Showing 1 of 25 conversations about:
zep483
651
Oct 15, 2019
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Not sure how this competes sound-wise... but, in price comparison... 129 vs 399... Zen Dac by iFi is basically this, but smaller and less than half the price... just no screen...
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Oct 15, 2019
AmJosh
125
Nov 18, 2019
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Nov 18, 2019
zep483
651
Nov 18, 2019
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Measurments aren't all that matter (not to mention his flawed methodology)... and I've heard both now since I posted that... the zen is better and cheaper... especially with the GTO firware. Nice try though.
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Nov 18, 2019
AmJosh
125
Nov 19, 2019
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If you leave measurements out, all that that remains is opinion. You are entitled to yours and everyone to theirs. But measurements are consistent, and provide common language. Also, looking at the components, M500 is 2-3 generations ahead.
Nov 19, 2019
zep483
651
Nov 19, 2019
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none of which matters if it sounds better... but sure, presuming our hearing/perception lines up with what is being measured, but studies show that isn't the case... but yeah, if we were robots and not human beings I'd agree with you.
Nov 19, 2019
postwarscars
1078
Nov 21, 2019
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Link us some studies, otherwise that's a baseless claim. It's important to follow with context when you say something like that. Also, I would like to know how you define flawed methodology. What makes it flawed? In what ways does it fall short? Lastly, please do not profess your opinion as fact. We can't quantify if you're correct, so it comes off as biased.
Nov 21, 2019
zep483
651
Nov 21, 2019
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Nothing I said is opinion... sorry, if that doesn't line up with your expectations... do you have access to a research database? If so, I'd be happy to refer you, but you won't be able to access them just via google. Also mearements are just a guide for what to start to consider (but I wouldn't let it stop you from listening)... if ultimately you like something better you do you... its kind of like saying you like rocky road, but you shouldn't because its got too much gunk in it... and you should like vanilla... if you only care about measurements... that would be a hard life to live... and it speaks to a sense of insecurity.
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Nov 21, 2019
jaydunndiddit
3227
Nov 21, 2019
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Well, by not testing every feature, I/O, firmware, etc. we only get a glimpse of the total picture. That, and tests across the board aren't always consistent nor do we know if the same cables, plugs, wall warts, adapters, etc. are consistently used. If we are to always be objective and scientific, then these parameters should always be consistent. But, controlling these sorts of things outside of a lab environment is quite tough, even more so given the amount of time and customization it would take to do this across the board for the myriad of devices on the market. That, and subjectivity does play a role as our hearing is flawed and psycho acoustics play their own role as well. We don't have the hearing of bats or super powers, so most of the time, measurements truly don't matter as much as one thinks unless something is just plain broken. I mean hell, vinyl and tube anything are the gold standard for this. Humans like distortions. It's pleasing. Others like to look at charts that act as a placebo for them to enjoy their gear, which is fine too. The placebo effect is strong and constantly measured in the real world and applies here too. At the end of the day, buy what you can afford and enjoy your gear. If you were unaware of ASR or any other site and were enjoying the sound of a device, would measurements somehow nullify the enjoyment you've received thus far? Just because something measures better, doesn't means it justifies "better sound" to the end user. Measurements are neat but ultimately only a piece of the puzzle. All just my opinion, of course.
(Edited)
Nov 21, 2019
zep483
651
Nov 21, 2019
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Very well said Jay!!!
Nov 21, 2019
postwarscars
1078
Nov 21, 2019
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You literally said "none of which matters if it sounds better" and "the zen is better and cheaper" which are the exact definitions of an opinion. Your take on the sound of a piece of equipment is not a fact, and you should never refer to it as such. If I don't have access to this research, how do you? How do we know it's accurate? Why should we take that claim at face value? Because you said they've done them, but haven't seen the evidence or conclusions? That makes no sense, and shouldn't be considered valid. Anyway, I asked these questions because nothing you said holds weight. Being as it may, you're not incorrect that we should listen to what we like, not because measurements dictate success.
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Nov 21, 2019
postwarscars
1078
Nov 21, 2019
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I'm not taking issue with his opinions, so much as the ways in which he stated them, or offered no reasonable assistance to his claims. None of what you're talking about is something I am really arguing with. I own/have owned tube amps so I know how all of that goes. I still own a Lyr, which I do use with tubes and solid state alike. So none of this is lost on me. My issue here wasn't the measurements (unlike in the airist thread), but the language and absence of context.
Nov 21, 2019
zep483
651
Nov 21, 2019
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I have plenty of access to it... I'm a researcher... so I have access to data bases... most people don't have that luxury. Ultimately, what sounds good is measurable through gathering data about subjective opinion. Subjective opinion is different from what is measured often though... this is a fact that we live with in research. For example, as Jay pointed out, the human brain often prefers distortion and different elements of it. That is not opinion, there is plenty evidence of this, and if most people conclude it sounds better than that is presumed to be the case... but hey you seem to be caught up here. Focusing on one guy's measurement... trying to label my statements as opinions rather than what they are... I'm just not going to get caught up about it with you anymore, sorry. Also, I don't owe you any assistance to my claims when they are reasonably well understood and regarded... very entitled of you to suggest that it should have been there, rather than just ask like reasonable human being for information... you're just trolling and I'm done engaging.
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Nov 21, 2019
postwarscars
1078
Nov 21, 2019
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EDIT: you know what, words are clearly wasted on you. But if we consider being reasonable saying "it's better, nice try though" to someone, then I guess you're as chivalrous as the rest of us aren't you? Also, for God's sake, stop using ellipses every 5 words. It's a chore to read.
(Edited)
Nov 21, 2019
zep483
651
Nov 21, 2019
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Words aren't lost on me... entitled trolls are though...
Nov 21, 2019
postwarscars
1078
Nov 21, 2019
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Ok... I guess asking for clarification is trolling... but why use the English language... when you can be a disingenuous fuck and put words in their mouth... then say they're entitled...
Nov 21, 2019
zep483
651
Nov 21, 2019
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You didn't ask for clarification... you told me not to do something that I did not do in an accusatory fashion... you need help with your people skills bro if you didn't intend for that to be the case.
Nov 21, 2019
postwarscars
1078
Nov 21, 2019
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That is not even remotely what I did. Nor did I talk about measurements, "bro," but you still said I did. I asked you for sources to your claims, which you refused to provide because I'm "entitled." You behaved like a total child towards another user, yet want others to somehow treat you with dignity and respect? Please. It's ok to be a hypocrite until someone calls you out on it, right? I guess that makes me a troll. The funny thing about manners is you need to possess them to critique them.
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Nov 21, 2019
zep483
651
Nov 21, 2019
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actually I think you behaved like the total child so... have fun up on that high horse you think you're on. you did not call me on anything... maybe something you made up in your own head.
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Nov 21, 2019
jaydunndiddit
3227
Nov 21, 2019
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I was responding back to your quote: "Also, I would like to know how you define flawed methodology. What makes it flawed? In what ways does it fall short?" I was just staying why ASR and other sites are good for some context but not the whole picture. That tends to get lost around here since that sites touts itself as "objective science" but does a poor job on controlling standards from one experiment to the next. Maybe I'm just being nitpicky and expecting too much, but I think the points I raised about equipment standards amongst other things was rather apt. There are just a TON of ASR junkies around here and it all gets old after a while when 95% haven't even heard the equipment they bash so openly yet have so many strong opinions about them. Not saying you do, just that many others fall in that niche and it gets tiring when just trying to have a conversation about this hobby we share. Especially when it comes to our individual subjective opinions.
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Nov 21, 2019
postwarscars
1078
Nov 21, 2019
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Sorry. I probably didn't make it clear that I knew why you replied how you did. That's my fault. I probably said in a previous thread that I'm more critical of DAC measurements than headphone amp ones. I read ASR, but I don't agree with every assertion made (mostly in relation to enjoying tube amps). I'm less bothered by people saying R-2R DACs sound better than Delta Sigma, but when you say a poorly performing DS is better I think that gets into some weird objective argument territory (after all, DS are supposedly touted to be more accurate). I think some of the points made about cable and power supplies are largely moot (unless they are somehow way off spec), but I entirely agree that standards need to be met in tests, and should stay consistent. I also agree that you shouldn't always be dismissive of something you haven't tried, which I've probably said is why I don't try to profess things if I have no background in them. Frankly, one of the reasons I avoided any confrontation with you is because I know you're one of the more reasonable posters in the forums. I didn't want to come off as condescending, you know, because I actually respect how you treat others here.
Nov 21, 2019
postwarscars
1078
Nov 21, 2019
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I know you are but what am I? Holy shit, are you 5?
Nov 21, 2019
jaydunndiddit
3227
Nov 21, 2019
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Well, thanks for the kind words. I so try to be reasonable as best I can but I do have my moments, ha. And no worries about being confrontational, was just enjoying the conversation personally, and our tangents. My background is in engineering although my day job is marketing now, so testing and iteration amongst other things has always appealed to me. But I do digress a bit about the talk and DS, as I have used and still use daily the iFi nano BL and xDSD. Both of which, measure mediocre afaik but sound more pleasing to me and my preferred gear at work than my SMSL su8/sh8 stack or O2/SDAC stack. Both of which, I know measure better, but when using the Campfire Solaris, I would pick the nano or xDSD everytime. Now, switching to harder to drive cans then yeah, my "big boy" desktop stacks definitely start flexing their proverbial muscle a lot more and frankly pull far ahead. But as an IEM guy, especially at work and on the go, iFi kills for my needs and equipment amongst their filters and other features and build quality. Yeah, I know it's highly situational, but something that gets missed all too much. And honestly, despite the lackluster measurements, it just sounds good. Especially streaming MQA from Tidal or DSD tracks. Hell, even using Bluetooth and LDAC from my ES100 and D50s sound great enough 95% of the time when I'm not half a bottle deep in scotch and just enjoying the music to worry about that extra 5% bump in fidelity. I mean shit, I have the R2R hooked up to the ZDT Jr. with the Elex playing the new Star Wars game and it sounds really great. Going by that thread and how folks at ASR feel about tube anything, I feel like saying that would make their heads explode as I should be using an Atom and D50 stack because "measurements." 🤷‍♂️
Nov 21, 2019
zep483
651
Nov 22, 2019
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Holy shit you obviously are.
Nov 22, 2019
JJayJJ
461
Nov 22, 2019
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ASR folks (count me one of them as I agree more with their sentiments than any other), aren't concerned with what people think sound should sound like. They're concerned with fidelity. When that is taken care of, then you can "color" your sound any way you want with software. Imagine photographers doing their editing in Lightroom with JPEG's instead of the Raw file format. It's simply illogical if you want any semblance of consistency in your operation.
Nov 22, 2019
jaydunndiddit
3227
Nov 22, 2019
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I think you're missing the point here. I own this unit, and many others that measure "objectively" well and other not so much. You argument is still a moot point as how does one go about the sonic and mental enjoyment one gets from tubes or vinyl? Hell, I watch and game in 4K and Atmos at every opportunity but will still pop on a pair of headphones despite in not even getting close to recreating that 3-dimensional space of my loudspeakers and subwoofers. But somehow, I can still find great pleasure in listening to a flawed, sub-standard experience by all objective means as headphones can not recreate what speakers can do. Which is fine as it's a different flavor especially when you talk about JPEGs vs RAWs as loudspeakers vs headphones is an appropriate equivalent sonically especially considering how tracks are mastered amongst a vast majority of mediums. Context is key and that's really my only point in all of this. I mean come on. There's no way sound is ever going to sound "as it should" since we all hear differently in the first place. Let alone consistency is something that ASR is still trying to get their bearings on. They still don't really have standards as I've stated before when going about scientific experiments. Which is fine. This is a hobby and the measurements are as such unless done under ideal conditions across the board for all equipment which it is not. And color the sound with software? Come on dude. I'm using my iFi tube buffer with the THX789 and d50s as I type this with the Solaris and it's jammin. I don't need need measurements to tell me anything more than what my foot does as it taps furiously to the tunes. We're humans with flawed hearing holes and one person's "perfect recreation of what the artist intended" is another person's idea of sibilance hell or muddy flat crap. Maybe if we all had the same hearing I would understand your plight but alas we do not. EDIT: And although I shouldn't have to say it, this is of course all just my own opinion. I get your plight and perspective, just humbly disagree.
(Edited)
Nov 22, 2019
JJayJJ
461
Nov 22, 2019
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Again, like most people in terms of the naysayers of the objective stance. You are simply not understanding the argument being presented. Let me explain fully. "But somehow, I can still find great pleasure in listening to a flawed, sub-standard experience by all objective means as headphones can not recreate what speakers can do." The first message I quote you seem to misconstrue aspects of taste, with aspects of objective purpose. One prime example of this is when people tell me the purpose of tube amps or SS amps. First off, the "purpose" of an amp by LITERAL definition is only to amplify the signal. The creators of amps made it specifically for the express purpose of what I just stated. No one came up with the concept of an amp to do ANYTHING else to a signal, and any other byproduct was seen as antithetical to the preservation of the signal (which is intrinsic to the definition if something was conceptualized for a single purpose, any secondary purpose is undesired, in the same way an amp that "colors the sound" isn't desired as an amp "used to cave someones' head in as a weapon"). Sure you can enjoy the flaws an amp has. No one is concerned with that, you have your own taste, and no one need berate anyone for that. The problem again, is the fact that for the express literal definition of what an amp was created for, any byproduct to such express purpose isn't a aspect of it's function (as I said, using the "amps do have other purposes" logic can be reductio'd to absurdity like using as a pretty decent weapon as well). This is THE BIGGEST flaw with communication with people. Everyone seems to not posses the ability to understand the conventions of language and just PRECISELY what is being spoken to them. It's alright to make a mistake with lapse in attention. But if after this explination of logical deduction of how we use words to describe things - and yet you still disagree with what the purpose of an amp is by definition. Then there is simply no discourse to be had with people on two totally different plains of how language is interpreted. AGAIN I repeat.. No one should berate you for preferences, or if you want to use an amp to color your sound, or if you want to use an amp as a weapon if you feel like. That's your preference, and taste is pointless to debate in matters of technicality. (Though I will say, you would get funny looks at least when you say you want your sound colored by hardware flaws, when DSP signal processing is so cheap now, and can get the coloration you seek out of software, so at worst you're just being inefficient buying a device that can only color sound in one specific way, when you can use software and tune to preference. That's just a bit weird in the same way it would be weird to want to take the longest way to work everyday or something of that nature, but there's nothing wrong with it, if you enjoy that I want to stress this greatly). "I mean come on. There's no way sound is ever going to sound "as it should" since we all hear differently in the first place." This is the second most pertinent thing I want to address. First off it's irrelevent of how we each hear sound differently in the first place as you put it. It's not that different otherwise people would think bass sounds like treble, or treble sounds like bass, and it would be a mess. Our hearing is close enough for the purposes of not being pendantic levels of ridiculous where you're going to start counting the amount of in ear hairs you have in order to say "SEE ITS IMPOSSIBLE THAT WE ALL HEAR THE SAME!!".. No one is concerned with that level of technicality. But lets say someone is being annoying to that sense. It STILL doesn't make a difference. When I talk about sound as "it should be", I mean the recording, not literal sound in an objective sense. If you have multiple devices, and multiple headphones, and speakers. Why on Earth would you want to start with a baseline where each amp/dac sound different, on top of the headphones and speakers. There is no semblance of order without doing idiotic amounts of expiramentation. Why not start with a clean signal from a device focused on preserving the fidelity of the recording itself? Why would you want a DAC to muddy up the signal first, and then the AMP, and then you have to maybe EQ for a specific headphone or something. As I said to others, there is a reason a photographer doesn't start editing photos with JPEGs and such, they use the file format with all the data intact from the recorded picture. Likewise audio processing, imagine starting off with an MP3 file to do your editing, and then converting it to AAC, and then to DSD for your DSD capable DAC. This is literally a spiting image analogy of what is going on when you do not preserve fidelity of the recording itself. Why would you want to never have the ability to hear what the recording actually sounds like? And THEN do your own corrections. But instead you're trying to do corrections on a distortion swamped signal? With fidelity preserved on a good performing audio chain, you can do whatever you want. If you ever want details restored, all you need to do is toggle your DSP. On awful performing devices, you can't "turn off" the awful inherent native performance and get those details back or something. This is why it doesn't make any sense to me. So when I say "sounding as it should" I mean't removing as many obstacles that prevent you from hearing the actual recording itself with all of it's information preserved. I didn't literally mean "HEY LISTEN BUD I say this is how sound should sound in reality, so do what I tell you". Please at least tell me you understand what it is I am saying here. You don't need to answer or address the methodology, I am only asking for confirmation of if you're aware of the logical rationale use to come to such conclusions. So are you at least understanding how this makes sense at the very least? Maybe then I can move on to quickly addressing all the other points you made.
Nov 22, 2019
jaydunndiddit
3227
Nov 22, 2019
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I was going to properly reply to your wall of text and realized all you have done is inject your personal opinion and try to pine it off as objective truth with a lot of baseless assumptions. Like I stated, I have the THX and the d50s. They're objectively great. But I like my distortions as they're pleasing to my ears. So why worry about DSP when I can get MY desired effect from analog devices? Let alone, what if my source doesn't offer DSP or PEQ? That seems very limiting when I have analog devices that serve MY purpose for all of my other gear. I'm not always tethered to a laptop when I am enjoying music. Especially when traveling or flying. How people like you forget that people have lives is beyond me and we all have VERY different listening scenarios. As I stated above, context matters and it seems lost on you. At least in regards to this conversation. I mean, you said it yourself. IF you want consistency. Maybe how I'm feeling today, I don't. I am a human and ruled by inconsistency. I guess I'll just accept all those funny looks as I and many millions of people on this planet enjoy our hardware flaws. Weird how something like that is so common. Super weird. And yet again, like I stated above, you people have such strong opinions about equipment you have never heard. Also super weird. But that must be your objectivity poking through. And your photography example is quite frankly, dumb. Again, more than just digital cameras exist and are VERY popular. And yet somehow, still manage to take amazing photos. Also weird. So, yes, I understand what you are saying here. I just disagree. And I don't really care. Especially considering your condescending attitude when I outright said the magic words, "this is all just my opinion." But I keep forgetting reading comprehension is hard for folks that seem holier than thou. And for the record, maybe I just don't care about "maximum fidelity" in a given moment and just want to tune out and listen to some tunes? Or like I stated with my above "stack of distortions" with the Elex, just use my Force powers and smack things with my lightsaber while relaxing and playing some Star Wars. If you can't understand something so human and basic, then the issue is you, my friend. I don't really care to converse with you further about any of this. Continue to chop up and dissect my current and previous responses to your heart's content while yelling into the void as I don't have the energy to prove anything that I've typed out to "make sense to you." We get it dude. You have your very strong opinion about all of this and that's rad or whatever, but you're the only essentially telling people how to enjoy something per your "objective" proclivities because you "don't get it and it just doesn't make sense." Cool. So, you do you, as I'm moving on. Have a good one, either way. And I mean that. No hard feelings or whatever as we will never agree or understand one another it seems on this front. On that note, I am going to continue listening to my distortion boxes, enjoy their subpar performance as they lull me to sleep.
Nov 22, 2019
JJayJJ
461
Nov 22, 2019
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I was going to properly reply to your wall of text and realized all you have done is inject your personal opinion and try to pine it off as objective truth with a lot of baseless assumptions. Like I stated, I have the THX and the d50s. This is evidence that you either didn't read my post, or have literally no idea what I was saying. There was no opinions in my post to the relevant to the topics you raised in this reply. The whole post I wrote up, was asking a yes or no question if you fully understand what I saying. I didn't ask if you agree, I asked in various forms at the end to make 100% sure you knew that I was specifically asking if you simply understand what I wrote at all. And then you pull this hypocrisy, and simply refuse to even acknowledge even if you understood what I wrote. This logically can only mean you have no idea what I was saying (which is fine, and I now know the answer is "no" to my question about if you understand what I was saying). Or you simply have not read what I wrote. In an effort to demonstrate good will/faith, I am going to address yet again issues present you seem to repeated in your first post. You don't have to reply, and that's fine seeing as how you didn't confirm you understood what my prior post even means. I'm doing this in case you change your mind, or someone else reads this and thinks I am dodging. Also.. this will be my last post if you don't confirm (if you reply) that you understood what I am saying (AGAIN I am not asking you to agree, all I ask is confirmation if you comprehend what is being told to you). If you do reply with confirmation, then we can talk about points we disagree on. Like I stated, I have the THX and the d50s. They're objectively great. But I like my distortions as they're pleasing to my ears. So why worry about DSP when I can get MY desired effect from analog devices? Let alone, what if my source doesn't offer DSP or PEQ? That seems very limiting when I have analog devices that serve MY purpose for all of my other gear. I'm not always tethered to a laptop when I am enjoying music. Especially when traveling or flying. I explained to you, because going the DSP route is more rational/economical at the very least, and can be done to all devices consistently, without having to play the lottery on what sort of distortions are present on poor performing devices like tube amps for example. Also "your source not offering PEQ or DSP" is a bit silly in the modern day, but absolutely fine and possible. But that means you're loaded with money and can afford multiple different setups, in which case this whole discussion is pointless if your funds allow you to have so many devices, yet for some reason not a single source with DSP/PEQ. Again, not impossible, just a bit weird in the modern day in the same way someone saying they don't use the internet or have a cellphone, yet live in a major city or town even. No one is saying have a super computer strapped to your back along with your THX 789. This is a completely absurd strawman of my argument at worst, or a very uncharitable interpretation of what I was saying (then again you never confirmed even if you read or understood what I said, so it doesn't matter). As I stated above, context matters and it seems lost on you. At least in regards to this conversation. I mean, you said it yourself. IF you want consistency. Maybe how I'm feeling today, I don't. I am a human and ruled by inconsistency. I guess I'll just accept all those funny looks as I and many millions of people on this planet enjoy our hardware flaws. Weird how something like that is so common. Super weird. Interesting how context matters, I had no idea.. /s Also you give yourself a plausible context for examples in this reply. But then talk to me and attempt to retort my ideas with "but airplane rides tho". Super weird right?? And yet again, like I stated above, you people have such strong opinions about equipment you have never heard. Also super weird. But that must be your objectivity poking through. "Objectivists amirite? LuL" .. This isn't even an argument, at best a diversionary tactic, at worst an ad hom. Super weird how people do that when their arguments don't hold much water right? Super duper weird. And your photography example is quite frankly, dumb. Again, more than just digital cameras exist and are VERY popular. And yet somehow, still manage to take amazing photos. Also weird. Here's the first indication you read some part of my post and understood there was mention of photography. Beyond that, not much else it seems. I draw analogy, Raw file for post processing, vs compressed JPEG not something someone would do when editing photos when given the choice... You now talk about "digital cameras existing, very popular, amazing photos, much wow." The only weird thing here is your statement was meme levels of obliviousness. Next time you want to call something dumb, explain why. Dont start talking to me about what kind of cameras exist, or their popularity, or "amazing photos". Address the stupidity you claim exists in the analogy, not this non sequitur. So, yes, I understand what you are saying here. I just disagree. And I don't really care. Especially considering your condescending attitude when I outright said the magic words, "this is all just my opinion." But I keep forgetting reading comprehension is hard for folks that seem holier than thou. I think everyone even remotely reading this sees AT LEAST for the photography example, is that YOU HAVE NO IDEA what you're reading, or completely misunderstand what is being conveyed to you. Also "I don't care" is a lie, otherwise you wouldn't be replying. Also "condescending"? Are you literally insane? Look at the tone of your reply. You're 100% tone deaf if you think I an condescending. I approached you like I would a normal stranger on the street to talk to. Not like some raving lunatic that you seem to come across as now with lies and ad homs (to which I am now returning the favor with my own ad homs due to the sheer disbelief of your incompetency). And you're going to talk to be about reading comprehension lack? You're literally that - personified.. (or you're just lying, since that's the only other possibility I mentioned before, and if that's the case, then sorry for implying you have reading comprehension issues, but if you're not lying, then the criticism remains). And for the record, maybe I just don't care about "maximum fidelity" in a given moment and just want to tune out and listen to some tunes? Or like I stated with my above "stack of distortions" with the Elex, just use my Force powers and smack things with my lightsaber while relaxing and playing some Star Wars. If you can't understand something so human and basic, then the issue is you, my friend. "And for the record" that whole paragraph was irrational. It seems to imply none of your Force power smacking could ever happen if your audio wasn't "maximum fidelity" as you put it. Do you see how ridiculous your implications sound. Like "not being able to tune out, and listen to some tunes" isn't possible with hearing sound as true to the recording as possible. This is precisely why I ask if you understand what was being told to you. Just to gauge if you have any reasoning capacity. But then again, stacking distortions seems to go great, in that case, if you would honestly like, I have some DSP corrections i can convert for your music files (sorry I can't do it to your latest EA Star Wars game, or BFII or whatever Star Wars game you're playing atm). I can double, or heck if you want, quadruple the harmonic distortions so when you tune out next time, I presume you might imagine you're tuned out as if you hit some active substances with how tuned out these distortions levels will be. (Super weird right, how I also have a taste for the sound of older analogue devices right? You would think I am some "clean sound" lover under all circumstances? Judging people rocks tho amirite? Super weird!) See unlike your perplexing preference for distortion, fidelity has no actual downside in terms of listening pleasure. But who knows, maybe you think distortions are the same, maybe you'll let me convert your library for distortion harmonics that reach 0dbFS artifacts, can't have too much of a good thing for "tuning out" right? I don't really care to converse with you further about any of this. You said that before, and if the last time you said it wasn't confirmation of you lying. This now without any shadow of a doubt is 100% confirmation. Continue to chop up and dissect my current and previous responses to your heart's content while yelling into the void as I don't have the energy to prove anything that I've typed out to "make sense to you." We get it dude. You have your very strong opinion about all of this and that's rad or whatever, but you're the only essentially telling people how to enjoy something per your "objective" proclivities because you "don't get it and it just doesn't make sense." Cool. So, you do you, as I'm moving on. Have a good one, either way. And I mean that. No hard feelings or whatever as we will never agree or understand one another it seems on this front. Sorry but "having a good one" after the ad homs, the disrespectful start where you couldn't even at least confirm if you simply understood my first reply to you... is simply bs'ing me to my face in order to come across as if you're being reasonable. You don't get to keep the "reasonable" or "charitable discourse" high ground just by wishing me well at the end. That's just hallow nonsense. You also hypocritically talk about me having a strong opinion of stuff. Why you keep saying this I wish I had an idea. Let me demonstrate to you why this is a pointless and essentially dumb declaratory statement. 1) IF I didn't have "strong opinions" then my arguments would hold no weight, and anyone with serious and charitable discourse in mind would never engage with me with anything more than a comedic approach that they themselves wouldn't take serious. So how you figure strong opinions here are bad.. goodness only knows. 2) If I have "strong opinions", why would that be bad, and why would you need to mention it multiple times. The actual content of my post was place with very little opinionated interpretations, they were all logically substantiated. ALL of such substantiations were ignored, straw-manned, or hypocritically tone deaf when you addressed them, or simply due to your lack in comprehension, simply misplaced your own criticism like you did with the ONE attempt you made at the photography topic to which you miserably botched. So please, drop this "strong opinions" nonsense statements, they do nothing to further your argument. Also you come across as a hypocrit because you imply you don't have strong opinions. To which case you're simply mouthing off random nonsense if indeed you don't have strong opinions, or should have very little objection to folks shutting them down since you don't feel strongly about them. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Then you make the next massive blunder, by ascribing something to me to which if you read my post, I never said. And I can prove your fallacious nonsense right now: You say: We get it dude. You have your very strong opinion about all of this and that's rad or whatever, but you're the only essentially telling people how to enjoy something per your "objective" proclivities because you "don't get it and it just doesn't make sense. And my original post I mention multiple times: "Sure you can enjoy the flaws an amp has. No one is concerned with that, you have your own taste, and no one need berate anyone for that." AND "AGAIN I repeat.. No one should berate you for preferences, or if you want to use an amp to color your sound, or if you want to use an amp as a weapon if you feel like. That's your preference, and taste is pointless to debate in matters of technicality." There are two more pieces of evidence of you never read my post, or simply having reading comprehension issues that you -like the hypocrite you are- ascribed to me). And direct proof of the fallacious statement you made about "how I am telling people how to enjoy something". ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Cool. So, you do you, as I'm moving on. Have a good one, either way. And I mean that. No hard feelings or whatever as we will never agree or understand one another it seems on this front. This is the last part of your post, to which I can only reply: No thank you to your fake "no hard feelings" half assed attempt at reconciliation. Perhaps the most fake attempt at saving face I've seen in months and an attempt at making yourself seem reasonable. And the last sentence about "as we will never agree or understand one another", that is arguably your biggest blunder, and similarly to people who hold beliefs like yourself. My beliefs are ready to change at any time first off. Second, about understanding, I don't think I've ever done a better job at demonstrating demonstrably what someone who lacks understanding looks like (you in this case if you're not following). Again, we don't have to get along in order to humbly give interpretations. I still am ready to take back what I said about you not understanding most of my post (as some of it you did read and clearly demonstrate you either dont understand or are flat out lying). But there is still the chance I am wrong about a portion of that where I said in the begining you simply didn't read my post, so theres no way you could make a valid reply. Which of these is the actual truth. That doesn't concern me at this point. I won't pretend to care what kind of day/night you have by telling you to have a good one or bad one and risk looking fake. I'll only leave by saying, at least try to do people the favor of answering their questions next time you engage in discourse. Dont conjure a whole story of what you think they're trying to say. Do as I did and address EVERYTHING. THAT is how proper discourse with honest people is done. Not what you were doing.
Nov 22, 2019
postwarscars
1078
Nov 22, 2019
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Yeah, I fully understand the dynamics of social engineering, perception and psychoacoustics and how all of this plays into how we enjoy music. I'm in advertising so it's one of those things you just inherently learn after a while. I don't really have any issues with recommending something like the iFi, I think its feature set at its price point is pretty outstanding. And I mean there's plenty of times when a less-than-best will be perfectly fine for most users. I have an Atom at work, but the source literally is an iMac. But, I don't know, I probably would be hard pressed to say it's better than the M500, but I've also not tried either. My primary issue in all of these things really boils down to my dislike of non-corroborated statements being touted as fact (or users who act immensely haughty about their opinions). Without restarting the whole thing, that's sort of how we got here. I'm refusing to engage said parties further for obvious reasons. Also, you're welcome (I think I'm doing this backwards). Sometimes it's hard to seem genuine in text, because emotional context doesn't exist the way it does is speech. I can be very...dry in text (and overly measured) which is the exact opposite of how I speak. TL;DR: I think we see pretty eye-to-eye on all of this.
(Edited)
Nov 22, 2019
Tzamaz
40
Nov 22, 2019
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Yikes, you must be a giant asshole.
(Edited)
Nov 22, 2019
zep483
651
Nov 22, 2019
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This is so rich. And, I won't just stand by without setting you and the record straight. You saw a problem, where there was none... it is called projection buddy. Also as an advertiser you would know you don't need to cite sources for knowlege that is considered well known. To suggest I need to out of nowhere? This makes zero sense. Furthermore, you are so hypocritical to then pretend like you weren't the one trolling me! You need therapy... for real. We are here because you decided to "call me out" on something you perceived that wasn't even an issue for anyone other than yourself. You basically offended yourself. If anything, I was having the same issue you were with him using the wikipedia-like reference of Audio Science Reviews... but if you want to base your opinions on something like that... I can't stop you. What I can say, as Jay has already done so, is that his methods aren't that scientific. As a scientist, I took exception to this... but I don't need to write an article about it to explain that you. To assume so is very entitled. Also, if you are so well informed, then you should know how his reviews are not actually scientific, rather than me having to explain it to you. And, further, if you are so well aware of how psychoaccostics affect hearing/human perception... then why do you need me to cite studies anyhow? Again, I would have been more than willing to go do a literature search for you, if you could have accessed it, and would have asked like a human being; but instead you chose to act like a child shouting angrily into the void. So why don't you go do it for yourself? Your behavior and rhetoric don't exactly suggest or encourage others to help you. To then turn around and pretend that your behavior is somehow different is reprehensible. Why respond the way you did other than to be atagonistic? You basically admit to being attagonistic in a number of posts... like it is somehow justified to act that way. It is not, and was not. You then state later that you aren't being that way? You can't have it both ways. What you are saying does not line up with reality or your treatment of me/others. If you think it does you have no perception of your how your communication with others is being received by them. How about I call you out on that? Look inwards man, change your ways, and maybe consider things more before you hit the submit button next time.
(Edited)
Nov 22, 2019
postwarscars
1078
Nov 22, 2019
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Whatever you said is obviously more about personal vendetta than the conversation, so I didn't bother reading it. Here's a thumbs up, so you can feel fulfilment from the internet. 👍 Move on.
(Edited)
Nov 22, 2019
zep483
651
Nov 23, 2019
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Not personal at all man. I'm not personally upset at all. You aren't getting to me. I'm just trying to help you. You are obviously beyond that help and a waste of my time/breath; however. But, thats also somewhat beyond the point too, because the message wasn't really for you either insome ways. I suspected such a response (and an edited one at that... I saw the first one as well). As I said in the message it was to set the record straight, because I'm not going to let you bully, spin, or minipulate shit the way you're trying to do. I'm an assertive person, and if you continue to respond in an inappropriate fashion, I will continue to assert myself and not let you just get away with it. People need to know what is up (and if they didn't before now they do). It doesn't upset me... these are just facts. If you don't want to absorb the information/know what is up/help yourself... that's on you.
(Edited)
Nov 23, 2019
postwarscars
1078
Nov 23, 2019
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Move. On.
Nov 23, 2019
zep483
651
Nov 23, 2019
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(rolls eyes)
Nov 23, 2019
JJayJJ
461
Nov 23, 2019
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Yikes, do you have any points to the topic of contention or do you favor simply spamming with fortune telling about me being this or that?
Nov 23, 2019
jaydunndiddit
3227
Nov 24, 2019
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At this point, I think it may make more sense to just edit your comment and clearly state that yes, @JJayJJ, you are a massive gaping asshole. That way, they can't misconstrue anything further 🤗 That way, it easily rules out fortune telling as our super power.
Nov 24, 2019
JJayJJ
461
Nov 24, 2019
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And you're a liar that I've demonstrated you to be. AND someone just replying to another person without reading what they wrote and making up narratives as if you were addressing an imaginary person.. You're going to sit there in front of your screen along with your little friend who pathetically replies with a witty one-liner that means nothing, and then you have the audacity to throw ad homs at my face, calling me names, when you tried replying to my original post without reading it, or simply LYING openly.. and NOW telling me I'm asshole? Do you understand what level of lunacy you have to be under to make such a hypocrisy personifying statement like that?
Nov 24, 2019
postwarscars
1078
Nov 24, 2019
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It's fastest to reply here, so this isn't directly to you. As with what I said to the other guy, maybe we should ALL just move on. We are in flame war territory now, far removed from the original topic. At this point we could all use a drink and some quality time alone.
Nov 24, 2019
JJayJJ
461
Nov 24, 2019
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For me, I have nothing left to even flame if I wanted to (if and when I do lose my cool, I ALWAYS at least address and suppliment it with why I would be doing such, never just randomly out of the blue like some unprovoked lunatic runaway from the insane asylum). I'd literally make a hypocrite out of myself if I replied with simply flaming people. One thing I won't do is that, as that would be baseless and a conjured pretense (fabricated lie as a reason). But yeah, I won't reply to either of them even if they directly reply to me. Their posts are here for all to see with full accounting of the one I cared mostly about. Makes it easier for people who run across these folks in other places to know who to avoid or for what pitfalls to look out for. I'm perfectly content with that more than any flame could ever be. I'll take you up on the drink suggestion though. Jack straight will do it fine.
Nov 24, 2019
Tzamaz
40
Nov 24, 2019
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As long as I don’t have to drink with Ty Cobb. Protracted, insipid, and pedantic.
Nov 24, 2019
Tzamaz
40
Nov 24, 2019
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De gustibus non est disputandum.
Nov 24, 2019
JJayJJ
461
Nov 25, 2019
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Except if you or you friend actually read my posts, you would see "taste" was never up for debate, nor dispute, nor any sort of contention. Also, why are you speaking Latin?
Nov 25, 2019
Tzamaz
40
Nov 25, 2019
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Well, since Plato, the West has accepted that the brain prevents actual engagement with noumena so all that remains is phenomenological engagement with reality. Even science and empiricism is a phenomenological approach to reality. In a nod to wisdom older than either of us, I went ahead and used a Latin saying which captures the sense of this with brevity. My complaint with you is threefold: 1) You drone on and on as if we actually care enough about your opinion to wade through that much text, 2) you seem to equate the quantity of text to the quality of reason, and 3) you are ill mannered and presumptively combative. Wait, that is four things. Damn.
(Edited)
Nov 25, 2019
JJayJJ
461
Nov 25, 2019
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And now to address your illogical nonsense: 1) Personified hypocrisy, since before you numbered your ideas, you were already droning on, AND you actually read some of what I am saying. 2) You wouldn't know what I think for two reasones, the frist since you employ witty one-liners and define that as quality..In another language not common no less. And the second reason, you haven't read everything I wrote so your thoughts on the matter are invalid due to being ill equiped to have an opinion that's based on the wide reaching scope of a deduction you think you can validly reach. 3) And you're a hypocrite because you called me an asshole in your first reply ever to me, while I employed no ad-homs toward anyone until reciprocity was in order. So your declaratory statement of "presumptive combat" is something you committed when calling me an asshole in your first message to me. And finally the fourth 4) Your machinations are purely declaratory statements, none of which have any valid truth claim. You're simply SAYING some things are as you think they may be, yet offer no demonstration. You're also a hypocrite in two instances, instantly evaporating any semblance of reason for anyone to take you seriously for any prolonged period of time. And finally, you think you're witty, when all you're simply doing is literally spamming. But what could someone know of that, when he wants to offer opinions of people he admits to not care about addressing posts he has never read and openly admits to not wanting to read them, but simply still thinks any semblance of logic exists where valid complaint or praise could be leveled and considered rational? Your belief in brevity as some catch-all superior stance in this instance is precisely the downfall of any relevancy your posts have. Let alone the irony of your actions not lining up with your aforementioned feelings (like when you say you don't care, yet care enough to reply back). Yet you will still persist, not ever taking into consideration the topic of prior contention of which you had no part of, but of which you saw fit to interject with an ad hom. At least jaydun can say the things you say, and still have some semblance of rational justification because we were interlocutors. You have none as I demonstrated, simply because you are more of an audience member interrupting, more-so than ever being part of the pertinent topic that was occurring at the time. No amount of ancient philosophical machination will save you from the mockery you make of yourself in terms of hypocrisy, irony, and simply spam. But do go on with a reply telling me again how "you think I care to read what you wrote?" yet reply aimlessly to nothing in the same fashion of spam. I'll let you have the last words (unless of course you dare put yourself in jaydundidit's place and uphold his position on the original topic of contention, though I doubt you would, you're more concerned with throwing ad homs, not actual debate discourse.. who am I kidding, forget debate, you wouldn't even read anything as you say. Silly me thinking that you had any capacity for normalcy). The floor for conclusion is yours unless you do take up jays place nonetheless.
(Edited)
Nov 25, 2019
Tzamaz
40
Nov 25, 2019
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Comment hidden
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JJayJJ
461
Nov 25, 2019
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Welp, that's the end for me. Regardless of any level of truth your ad hom declarations may hold. Ive yet to see someone so deluded into thinking they can marry patronizing and ridiculing someone and still walk away thinking they hold any semblance of being considered sane. But like the coward I called you out to be, you take the same old road of the comedian you fancy yourself to be, yet only manifest more like of clown than anything else. Since you didn't take up jaydundidit's cause (of course you wouldn't even after multiple chances). I have nothing of substance to even add anymore. I've fully summarized the mockery you've presented in your time in this thread. I feel satisfied moving on for good. Regardless of what your next reply is, this one will be my last, lest I risk hypocrisy as you've suffered - especially so in your prior correspondence.
Nov 25, 2019
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