[IC] Pulse GMK - Leave your feedback inside! 🧞‍♂️ | The USD in late...

[IC] Pulse GMK - Leave your feedback inside! 🧞‍♂️

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ChuckDee

1906

Apr 25, 2019

Can you consider the approach that @Zambumon and @T0mb3ry have done with their latest sets and break out the numpad into its own set?

Apr 25, 2019

ChuckDeeHey Chuck Dee! Always awesome to hear from you my man, hope you're doing nice. Regarding the separation of Numpad, I do not have any plans to do that because in my opinion it is a deceptive and unfair strategy based on invalid assumptions. There are different perspectives to it and I'm gonna confront you with the simplest one: Crunching some numbers: Laser Cyberdeck: $109 @ 1,000 unities

Covers anything from 40% to full-size

https://www.massdrop.com/buy/massdrop-x-mito-gmk-laser-custom-keycap-set Jamon Base: $90 @ 1,000 unities

Covers custom TKLs and 60%/65%

https://www.massdrop.com/buy/massdrop-x-zambumon-gmk-jamon-custom-keycap-set In order to achieve same compatibility from Laser you need the following Jamon kits:

Numpad: $28 @ 500
Forties: $33 @ 500

This is already at $151 not to mention that Laser also covered UK so:

UK: $19 @ 250

Therefore, at 1,000 unities sold, we have:

Laser: $109
Jamón: a whooping $170

Most people will try to justify that this is still worth doing because - "majority of people do not need the Numpad, and this is backed up by the fact that 250 people purchased the Jamon Numpad whilst 846 bought the Jamon Base kit." The problem with this argument is that it assumes that everyone who wanted the set and owns a full-sized keyboard agreed that paying $118 for Base + Numpad was okay. What if $118 was a deal breaker to many people and only a few (250) decided to fork the cash? Hard to tell. A couple other things to mention:

Godspeed MT3 modifiers sold 1527 unities (plus almost 700 numpads);
Pulse SA modifiers sold 1228 unities (plus about 570 numpads);
Canvas XDA modifiers sold 697 unities (plus about 300 numpads)

So I would argue that overall about 46% of the normal modifiers customers also have a numpad, unlike the 29% that Jamon made look like. Is this something worth doing? I find it hard to justify, because the same overall logic could be applied if you consider that about 55% of the customer base own 60% keyboards and the other 45% have a TKL, therefore we should only offer the core 60% modifiers corre plus a TKL extension kit.

3484

Apr 25, 2019

MiToMy apologies, but it is a super unfair comparisson. First of all, you are very well aware that the pricing for GMK sets has risen over the last years, and while GMK Nautilus was sold for $100 back in 2017, that wouldn't be possible in 2019. In fact, in 2018, GMK Serika @ 1000 unities cost $120. A kit that is smaller than GMK Laser's cyberdeck. And then if you add a proper dedicated 40% kit (with dedicated split space bars, accents, multiple layout support, etc) like the one GMK Jamón had it would be @ 500 a "whooping" $160. Compared to the $170 that Jamón costed, and considering that Jamón's UK ISO kit includes a symmetry key and 2 extra ISO enters. I don't think it is such a bad deal. Of course splitting a set in kits increases the price of the set if you purchase the set, and of course the combination of ISO + Numpad + Core would be cheaper than having those three sets as standalones, . but my goal was to make a base kit that satisfied most of the people's needs and have it for $100 at 500, I didn't even cared about @ 1000 tier. I don't understand why you are saying "this is hard to justify" when this has been your approach for MT3 Godspeed, or SA Pulse.

Apr 26, 2019

ZambumonThe USD in late 2017 (when I made Laser GMK) was more devalued than it is today (1 USD = 0,90 EUR today whilst in late 2017 it was 1 USD = 0,84 EUR) so Laser nowadays would actually be cheaper if you consider USD vs EUR only. Of course this is not entirely true because like you mentioned GMK changed pricing policies, but I can't comment precisely on how much GMK raised their prices, therefore I can't take this factor into my math. That said, I do not think it is a "super unfair comparison", a comparison must be made and I am rationalizing what I can with the information I have. Although it is not 100% correct from a technical standpoint, this is what I managed to figure, hence my numbers above. My opinion (and it may change in the future) is that splitting a numpad is hard to justify because almost half of the customers seem to need it as proven by Pulse/Godspeed/Canvas - kits where we can easily split stuff unlike GMK, so that's why I did it. Having the numpad makes the kit more complete, by a fraction of the overall price. One less kit to be prone to errors and mistakes in manufacturing phase, it is logistically simpler and other benefits. By your numpad logic, given that nowadays we have lots of 60%/65% users (probably more than TKL users), we should split the F-row and navigation cluster from the base kit and offer those separately - in Sci-Fi DSA for example we sold 805 mod kits (contained 60% cluster only) and 412 TKL kits (contained F-Row plus navigation cluster). So it looks like half of the people have 60% and the other half has at least a TKL. This is of course not viable. I do not believe in the strategy of separating a numpad and the data, although interesting, did not convince me, so again I find it hard to justify it as I am writing this. Perhaps I will change my mind in the future, nothing is set in stone, not even my current decision.

Jedi

881

Apr 26, 2019

MiToThank you Mito for making the case above. Another issue which many simply do not consider these days (and partly because there are now at least twice the number of group buys running concurrently) is that all designer sets are in truth a custom unique one of a kind set. The only way anyone could ever purchase the kit is either after market or through starting the entire group buy/hype train/ marketing plan all over again. We buyers still cannot talk with GMK or SP directly for a one off reprint of a kit. My point is that I for one appreciate the full kit with the numpad and the extra layout keys and am willing to pay for it because we "used to" have this idea that if you were in need of specific keys we could trade for those keys or sell those keys to someone who needs them. I would completely side with the "money savers" and the "ecology folks" who absolutely are right that its "a waste of my money" and "its a waste to throw away the unused keys" but again, look at how much it would cost you (aka the buyer) to go to the vendor for reprints or keys that you don't have. Its absolutely cost prohibitive (MOQ of 250 on a custom color base kit from GMK). My argument is that I have traditionally bought extra kits to cover layouts in the event that I bought a board that needed that key. I am more than happy to pay for it as a complete kit. What I absolutely don't understand to be honest is why the 40-percenters don't argue just as strongly to add the 40s keys to the base kit since its a far more rational argument against removing the numpad (that is if GMK and other suppliers had base molds preset to handle that like they do with the numpad). TLDR; thank you

(Edited)

3484

Apr 26, 2019

MiToThe USD in late 2017 (when I made Laser GMK) was more devalued than it is today (1 USD = 0,90 EUR today whilst in late 2017 it was 1 USD = 0,84 EUR) so Laser nowadays would actually be cheaper if you consider USD vs EUR only. I strongly disagree with that statement. When Serika was quoted, the exchange rate was approximately 0.85 EUR = 1 USD

This is Serika's base kit, with an exchange rate of 0.85 at 1000 units it cost $120.

This is Laser's cyberdeck, with an exchange rate of 0.90 at 1000 units it was also $120, not $110 and the kit is definitely bigger than Serika's. I can say with confidence that the GMK Pulse base kit you are presenting on this IC will very likely be at least $120 at 1000 units. And then, if we proceed from that point, and you add your exotic kit for that 40% support and that spacebar kit you are already either really close or over $160. Where GMK Jamón really worked as intended was with the 40s kit, which is a kit, that by the way, has very little overlap with numpads due to the nature of 40%. Back to cost effectiveness, you are proposing two alternative alphanumerics, so if I wanted to cover a TKL keyboard with those Hangul alphas we would be spending at least $165 (based on GMK Laser, with 1000 units for those alphas). But what about someone with an exotic 40% layout? $165 + spacebars (let's say $12) + exotic (let's say $25). A whooping $202. Let's compare that to Jamón, and it would be $145 + $33, so $177, and many 40% users will appreciate it. One less kit to be prone to errors and mistakes in manufacturing phase, it is logistically simpler and other benefits. If logistics was the issue, then you wouldn't be offering Dvorak and Colemak, Euro, Micons, or the two extra alphanumeric keys (which are dependent of your base kit). GMK Jamón wasn't split in 40 kits like MT3 godspeed. It was split by the numpad and ISO. I cannot believe that sorting and QC a base kit that is 20% smaller + the numpads and ISO would take them longer or would be more prone to errors. By your numpad logic, given that nowadays we have lots of 60%/65% users (probably more than TKL users), we should split the F-row and navigation cluster from the base kit and offer those separately. I don't know what point are you trying to prove there because that's not the logic I followed. Why didn't you do that for MT3 Godspeed? Why did the modifiers include 60%, 65%, and TKL support? You drew a line where it was optimal for the kit, so did I with my base kit.

(Edited)

Apr 26, 2019

ZambumonLaser GMK would be cheaper nowadays if GMK didn't rise prices because the Dollar is worth more than it did when the keycaps were bought by Massdrop, this is what I said and it is a simple fact. Your pricing breakdown especially for 40% users is based on many assumptions, I only revealed the base kit for now and like the rest of the group buy the kits are a work in progress. I will remain gathering feedback to tweak the kits further and I'm not looking to revolutionize the way keycaps are sold, I am simply aiming for reasonable prices for Pulse GMK for all niches (40%, fullsize, etc). Extra alphas isn't dependent on a base kit, you're completely wrong in this regard.

> Why did the Godspeed MT3 modifiers include 60%, 65%, and TKL support? Because the community appreciates complete kits and it is logistically efficient to deliver, based on the experience I have with several XDA/DSA/SA/MT3 projects and the feedback I normally get.

ChuckDee

1906

Apr 26, 2019

MiTo @Zambumon - Both of you, thanks for chiming in! It's a really interesting discussion! I love both of your sets and designs, and understand if you have different approaches. But thanks for the replies!

AdmrlAhab

381

Apr 26, 2019

MiTo"Laser GMK would be cheaper nowadays if GMK didn't rise prices because the Dollar is worth more than it did when the keycaps were bought by Massdrop, this is what I said and it is a simple fact." So what you're saying is, it actually wouldn't be cheaper, because they raised their pricing, lol.

Apr 26, 2019

AdmrlAhabGMK “raising prices” is not even completely true just so you know and Laser was already quoted after the price increase for that year.

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