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Evshrug
3772
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Feb 11, 2020
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Hey Pork,
The whole thing about the HD 820 and why it costs more than the HD 800 S is that Sennheiser had to invent and innovate to get it to sound as open with as large a soundstage as it does, while staying truly a closed headphone. I think the isolation is rated at -26 dB, which is actually quite good for a closed headphone. http://www.sennheiser.com/high-end-headphones-audiophiles-hd-820
Next closest current production headphone are the Fostex TH-900 (and the very similar out of production models from Denon). The TH-900 has great soundstage and clarity, however it has a v-shaped sound tuning (emphasis on treble and bass) and it escapes the usual honkiness of closed headphones by venting the cups... it’s not truly sealed, it’s vented. The HD 820 is a little more detailed while also sounding a little more refined and relaxed. Same goes for the Sony Z1R, which has an even more massive bass boost, the mesh back is also vented. ZMF makes great headphones as well, but they’re vented. I’m not sure about the Dan Clark Audio Ether C Flow being vented or not, but I personally just don’t enjoy it’s colder sound signature as much. Audeze makes high-end closed headphones as well, but they don’t have as much soundstage and they’re HUGE (and I think they’re vented as well).
Nothing gives the same isolation as the HD 820, while sounding like an open headphone. I actually prefer them over the HD 800 S, because it has better sub bass extension (the lowest frequencies stay balanced with the mids), and the hybrid pads are a nice touch. Sennheiser wouldn’t say one has sound quality better than another... merely that they designed them for different use cases.
Never say never though... Now that Sennheiser has developed the HD 820, maybe they’ll apply a similar design to the HD 660 S, which would then fit right into the budget you’re looking for. The HD 660 S (in my opinion) sounds right in the middle between the HD 650’s warmth and level of fidelity and the HD 800 S’ agility, clarity, and level of fidelity. The HD 820 will still have a more speakerlike, out-of-your-head presentation with more soundstage (you definitely get something for your money), but a closed HD 660 S might be a good compromise for your budget. But by the time they finish developing such a headphone, you probably could have saved up for the HD 820, so keep that in mind.
(Edited)
zach915m
1
Feb 12, 2020
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EvshrugFWIW @Evshrug on the Atticus and eikon the vents are largely cosmetic as only one is open on eikon and two are open on Atticus. The verite closed has an even smaller vent, making them more closed than most "closed" headphones. The Atticus attenuates 23db, the eikon 25dB and the v closed around 26dB.
Evshrug
3772
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Feb 12, 2020
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zach915mGood to know; and as a gamer (as you know) and for the purposes of this thread, which one presents the most soundstage?
HaVoCTzu
274
Feb 13, 2020
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EvshrugGSP600 is the cheapest closest thing to a HD820 that I can think of.
I own the HD820 and sold the GSP600. obviously a huge difference between the two.
Evshrug
3772
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Feb 13, 2020
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HaVoCTzuI haven’t tried that one, but I like the fact that it has hybrid pads, stock. How do you like the adjustable headband tension?
HaVoCTzu
274
Feb 13, 2020
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EvshrugNo issues with comfort on the GSP 600, it is an outstanding budget choice for gaming.
Pairs well with the gsx1000.
vertical in-game sounds are a little bit tough to distinguish position, but imaging is accurate, soundstage is good. Worth a try. I do recommend them to my gamer buddies.
HaVoCTzu
274
Feb 13, 2020
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EvshrugBut wait, you are wearing HD800 in your profile pic... that blows the GSP600 away.
GSP600 will have a much better sound isolation, but if you want great sound isolation, wait for the THX Panda Wireless headphones. Soundstage is not as large as gsp600 though.
Evshrug
3772
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Feb 13, 2020
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HaVoCTzuRight on, indeed I have an HD 800 in my profile pic (and at home). Also correct, it doesn’t isolate very well 😂 3 for 3, correct again that the GSX 1000 isn’t great at distinguishing vertical positions; it makes a binaural (headphone surround) mix based on Window’s 7.1 surround output. And since you’re correct about everything else, I assume you know that 7.1 surround is only a 2D ring, with no (proper) height cues! Still more realistic (and tactical) than stereo though.
(Edited)
Tup3x
100
Feb 15, 2020
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EvshrugQuite interesting how differently I hear HD 660 S. The only thing it has over HD 650 is speed (HD 600 is about the same if not even faster). Warmth is about the same. Upper mids are really recessed and it sound veiled to me and it's not as bright nor as clear as HD 6XX. HD 600 takes it one thing further while slightly being less warm (not that I consider HD 660 S nor HD 6XX that warm though). HD 660 S has annoying slump right before 6 kHz which makes it more prominent versus the rest around. It doesn't have more treble and the texture doesn't feel as smooth as on HD 6XX and HD 600. It has less perceived detail and clarity than either HD 6XX/600. I have HD 6XX, HD 660 S (2019 version) and HD 600 (HD 58X Jubilee with HD 600 drivers). My ideal headphone would be HD 650 with the speed (and bass) of HD 600. I consider HD 660 S rather dark headphone and the upper mids sound like there's a pillow between the driver and your ear. HD 650/600 push detail effortlessly there - it's like something is missing when swapping on the fly.
HaVoCTzu
274
Feb 15, 2020
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Tup3xI like the HD700 a LOT better than the 660, even though they have the same driver.
Evshrug
3772
Community
Feb 16, 2020
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Tup3xLOL, so as a group, what did we just learn? We hear different things. Could be physiological or psychological, or mix of both.
Anaron, right? I’m not sure if I’m spelling the name right, but someone with a very similar avatar photo on Head-Fi has a name like that.
I’ll stand by what I said though. I don’t like to use the terms “faster speed” or “slow,” because the tempo (and pitch) of music isn’t changing between these headphones, but I know what you’re referring to (I think), and that is where I like to say “more agility” because the driver recovers and expresses changes in frequencies more easily. So agree the driver is faster in the sense that it’s movement seems more agile (and stiffer). And warmth is about the same. I’d say the HD 650 (and HD 600, which I hear a few times a year but don’t own) is less agile, and I believe that’s quite tied into why the HD 650 and 600 sound “smoother” in this case, but because of that same agility I don’t agree that it has less detail, clarity, and a veil. In fact, when I first heard one in October of ... gosh, was it 2016? I felt that by comparison to the HD 650, the extra agility cleared away a light veil on the HD 650, and would be great for anyone who thought the HD 650 was overall veiled. I don’t know why the HD 600 would have a “same or faster” driver compared with the HD 660 S, as technologically the HD 600 and 650 are closely related while the HD 660 S driver has additional structures to it that better control sound waves (and airflow). Axel Grell is at CanJam, if possible tomorrow I can ask him if the driver is stiffer than the HD 650 and 600 driver.
I think there is still a space for all three models. Frankly, I’m falling asleep for tonight 😉
Tup3x
100
Feb 16, 2020
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EvshrugAnarion, yep.
Now, there have been quite a few different style HD 650s around. https://diyaudioheaven.wordpress.com/headphones/measurements/brands-s-se/hd650/ (scroll to end). Depending on what where the HD 650 you've heard lands things could be noticeably different. Actually, the differences are massive. It might be that the current version is much brighter than some in the past or there were duds around. When it comes to "speed" I think it mostly affects bass response with these three and HD 600 and HD 660 S are about the same (both have similar phase response while HD 650 doesn't). And veil... I can't even remotely call either HD 650 nor HD 600 veiled. Upper mids are way too bright for that and I can't spot any dips in treble. With my HD 660 S some sounds lack clarity and sound "muffled" or more like "veiled" - it's very evident when switching between the three on the fly.
No idea if tuning has changed for the HD 660 S. It does sound different to me than it used to when I tested it at shop last time. That being said, brief tests are far from optimal.
Evshrug
3772
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Feb 16, 2020
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Tup3xI don’t think the HD 650 “is veiled” either! Not like it has a muffle or like a trumpet with a mute, but I think the best way I can describe it is the beginning and end of each note starts and ends quicker.
Another thing to consider is all the equipment upstream. Right now, I’m using my Sennheiser HDV820 most of the time, the amp is really good like a Cavalli Liquid Gold, the DAC is ok (Sabre’s previous home theater flagship, the 9018S (S version is an 8 channel variant)), though I think I could squeeze out a little more performance if I had a Hugo 2 to use as a DAC. The HD 650 sounds quite different connected to my Sony ZX300!
Also, measurement gear has become more sophisticated and accurate over time, and the best measurement rigs are something like $60,000, but even then measurements aren’t completely consistent because small changes in placement of the headphone on the microphone will make significant changes in the frequency response and square wave measurements.
I saw Axel Grell today at CanJam NYC, I forgot to ask him about the driver but one of the things he’s really interested in right now is advancing headphone and IEM measurements and ways to make the results more repeatable.
HaVoCTzu
274
Feb 17, 2020
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EvshrugI’ve got a Hugo 2, and a HDV 820, and a HD 6XX. Let me know if you want me to test something.
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