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Telios
123
May 16, 2017
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Joomy
212
May 16, 2017
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Agreed it's not exactly great value compared with a Deuce of Spades, but Suluk makes excellent products. And keep in mind that the size L is a fair bit bigger than the DoS.
DannyMilks
4557
May 16, 2017
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The differences are a vast but perhaps nuanced, and I'm sorry that you missed them. But the picture is that the design is different, there is an option for two sizes, and it's made from titanium not aluminum. As for pricing, these are made by Steve of Suluk46 in Canada and shipping to US customers is a minimum $10. So, the shipped price is $45 and our price will be $31 plus $2.75 shipping. I understand that's still not as cheap as the simpler design of the mass-produced aluminum Deuce. Which, I'm not saying is a bad item at all - it's cool to see another small company making products in the US. And that one is available at REI now. However, there is plenty of room for both trowel makers, and the design is substantially different - at least as far as you can get within the limits of a 6" metal trowel.
ElectronicVices
2937
May 16, 2017
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A snarky response requires proper grammar/syntax to be effective...
Edit: Appears the post to which I was replying has been removed/deleted. Leaving this here as everything's pretty much permanent on the web anyway!
Edit: Appears the post to which I was replying has been removed/deleted. Leaving this here as everything's pretty much permanent on the web anyway!
DannyMilks
4557
May 16, 2017
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And sorry if my post appears ill spirited. Just trying to say they're both great products from good, small companies, and doubtful that either of them copied the other as they've both been around for years. Let's celebrate the fact that there are tools that make it easier to go in the woods :)
Telios
123
May 18, 2017
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The vast but also nuanced differences.
Like my high but low ladder.
Like my high but low ladder.
Cardamomtea
588
May 18, 2017
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DannyMilksDanny, just a head's up, I think all the DoS are now manufactured in Korea by DAC, no longer in Colorado (just checked latest reviews on Amazon). So that's another difference between the two, for people that care to have North American made products.
Joomy
212
May 18, 2017
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CardamomteaWhy does it matter whether something is made in Korea vs. Canada? If the DoS was made in the US/Canada it would be more expensive and you and everyone else that buys it would have less money to spend on other things, and also The Tent Lab would sell fewer of them, making less money. This way someone in Korea gets to make more money, The Tent Lab gets to make more money, both of them have more money to spend on other goods and services (some of which are North American) and you have the same product with more money to spend elsewhere. Artificially valuing something being made inefficiently in NA makes everyone involved poorer (on average). Yes, the actual manufacturer may lose out of nobody finds it cost effective to make products in their factory, but that's how markets work, and the capital (both human and $) ought to be allocated elsewhere where it can be better used.
SandmanBravo
123
May 18, 2017
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JoomySorry but I couldn't disagree more. Money spent at home stays at home {NA) and I try and buy American made products whenever I have the choice, even if it costs more. " Artificially valuing something being made inefficiently in NA makes everyone involved poorer " That statement is incorrect- how can keeping money in a local economy make everyone poorer? Not trying to troll but had to reply to this. I recently bought an American made Tarptent but could have purchased a cheaper import. As far as having more money for other things; if everyone supported their local economies= everyone would earn more & thus have more.
SandmanBravo
123
May 18, 2017
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CardamomteaI do care to have NA made products; thanks for the info.
Joomy
212
May 18, 2017
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SandmanBravo"As far as having more money for other things; if everyone supported their local economies= everyone would earn more & thus have more." This is the intuitive conclusion but it's false. If the product is the same then what you are doing by "encouraging" a company to keep its production local is simply increasing the price of the product and therefore decreasing the quantity of that product people can buy. Yes you are propping up local jobs to some extent but in the long run the local economy will suffer from this protectionism.
When production of something is moved overseas it's because it's more efficient (cheaper) to make that product there. Therefore the company making that product is making more money by selling either more of that product or the same amount at a higher profit margin. If that company is American then the investors and workers at that company make more money (or they expand and create more jobs).
Similarly on the consumption side, you the consumer are winning because you are getting the same product for less money, and also you have more money to spend on other stuff, including services and goods which are owned by Americans (like your local cafes). Also, some Korean workers and investors are now making more money, which they themselves can spend on goods, some of which come from the USA. Effectively, the world is now a "richer" place because the price of trowels has gone down: now more people can afford a cool trowel, more of the them are sold and the world is better off in aggregate.
You ask "how can keeping money in a local economy make everyone poorer?" Simply because if everyone bought only locally made stuff they would be paying a lot more for 99.99% of it, so they would have less stuff and be materially worse off. Very few places in the world are the best place to create anything, however there are lots of products and services which can't be easily moved around. By buying a cheaper trowel from overseas you're freeing yourself up to spend more money at your local establishments which are not susceptible to being off-shored.
The ones who do lose out are the workers and owners of the factory that used to make the trowel. But inefficient businesses shouldn't be artificially propped up. The workers and capital of that factory should be freed to go do something more productive elsewhere. Yes, unfortunately some will be left behind and that it why you need a social safety net.
When production of something is moved overseas it's because it's more efficient (cheaper) to make that product there. Therefore the company making that product is making more money by selling either more of that product or the same amount at a higher profit margin. If that company is American then the investors and workers at that company make more money (or they expand and create more jobs).
Similarly on the consumption side, you the consumer are winning because you are getting the same product for less money, and also you have more money to spend on other stuff, including services and goods which are owned by Americans (like your local cafes). Also, some Korean workers and investors are now making more money, which they themselves can spend on goods, some of which come from the USA. Effectively, the world is now a "richer" place because the price of trowels has gone down: now more people can afford a cool trowel, more of the them are sold and the world is better off in aggregate.
You ask "how can keeping money in a local economy make everyone poorer?" Simply because if everyone bought only locally made stuff they would be paying a lot more for 99.99% of it, so they would have less stuff and be materially worse off. Very few places in the world are the best place to create anything, however there are lots of products and services which can't be easily moved around. By buying a cheaper trowel from overseas you're freeing yourself up to spend more money at your local establishments which are not susceptible to being off-shored.
The ones who do lose out are the workers and owners of the factory that used to make the trowel. But inefficient businesses shouldn't be artificially propped up. The workers and capital of that factory should be freed to go do something more productive elsewhere. Yes, unfortunately some will be left behind and that it why you need a social safety net.
SandmanBravo
123
May 18, 2017
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JoomyIf that's how it works down under then good for you. It is not how it works in America. I speak as a self employed small business owner. Your logic that shipping production overseas to cheaper facilities makes the company at home richer is skewed. It only makes the white collar employees richer and squeezes the blue collar worker out of existence. And you are wrong in saying that if everyone bought only locally made stuff they would be paying more. If everyone bought locally sourced goods then the local businesses would flourish and prices would come down due to competition. The only reason many overseas companies can produce at lower rates is because of poor safety standards, low pay, and no benefits to the workers. As a consumer, I don't always "win" by getting the same product cheaper. I've seen time and time again where production was moved overseas and the quality went down. Example: Dana designs backpacks, when they stopped making as a cottage vendor and went overseas the quality dropped. The same holds true for Osprey & Marmot. I personally find the quality of small cottage vendors to be far superior to any mass produced item from a 3rd world country. This may not be as noticeable in a simple forged/milled item but more so for one that has more labor involved in it. Additionally I don't view buying local as a "social safety net". Again, my reason for replying wasn't to start a war only to share my (and many others') views.
DannyMilks
4557
May 18, 2017
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CardamomteaWow, that's news to me. The product photo on Amazon still shows "made in Colorado" - that's quite deceiving by The Tentlab. The comments date back several months without the photos being fixed. Yikes! I'm not saying the overseas version is inferior, simply that the company should be more forthright in the photos of their products.
Joomy
212
May 18, 2017
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SandmanBravoClearly I'm not going to convince you of anything. That's fine. And I agree that buying inferior goods from overseas can easily negate the benefits of having them cost less, but that's not what we're talking about here. We're talking about the effects of producing an identical item more cheaply overseas vs. more expensively in America.
It's definitely better for Koreans, it's definitely better for consumers, it's definitely better for The Tent Lab, and it's definitely better for the global economy. It's not better for the company and workers that lost The Tent Lab's business - at least not in the short term. The question is whether the good effects outweigh the bad effects, and whether the bad effects are temporary or not. Most economists agree that in the long run more freely participating in the global economy is good for a country - if not for every individual in that country.
It's definitely better for Koreans, it's definitely better for consumers, it's definitely better for The Tent Lab, and it's definitely better for the global economy. It's not better for the company and workers that lost The Tent Lab's business - at least not in the short term. The question is whether the good effects outweigh the bad effects, and whether the bad effects are temporary or not. Most economists agree that in the long run more freely participating in the global economy is good for a country - if not for every individual in that country.
SandmanBravo
123
May 18, 2017
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Joomy"We're talking about the effects of producing an identical item more cheaply overseas vs. more expensively in America. " -And you know that by living in America or speculating? " It's definitely better for Koreans, it's definitely better for consumers, it's definitely better for The Tent Lab, and it's definitely better for the global economy. " -It's only better for Koreans not Americans. -It's only better for Tentlab shareholders; not workers. It's not always better for consumers as I said; many times the overseas product is inferior. Participating in global economy IS good, but I've seen far too many golden parachuted CEO's & officials farm out labor only to increase their profits to the detriment of the local economy and the out of work employees. The common mindset is more for me and to hell with everyone else.
And I agree; I'm not going to convince you of anything as well; so, I'll simply say good day to you.
Joomy
212
May 19, 2017
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SandmanBravoNot to drag this out but I'll just address a couple of points that you seem to be hung up on. First, the fact that I'm from Australia has nothing to do with it. This is macroeconomic theory which holds wherever you are. Second, again, what we are talking about is an identical product, so quality is not a concern.
You agree it's better for Koreans because you can understand the first-order effect of there being more jobs in Korea and fewer in America. What you seem to be missing are the second-order effects, which are:
A) products bought by Americans are now cheaper, which means American can afford more useful things which make their lives better.
B) The Tent Lab makes more money, potentially expands and adds more jobs. The Tent Lab doesn't make their own products, they contract out manufacturing to another company. That company may lose revenue but The Tent Lab gains revenue and grows (and by the way, if they didn't do this, some other trowel company could easily come in and sell an equivalent product for cheaper and undercut them)
C) Because resources are now being allocated more efficiently, the global economy prospers, which affects everyone on Earth, making things cheaper, creating more jobs, etc. Again, the hyper-localised effects (on individuals, towns, cities) are hard to determine and some Americans will definitely lose out, but as a whole the US and NA economies, and US and NA workers as a group, will be better off than before.
The reason it's hard to see is that the benefits are spread out widely throughout the economy whereas the losses are highly visible lost jobs and failed businesses. But the overall effect is positive for American citizens. If you still disagree then all I can suggest is to read a bit about macroeconomics.
Sorry to harp on about it, and this will be my last reply on the issue, but I think it's pretty important especially in the current political climate where people are increasingly suspicious of globalisation. Putting arbitrary restrictions on where goods are made makes every nation poorer in the long run and does much more harm than good.
You agree it's better for Koreans because you can understand the first-order effect of there being more jobs in Korea and fewer in America. What you seem to be missing are the second-order effects, which are:
A) products bought by Americans are now cheaper, which means American can afford more useful things which make their lives better.
B) The Tent Lab makes more money, potentially expands and adds more jobs. The Tent Lab doesn't make their own products, they contract out manufacturing to another company. That company may lose revenue but The Tent Lab gains revenue and grows (and by the way, if they didn't do this, some other trowel company could easily come in and sell an equivalent product for cheaper and undercut them)
C) Because resources are now being allocated more efficiently, the global economy prospers, which affects everyone on Earth, making things cheaper, creating more jobs, etc. Again, the hyper-localised effects (on individuals, towns, cities) are hard to determine and some Americans will definitely lose out, but as a whole the US and NA economies, and US and NA workers as a group, will be better off than before.
The reason it's hard to see is that the benefits are spread out widely throughout the economy whereas the losses are highly visible lost jobs and failed businesses. But the overall effect is positive for American citizens. If you still disagree then all I can suggest is to read a bit about macroeconomics.
Sorry to harp on about it, and this will be my last reply on the issue, but I think it's pretty important especially in the current political climate where people are increasingly suspicious of globalisation. Putting arbitrary restrictions on where goods are made makes every nation poorer in the long run and does much more harm than good.
Cardamomtea
588
May 19, 2017
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JoomyOh boy didn't mean to start such a discussion, though it was sure interesting to read :-) I actually didn't say that it mattered where the DoS was produced, I was merely correcting some outdated information... but now I need to correct myself. According to their website, some are made in Colorado, some in Korea. I suspect it being widely available (REI, Wal-Mart..) had something to do with this (perhaps their local manufacturer couldn't ramp up production that quickly?) Also, retail companies need their cut, so that also encourages outsourcing. For the record I am Switzerland, and staying neutral on this one :-D
Cardamomtea
588
May 19, 2017
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DannyMilksThe information on REI's site is correct, states imported and picture of trowel shows no origin info. I've never sold on Amazon, so I'm not sure how easy it is to change product photos. And after visiting Tentlab's website tonight, looks like some might still be made in Colorado.
Eranon
3
Aug 12, 2017
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Telioshttps://www.amazon.com/dp/B00UTK5HJ0/ref=asc_df_B00UTK5HJ05118857/?tag=hyprod-20&creative=395033&creativeASIN=B00UTK5HJ0&linkCode=df0&hvadid=167131408724&hvpos=1o1&hvnetw=g&hvrand=9095024274962644531&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=m&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9026804&hvtargid=pla-308859130683
Both are .6 ounces. I hadn't realized that.
Both are .6 ounces. I hadn't realized that.
ElectronicVices
2937
Aug 17, 2017
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JoomyYou articulated Macro Theory quite well. Sadly taking the long view isn't a thing with a large portion of my compatriots. It doesn't surprise me in the least the respondent taking the opposing view was a small business owner.
smallbit
1328
Nov 5, 2017
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JoomySo it's like, Reaganomics was actually a good thing because the sweatshop owners and foreign manufacturers that benefited off the 1%'s outsourcing of American labor had a greater and more positive global socioeconomic impact than if murican's kept their yobs?
American trickle down economics was good for... China thus good for teh world?
That's just madness sir. Who do you think you are, Arthur Laffer ?
American trickle down economics was good for... China thus good for teh world?
That's just madness sir. Who do you think you are, Arthur Laffer ?
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