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Eagle19991
23
Jan 6, 2019
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I usually do t comment on things oike this because it spurs the MAC/PC/audiophile whats better thing, but I personally disagree, especially since i have seen the inside of said magical Mac devices abd I can assure you there is little to no isolation for the sound board on the motherboard, a DAC is designed with isolation in mind for both power and stray signal. Also, I have had several audiophile designed motherboards for my PC, where they shield and isolate the entire audio path from the rest of the board, sonetimes to tye point where they use a small Faraday cage. this makes a ton of difference. External DACs, as long as they are properly constructed, will blow away anything the supposed magic fruit can do. This includes the iPod and iPad devices, especially since they have gotten rid of the hedphone jack so now they transit over a connector that us used for power delivery so it is inherently noisy. Mechanically speaking there is no internal DAC from Apple that can supply the clarity and goid sound that a well built external DAC can.
Steve007
24
Jan 7, 2019
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Eagle19991Couldn't agree more except its not the magical fruit but the forbidden fruit of knowledge.
Eagle19991
23
Jan 14, 2019
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sasklaczUsed to be crazy onto the custom PC scene as well as an audio nut, there used to be a whole audiophile line of mobos from asus and gygabyte designed with a DAC built on with an isolated power leg and filters. Have not seen one in a while, and since there is soo much more on a mitherboard I am guessing they don't bother anymore. Was a thing for years though.
RayF
22220
Feb 19, 2019
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Eagle19991
Not commenting on stuff you don't know about is a good rule; you should stick to it more often. Case in point:
"...since they have gotten rid of the headphone jack so now they transit over a connector that us used for power delivery so it is inherently noisy. Mechanically speaking there is no internal DAC..."
The connector as you call it, IS THE FRIG'N DAC, or more accurately, contains the DAC.
(Edited)
Steve007
24
Feb 19, 2019
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RayFIn fact I would suggest that management did miss class that day, they were studying US Gapp requirements so they could optimize EPS which is one of their performance metrics. They didn't move the DAC for isolation purposes LOL.
RayF
22220
Feb 19, 2019
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Steve007
Bummer! Just think Apple got stuck with Tim Cook, Jony Ive, and that Luca Maestri dude when they could just hired some twit from MD's comments section who could have replaced all three--what were they thinking? Well screw it--probably couldn't have afforded you anyway!
(Edited)
Steve007
24
Feb 19, 2019
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RayFWell I would think they were figuring out how to get their hands deeper into your pocket, not why they passed up on you to run the show. I am fairly certain they don't give a ra about what either of us think.
(Edited)
Eagle19991
23
Feb 19, 2019
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RayFI completely get that there is a separate DAC in the plug. Still gets powered by the phone and gets the signal across the same connector, no isolation to speak of. I get electronics and electricity. Been working with it since I was in high school and that was a long time ago.So yeah, the analog part is sort of isolated, but not really.
RayF
22220
Feb 19, 2019
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Eagle19991
I guess some people are confused, we're talking Macintosh Computers (and Apple iPhones) here, not McIntosh hifi components--which is to say, can you suggest another brand of phone or computer that actually out preforms Apples's products or are you talking through your hat? Perhaps you can list the Apple products you own--you know, the ones you've compared to...wait--what were you comparing them to?
(Edited)
Steve007
24
Feb 20, 2019
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RayFYes simple they are or not(not in business). Ray you don't understand the basic business fundamemtal of competing on price or a differentiated product do you.
RayF
22220
Feb 20, 2019
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Steve007
I don't know, Steve--I majored in Accounting with a minor in Business Management Systems? Maybe I should have paid more attention when we covered Wing Nuts in Psychology 101--probably be a little easier to have this conversation with you?
Say, I'm hoping you chose that nom de plume of yours because "Steve006" was already taken?
I mean I'd hate to think I spent all this time talking to a guy with Roger Moore issues!
(Edited)
Eagle19991
23
Feb 20, 2019
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RayFIve personally owned an iphone, I have an iphone work phone, I own an ipad, I have used and functioned almost all recent devices, for sound I have compaired them to multiple devices apple and non apple, to answer your question, I also own several DACs that function for phones and computers. I have made several comparisons. I currently own an LG V35 phone and it alone, withput need for a silly expensive dongle or a separate DAC far surpasses any apple device i have heard for fidelity. It has an integrated quad DAC and Dolby DTS sound shaping. But even at how well it works, my external separately powered, data only across the line DACs are a step above that. Sound quality is not terrible from apple products, but its not amazing like some would have the general population believe. Its a little above average, and there are tons of devices that are far and away above average. I am not an audio or device snob, i think you should use whatever works best for the job, but when it comes to high fidelity audio apple aint best. Its good, a bump above average, but not best, not even close. Best sound i got from an apple phone was using an audioquest dragonfly with a lightning adapter. So not technically all apple. So no, not talking out my hat.
(Edited)
Steve007
24
Feb 20, 2019
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RayFWow don't get upset Ray you can always go back and get an education.
Steve007
24
Feb 20, 2019
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RayFI like James Bond and so do enough people to make it a profitable business. Hey business lesson #1, duh if the product has been successful for 50yrs maybe it works!
RayF
22220
Feb 20, 2019
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Eagle19991
What most Apple iPhone users are listening to comes in the box--it's included, both Apple wired earbuds (that work for music or conversation), and the lighting connector with DAC for external headphones. What you're talking about, to make non-iPhones sound acceptable to good-ish, are external devices that cost anywhere from reasonably-cheap to pretty-damned-expensive. We have that option too, if we want to spend the extra money. Which comes back to, how much better is your sound, per extra dollar you spend.
Apple's sound is above average for the average guy--about a zillion people seem to be happy with their stuff. And about a zillion other people seem to be happy with Samsung's. The number of either persuasion who actually feel compelled to go out and chase "better SQ" by throwing more cash at the issue is a drop in the bucket--just enough to keep a small, cottage industry of mainly Chinese aftermarket electronics manufacturers (and MD) in mostly positive cashflows, selling that small number of users, if-y quality products offering questionable benefits, backed by abysmal support, buggy drivers, and crapy docs written in pigeon-english.
What the average Joe "audio enthusiast" here on MD is buying and listening to, today, will be junk in a drawer next year and the company that made it, will likely no longer support it, and probably won't be in business. This whole low-fi/mid-fi wing of audio equipment is a phase a bunch of twenty-something boys are going through, and will absolutely outgrow over time. In other words, it's not quite the business model that Apple or Samsung is looking throw investment dollars at right now.
On the other hand, it would be dumb to say Apple wasn't aware of the music business--they own it! And if there were a sufficiently large market for headphone amps and external DACS, they would throw resources at it and eventually own that niche of the music business too. I remind you that regardless of how loathed Beats headphones are on this site, they are none the less, the best selling headphones on the market (because that's what everyone who's not buying their shit on MD, is buying.--they are the big market that will keep buying Apple (or Samsung) products over and over again--throughout their lives. Conversely, the twenty-something boys on MD with wired and rubber-banded and stacked together, bomb vest-looking portable systems, will not.
Which is to say, considering the size and transient nature of the fringe audiophile business (not the music business), I'd say Apple is preforming well above average in SQ for the market it serves, with an acceptable overlap in SQ into this market.
In other words, Ford doesn't build motorcycles or ATVs, even though some Ford customers own motorcycles and ATVs.
(Edited)
Eagle19991
23
Feb 20, 2019
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RayFYou missed the LG v35, its a smartphone not a secondary device, and it runs circles around the Iphone for sound and function out of the box, and completely crushes performance to price. To say Apple owns music is a bit silly, might have been true for a bit, but they have been outpaced by many other options. But hey, like I is said from the start, I know this topic stirs up the ire of people in general and this is a perfect example.
RayF
22220
Feb 20, 2019
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Eagle19991LG is a fringe phone manufacturer, like Koenigsegg is a fringe auto manufacturer--as in: not big enough to matter.
But I'm ever so curious, whom exactly do you think owns the music business these days?
Eagle19991
23
Feb 20, 2019
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RayFFringe you say, going from those are the TV guys right? To having a phone that is in the top 10 sold in less than 5 years does not suck, and, so fringe almost all companies are bringing back the headphone jack and installing decent DACs in their phones. Not to say LG was the only onus, but they came out with what they thought people wanted, and surprise! People bought it. As to the second question, I don't think there is a top of the heap anymore in music really, well, Sony and RCA\Victor still owns most of the music, but for sound, there is a large and varied base now, and I for one see that as a great thing. Personally I use FLAC whenever I can and Lossless MP3, or, excuse my oldness, physical SA or HD music\bluray music discs. Apple has been pretty much reactionary as of the last few years. But, I have to say, I am hardware agnostic for the most part. If you like your Beats headphones or your Air Pods, or your Planar Magnetics, or Electro Static Stacks, use em, you be you, everyone is entitled to their own preference. You rock the sound
that suits you, I am only giving my optinion from testing and experience. For me, and apparently others, most Mac DACs are whack. And thats all good. Some is common sense, some is personal preference, but yeah, you be you, I'll be me, and well all be us and keep the audiophile business rolling. May you and everyone else find their perfect sound. I'm still searching, and I will until I find it. I have no reason to go round and round to belabor a point, I get it, to you and others Apple is the gold standard, to me its fools gold... Thats all good.
Sorry for all the edits, my hands are large, the screen is small, and my grammar sucks.
(Edited)
RayF
22220
Feb 21, 2019
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Eagle19991
First of all, I am sick and tired of everyone dumping on BEATS!!!
They are nutritious and very tasty! Second of all, I'm not totally against external devices
They are nutritious and very tasty! Second of all, I'm not totally against external devices
(Edited)
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