4mm thickness? Compared with the cost of high-quality Hardlex (4mm), that of Sapphire (4mm) rises very high. However, about the resistance to pressure and the durability of Sapphire (4mm), it exceeds that of high-quality Hardlex (4mm). In order for Sapphire (4mm) to exceed high-quality Hardlex (4mm) also at the point of cost performance, we have needed to reduce the manufacture cost of Sapphire (4mm) further.
In recent years, with producing various kinds of PROSPEX watches, the adoption of Sapphire glass has been promoted, and so many Sapphire glasses of 2mm or more thickness can be manufactured stably. By the improvement of manufacture technology which is related to it, SEIKO has succeeded in reducing the manufacture cost of Sapphire (4mm) to a half of that of 1986. And this time, this Sapphire (4mm) has been carried on new 1000m professional diver’s watch.
One of the key concepts of the SEIKO’s watch making is "The highest cost performance watch in the world." As I mentioned before, SEIKO 1000m professional diver’s watch is one of a few saturation diving specifications watches in the world, and has the highest water-tightness and the air-tightness at a price of about 130,000 yen.
By this time’s model change, user’s cost goes up about 30,000 yen, but I judged that the cost performance of the new model exceeded that of the present model, by considering synthetically the merits, such as the further improvement of resistance to pressure and durability, the materials of the world highest performance, user’s attachment to Sapphire glass, and the other various elements.
At the meaning above, yes, I am confident that Sapphire is better than Hardlex.
Sorry for the long message, but I hope this is helpful for you and other S&C Forumers. Sincerely yours,
Ikuo Tokunaga
Tigole
464
Nov 14, 2015
SpiritOneThat's a really long-winded way of saying "sapphire is better, but it costs more."
I think this is a better quote from the link you posted:
"Seiko makes their own sapphire crystals.
The company found that when sapphire and Hardlex are of equal thickness, sapphire is superior in BOTH impact resistance and scratch resistance.
However, to make sapphire crystals of sufficient thickness for their dive watches (e.g., the same thickness as the Hardlex crystals currently being used), the failure rate (some crystals apparently come out with hidden/microscopic cracks that affect impact resistance and thus need to be discarded) makes them too expensive (in Seiko's opinion) to justify the incremental improvement in performance. Which is why Hardlex is used for all but the most expensive of Seiko's dive watch line (and the MM300 is NOT one of these models, which is why it still has Hardlex.)
This explains why Seiko does routinely use sapphire crystals in many of its mid-priced non-dive (dress, chronograph, etc.) watches. For a non-dive watch, a thinner (and thus cheaper) sapphire crystal can be used since impact resistance is less critical."
ZZ_UPenn
257
Nov 15, 2015
TigoleThanks. But how many people will actually wear the watch when diving? The Hardlex crystal is so much more scratch prone for routine usage. Frankly I am disappointed to see that in a watch that costs ~$1,500.
SpiritOne
719
Nov 15, 2015
ZZ_UPennI believe they use a higher quality Hardlex in these than their regular watches.
ZZ_UPenn
257
Nov 15, 2015
SpiritOneI hope so. But I have seen many Swiss dive watches with sapphire crystal at a lower price point. The fact that Seiko uses sapphire in their higher priced watches indicates that sapphire is better than Hardlex.
SpiritOne
719
Nov 15, 2015
ZZ_UPennDefinitely true at the same thickness Sapphire is better, just wanted people to be aware of the reasoning behind having Hardlex in this watch.
FatStax
105
Nov 15, 2015
ZZ_UPennIt doesn't matter if 95% of end users never use it as a drive watch. If those 5% who do take it diving have it malfunction during a dive, it could end up costing them their life. Seiko can't use a thinner sapphire that won't hold up to pressures simply because some customers won't 'actually wear the watch when diving'. That's ludicrous.
ZZ_UPenn
257
Nov 16, 2015
FatStaxCalm down please, and don't call me ludicrous. There is no reason for that. I am not suggesting using sapphire at the thickness that is unsafe for diving at 300 m, and I understand safety comes first. But customers may also want to be able to wear the dive watch at other occasions without worrying about scratches. If one pays ~$1,500 for a dive watch, is asking for sapphire too much? I am simply commenting on the price and whether it is a good deal. Are you suggesting that sapphire at any thickness is unsafe at 300 m?
Vaited
74
Nov 17, 2015
ZZ_UPennYes, you're paying $1,500, and sapphire would be nice, but there are other considerations as to why this watch costs as much as it does, hand assembly, not your standard grade in-house movement, monocoque case, certain fine details such as the brushing and polishing of the hands and edges, etc. Yes there are watches out there that the companies rate to 300m with sapphire glass, but get one with even a soon to be not as ubiquitous ETA-2824 and any sort of pedigree as a dive watch and it will run at least $1K, and will likely not have some of the unique features of this watch nor the heritage or arguably unique styling. It's a watch you either love or you don't.
Really, there's also something to be said for a good deal =/= to worth the price. I can't vouch for either as the former is based on many factors such as location, and the latter is based on perception and unknown manufacturing and R&D costs. Good luck in your watch hunt!
ZZ_UPenn
257
Nov 17, 2015
VaitedThanks for your thoughtful comment without being condescending. I am glad to learn something about this watch. BTW, ETA-2824 seems to be in many moderately priced watches. Will this movement be replaced by something newer soon?
Slot3
1
Nov 19, 2015
ZZ_UPennNot Vaited, but I can answer this! The 2824 is going to be around for a while due to its status as a workhorse movement and relative easiness to service. However, with the Swatch conglomerate artificially limiting the number of ETA movements available outside of their own brands (i.e. Longines, Certina, Rado, etc.), we're starting to see a number of companies migrating to Sellita or Soprod for their "Swiss" movement requirements. Likewise, many other brands are moving to Citizen Miyota movements. I believe Seiko also offers more than a few options in this category...
Vaited
74
Nov 20, 2015
Slot3Thanks for stepping in! In addition to what Slot3 mentioned, over the years the 2824 has seen many modifications which which keep its longevity going, see for example the Hamilton H-10 caliber.
If you by some chance meant will the 8L35 be replaced by something newer soon, the SBDX017 recently came out with it so most would likely lean toward no. And like other movements, it has seen small changes or upgrades over the years, i.e. the A, B, etc. designations, for which there generally hasn't been a release or change log.
Player-One
9
Feb 11, 2016
ZZ_UPennDifferent materials, different applications.