If you have a MAC, you don't need a DAC | What you have...

Dec 25, 2018

GiantHeadphoneSquidI'm betting that you don't have a quality DAC unit or you wouldn't be guessing at it. To say that interconnect cables introduced into an output will nullify the advantages of a premium DAC over that of an embedded DCA chip is simply nonsensical. It would help if you had ever even listened to one. Read my post above. A quality outboard DAC device will add such a significant improvement audible difference into the output of ANY laptop or even a high quality motherboard , it is just farcical to suggest otherwise. There are so many parameters, other than S/N ratio, that a quality DAC will add to improve the sound quality of the source, it is simply ignorant to suggest that interconnect cables have anything to do with the sonic improvement that a quality DAC offers at all.

Dec 25, 2018

Dec 25, 2018

bootster1Quality is in the eye of the beholder, but myself, I'd say you bet wrong. My gear is in my MD bio, let me know whether you think it is high enough quality for me to be allowed to have an opinion on the subject, ok :) ? The interconnects and cables add very little noise, but that's exactly my point. Even decent integrated solutions (ESS Sabre for instance) perform to levels well into the dither region of redbook audio. The biggest benefit of quality components (integrated or external) is in quality amplification. Not just a good amount of power but low output impedance (the latter being a common pitfall in low performance integrated systems, including Apple). Don't get me wrong, I love me some spec bragging, but in practice a little pragmatism at the system level pays off.

Dec 25, 2018

Broody

183

Jan 6, 2019

GiantHeadphoneSquidwrong.

Jan 6, 2019

Jan 7, 2019

BroodyRight :P

Jan 7, 2019

Broody

183

Feb 26, 2019

GiantHeadphoneSquidYou're still wrong...but is definitely fun to get a new toy. You're right about that, but that's it. The point you were trying to make about connectors really does not hold up.

Feb 26, 2019

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Feb 26, 2019

BroodyDo you think repetition is a good substitute for substance? When you're talking about 100+ dB SNR like even commodity grade DACs? Yeah, the interconnects absolutely make a difference. . . You're way into the dither region of redbook there for reference, so it's not like it's doing anything audible either way lol. Brood on that :P

Feb 26, 2019

Feb 27, 2019

GiantHeadphoneSquidJust so that you are aware, the FIIO X7 MkII that I have does have a Sabre 9028 PRO DAC chipset with three separate channels for different clock speeds. It also has a superior (compared to others, like in a Mac computer) OP AMP in it, and other qualities that make it superior to any "integrated solution". I was just going over your replies to what I had said, and you were arguing that a Sabre DAC was the shnitz, and you were right on that account. That was my point when I made my initial post stating that my FIIO X7 MkII with it's Sabre 9028 PRO DAC clearly made a world of difference in the audio quality of the output. I am still trying to figure out your effort of trying to make a point that interconnect cables negate (some of) the advantages that an external DAC makes in the final output of the audio. It would be negligible in the scheme of things if, in fact, it does amount to anything at all. There still isn't any proof that the interconnect connectors affect the quality of the sound. I would stand by the assertion that they don't. When you said this, "While it's fun to be able to get a new DAC/toy in your audio chain, the reality is that a quality integrated solution will almost always be superior.", I am going to call that statement out as being totally wrong and without any merit of truth to it.

Feb 27, 2019

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Feb 27, 2019

bootster1I have a 9028 quad in my phone (aka integrated) and its amp is no slouch. I'm glad your FIIO is treating you well (I've heard good things), but its pure hubris to claim it's superior to 'any integrated solution.' Interconnects add a host of EMC issues in the cabling, the connectors, the board mounts and transition to PCB and all the impedance transitions they represent. Even in a digital interconnect, consider the host of premium external DAC units that have to invest in 'decrapifying' the USB interface to avoid audible clocking issues. . . compared to a quality integrated solution (so for instance, an integrated Sabre DAC) by definition you're adding noise sources and losing signal with each transition. The fact that this is generally as inaudible as the performance issues of decent integrated solution is a secondary point. Don't get me wrong, I agree there is value in many dedicated audio solutions, but this is largely due to the quality line out (low output impedance!) not the DAC being external lol.

Feb 27, 2019

Feb 27, 2019

GiantHeadphoneSquidWhat you have just described is best summed up by the phrase, "Can't see the forest for the trees". You are micro-analyzing the circuitry involved with this addition of an external DAC component. The output impedance plays a role in this, but it's not dependent on the final output of the audio. You have just set up a scenario in which the audio cannot be improved if it's impedance meets or exceeds some measurement you deem to be adequate to meet the needs of your "perfect situation". Just because the output impedance is "low" on a computers headphone connection doesn't have any bearing on how that audio output can be improved upon by an external DAC. There are many things that supersede a low output impedance that can greatly improve the audio quality when passed through an external, quality DAC component. It's silly to suggest that by keeping the impedance as low as possible, you can create an audio output that cannot be improved upon by the introduction of an external audio processor. I would also suggest considering a scenario in which the audio is wireless. What quality does a low output impedance impart to a Bluetooth or WiFi signal? You keep shooting yourself in the foot by suggesting that the output of a computer isn't able to be improved upon, just because the impedance is low. I can listen to an A/B/C comparison between an unaltered signal, a signal passed through a FIIO X5 MkII, and a FIIO X7 MkII, and can discern the difference between all three of them. The two situations with the outboard DAC's are superior in many ways to the unaltered output, by far. It's just not even debatable, with any kind of sincerity.

Feb 27, 2019

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Feb 27, 2019

bootster1My point is and has always been if you have an audio chain, the integrated version of it is better than the external, modular version. Dismissing my system level consideration with your fixation on the DAC makes your arboreal analogy ironic. BT / wiresless is a terrible example of low impedance output. Free space is actually really high impedance :P BT antennas are also really tiny compared to the wavelength, so they represent huge impedance discontinuities to the circuit that must be correct by use of a matching circuit. Doesn't particularly impact the quality compared to the bandwidth limitations of the BT channel. Oh, and it's also digital, so it's gonna need a DAC on the far end - it's more like USB than integrated audio out. In answer to your (pretty random!) question, a good amp will impeccably amplify the power of that signal once it's been received and converted to analog - it has no impact on the bandwidth limit of BT. Basically, your argument here would be like me pivoting and saying your super duper external DAC doesn't matter when you're only using 320K compressed audio (Spotify Premium etc). Both are irrelevant to the signal stages we're discussing. . . but if you'd like to discuss the in/outs of wireless transmission, believe me I'd certainly entertain your ignorance lol ;) Amplifiers, unlike DACs, have a first order effect on the transducer. Many PCs (and phones) - including the OP's article that triggers you lot - actually have quite high output impedance. This is also true of an embarrassing number of audiophile marketed kit too FYI. Failing to damp back EMF can produce audible distortion, several thousands of magnitude higher than the differences in commodity tier DACs (and even further compared to performance tier). More common from the audiophile side, high power amps will over-saturate low impedance headphones in audible levels of distortion. Integrated audio varies in quality from crap to audibly transparent. So does external audio gear. Going external in and of itself doesn't add anything outside of additional technological challenges. The reality is that much integrated gear doesn't care about audio quality, so going external is a way to get application focus, but this is despite the inherent technology additions. Increasingly, we're seeing this pivot to integration from vendors like Audeze, or of course Bose and Apple that are integrating the chain right on the headphone - allowing digital correction for the transducer directly either wireless or via lightning cable exclusive features.

Feb 27, 2019

Feb 27, 2019

GiantHeadphoneSquid"My point is and has always been if you have an audio chain, the integrated version of it is better than the external, modular version. Dismissing my system level consideration with your fixation on the DAC makes your arboreal analogy ironic." The assumption so far, based on the question at hand, is whether you need a DAC if you have a MAC. The answers you have given insist that "An integrated solution" is preferred. If you are changing the nature of the answer to stray from the original question, it would help if you mention that in your answer. I was unaware that your answers have been talking about something different than the audio "solution" in the original question. The premise that was made by me is that you are considering any external DAC to be introducing noise and therefore a substandard solution to an external DAC. If you want to change the initial assumption of the question at hand, it would be considerate of you to notify anyone trying to keep up with your "argument" to make the notation that you are starting your premise from a different condition than the original topic's question. Up until now, I was not aware that you had changed the topic from the original question. Proper communication is a necessary element in any discussion.

Feb 27, 2019

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Feb 28, 2019

bootster1Reread my original post, and try to understand the points you're replying to. Going through life and assuming that replies are binary agree/disagree is boring and robs you of the best online experiences, not to mention opportunities to learn. Cheers!

Feb 28, 2019

Feb 28, 2019

GiantHeadphoneSquidRead the topic. It is best to stay on topic on the internet. This isn't a Sunday social club. "Going external means adding 2x connectors and and an interconnect cable, all appreciable noise sources at (the very impressive) S/N levels of even decent commodity DACs these days. . ." That's your topic. Every one of my posts were in response to that premise. The MAC is the "Integrated solution" you are referring to. As to the topic, it is not a respectable solution, and you NEED a respectable DAC to make the "Integrated solution" of a MAC computer have audiophile specifications. Read through it again and you will see that I was "on topic" per your original post. You stand corrected, sir.

(Edited)

Feb 28, 2019

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Feb 28, 2019

bootster1Lol, I'm sure you and that strawman you're humping will be very happy together. I'm happy to talk tech, but bring something fresher than 'but muh fiio!'

Feb 28, 2019

Feb 28, 2019

GiantHeadphoneSquidI was sure you were going to show your true colors eventually, and you didn't disappoint. It's tough to lose an argument, but it takes a lot of courage to just admit it and move on without attacking the person who handed you your ... Try standing tall next time you encounter someone who was serious about a discussion, and you get defeated. EDIT: This isn't so much about a "win, as much as it is about the truth to your "defeat". You got called out for saying that interconnects add noise that negates the advantage of an exterior DAC on a MAC computer, but you persisted to push a failed argument. The proof is in the pudding here. Everyone knows that an external DAC improves the sound of any MAC computer if you want to make it "audiophile quality" sound. It isn't even worth wasting anyone's time over. That was the topic, and that's what this entire discussion you were having tried to discount. But then you stooped... "Lol, I'm sure you and that strawman you're humping will be very happy together." Wow.

(Edited)

Feb 28, 2019

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Feb 28, 2019

bootster1Here's a thought, if the technical system level points don't adhere to your dichotomy, perhaps the issue is with your expectations rather than the technical points raised? Don't get me wrong, your flailing to bluetooth was highly amusing, but it is in good company as a demonstrator for your ignorance on this subject. Declarations of defeat on your scarecrow friend do not any substance to your argument, rather they have made explicit your incorrect assumption.

Feb 28, 2019

Feb 28, 2019

GiantHeadphoneSquidExcept that I brought up Bluetooth as an example. You strayed off topic, so I tried to use an "Example" to make my point. It happens all the time in serious discussions. Let's face it, you would rather talk about "Humping" a strawman than enter into serious discussion of technical subjects. If you were interested in a real discussion, the term "Humping" wouldn't have come up. Bye now.

Feb 28, 2019

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Feb 28, 2019

bootster1GiantHeadphoneSquid Comment hidden.

Feb 28, 2019

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Feb 28, 2019

bootster1-Incorrectly assumes premise -Accuses you of going off topic for correcting him Lol, play stupid games, win stupid prizes. Don't let the door hit you on the way out.

Feb 28, 2019

caphathaway

Dec 26, 2020

bootster1You are horrid.

Dec 26, 2020

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