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bojenkiens
0
Jun 16, 2016
These honestly look hideous and I seriously question their practicality in the kitchen.
JonasHeineman
5987
Jun 16, 2016
bojenkiensCan't argue with aesthetic preference as that's subjective, but a world-renowned knife maker put a fair amount of research and design into these, as you can see in the video on the page. As a point of reference, what knives do you use regularly in your personal or professional cooking that you think would perform better at this price point? We're always glad to check out the competition.
silasio
7
Jun 16, 2016
JonasHeinemanCutco. They're actually phenomenal knives. I prefer them to my Henckels and Wusthofs.
Akkuma
37
Jun 16, 2016
JonasHeinemanhttps://www.amazon.com/Victorinox-Fibrox-Straight-Chefs-8-Inch/dp/B008M5U1C2 is pretty much the bar for knives and affordability. What I find funny is that the type of steel used is nowhere to be mentioned. This is pretty important to anyone serious about knives.
I myself have both it and the bread knife, along with a petty and gyuto http://japanesechefsknife.com/TenmiJyurakuSeries.html#AogamiSuper
JonasHeineman
5987
Jun 16, 2016
AkkumaTotally agreed, we'd be glad to reach out about making these available. We ran these back in 2014 but haven't been able to make it work since then. TBH, market prices on these are pretty low already and I'm not sure if we could offer them at competitive prices, but we'll try!
Shenanigans
175
Jun 18, 2016
JonasHeinemanI really really wanted to like these knives. Ken is a very accomplished designer when it comes to folding and "tacti-cool" knives and I totally dig his intent to design and produce quality USA made kitchen knives with some cross-over appeal to people who where fans of his non-kitchen knife designs. However, here's the thing: being a good pocket knife designer no more makes someone a good kitchen knife desinger than being a good death-metal drummer would make someone a good orchestral violinist.
A really masterfully made kitchen knife is waaaaay more nuanced and complex and difficutlt to make than it appears at first glance. Fractions of a mm in blade thicknes and tiny degress change in edge or handle angle can make trenedious differences in how the knife performs and how the user feels after using it to make thousands of cuts in just one shift. The best kitchen knives are often the product of a lifetime (or in the case of generational Japanese smiths: serveral lifetimes) of refinement to both design and craftsmanship.
One of the first somewhat counter-ituitive things that you learn about good truly erognoic kitchen knife design is that the more "curvey" and "ergo" a handle *looks* the less versitile and more limiting and restrictive it actually is. Even putting asside the considerable differences in hand-sizes and proportions from person-to-person, different types of cuting motions require different hand positions.
One of the first things that you learn about blade dimesions on kitchen knives is that while every bit is important, the thickness of the steel right behind/above the edge has perhaps the most dramatic impact on the way that the knife actually cuts. Thick behind the edge = poor performaces. If you get that bit wrong, then no mater how sharp you get it or how well-formed the rest of the bade is, the knife will always take way too much force to make a cut and will possilbly just flat-out fail when cutting some things like carrots because the carrot will actually snap before the knife completes the cut.
I got the chance to take the full range of these knives for a test-run at a local kitchen shop and they failed miserably on the two very basic design and construction elemets that I mentioned above.
Ken did stop by the largest, most active kitchen knife forum on the net soon after these knives where released in an attempt to promote them, and when he was met with honnest, very respectful, but constructive criticims, he reacted in the most defensive, arrogant, and childish manner that I'd ever seen from a bladesmith. Learning to be great at something new and over-come inital ignorance with knowlege requires humblness and the ability to grow from mistakes. Sometimes wild success and mastery of one thing can be the greatest barrier to becoming good at something new. Just like there are musicans who can play 20 different instruments well in many different styles of music, I've seen tactical or edc knife makers learn to make excellent kitchen knives, but they are the exception, not the norm. Mr. Onion, despite his name, is not one the exceptions. His kitchen knives are lemons.
Even if these knives where as wildy discounted as the drop somewhat missleading indicates, they still, in my option, would not be worth it.
As others have already indicated, even the humble fibrox would be a much better performer and value. Also, pretty much anything from japaneseknifeimports, japanesechefsknife.com, chefsknivestogo.com or the kitchen knife section of japanwoodworker.com is going to perform waaaay better and be a better value than the (notso)Funions. Good knives, especailly non-stainless ones, require some special use and care, so it's a good idea to do your homework or at least talk to one of the knowledgeable folks from thoes stores to find the best match for your needs and level of care you're willing to provide.
it-man
720
Jun 18, 2016
ShenanigansThank you for the review!!! Most informative
smallbit
1328
Jun 19, 2016
ShenanigansYou have said a lot of nothing but a clear counterpoint I would like to make to one of your few actual criticisms is the price. I checked around and each blade on this drop is at least 20 bucks cheaper than buying it elsewhere like Amazon.
But really 7 paragraphs and all that you said was, "I tested these out in a local Bed, Bath, and Beyond and they weren't sharp so I'm going to go online and piss on them." Really? Of course different sized hands are going to fit different sized handles differently. Of course a thick blade is going to make thicker cuts but will also last longer. Just because this guy Ken Onion crapped on your forum doesn't mean you should troll his products imo.
I bought 4 of these for my Dad for Father's day. He cooks 3 times a day for my Mom so we splurged and got him a basic set and saved quite a bit! They are retired and he enjoys cooking and is excited to receive these. Especially excited about the fusion and the 6 inch fillet knife. He likes the stainless part too and the coating. He said something about the Bubba Blade and how this should be similar. These are not samurai swords. These are everyday use items it seems and I believe they are even dishwasher safe from what I have read. Can you say that about a 200 dollar Shun which this is a quarter of the price? No.
Here is some good info on the BDZ1 steel that is used: http://www.zknives.com/knives/steels/steelgraph.php?nm=bdz1
And here is a decent product description: http://www.williams-sonoma.com/products/ken-onion-rain-series-chefs-knife/
Shenanigans
175
Jun 20, 2016
smallbitYou seen to be very emotionally invested in defending your purchase of this product. If they make you / your dad happy, then that's great, I'm sure that he will love them because they came from you and look cool like the "Bubba Blade". However, I'm a bit confused/ surprised by your level of insecurity , anger and your lack of reading comprehension that lead you to conclude that I was "trolling" and "said nothing". You also seem glaringly misinformed about a few things: 1)Please, never, ever put a kitchen knife in the dishwasher, and NEVER leave them sitting in the sink (dangerous for both knives and people). Stainless does NOT mean "abuse / idiot proof" 2) Thickness in the blade material right behind the cutting edge does NOT make a knife "last longer". The cutting edge will dull at the same rate as a better constructed blade, but it will be harder to re-sharpen (because you will have to remove more metal) and it will never cut as well even if the actual cutting edge is sharp (due to resistance and wedging from the overly thick section). However, the extra thickness in an area of the blade that should be thin, does make them cheaper / easier to manufacture as well as cheaper to support as they are slightly more tolerant to abuse / misuse. So companies that market to people who have little experience with good kitchen knives are less likely to get as many badly chipped edges returned because someone tried to ninja-chop a frozen hot-pocket.
I didnt just look at these in a case or read some marketing on the internet. I spent time with the actual knives in hand (not at bbb, but a locally owned shop that allows test-driving) cutting real produce (carrot, onion, potato, celery, tomato) . Again, I went into the experience WANTING to like them and considering buying one.
I explained 2 very basic and important elements that have a significant impact on ergonomics and performance. These are really not my personal opinion or subjective judgement, but truths that resulted from a few hundred years of people seeing what works and what doesn't (as well as physics and bio-mechanics). If you elect to substitute in your own version of reality based on some opinions your formed in your garage with a tv and protractor, then that is both your's and Mr. Onion's right.
My point in posting the review was not to troll or bash this product or invalidate anyone's personal taste / emotional connection to these knives , but done in the spirit of community that makes Massdrop great. I wanted give people who might not know much about kitchen knives something to think about before making a purchase based solely on the designer's name alone, snazzy marketing , or some description on the website of a national kitchen chain that peddles overpriced kitchen gadgets to ignorant yuppies.
smallbit
1328
Jun 20, 2016
ShenanigansI'm emotionally invested in reading through 7 paragraphs of bullcrap like a tire gets emotionally invested in a nail. Write me another story after reading this reply?
1) High carbon stainless is far more durable for the average consumer and would be the obvious choice when marketing to the masses. I would never put a shun or fancy 500 dollar knife in the dishwasher because those are hand hammered and a completely different steel. But these aren't those.
2) It most certainly does in my experience, although it isnt the point.
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I personally like a good chunk of quality steel.
This is my point though, you are painting it as a crap product because of the name on it (which seems to offend you when your points aren't legit criticisms but your personal preferences over what I am guessing was a demo knife in a local store which was probably dull as heck). They ARE your personal opinions, these knives have won awards ffs. You have said nothing objective or scientific. You aren't exposing the pinto gas tank problem here either. Sorry about the bad forum experience interacting with the guy though, sounds rough. But I'm not going to get trolled into a conversation with you about "physics and bio-mechanics" because I honestly don't think you have anything to say about either in depth since you didn't mention the granton edge/hand hammered like effect the rain etch they used gives the knives except in a follow up reply stating the etch is "goofy".
"The textured raindrop pattern is produced using a proprietary process designed to reduce surface tension and drag by creating multiple air pockets".
I like this deal. Good steel. Solid design. Solid reviews on amazon except for one person who seems to have left theirs soaking underwater for a long time for some reason. Good price, so your overpriced concerns about "ignorant yuppies" are out the window.
Shenanigans
175
Jun 20, 2016
smallbitLol what's the point of posting someone else's photo (from "cutlerylover's" youtube) of some poor knives that have been tortured to death on a grinder? Is that when you plan to do to these knives? I'm actually starting to feel sorry for them.
The knives where very new when I used them and had only been used by staff at that point. The factory edge was plenty sharp, but the point that you still aren't getting is, ironically about thickness; not sharpness.
As for the "goofy" Onion-flavored -rain etched pattern, yes "goofy" is 100% my opinion. But, having actually handled these knives I can say that the pattern is most certainly not comparable to hand hammering in appearance or functionality. A big problem with knives that are cut out from sheet steel and then see very little hand-forming (like these) is that sides of the blade remain very flat. The problem with dead-flat sides is that there's a lot of surface area in contact with the food and when cutting something like a potato, it will suction onto the side of the blade pretty fiercely. The proper way to counter-act that is by contouring the sides to break the plane and also create better cutting geometry. But that takes skilled labor and also starting with thicker stock (both of which adds cost) . The other option, is just to etch some angel tears on the sides and call it good. -It's not as effective (potatoes still stuck with determination during my test), but it gives the marketing team a chance to use works like "proprietary" and "surface tension" and goofs (my opinion again) on the internet a chance to show off their copy-paste skills of something they don't fundamentally understand, but think sounds good. -It's sort of like that episode of the Simpsons where Homer puts "speed holes" in the body-work of his car.
GarrettK
4
Jun 20, 2016
ShenanigansThat's nonsense. Everyone knows speed holes make the car go faster!
smallbit
1328
Jun 20, 2016
ShenanigansThe point is that it's easy to oversharpen and kill a skinny knife quick obviously. As I stated earlier, I like a good solid chunk of steel.
"The factory edge was plenty sharp"- Shenanigans (in reference to a demo knife in a store) lmao. Annnd I'm done here.
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Shenanigans
175
Jun 20, 2016
smallbitwrong gif, here lemme fix that for ya:
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smallbit
1328
Jun 21, 2016
Shenanigans"wrong gif" says the elitist ken onion troll. HAHA :)
ryan92084
181
Jun 21, 2016
AkkumaI'm a bit unsure if you are questioning the steel type of the victorinox or this drop. In case you were wondering about the victorinox it is generally accepted to be X50CrMoV15 steel. If you were talking about the type of steel for this drop then it was mentioned by a commenter before me and I'm sorry for wasting this comment. : P