Edition xx - Only 142 SOLD? | Hi adtrisno...

mrjack

Feb 18, 2019

The man owns like all the hifiman headphones so I would say I trust him

Feb 18, 2019

mrjackJust 'owning' the headphones does not mean that he 'knows' that the headphones are identical to each other. How can he know "in fact" that it is the Edition X v2 with a different headband? How does he know that the planar driver is identical?

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mrjack

Feb 19, 2019

mattrisHe has ears? I mean... if you are so skeptical, how are you gonna believe measurements... Did you buy the edition x v2?

audiopornstar

Feb 19, 2019

mrjackCheck his forum post. He modded he4xx and believes its the best thing in this world. He seems to want everyone to follow in his footsteps and not get the edition xx and of course he gets all salty on soulsik's review lol

Feb 19, 2019

audiopornstarI just saw his post. He believes in his own ears. Which I highly respect. hmmmm but I wonder why he doesn't want me to trust my own I mean if every review was to be done via measurement to prove everything, what the hell am I doing here lol. LET THE MACHINES TAKE OVER DAMN IT !

(Edited)

mrjack

Feb 19, 2019

You are now calling people liars.... Just stop man.

Feb 19, 2019

SOULSIKI believe you think the Edition X v2, Edition XX, and Ananda sound the same. I'm not disputing that. What I am calling you out on is that you claimed that the headphones are "the same" when Hifiman's specs and Solderdude's measurements prove otherwise.

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audiopornstar

Feb 19, 2019

Butt hurt

Feb 19, 2019

audiopornstarI did not say 'I believe that the he4xx is the best thing in this world'. Based on my personal experience, I suggested that 4xx owners improve their listening experience by exchanging the ear-pads and using a higher-powered amplifier... rather than spend $600 on another headphone, only to plug it into their phone or computer's headphone jack.

Feb 19, 2019

mattrislet me get it through your thick skulled head. "fuck measurements" have some god damn self confidence and trust your god damn ears.

Feb 19, 2019

SOULSIKI have superb hearing and trust my ears very much. I also take measurements under advisement when making comparisons and purchasing decisions. Factually, you made a statement that wasn't true. Using profanity will not make you right. Your initially weird - and then rude - responses only indicate your unprofessionalism and desperation to dismiss the facts that I brought to the table.

Feb 19, 2019

mattrisI would like to go on record for saying this. I made no factual error in my statements. Same headphones 🎧 Btw this man doesnt own the edition xx. Thats what cracks me up. Why is it that people that talk shit have one thing in common: they have no experience.

(Edited)

Feb 19, 2019

mattrisYou started a fight good going. He is intiteld to his position. You can always start your own post. I’d like to hear what he has to say.

Feb 19, 2019

BonddaboomMy issue is that he claims the Ananda, Edition X v2, and Edition XX are same headphones. Measurements and specifications prove otherwise. My point is that he should have said that the headphones sound the same to him and left it at that.

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Feb 19, 2019

SOULSIKYou made 'factual errors' by claiming something that wasn't true: that the headphones were "the same". They may sound the same to you, but your opinion does not supersede facts. I don't have to own the Edition XX to state the truth and call out your falsehoods. Why you continue furthering your lie "cracks me up". Why is it that people that talk shit have one thing in common: they have no humility.

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Feb 19, 2019

mattrisits like talking to a brick wall make of graphs

Feb 19, 2019

SOULSIK16 weeks ago, T.Fernandez (Collabs, Massdrop) posted this: "We have gotten some answers/updates from Dr. Fang! There was a mislabeling in our specs which should be the Sensitivity rating instead of the Signal-to-Noise Ratio. The 93dB is actually for headphone sensitivity at 1kHz. Second, some members noticed that this is less sensitive than some of the other models and that is correct for 1kHz only. Dr. Fang explains that the Edition XX is slightly warmer than the Edition X V2 and this leads to the 1kHz sensitivity measurement being lower." That should be the "brick wall" to end this nonsense.

Feb 19, 2019

mattrisHe just isn’t hearing a big difference between phones. You should show us evidence for your side of the story.

Feb 19, 2019

mattrisI understand that you are entitled to your opinon. You can go believe in whatever the manufactures say, https://www.synergisticresearch.com/, go believe in them too. Part of my Job as a reviewer is to prove or disapprove statements made by the manufacturer. Thats why I start from zero.

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Feb 19, 2019

mattristhey say the Sennheiser hdxx sounds like hd650 and the graphs on those two are a little different.

Feb 19, 2019

BonddaboomWrong. He said the headphones were "the same". That's a major distinction from saying 'they sound the same to him'. I have shown evidence: measurements, specifications, and insight directly from the President of Hifiman. What more can I post other than an opinion?

Feb 19, 2019

mattrisHD6xx is the same as the HD650.... in sound...... are you going to argue that too?

Feb 19, 2019

SOULSIKClaiming that 'the headphones are the same' is not an opinion. It is factually untrue. You started from zero... and it seems you are still at zero.

Feb 19, 2019

mattriscan you answer my question?

Feb 19, 2019

BonddaboomSennheiser headphones are not the topic at hand. Again, "Dr. Fang explains that the Edition XX is slightly warmer than the Edition X V2 and this leads to the 1kHz sensitivity measurement being lower." Do you deny that statement is true? Do you deny manufacturers specifications based on one reviewers listening perception?

Feb 19, 2019

mattrisSo you won't answer my question. The man is only good for repeating the same thing. I rest my case. It's like talking to brain dead customer service

(Edited)

Feb 19, 2019

mattrisIn statement slightly warmer which maybe hard to tell the difference. But your right with what you wrote.

Feb 19, 2019

BonddaboomHow many db are we talking about. Do you know?

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Feb 19, 2019

SOULSIKWhy was this post created for? Is it possible to get back on track?

Feb 19, 2019

Bonddaboomyea... it totally became a mess. lol anyhow, I can't believe only 142 of them sold. I thought these would blow up the minute they released

Feb 19, 2019

SOULSIKYou think people we’re afraid that they would suck or too expensive?

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Feb 19, 2019

BonddaboomI think price point is right. I think a lot of it has to do with the headband. you are basically paying $699 and praying to god that it doesn't break. Although I don't think its that fragile tbh. I think people are just cautious. Which is not a bad thing

Feb 19, 2019

SOULSIKOff topic but I sent back HE 1000 v2 and ordered Arya after watching your YouTube channel and other reviews. So tomorrow I’ll find out how they compare.

Feb 19, 2019

BonddaboomCool. Shouldn't you have ordered the Arya, compared and then sent one back? or was that not an option.

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Feb 19, 2019

SOULSIKStill have the hekv2 so tomorrow I’ll compare side by side.

Feb 19, 2019

BonddaboomAh I see. cool. Would love to hear your opinion on it.

Feb 19, 2019

SOULSIKWill do.

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Feb 19, 2019

Bonddaboombtw, don't know if you believe in break in but these kinda need few hours on em. The highs kind of settle down and sound stage opens up tad more in my opinon

Feb 19, 2019

SOULSIKNo idea about dB.

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Feb 19, 2019

Bonddaboomlol don't worry about it

Feb 19, 2019

Thats great. So hows life

Feb 19, 2019

SOULSIKYes, it has been confirmed that the HD6XX is the same as the HD650 in sound, although there have been slight variations in parts/performance over the 17+ years since it was released. Also, an HD650 from 2002 will not sound the same as a new HD6XX, due to driver break-in and pad wear (compression).

Feb 20, 2019

mrjackNormally I would agree with you, but I was speaking with Metal a few days ago on twitter and he says that there are definitely critical differences between Sundara, Arya, Ananda, and the Edition XX. He really liked Ananda, felt that Arya was too pitchy in the treble and said that none of them really reached the same level as the HE1000 V2, but he likes the low end and overall feel of Ananda more?... He also has an Edition XX review unit, and he said he didn't like it all- so much so, that he may not even review it... This scares me, and it indicates that it does not seem that this is actually the same as a Edition X V2 or close to the Ananda (as many have said that the Edition X V2 is...).

Feb 20, 2019

zep483I agree there is critical differences between sundara, arya and ananda. I do not agree that that ananda and edition xx has any critical differences that i can note of. At least with my pair. I also agree that the Arya was a bit pitchy out of the box but after burn in (if you believe in them) or mental burn in, whatever you want to call it, It settled down. Not particularly directed at Metal or any reviewer but sometimes reviewers may not bother to burn it in (depending on if they believe it or not) & also if they are overwhelmed with review time. Not every reviewer owns the headphones and don't have adequate time with them, which is not their fault and seems to be a problem. I have no doubt that Ananda's price factor influenced me in the beginning to "think" that it is better, I will admit. But after careful consideration, listening and Blind A/B testing with headband pressure taken out of the equation by foam (so that i cannot guess), I was not able to tell the difference. I respect his opinion although I do not agree completely. There may be variances due to quality control, but thats just a bold assumption coming from me. Maybe this is the most valid reason to why only so few sold so far. Thank you for your insight

(Edited)

Feb 20, 2019

SOULSIKI think so few sold because of perceptions of build quality via Hifiman's history. Also given the headband it more than likely would have sold more at 499 than 599. I know I was "just about ready to buy them" and I decided to hold out to see what the reviewers had to say about it overall. It is bad news that there seem to be differing opinions on it. Honestly, I'd rather buy a Edition XX if sound quality wise it is "just as good as Ananda"- saves me money, and honestly I'm ok with the headband... I'm just worried now that they won't sound as good. I'm trying to remain open and am hopeful that your comparison videos come out soon! Like now... k, thanks! Lol, I'd also like to do a comparison video if you want to send them to me when you're done :P You can email me at InToItReviews@gmail.com

(Edited)

Feb 20, 2019

zep483Hey InTolt haha. Did not realize it was you ! Some comparisons are posted on Patreon already but I won't be doing comparison between the Ananda, edition x v2 and edition xx because I have already confirmed they sound the same to me. This may very well be quality control, variances, etc I may have gotten lucky and got a good ass pair. But far as I am concerned, I can only comment on my pair. I am listening to the LCD 2 right now to compare it to the LCD 2 Classic and edition xx, Now THATS A DIFFERENCE I can tell any day.

(Edited)

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Feb 20, 2019

SOULSIKAhh, K. I gotcha, makes sense :p I still want to hear a comparison between maybe... Aeolous, Elex, and/or LCD X since I think these are comparables, and I can't get my hands on these kind of things yet ;) Yeah I should change my name on here too, but haven't gotten around to it yet. Having a day job is getting in the way of the review channel getting up and running :P I got a good upcoming video coming down the pipe though.

(Edited)

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Feb 20, 2019

zep483Hey man, I feel you. I have a full time job too, this is just for fun. I bought the Aeolus, is on their way. I have the LCD X, LCD 2, etc and so I'll keep your request in mind. will look forward to your review.

SOULSIKAlso these: https://shop.musicteck.com/collections/sendyaudio/products/sendyaudio-aiva-black-beauty-series-97-76mm-planar-magnetic-headphones?variant=18480633839678

Feb 20, 2019

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Feb 20, 2019

SOULSIKI find it very telling that you ignored my response to your HD650/HD6XX question... after rudely saying, "So you won't answer my question. The man is only good for repeating the same thing. I rest my case. It's like talking to brain dead customer service" just minutes after you asked it... and also "its like talking to a brick wall make of graphs" and "fuck measurements". Even when presented with multiple forms of factual evidence, you adamantly refused to admit to me that you were wrong to say that the Ananda, Edition X v2 and Edition XX were "the same headphone"... but then soon admitted to someone else that they just "sound the same to me". If you had just exhibited some humility in response to my initial question, you could have avoided making a fool of yourself.

Feb 22, 2019

mattrisYou calling me out because I mentioned 650 and 6xx being alike. Don’t remember getting asked a question about it.

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Feb 22, 2019

BonddaboomNo, I did not call you out regarding the 650 and 6xx being alike. Regarding the Edition XX and its relatives, you said: He just isn’t hearing a big difference between phones. You should show us evidence for your side of the story. My response: Wrong. He said the headphones were "the same". That's a major distinction from saying 'they sound the same to him'. I even clarified that the "Sennheiser headphones are not the topic at hand." You admitted, "your right with what you wrote." Let's not make this situation complicated. Soulsik was factually incorrect when he said that the Ananda, Edition X v2 and Edition XX were the "same headphone". He repeatedly refused to admit to me that he was wrong... but then later conceded that "they sound the same to me" to zep483. This matter is closed.

Feb 22, 2019

mattrisI believe with Massdrop format, headphones they put out are a close copy of a headphone such an such company produces. The Elex has been called the Elear and 6xx is the 650 of Massdrop. Many people have commented on the fact at hand on YouTube.

Feb 24, 2019

BonddaboomBut the Elex and Elear are tuned differently, and Sennheiser confirmed that the HD 6XX is a current production HD 650 with a different color headband, cheaper packaging and accessories, sold exclusively in bulk (to Massdrop). Sennheiser also confirmed that the HD 58X Jubilee has different drivers than the HD 660 S and HD 700, but that’s a different story. YouTube channels often fall to the temptation of clickbait titles and sensational statements. @mattris made a logical point, @SOULSIK could easily have accepted that but present that he still feels the Edition XX is a great value and sounds close enough and of similar quality. I think that would have satisfied both parties, yes? But instead, Soulsik has stood by a misleading statement which was shown to be false, and made matters worse by trying to deflect with jokes about mattris’ character. I don’t respect the way Soulsik handled this, and add to that the other misleading statements he makes in his videos (he changed the name of his YouTube channel, but still takes clickbait stances) makes for a reviewer I won’t trust. @mattris, I think you’re right that Soulsik’s response to zep483 is as close as you’re going to get from him.

(Edited)

Feb 25, 2019

EvshrugCan you explain how its click bait? it literally says edition xx review on it? Also just to clarify, I changed my channel name because it is a group of reviewers now, not just me. And it was change a while back, just clarifying because you make sound like I changed the channel name to avoid the "bad" reputation. Not everyone is going to like me or what I say... you are free to distrust me, I am not here to change your mind. I do admit and apologize that my response to mattris was rather unprofessional, but the mate was not here to question but to interrogate, attack and put forth his belief in measurements in the first place. Hence my uncaring response but I guess I got carried into his debate so I guess I am a fool as well. I do not respond like this if it was an actual well intentioned question. If you see my responses to others on massdrop, I always respond to help and you can check that for yourself on my profile. my stance is that, according to my review, its the same headphone. Despite what measurements (manufacturer and others) have put out, I am not going by it.... if I did, I would be explaining the measurements .... not "reviewing" it. I think people that understand what I am doing respects what I do, for those that think a reviewer should think everything the manufacturer markets to be absolute truth, then obviously I am not trustworthy to them because I stated something out of line. I can easily go with the flow of reading off whatever the manufacture says and gain "credibility", but I refuse to do so because one of the reason I started this was because I was burnt by reviewers stating whatever the manufacturer told them, and it turned out to be not true.

(Edited)

Feb 25, 2019

SOULSIKWell I, for one, hope that he's right and there is limited to no difference (maybe even a positive reason to get the cheaper one). I'm all for a more affordable option. Although, I'm also interested in the bluetooth Ananda's at some point too... Might be unique to get a bluetooth capable headphone, if, and only if, it is exactly an Ananda in wired form too... (but I think it more than likely, it won't be, and they're going to screw it up ;) fingers crossed they don't) .

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Feb 25, 2019

zep483I heard that theres gonna be no headphone jack. Which means if the bluetooth goes, the headphone goes.... lets wait and see if there is a headphone jacks still..... that would be my 2 cent

(Edited)

Feb 25, 2019

SOULSIKOH no! my prediction is correct...

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Feb 25, 2019

SOULSIKI find it amazing that you're still going on about this. You now say that I "was not here to question but to interrogate, attack and put forth his belief in measurements". All I did was questioned how you knew that the Edition XX and HE1000 v2 were "the same headphone". You seem to have no answer, so I presented numerous facts contradicting your claim. It's obvious now that you only refused to answer my question because you realized that you had made a claim that wasn't true - but did not want to admit that... at least to me. You then proceeded to attack and insult me in an effort to discredit me. I appreciate that you have admitted that your responses were "rather unprofessional". If you wish to fully resolve this quarrel by offering me a direct apology, I will accept it.

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Feb 25, 2019

SOULSIKYou know what's more fun that listening to headphones? Uh...reading graphs. How dare you question the graphs put out by the manufacturer?

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Feb 25, 2019

SOULSIKIf a review is just going to be some dude comparing graphs, might as well get a bot to do it. Sorry, maybe it's just me but I'll listen to the guy that has the headphones. It's all just supposed to be a guideline anyways. The fun part is actually buying them and listening to them yourself no? If you don't end up liking them, welp, on to the next one...

Feb 25, 2019

adtrisnoYes sir. My point exactly. Thank you, finally someone understands. Cheers

Feb 25, 2019

adtrisnoHeadphone reviews can include "some dude comparing graphs" as well as manufacturer's product specifications, manufacturer's comments, listening perceptions, and the comfort/sound/build quality of similar models... all of which I'm taking under consideration when assessing the Edition XX. It seems many here are taking the perceptions of one "guy that has the headphones" as the primary evidence that all of the headphones in question are "the same", as SOULSIK claimed. I know now that he was factually incorrect and decided to make that claim because he cannot tell a difference in sound between the headphones. No, the "fun part" is NOT "actually buying them and listening to them yourself". Doing so costs hundreds - or thousands of dollars - and time wasted returning unwanted headphones, assuming returns are allowed... and that a restocking fee will not be deducted. At least with Massdrop one won't have to be concerned with returns, as they aren't allowed... "welp".

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Feb 25, 2019

mattrisFirstly, I apologize if my responses have offended you. I do apologize, I should have made it clear in the video that "manufactures consider these different headphones but I believe it is the same headphone" I understand you trust graphs and consider them "facts." However I ask that you see if from my perspective as well with all due respect, Reviews sure "can include" but that is not my way of doing reviews. Just like how I distrust inconsistent graphs, you can choose to distrust me.... its not a problem. I was never here to change your mind. The reason I do not consider graphs to be "facts" is because of their inconsistency and because our ears are not mics and the way we hear can never be measured as it is done with a mic. For this exact reason, even the most highest end manufacturers like sonus faber, mcintosh, ps audio all admit to starting roughly with measurements and then fine tuning with ears. Specs....although they can be good indications where to start....it mean very little. If you take Magnepan speakers for example; 4 ohm, 86 db sensitivity, typical spec of a speaker.... not that inefficient.... yet it is one of the hardest to drive speakers and picky with amp choices. If I were to review these speakers, measurements would mean nothing because of the room, placement, amp choices, etc will matter way more. So I consider this to be the same with headphones, measurements mean very little in retrospect to what the end user hears. I remember a friend telling me how Cerwin Vegas had great specs and measurements that beat all other manufactures but sounded absolutely terrible. And I am sure we have all had gear that measured incredibly well but sounded terrible. - Steven from Stereophile talks about this as well. conversely we had gear that sounds great but measures terribly, such as the well know Schiit multibit dacs and audio-gd products. I don't consider graphs and specs put out by manufactures to be "facts" when I do reviews..... so I am sorry but from my point of view, I am not factually wrong. Happy listening.

(Edited)

Feb 26, 2019

mattris "just going to be some dude comparing graphs", with "just" being the operative word there... Of course we can take into account all the things you mentioned but the main and integral part of any review has to be your opinion on listening to the actual headphone. Here is an parallel. I am not going to give any credence to a person talking about a restaurant if all he did was read the recipes. Imagine if said person answered, "no" when asked, "have you eaten there?" And also, if the fun part isn't buying and listening to the headphones themselves, what is the fun part in all of this? Looking at graphs? Reading specs? Going back to the food analogy, I personally would rather eat at a place than read up on it, sorry, hundreds of dollars be damned. And guess what, it might suck. But it's still better than reading... But on a thing as subjective as taste, or hearing, or sight, a review should never be taken as fact, just as a guideline. Corrent me if I'm wrong but the point SOULSIK was trying to make was, to him, they sound the same. Even with the differences in the measurements, his ears couldn't tell. Could yours? Yes, yes, I know they measure differently, we don't need to get into that. But could your ears tell?

Feb 26, 2019

SOULSIKTo eliminate the placebo effect, you really should go into any reviews without reading any specs. Still deciding between this and the Elex as my next plunge. Hifiman's build quality is really iffy. One of the yokes on my HE-350 snapped within a month, no biggie, was a crappy headphone anyways. One of my HE-4XX screws keeps unfastening. And my buddy's RE-600 cables is in 5 or 6 different pieces? I haven't personally seen one of their product hold up which is a worry no matter how tempting the Edition XX is...

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Feb 26, 2019

adtrisnofunny how someone from hifiman unknowingly admitted to me that the ananda, edition xv2 and xx are all same headphones with just a different headband, not going to name who for their own safety. And of course because I can't use this evidence in the COURT OF LAW (lol) because I am not about to expose who told me. But DAMN why must I be moral and save a person's job just to make a point ! it seems my ears wins this time you damn MEASUREMENTS ! now Imagine how misleading it would have been if I went by the graphs and specs ! But take if for what you will everyone.

(Edited)

Feb 26, 2019

SOULSIKFirst of all, apology accepted.

Ok, so your updated statement is that the "manufactures consider these different headphones but I believe it is the same headphone" So after all that I've presented that factually contradicts that statement, you still believe the Edition XX, Edition X V2, and Ananda are "the same headphone"? Hifiman even says otherwise. You are literally saying that Hifiman is lying? From Massdrop's description page: "Edition XX is a full-size, open-back headphone with the same basic shape and structure as its more expensive siblings: the HE1000, Edition X V2, and Ananda. For outstanding clarity and resolution, it uses the newly developed Neo Super Nano Driver" So all of these headphones use the same driver. But that does not mean they are tuned identically or have the same specifications. On the contrary, they are not tuned the same ... and do not have the same specifications. Pointing to graphs as evidence to support my questioning of your claim was not my main point. I understand that microphone measurements will be inconsistent among different testers... and do not accurately represent human hearing. But if a tester conducts measurements consistently, the results will offer a relatively accurate reading for head(phone)-to-head(phone) comparison. Sorry, your claim is not a matter if opinion, "perspective", or "point of view". Regardless of your hearing abilities, the Edition XX, Edition X v2, and Ananda are NOT the same headphone. They just sound the same to you. Please understand, that is a major distinction from saying, "they are the same headphone". You're free to conduct reviews however you like. But if you want to avoid misleading people, be careful not to make factually "factually wrong" statements. Happy listening to you, as well.

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Feb 26, 2019

adtrisnoYou are wrong. SOULSIK's point was that the headphones are the same - not just that they "sound the same to him".

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Feb 26, 2019

SOULSIKSo, Dr. Fang (quoted above) didn't know what he was taking about... and the manufacturer's specifications are incorrect? Could it just be they have the same driver... or that "someone from hifiman" is mistaken? And if what you say is true, why would Hifiman continue to sell the Ananda, which costs $400 more?

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Feb 26, 2019

mattrisThat last bit about the pricing doesn't hold up and you know it. The same reason as this I presume? www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/310010-REG/Sennheiser_HD_650_HD650_Reference_Class.html Sennheiser actually continues to sell, not MSRP but SELL, it in my country, Indonesia, for around $450. Yes, we suck, I know... Anyways, I don't think we are going to get anywhere with this anyways so I am going to cut this short and we'll just agree to disagree. By the way, we get it. Please stop suggesting someone here is dumb enough to buy a $600! planar! open back! headphone and hook it up straight into a PC. I sincerely doubt anybody here is that dumb. Well, I hope nobody here is ;P...

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Feb 26, 2019

mattrisHey mattris. you missed the whole point of me not considering graphs as factual evidence ! (and you repeated yourself again) I get the point ! the graphs are facts for you hence I am factually wrong in your perspective. understood. However everyone has their own perspective, so you really can only prove that I am factually wrong in your perspective. (because you believe graphs to be facts) So sure, they are NOT the same headphone to you so as much as I will be careful not to make factually incorrect statements, I did not this time around to me and anyone that doesn't believe in graphs. and really.... you do not need to repeat yourself.... I understood what you said and I have been really replying over and over again with the same response. hopefully this ones a little bit clearer sorry if I was not clear before Happy listening

(Edited)

Feb 26, 2019

mattrissure, thats possible. Dr. Fang could be deceiving everyone or the "someone from hifiman" could have been mistake. Possibilities are endless Ananda is $400 more for the headband. And as stupid as that sounds, Hifiman is known to fuck themselves over like this, so its not a surprise. And also.... if you haven't noticed.... Massdrop drops are limited..... its not permanent sales.... maybe thats why Ananda is still for sale? I mean he4xx was $170 and He400s was still $300 and He400i was $500 at the time I reviewed it. lol (not saying they were same headphones, just saying they were comparable and similar)

(Edited)

Feb 26, 2019

SOULSIKIt's why in older and simpler times, we would just demo and listen to the things we were going to buy. If 2 headphones sounded the same to us, we would consider them the same headphones, no matter if graphs show us that one of them can make a bat's ear explode. Again though, this is all a moot point if... you... haven't... heard... the... headphones... yourself...

Feb 26, 2019

adtrisnoWell, I always encourage people to listen for themselves. My reviews are just there for general guideline and my perspective/insight as a person who owns and heard many headphones. I always encourage that you check it out yourself before purchasing if possible. and also the reason I provide demos with my dummy head to give you a glimpse because demos are not always possible (not saying it is the accurate representation)

(Edited)

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Feb 26, 2019

SOULSIKI did not miss your point. I'm saying that you "not considering graphs as factual evidence" is objectively wrong. You may say that 'graphs don't matter to you'... or that 'you dispute the methods or processes by which the measurements were obtained', or that 'measurement taking has inconsistencies'. Fine. But graphs are facts - period. Being "factually wrong" has nothing to do with "perspective". Facts are facts and, by definition, have nothing to do with opinions. Two headphones either produce the exact same sound and measure the same - or they do not. Opinions and perspectives don't enter into it. Some - or even all - listeners may not be able to perceive a difference between the headphones, but that is another discussion. I never doubted that you couldn't tell them apart, sound-wise. Based on the information at hand, you cannot say you did not make a factually incorrect statement. Graphs aside, the facts (Dr. Fang and differing manufacturer's specifications) contradict your statement. Until proven otherwise, the facts show that the Edition XX, Edition X v2, and Ananda are NOT the same headphone.

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Feb 26, 2019

mattrisTo you. Ok I understand. Graphs were never facts. When did it ever become a fact..... The fact is that graphs are not facts.... But rough estimates....We even learn this in like elementary class.... Especially sonic graphs? Can you provide me solid proof that graphs are facts? Because last time I checked, facts are not supposed to be inconsistent? (Sincere question, not mocking) Because to my understanding.... A chemist's measurement is not called a fact but a theory

(Edited)

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Feb 26, 2019

SOULSIKA chemist may have a theory (or more correctly, a hypothesis), but the results of measurements are facts. From thoughtco.com: "In science, a measurement is a collection of quantitative or numerical data that describes a property of an object or event. A measurement is made by comparing a quantity with a standard unit." Graphs are a visual representations of measured performance by an individual or company... and therefore, facts. Depending on various factors, sonic graphs of headphones can be "rough estimates" or smoothing could be implemented. Also, inconsistencies may occur since headphone-microphone measuring is not an exact science. But if the measurement procedures and methods are identical (and multiple results are averaged), measurements of multiple products can be accurately compared. You may not be able to tell them apart by listening, but the facts show that the Edition XX, Edition X v2, and Ananda are NOT the same headphone - not just "to me". Just curious, do your headphone samples produce the same (perceived) sound level at a fixed volume on your amp?

(Edited)

Feb 26, 2019

adtrisnoHi adtrisno, There is a price difference between the HD 6XX and HD 650 retail price in the US as well, a smaller price difference than the HiFimans (HiFiman’s? Hifimen? LoL English is weird) in question here. I don’t actually know completely why, but I imagine that it’s a combination of simplified packaging, accessories, and buying the headphones at wholesale quantities before selling to us consumers (rather than stocking like 5 to 10 in an individual store, and ordering more as needed). I don’t think you suck in Indonesia... in fact, if that $450 is the US dollar equivalent of what you pay in your area, then you have my sympathy for whatever cost environment has kept the price there for you (HD 650 originally sold for $500 in the US, but time and economy of scale had lowered the price to about $350 before the Massdrop exclusive came out). I am not an Edition XX subject matter expert, so I’m not even going to guess what kind of cost-saving measures HiFiman took to still make a profit on the Massdrop exclusive. I don’t understand HiFiman’s approach to replacing (and maybe, just renaming?) headphones on an almost yearly basis, like a computer or smartphone maker. Personally, I hope HiFiman is still making a profit even if they found a way to preserve the sound quality of the Edition X v2. I have this hope not only because I like to see the headphone market grow, but also because I enjoyed the experience every time I demoed the original Edition X. Last thing to tell you, @adtrisno, is that I got to talk to Dr. Fang Bian (I hope I’m spelling his last name right) at a CanJam RMAF right after the Edition X was launched. He said that he felt that the Edition X was priced at a bargain, because it delivered high sound quality and was designed to get enough power directly from mobile devices, so the user wouldn’t necessarily need to buy expensive discrete amps. I thought that was kind of cool, and tried to compliment him on that (I still feel that feeding it from at least a quality DAC and low distortion amp is a benefit, just because I didn’t feel like my iPhone 5S was the cleanest source on the planet ;). Hi @SOULSIK, I appreciate that you just said you apologize for being unprofessional. I understand it can happen to everyone in a moment, especially if someone is challenging personal viewpoints. Hopefully we can move beyond lashing out in defense, and find some value in this debate. I didn’t chime in to waste anyone’s time, in fact I hope we can consider each other’s perspectives and come to new conclusions, and also conclude the original debate started with the original post. I think we can agree that a manufacturer’s interest is in selling their products. I can understand that you, as a reviewer, are more interested in describing products, and maybe which products you would recommend (or not). Personally, I think it’s sad when we cannot trust a manufacturer’s statement (and that does happen), because when they do tell the truth they have the most factual information available, and I appreciate when they share (truthful) info rather than just withholding it. Obviously your interests and the manufacturer’s align when you feel compelled to make a recommendation (as with the Edition XX). I’m a believer that more description concensus is good for everyone because more potential customers can decide “Hey, that sounds like something I want,” and I think @mattris and I are both more interested in the description before making purchase decisions. A headphone can be described with a narrative (clear treble, forward mids, tight bass, crisp impact, etc), graphs, and by relative comparison to other headphones. Graphs have their own issues, but presented in the right way they can still be valuable. One of the biggest issues with graphs is how variable they are depending on the measurement rig. Measuring headphones is not completely standardized by using equivalent equipment, and a high confidence amateur graph is hard to come by. However, if the viewer is made aware of what the graph cannot measure and what inaccuracies may be present in the graph, and there is high confidence in a graph (usually only professionals have enough resources to dedicate to a good rig), they can still be used to give a sense of a headphone’s tone and performance, or to make a point (maybe the guts of the Ananda and Edition XX are a little different, but see how they are similar here and there, etc). Frequency graphs are also not the only measurement... to go back to Sennheiser for a moment, I highly doubt distortion and square wave graphs of the HD 58X would match the HD 660 S, despite them sharing an impedence measurement and enclosure. To turn adtrisno’s example on its head, isn’t a food review better if it describes the flavor AND is able to point to which ingredients caused that flavor? I think it would be hard to describe the flavor of a pizza without listing which toppings were chosen. Measurements are an evolving science and I agree that we can’t solely rely on them, but they still can have value. I think again mattris and I would agree that it’s fair for you to say the Edition XX and Ananda sound so close you can’t distinguish between them (which raises the value of the EdXX), but saying definitely that you know they are the same is a pitfall. Let’s ignore that you have heard contradictory statements from your anonymous contact and more public statements from Dr. Fang, and the manufacturer’s interests (which are always to sell), and consider why it is to your benefit not to state opinion as fact. You didn’t manufacture/design the headphones yourself, so you don’t have actual proof either way, BUT since your position as a reviewer is that the result does sound practically the same, it doesn’t actually matter: you can still have the same opinion/observation even if HiFiman got there a different way. To say they ARE the same (besides headband) might seem like shorthand, but it just opens you up to maybe be proven wrong. Following? Given what I said above about observation and opinion vs stating opinion as fact, let’s quickly conclude with the title of your video. It’s not just “edition XX review”

I get it that a YouTuber needs to have a personality, and gets more clicks when the personality is larger than life. A simple difference between “my” and “the” changes the title from a personal belief to a broad statement encompassing everyone that 1.) the ananda is the all time favorite, and 2.) the Edition XX is a repeat of the Ananda/Exition X v2 (but at least you have a question mark). I don’t have a huge problem with this particular title (which is why I’m writing about it last, I know I wrote a lot) because you don’t fully commit to declarations in the title and spend some time in the video trying to qualify it, but it does introduce the tone of the video where you eventually do state an opinion as fact (which is what mattris’ takes issue with). Of course you want a title that will interest people to click, and I’m not saying an interesting title is itself a bad thing, as long as it is actually the topic of the video and not misleading. I’m just saying it’s more professional that your content doesn’t state opinion as fact, and you look more professional not to lose your cool when confronted by criticism (which you apologized for, and hopefully his point might actually be beneficial to you going forward). Finding ways to improve how you come across to people is one way to retain viewers and grow your subscribers. LOL I think I’ve said all I wanted to say. Yay internet!

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Feb 26, 2019

EvshrugTL;DR... I kid, I kid. It's actually more percentage wise. 350/199 = 175% compare to 1000/599 = 166%. Massdrop's pricing has always been out of whack for their Massdrop Made stuff. By the way, 450/199 = 225% is just...no, no, we do suck for anybody trying to buy anything non mainstream. It's weird how for mainstream things, we're actually pretty good with pricing. For me, my problem is this. This is a community. I see a value in someone telling me, "hey, I bought this the other day, looks a good buy. After listening to it for some time, it's the same headphone as the Ananda but just uses a different headband." I can pretty much decipher for myself that it might not be identical but it sounds identical to someone who has been analytically listening to a lot of equiptment. Or it might be identical, who knows. But what I can't see a value in is someone nitpicking and saying over and over and over...and over "this is not correct! It's factually wrong! I haven't listened to ANY of these headphones but look at the graphs! They're put out by the "Chinese Manufacturer" who are known to never skew things..." Yeah, I am chinese so I can say that right ;)? I dunno, maybe I am a little biased after reading his last rant which was most definitely a TL;DR thread on "Don't buy this, buy a 4XX. If you buy this and plug it straight into a PC, it's not going to sound any better than a 4XX with pads and amps and blah blah blah..." Huh?!? Who buys a $600 headphone and doesn't have a DAC or an amp? These statements don't really help me much. Look, we are all looking for a good deal, it's Massdrop after all but personally, I am sick of buying $200 headphones. I have the 4XX, 6XX, 7XX, 58X, T40RP, T20RP, R70X, A950LTD. What if someone had $1K to spare to spend on equipment? What if they had $52K? Things like this exist you know... https://en-us.sennheiser.com/sennheiser-he-1 I apologize in advance to mattris if this offends him but I just don't see how anything he says, in the 137 pages that he wrote, benefits to anybody looking to buy an Edition XX. The main part being he hasn't listened to ANY of the headphones in question, not even a demo. There's not even a conversation to be had really because the fun of this for me will always be listening, enjoying, modding, my equipment rather than reading specs. I am illiterate so you know, read bad, music good. Anyways yeah, agree to disagree...

Feb 27, 2019

adtrisnoHaha, you got me, “all I wanted to say” was quite a lot (and I replied to you and SOULSIK in one merged comment, because I didn’t want to multipost). I guess the short version is the back and forth didn’t seem to be getting anywhere, and it was starting to get rude. I understand SOULSIK’s position, but I don’t think he realized how he was coming across (that was what bugged me), and I also saw some value FOR soulsik in what mattris was saying. I think the argument can come to an end, and I hope Soulsik (& team) benefit from thinking it over. If it wasn’t Mattis this time, it would eventually be someone else on this video or another. Mattis is determined but at least he is civil in his criticism; I’d rather have that directed at me than someone flipping out. I’m glad you, adtrisno, can read between the lines, not everyone can. To bring up Sennheiser again, so many people repeat Z Reviews stating that the HD 58X Jubilee “is the same” as the HD 660 S. I have heard both (I have a preproduction HD 58X Jubilee too, friend has a regular HD 58Z Jubilee), and though the impedence and tone of both are similar, the performance of the HD 660 S is right in the middle between the HD 650 and HD 800 S, while the HD 58X Jubilee is a great value but performs below the HD 650. People are buying the HD 58X Jubilee thinking that, if they take out the foam (which is just for aesthetics and some drop impact protection), they are getting an HD 660 S and a better headphone than the HD 6XX. It’s a parallel situation, and I could see the mainstream misconception being repeated here.

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Feb 27, 2019

EvshrugYeah, I listened to the HD660S at a store and they're definitely not the same. Really similar but not the same but definitely should not warrant a 300+% markup. I only notice when ABing really. Although I gotta say, the 58X is way more versatile than the 6XX in music and in application, probably cause I have the NX2S as my portable amp and I lean towards a slight V-shaped sound for daily listening. So personally, I consider the 58X a better headphone than the 6XX regardless of price. The 58X has definitely gotten more hours of use from me personally although I haven't touched both in a while since I got my TR-X00 but you know how these things go... I am going to take a wild guess and say SOULSIK can probably tell the difference between the 660S and the 58X also. The Edition XX, again, I'd have to listen to them. Seems like the difference is either minuscule or none. Man, you're going to get me to pick the Edition XX over the Elex/Elear just out of curiosity, cheap plastic and all. The build quality is still so iffy to me. I've personally dealt with 3 things from Hifiman but it's always something like needing to tighten 1 screw after a couple of uses, the yoke snapping altogether after a month and the cable exploding into 5 different pieces...

Feb 27, 2019

EvshrugA sound argument and explanation. no complaints. You are right. As I have apologized and stated; I will make sure to include that it is my opinon that these are same headphones. And yes, I agree. I come off strong in my comments. But usually its with a smile on my face (weird I know). Just the person I am. I have read your lengthy well written summary and have grown respect for you in doing so. happy listening

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Feb 27, 2019

mattrisHey mattris. I have learned my lesson. I understand. I will learn to respect graphs despite my belief being totally out of line with it. As @Evshrug has suggested, there is always room to learn to better my reviews. Another perspective that I did not think I would take. I need to learn to still respect things I do not believe in. Not believing is one thing, not respecting it was foolish of me. and yes, they have the same (perceived) sound level at fixed volume on my amp. Just tested to make sure.

inmytaxi

175

Feb 27, 2019

mattrisObviously they are not 'the same'. Two different things are 'different'.

Feb 27, 2019

inmytaxiLol!

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