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Kbs666
19
Mar 30, 2019
Real Damascus steel would not have that stainless steel look on the reverse side. Also Damascus is always ridiculously expensive. $185 is not that high for a decent Japanese Sashimi knife, the good ones typically run over $1000. I simply do not believe any of the add copy about this knife or the company that made it.
Kavik
5531
Mar 30, 2019
Kbs666Not that I'm defending the company, I have no experience, and have only read (some not so great) reviews on them, but... It's a good thing when the "damascus" is cladding over top of the solid core steel. Unless it's some super high end stuff, that's not really what you want on your actual edge. In this case, since this is a single bevel knife, that would mean one thicker layer of VG10 for the back side, with the "damascus" only on the front side.
Kbs666
19
Mar 30, 2019
KavikDamascus should never be clad over something else. When done that way over the life of the blade and much handling and honing/sharpening the Damascus pattern would wear off. You're basically arguing in favor of cheap blades not the quality and appearance people expect when they see "Damascus steel."
Kavik
5531
Mar 31, 2019
Kbs666First, let's stop saying Damascus. It hasn't been a real thing for ages. It's pattern welded steel (gonna call it PWS so i don't have to keep typing that) . If you're accepting that anything modern is true damascus then you're opening up the gates for any PWS of any quality to be included in this conversation. Since that's what your saying you want to avoid, let's move away from that right now. It's marketing BS, nothing more. With that in mind: I will agree with you 100% that this is not a great looking patterned steel. However, beyond that I disagree completely. About the ONLY thing PWS IS good for is cladding. If you use that as a core steel then you're dealing with an edge that has 2 or more steel types of different wear resistance, leaving a wavy, microchiped edge as you use it. This is not what you want. The general statement that anything that uses cladding is indicative of cheap, or low quality, though is just absurd. There are so many reasons why cladding may be the right way to go, and it's certainly not a cheapskate, corner cutting way to manufacture a blade. As for "wearing off" the cladding, how the heck are you handling your blades?? Lol Cladding should always stop short of the final edge, therefore: Honing will have zero effect on the cladding. Sharpening will have no immediate effect, until you've sharpened it so many times that you've moved the edge back far enough that you've either moved into the cladding, or just in general it's time to thin behind the edge. At which point, sure, you have to push back the Shinogi line. There no reason you're ever going to be wearing down the flat surface of the face of the knife. But all this is completely normal blade maintenance, whether the knife is monosteel or clad, whether it's a cheap knife or a $5,000 knife. If you live long enough to push back a Shinogi line so far that you have no cladding left, then the knife has long since outlived its usefulness. Do some more serious research, and pay less attention to the marketing of those $1,000 "damascus" blades you're comparing to. Research advantages of san mai construction, it has many valid purposes, regardless of whether or not PWS is involved in the cladding
Kbs666
19
Mar 31, 2019
KavikI'm not a metallurgist. I'm a retired chef. I've owned a lot of knives in my life and I've never owned a good clad blade. The blades in my kit I still use day to day are single material blades. They're not all super expensive, my go to chef's knife is a Fibrox that cost, IIRC, $30 but they're all top quality. The problem with any clad blade I've ever owned was that they simply couldn't survive the use a chef puts a knife through. The last clad knife I had the misfortune to own was a Japanese style fish knife, not dissimilar in design to the one we're talking about. To cut fish cleanly and precisely the blade must be kept razor sharp and no matter how careful you are and how frequently you hone that means regular sharpening and one day, after maybe 3 years of use the guy who did the sharpening for me said he couldn't do anything with it anymore as he was through the useful steel and into the core material which was useless. That was a, again IIRC, $250 blade. So I broke down and spent a big chunk of change on a real quality Deba and Yanagiba pair that cost me nearly $1500 total. I own one modern Damascus knife which is a 10" Chef's knife but it is strictly a decorative piece. It's a Bob Kramer and as it was a gift when I retired I have no idea what it cost but rumor has it his blades run well over $1k.
Kavik
5531
Mar 31, 2019
Kbs666Well man, I'm sorry to hear that happened to you, but what that tells me is that your sharpener didn't know how to properly deal with a single bevel Japanese style blade. Unfortunately that's not an uncommon thing, i can't tell you the number of examples I've seen of horror stories with sharpeners ruining single bevel knives in this style. If you still have it in a drawer somewhere, it could probably be saved. When you have some time to kill take a look at this video here from Japanese Knife Imports https://youtu.be/WYZmtDlwDi4 In this video he talks a bit about all the parts of a single bevel blade, talks about the construction of a clad blade a bit, and then talks about the process of single bevel sharpening specifically. How moving that shinogi line up at the same rate as the material you're removing from the edge is important not just for keeping the edge away from the cladding, but also for maintaining the geometry of the knife to keep it performing as intended. Again, sorry to hear you got burned by an uninformed sharpening service, but the clad blade can't really be blamed for that
Kbs666
19
Mar 31, 2019
KavikNaw. He definitely knew what he was doing. Came highly recommended. I know for a fact he sharpened knives at several high end sushi places. I've had other chefs say bad things about clad blades. We're not talking about light home use but heavy day in day out use. It might be fine to have low grade steel on the back of a blade that might only be sharpened a dozen times in its lifetime. My knives got sharpened every other month. A yanagiba in particular has to be razor sharp to be useful and so when you portion a lot of fish with it, we could not use wooden boards for sanitary reasons, it dulls quite quickly.
Kavik
5531
Mar 31, 2019
Kbs666Eh, I don't know what to tell you then. I just know plenty of high end blades use that construction, and many people have been using those kinds of blades for hundreds of years, often passing them down through generations... To say you wore down the knife to the point of it being unusable in about 18 sharpenings that were done by someone who who "definitely knew what he was doing" seems.....highly implausible. If that's as long as they really lasted, this style of construction wouldn't still be around ~700 years later
Kbs666I don't think laminated steel works the way you think it works. Either that or your knife was laminated in a way I've never seen or heard of before. It's a sandwich, not a ravioli. It isn't like a cheap harbor freight file with soft steel in the middle with only a thin layer of hard steel on the outside. It's like a steel sandwich with a harder, more wear resistant steel in the center with a second, softer, tougher steel on the outside to provide flexibility to the blade and/or a decorative surface. The edge is always formed by the core, so it makes zero sense for your knife to be used up because he was "into the core". Of course they were into the core, otherwise they weren't touching the edge.
Kbs666
19
Mar 31, 2019
NotsurewhyibotherNot talking about laminated steel. I'm talking about using standard knife construction for only part of the blade with a cheaper, softer steel backside or core.
Kbs666
19
Mar 31, 2019
KavikNo blade seeing regular use is around for 700 years. The knives you're talking about are show pieces or at least have been for centuries. Also keep in mind that centuries in the past cutting was always done on wood. The difference in how fast a knife dulls when used on a wood board over a plastic one is dramatic.
Kavik
5531
Mar 31, 2019
Kbs666I feel like there are fundamental things being misunderstood here. "Not talking about laminated steel. I'm talking about using standard knife construction for only part of the blade with a cheaper, softer steel backside or core." This IS the definition of laminated steel, multiple layers of different steels being fused together. "the guy who did the sharpening for me said he couldn't do anything with it anymore as he was through the useful steel and into the core material which was useless" I thought you had just misspoke earlier, and meant to have said "into the cladding" but you seem to have the definition of "core steel" backwards in your head. The "core" is the good steel that makes up the cutting edge. The "cladding" is the softer steel outsides Here, have a look at this graphic from ZKnives 
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close  For this single bevel knife we're talking about, look at the image on the right. No amount of sharpening is going to leave you with an edge that touches the soft cladding as long as you are properly thinning the knife as you go. If your sharpener brought your cutting edge back to the Shinogi line (where the cladding and the good core steel meet), then he did not know how to properly sharpen that knife. I don't care how many sushi restaurants he sharpened for, or how sharp the actual edge was, he destroyed the blade's original geometry. "No blade seeing regular use is around for 700 years." I never said a single blade was being used for 700 years. I said this type of blade construction has been around for approximately that long. You said your knife was sharpened every other month, and it only lasted you about 3 years. I'm saying that if this style of construction made a blade that could only survive 18 sharpenings, there's no way people would still be making them like this 700 years later. I've talked to people who touch up their knives daily on stones, and actually sharpen them ch more often than every other month...I've never once heard any of them complain about using up a knife in under 3 years. Do you still own the knife in question? I would love to see what it was, and what the blade actually looks like, to clear up some of this confusion. It's quite possible that it could still be repaired if you were willing to consider the possibility that maybe it wasn't really done properly originally
Kbs666
19
Mar 31, 2019
KavikNo. I know what laminated steel is and a clad knife is a different thing entirely. Laminated steel uses thin, sub 1mm layers of material folded together to make a superior edge. A clad knife may or may not have laminated steel for the edge material. The cladding is not thin nor is it ever meant to be part of the edge. The knife this discussion started about has a laminated edge and a big hunk of much lower grade steel to form most of the knife's bulk. No, I returned that PoS for a refund and no, it wasn't sharpened improperly. If the manufacturer had thought that they would never have refunded me the purchase price. They simply said the knife wasn't meant for professional use, despite the price tag and that no where in their advertising did it say that and it was and still is being sold through professional suppliers.
(Edited)
Kavik
5531
Mar 31, 2019
Kbs666It's semantics, man. You started off calling that Damascus, what I was calling pattern welded steel, and now you're calling it laminated. By technical definition, san mai cladding could also be called a laminate with only 3 layers. Easy to get that confused when we can't seem to keep consistent terminology height throughout the conversation. The thickness of the core steel and the cladding will differ depending on the type of knife and the maker, so isn't really an indicator in and of itself. I have never in my life heard of a knife made with Damascus/laminated/pattern welded steel for the core/edge, then mostly cover with a plain steel cladding. That's completely ass-backwards to anything I've ever looked in any price range. You're still missing the main point though, what we're calling the core IS the good steel that should be the edge. If you're still maintaining the sharpener told you he reached the core steel and couldn't go any further, something is still quite fishy. How about this: for my own curiousity then, can you tell me what brand of knife we're actually talking about? Because what you're saying still isn't making sense unless it had some very unusual construction that doesn't match any clad blade I've ever seen
(Edited)
Kbs666
19
Mar 31, 2019
KavikI called it Damascus because that is what the manufacturer called it. Maybe you have no idea of the different kinds of cladding being done. I can't name the brand because I literally don't remember it. As to having never heard of a knife made Damascus style with a plain steel cladding, the knife this discussion is about is that. WTF!
Kavik
5531
Mar 31, 2019
Kbs666My mistake, i guess I assumed you still knew what the knife was when you specifically claimed the knife not only was, but **is still** being sold by professional suppliers...but I guess that was just more nonsensical claims 🙄 But, seriously, dude. Are you freaking high? The knife in this drop is a VG10 CORE with Damascus CLADDING. It is NOT a Damascus core with plain steel cladding. Jesus H Fuuuu....i can't even. I'm done. Trying to educate someone who is soooo determined to ignore every single fact laid out in front of him...it's no longer worth my time. Enjoy your $1,500 pair of monosteel knives, and continue staying away from the clad stuff. They'll have longer and safer lives in the hands of people who are willing to learn about them and treat them properly.
Kbs666
19
Mar 31, 2019
KavikYeah this is starting to be absurd. You think you know knives and you may know how they're made. I used knives to make my living. I've probably got more time hands on with more knives than anyone who isn't also a chef. When I was working my most valuable single investment was my knife kit, I never owned a car that cost more until after I retired and starting doing something that made more money. I've still got knives that are just fine after 20 years of daily use. You seem to believe that just because you choose to not believe someone could have had a bad experience with a low quality knife that makes my experience invalid. Strangely my opinions are shared by pretty much every chef I ever worked with. I literally only bought the bad knife in question because a serious slicer is so expensive and $1k on a chef's salary was a big hit.
Kavik
5531
Apr 1, 2019
Kbs666Yeah, but, this conversation is specifically about the construction, not about knife skills or how much time spent with a knife in hand, how much you've spent on knives, or where you make your living. Couldn't care less in regards to this particular conversation. I wasn't discounting anything. I asked you for details about the knife to find out if it was a weird issue with some poorly made blade. You couldn't provide that info, so there was nothing more that could be explored there. I think it's safe to assume that the knives you have had for 20 years that are still in good order are not single bevel knives, from the way you've talked about things. I'm curious, after 20 years of sharpening, have you ever thinned those? Or just keep sharpening back the bevel? You were a professional chef who didn't sharpen his own knives, doesn't understand their construction, and is unwilling to take 5 minutes to learn the terminology that was spoon fed to you here in this thread. I am not claiming to know more than you in knife skills, there no reason to think i would. But, based on this conversation, I am fully confident in saying I know more about how those different types of knives need to be sharpened and maintained over time to keep their geometry intact. As much as you want to brag about the money you have in your knives, and the time spent with them in hand...I have more money into sharpening equipment than kitchen knives, and more time spent on studying sharpening techniques than time spent on a cutting board. I'm confident in the information I've provided you, do with it what you like.
Kbs666
19
Apr 1, 2019
KavikActually my experience is very relevant because we're talking knife durability and wear. No one uses knives like chefs do. I also found this particularly ridiculous, "You were a professional chef who didn't sharpen his own knives" sharpening knives properly is not a side job. It requires expensive and specialized equipment. If you think I'd run my knives through one of those pathetic table top "sharpeners" you clearly don't know anything at all about caring for knives. All of which you admit yourself. But whether I sharpened my own knives which very few if any chefs do, we do know how knives wear and have far more experience with that than pretty much anyone else. As to knowing more about knife geometry? Don't be ridiculous. You tossed around terms and then changed your usage when that became convenient. For instance you tried to argue that the knife this thread is about doesn't exist when you thought it would prove your point "I have never in my life heard of a knife made with Damascus/laminated/pattern welded steel for the core/edge, then mostly cover with a plain steel cladding. That's completely ass-backwards to anything I've ever looked in any price range. " Yet there the knife is, mostly cladding material with only the "Damascus" material on the edge and show side. Further about geometry, if you really want to get into the pros and cons of 15 versus 30 degree bevels and blade scalloping we can but since you openly admit to not having the knife skills to intelligently discuss these matters I doubt you'll come off very well.
KavikYeah. That's why I enjoy asking taxi drivers to explain how transmissions work. I mean, who drives more than they do? You might think they confused a clutch with a torque converter but that's just because you don't understand the types of transmissions that have both. Because they totally exist, in fact they're common!* *No examples will be provided, just trust them. They drive a lot. I mean really far.
Kavik
5531
Apr 1, 2019
Kbs666"sharpening knives properly is not a side job. It requires expensive and specialized equipment. If you think I'd run my knives through one of those pathetic table top "sharpeners" you clearly don't know anything at all about caring for knives. All of which you admit yourself." Show me where I said anything about pull through sharpeners. Or 'admitted myself' that I don't know anything about caring for knives? Lol this is getting sad...your not only twisting around your own words, but now trying to put words in my mouth too? C'mon 🙄 I could list for you the sharpening equipment I have, but it wouldn't matter anyway, you don't listen. Since all you see is the dollar signs as signs of quality, suffice it to say my collection of sharpening equipment out-values your 2 fancy expensive knives. It absolutely could be a side job, but I don't need one of those, so it's just a hobby and something I do for myself, friends, and family...but just because something isn't a career doesn't mean it must be half-assed. "For instance you tried to argue that the knife this thread is about doesn't exist when you thought it would prove your point[.....]Yet there the knife is, mostly cladding material with only the "Damascus" material on the edge and show side." For the last time, the knife in this drop does not have a Damascus core and edge. It has a VG10 core/edge. The Damascus IS the cladding. This is where you're lacking the fundamental understanding of the structure of a single bevel knife, or the core concept of the terminology needed to have an intelligent conversation on this topic....even though I provided you with a picture of a cross section of the knife, and a video that explains it in detail. Here it is one more time, with descriptions added, and all unrelated parts of the image removed, so as not to confuse you
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What I mentioned about maintaining the geometry of the blade had nothing to do with the bevel angle at the edge. (edit: I talked about maintaining the geometry surrounding the shinogi line, or the blade road. Between the face of the blade and the final edge, there are three distinct facets that need to be addressed any time you remove material from the edge. That's just for the front, then you also need to address the back of the blade as well. In total, 4 separate planes to be honed and polished each and every time, with the Koba (or micro bevel) creating the final bevel angle that you're bringing up now) But interesting that you should mention that... If you get that specific in your requirements to your sharpener, can you tell me what he did on the knife that was ruined? -Total inclusive bevel angle? -specific angles per side? -can you say whether the edge's bevel was symmetrical or asymmetrical? For bonus points: -Do you know what equipment he used? -in all those sessions did he ever flatten the backside of the knife? If you actually have answers for these questions (at least the first three), that will answer a lot of the previous questions. This has been fascinating, by the way. Trying to put together a puzzle with missing pieces and a picture that changes every few hours. Certainly entertaining
(Edited)
Kavik
5531
Apr 1, 2019
NotsurewhyibotherLol can't say I've ever tried that....though, I've also never met a taxi driver with the same size ego of any chef I've talked to either. They're definitely a unique breed 🤣
Kavik
5531
Apr 3, 2019
Kavik@Kbs666 Come on bud, don't bail on us now...we were just getting into some interesting questions that could potentially have some enlightening answers 😁
Kbs666
19
Apr 3, 2019
KavikYou again misrepresented my statement and then lied about the knife under discussion. Why would anyone bother you after that?
Kavik
5531
Apr 3, 2019
Kbs666I honestly don't know which statement you're talking about, I didn't intentionally misrepresent anything. That's exactly how I end up feeling about most of your responses actually, but I'm still here trying to help figure out your bad experience in the past, and help you learn more about the things you're looking at and commenting on here. If you're done, then i guess I am too. But, again, just because you don't understand something doesn't mean other people are lying to you. If you could be a little more open-minded and admit to yourself that you might have this backwards in your head, you might learn something here and be better informed before you try to sway other people's opinion about a product in the future
jaybop
9
Apr 3, 2019
Kbs666$60 for a VG10 knife is an INCREDIBLE price. Sure the damascus will be fake, but 95% of damascus is anyways. I have $200+ knives where the damascus is simply pattern etching, and the actual construction is clad which has other advantages.
Kavik
5531
Apr 11, 2019
Kbs666Oh my god, it actually happened!! 🤣🤣 Scrolling Pintrest and I happened across a picture of a Damascus core with stainless cladding! So surprised I had to revisit this conversation to share it So, yeah, this is what that combination would actually look like.
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(Kayne Custom Knife Works)
BenTWP
106
May 25, 2019
KavikI'm amazed you had the patience to talk with that guy so long. I'm hardly an expert on knives but it seems pretty clear to me that you're making a lot of sense and this other guy, well... Not so much. People tend to get dug in on the internet for whatever reason. The shelter of anonymity? The desire to lash out? Sheer hubris? Who can say why? Either way, looks like a decent knife to me. PS For what it's worth I'm a former restaurant worker myself. Chefs are an odd bunch, and often expect obedience (usually without question). Might explain some of our friend's behaviour.
Kavik
5531
May 25, 2019
BenTWPIt became a personal challenge lol
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