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How so? Just because it costs more than whatever cheap crap you bought from AliExpress doesn’t mean it’s a ripoff.
How about listening from a human if you think Frosty's ain't human?
Seems the "Diminishing point starts after you dismiss KZ as a brand" mentality is strong with you. Think of it as a ripoff or whatever, I honestly won't care. But you might wanna open your ears to listen to these some time maybe? Instead of being a very limited mindset person who refuse to try anything just because you're too scared it'll shake your belief
These are legitimately some of the best IEMs money can buy you. Trust me - I have tried over 150 iems with price points anywhere from $20 to $3000.
Talk after you have listened to these.
spending over 50 on ANY iem
seriously though, the more people actually spend outrageous money for an item's true worth, the more companies will do this ridiculous stuff.
But I also think super fidelity in portability is a meme and I use 20 year old sony earbuds for that vintage sound (I guarantee they sound better than these).
Worth is subjective. I know my iems and I do not factor in prices when I grade/rank them. I'm just saying that these happen to have a TOTL sound for such a low price point. They cannot obviously compare to open cans at a slightly lower price point, but as time goes by technology becomes better and people are willing to pay and chase for an objectively better sound.
You will start realizing that objectively better staging properties costs a lot in IEMs. You want a nice sound with a decent FR? Pay $300 and you're set. You then realize that $300 has A LOT of room for improvement for factors like soundstage dimensions, imaging, transparency, clarity and ultimately resolution.
oh no I understand the cost to performance perfectly.
We need an honest company to release iems that compete with ones like these in sound for fair prices.... say under 100 dollars. I would argue that value isn't subjective. That's like saying art is subjective (it isn't). There is high art, and there is low art. Women squatting over canvas and pooping out paint eggs isn't art, even if they and the entire academic world think so. Even if my opinion differs from the truth, or others' opinions do.... there is but one true path and true outlook (on everything).
Just leave him be
He's either being hella sarcastic or just misinformed. Regardless, $36.99 is point of hella diminishing return for him
Have you checked driver cost? Add to it the price for R&D and manufacturing? These are quite labour intensive
For what it sounds vs your MH1C it's quite a bump up. Seriously
By definition, value is subjective regardless of how you want to use it in your narrative. Instead of using art, cars would be a better analogy. What you're saying from a value proposition is that someone should be able to build a Porsche 911 that costs the same as a Toyota Corolla. And if they don't, the Porsche is somehow trash and anyone who buys one is clearly an ignoramus. And the company who can't build this economy Porsche is just out to gouge for money from consumers and take advantage of their goodwill. It seems like the crux of your argument is pretty misguided at best.
Also, how would a company go about creating a 6-BA IEM with CAD, making molds and test units, then tuning, soldering, cables, driver balancing, etc. while still paying its employees and distributors AND somehow make a profit for a $100 product? That doesn't even sound logically plausible.
I hate the car anology used outside of headphones, it doesn't mean the same for an IEM. RnD isn't nearly what you think it is, these guys make out like bandits in the night. I live near UE actually, can't say much more than that.
I know, I just couldn't resist. The ignorance was so strong I just had to say something.
What does you living near UE have to do with anything? Also, here's an interesting article just about their R&D for one of their speakers: https://www.whathifi.com/features/behind-scenes-ultimate-ears-rd-lab.
They show how they went through 15 models before coming to a finalized product. Last time I checked, that time, energy, and resources cost money which the company will offset to the consumer. Stop being so obtuse when you know good and damn well these are hard working people making products for us, the masses. They don't work for free but it seems your self-entitled self believes they should work for nothing and sell everything to you below cost.
You guys are so triggered I've never seen anyone so happy to be ripped off in my life
Nah, just sick of self- entitled assholes like yourself that want to crap on what others spend their money on. We get it, you're just too edgy and cool for us with your $50 earbuds. We're not worthy 😒
Prove to me that your "non-custom fit" 2000$ IEM are better than my 150$ IEMs There's a bell curve on which everyone not near the ends is an idiot . People who spend 80- dollars or 1800+ dollars are both the same idiot; One has more money, the the other has less, but they fit on the same graph. If you have enough disposable income to buy the Sennheiser Orpheus for 30,0000 USD then do it, otherwise you're just a sucker who thinks that 1800$ is a good investment for fidelity when your old ass cant discern the difference between loudness and clarity. If you want to waste money; buy a good studio room and invest in good speakers, stop trying to mimic the concert atmosphere with fucking IEMs that cost more than the shitty DAC on your phone.
Prove? How can one prove something that's so subjective? That's a waste of time. It easier just to see you for the intolerant, judgy individual that you are. You're the one that came here making outlandish claims, attacking others with no proof and making wild assumptions. That's all you've done is assume. If you have something to prove then provide your objective proof. Otherwise, you'll just keep looking like the malcontent that you're portraying 🙃
@jaydunndiddit False. I said the IEMs were a ripoff, you tried to "prove" me wrong, you failed, get over it, there's a sucker born every minute and one of them happened to be you.
Holy run on sentence, kid. It's somewhat hard to be a sucker when I don't own these. They're not my cup of tea. The only one that had something to prove here is you. We know you can't back up anything you claimed about WHY these are a rip-off otherwise you would've spouted that off by now. We get it, you're bitter and need to pound you chest at how others spend their money. You're playing the role of a malcontent perfectly 😊
So I take it you're the elitist objective idiot then? :D
Can't even call him an elitist objective idiot. He probably has not tried and directly compared (side by side) $150 iems and $1000 iems.
I have and the difference exists so you will pay 10x the price out of pocket. Not much of a difference. That and with how the technology is rapidly changing, an IEM loses its value so much quicker than a headphone. You're literally burning your own money and worshiping the act. It isn't even about whether or not you can afford something, either. My favorite headphones are my personally tuned HD250s, and they just turned 35 years old... I greatly prefer their sound over Ether C flow, HD800S, etc.......
but IEMs are never worth more than 200, period because they are inherently limited by what they can achieve given the limitations of an IEM itself. Soundstage will always be mediocre when compared to a similarly priced over ear. You're paying 10x the price for the last 5 percent of microdynamics... and another 500-1000 for the portable setup to actually squeeze that out. Because if you are running it out of your iphone and thinking it sounds better than a 200 dollar iem, you can't see past your own bias.
Good for you. I find value in iems that can squeeze out the very last quality of an audio track. You don't. Nothing wrong with either perspective.
"I have and the difference exists so you will pay 10x the price out of pocket. Not much of a difference." It's only not much of a difference because you do not understand how improving the staging properties while retaining a nice sound signature is difficult.
By the same logic, headphones are also a waste of money. Just get speakers instead. They can create and image a soundstage correctly and more accurately than headphones.
Wrong, headphones scale much better than IEMs for the same price..... and are a lot more "speaker-like" than an IEM could ever be. Also speakers cost a hell of a lot more.
Also I don't get the meme's the other guy is posting, american dad, futurama... his 80 iq is showing ;-(
There are cheap but good speakers out there. A decent set up can cost a lot more than an entry headphone but performance will still be better than a TOTL headphone. A speaker's staging is infinitely more realistic than a headphone.
If you're going to talk about scaling, just buy $5 headphones. It has the best value since it can produce sound.
Your argument doesn't make sense, because headphones cost considerably cheaper than EITHER other solution for the money. Headphones still have good staging at a decent price, we're talking 200-300 dollars. 2000 dollar IEMs cannot compete with that staging, and to buy speakers with the fidelity of that 200-300 dollar headphone we're talking 2-3 thousand dollars.
Headphones are obviously the best compromise for those who want to listen to music well with their money, but cannot afford speakers.
All this argument proves is the inferiority of IEMs to such a degree you need to shell out as much for speakers to end up with a product still inferior to a 200 dollar headphone.
Still if you have the money........
Staging and balance is more important than absolute best fidelity to me because that's what truly makes music enjoyable (for most). Why I'd prefer earbuds over IEMs, or portable headphones like the PortaPros, which fold up extremely small but stage better than any IEM on the market.
Of course this pertains to IEMs and what they are now. Perhaps with AI assisted intelligence we'll have IEMs at a good pricepoint that stage and sound as well as speakers. When that happens I believe they'll be worth it.
But for now it's a cash drop into inherently limited tech that won't bring what I'd consider the true audiophile's dream.... the perfect sounding piece of equipment.
Here's some non-biased graphs on IEM vs Headphone vs Speaker overall performance in staging, fidelity, cost, and cost to performance based on the absolute BEST each category can be given what technology can do right now.
Remember this discussion is about COST.... I actually enjoy IEMs at times, despite their limiting drawbacks
So if you have the money go ahead and spend it, but don't call it value.
The only factor dragging down TOTL speakers at all is cost.
The factors dragging down the best TOTL headphones are primarily their inferior performance to TOTL speakers in terms of staging and fidelity.
The factors dragging down IEMS is a factor of all three things due to the inherent limiting capability of IEMs.
Therefore if we're talking about TOTL equipment headphones are the easiest to get into with the best performance, Speakers are the most desirable but cost more, and IEMs.... don't offer so much. A real audiophile wouldn't shell out on TOTL IEMS without at least owning TOTL speakers/headphones first or they wouldn't be an audiophile by definition, but instead just a casual listener who likes nice products.
No one is arguing that iems are better value. People accept that. When will you realize that? No one here will say that $2000 iems are just as good as $2000 headphones. It's common sense that the size of the iem restricts many other factors.
We are all just saying that these are not $1100 ripoffs when you place them next to what $2000 iems can do. You're the one saying they are not worth their money. No fucking shit, you are comparing them to headphones. Get a grip of what we're talking about.
Actual stage musicians need iems that can separate the audio correctly yet provide a transparent and accurate sound. They can't be wearing headphones unless they are a producer/mixer.
Stage IEMS basically only require correct balance.... granted these are made for consumer use that's a non-argument.
You probably haven't tried these.
UE18+ has one of the best tonal balance in the market.
Toranku isn't wrong. He's being pretty sensible tbh. I think you're just triggered he doesn't follow your mindset fully.
I honestly would say the 18+ is good value for money. And your logic is just as applicable as his too when it comes to audio. HEadphones and IEMs all have inherent limitations when it comes to body and ear (and earcanal) reactions. Speakers are clearly the superior item, but at the same time, IEMs and headphones have their own merits.
IEMs are not gonna beat a headphone by a long shot, but in terms of making use of what little soundstage it has, and also tonality-wise, they can also compete with each other. Of course you can't compare soundstage with these and the more visceral bass impact as well! That's just plain ridiculous.
Also, please stop with the gatekeeping mindset of "audiophiles don't do IEMs". I think everyone can be an audiophile, and your mindset is limiting everyone, and tbh that's what we want to kick out of the entirety of this hobby.
Look, there's no way to convince you otherwise, tbh. But honestly, why do you even try to preach your gospel in the thread where people are most likely gonna buy it? I think this is counterproductive and abrasive.
Lastly, I would like to remind you the importance of citation. I don't know where you get the graphs from but it seems misleading. As someone who has tried a ton of speakers, headphones and IEMs, I think that doesn't fully represent the whole market in general
These aren't really intended for consumer use, Ultimate Ears' To Go versions exist because there are instances where the professional user might not want a custom IEM. Custom IEMs are difficult to use for demonstration purposes due to fit and manufacturing lead time and they just don't work when you need spares. In our media company, we have several ToGo versions of their Reference Remastered IEM to use as emergency spares.
As for your sound quality argument, there are a time and place for loudspeakers and headphones. No one can use flagship open backed headphones in an office or public environment without disturbing surrounding people, it just isn't possible. Some people just don't want to lug around headphones in general, they take up a lot of space and most decent headphones don't have any means of folding or compacting themselves. And if you don't have the means to account for room acoustics, you're frankly wasting your money on expensive loudspeakers.
So long you can achieve a good seal, high quality IEMs are often the most usable and ergonomic solution. Which might explain their popularity as an audio solution to the public in general, especially in cities that are well serviced by public transportation.
So you're saying they can't use mid-fi closed headphones rather than open in an office environment, which still exceed the best IEMs in terms of staging and generally match detail level. At least for office use, headphones are also better in comfort.
I can justify IEMs only for like a bus-ride but not much else... I mean you'd have to be crazy to use IEMs in an office, daily, for months... having something in your ear....
Most any room works for speakers if you plan it right, but speakers were a money-no-object sort of discussion anyways
I don't disagree with you. I made the graphs just to emphasize what I meant by my dicussion because it seemed to be going overhead. I understand you though, everybody is right in their own mindset.
However, I will protect my ideal of a true audiophile even if it means being abrasive. A true audiophile chases the vision of a perfect sound. A sound as close to as possible the way it sounded at recording. That would mean flat, accurate staging and good detail. There are a myriad of different choices that may fit the bill depending on how someone personally hears a headphone.
Example: people call Beyers sibilant on the S's all the time, I think they're crazy and the S's hiss when they are meant to.
Here's another perspective: Even audiophiles can get tired of a flat sound. There is no one-size-fits-all kind of sound. Different genres require different types of FR. Of course things like transparency, clarity and resolution should be the goal in mind...just that I disagree with the aspect of having a "flat sound" being the best.
You're also forgetting that CIEMs are created for stage musicians a lot of the time. The hard truth is that most stage musician is not going to use a CIEM with a flat sound. If they are producers or mixers, sure. But they are performing on stage. Bassists and drummers need something with enough subbass and midbass emphasis to hear what they are playing. They usually don't want too forward highs since that can get too tiring. Different musicians with different instruments require their own type of sound and preference.
The reason why JH and UE is so popular with stage musicians is also due to how the CIEMs are tuned. JH has this warm tilt to most of their products. It helps the audio sound more alive and organic.
So, you admit that your graphs are an arbitrary data made up by yourself, in order to support your own opinions as if it was the absolute truth? Not to mention that, upon making that, there's a lot of personal biases involved?
I think we're done here. You're deluded and just limiting yourself for really portable technological advancement.
I've tried to dissuade you with all that I know, and all that I can help. unfortunately your delusion's stronger. I tried to be open minded about it, but honestly, it's all pointless
"I mean you'd have to be crazy to use IEMs in an office, daily, for months... having something in your ear...."
If I recall, don't you have an inner ear problem? I vaguely remember you had some sort of accident but I don't remember the extent. It seems that would be why you have such an aversion for IEMs. Otherwise, I'm not sure as to why you would make such a grandiose claim about headphone comfort.
If that's the case, it seems to explain everything then :P
But his case can't really be applied widely to everyone, unfortunately
Why would you be crazy to use IEMs for long periods of time? They're discrete, isolate well and are very comfortable. I think you're projecting your preferences here, we use IEMs for hours and hours at our work for the isolation and we don't find them uncomfortable at all. For a lot of people. they're better than headphones since they don't mess up your hair.
You can use "mid-fi" closed backed headphones in the office but a lot of people don't see the justification to carry a pair around nor do they isolate as well as IEMs that seal properly. I'm not carrying a pair of closed backs *and* a pair of Etymotics whenever I go to work, the sort of "audiophile" that carries multiple pieces of audio hardware are not common.
Yup. Had to look again but it was in the Noble k10 thread just a couple months ago:
Uzuzu - "Iems cause me pain because my left ear was ruptured. I sparingly use a pair called the philips tx2, they're like 30 bucks otherwise I use some vintage earbuds, used to own westone um-p 3. I've demo'd 64's best and the shure 846, I know there is better but, difference wasn't worth it not even close. Right now I've been using the Monoprice Retro as an over-ear and they cost 18 dollars, 23 dollars shipped to my door. I put dampening in the housing and modded it to have a detachable cable for the cost of approximately 2 dollars. I'm enjoying it a lot more than my Ether Flow C's I happened to sell off and have used it almost exclusively for 2 weeks. It stomps on the 598cs, easily. I know that isn't IEM talk, but detail isn't everything or worth it, always.
I just happen to enjoy the music when it sounds good, not when it costs the most. IEMs hit the wall much quicker than headphones do.
Personally my favorite headphone I've heard is the Amiron, unrelated but I can't not mention that gem."
I dunno, I guess I can understand it from his perspective that if he has a physical issue that prevents him from using a certain piece of equipment. But all the hate and generalizations is what seems rather misguided to me. It would be easy to say, they're just not for me, but he constantly denigrates the item and users as if it's their shortcoming as well. That projection just rubs me the wrong way.
He has a point though these are outdated headphones that keep getting sold here as if they are new. It’s like Drop offering IPhone 8 in 2021 for 5% off retail price. I don’t respect companies that sell the same products for almost a decade unless that product is something that can’t be improved, which everything can be improved.