[Ongoing] Balanced Audio Gear | Check out my last...

Mar 19, 2018

TheFieryHazeBuying a DAC is not going to help you. The problem is not so much the volume (RMS level) as the distortion you're getting because the peaks (signal higher than your RMS level) are being cut off. HD 6XX needs a fairly powerful amp contrary to what many people say about it in the comments section. You can easily plug your laptop into a decent amp to drive it without buying an external DAC though.
If I was eagerly awaiting HD 6XX (instead of already listening to them) and didn't know everything that I know, I would spend that $100 on a Magni3. You can add an external DAC down the road if you think you need to, but that's the cheapest thing I know of that will drive HD 6XX reasonably well that you don't have to build yourself.
Knowing what I know, I would build something tailored to the HD6XX that can push out at least +-16V and has a gain at around 5x with that $100.

Mar 19, 2018

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Mar 19, 2018

HeeftyThanks for the reply! I had heard about the Magni 3 and it was one of the options I was thinking about. So just to make sure I'm on the same note as you, using just the Magni 3 will help fix the issue of noise that I get with my headphones plugged in, right? And, on my current budget, you don't think getting a DAC would be worth the extra money for the sound quality it adds? Sorry if I sound like a beginner to all this, but I just want to make sure that I make an informed decision before spending my money :D

Mar 19, 2018

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DeNicoow

Mar 20, 2018

HeeftyWhy wouldn't a DAC help?

Mar 20, 2018

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Mar 20, 2018

DeNicoowI suppose that was a bad way to say that. Just a DAC isn't going to help, because DACs just decode the signal. They aren't made to drive headphones, they're made to drive an amp. There is definite benefits to buying an upgraded DAC unit. The trouble he's having sounds more like his amp is not working well with his headphones though.

Mar 20, 2018

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Mar 20, 2018

TheFieryHazeI'm going out on a limb somewhat with my assessment. I think it will help, but there might be more to it. The only way to for sure fix the problem is too use both a usb DAC and an amp. The trouble is that I can't recommend anything that fits in your price range that gives you a decoder and an amp that can drive your headphones.
I suspect you're just plugging a high impedance headphone into a poorly designed, weak amp and getting the natural problems that go along with it, but I can't hear what you're hearing. It could just be that the audio output on that computer is really just that bad. Given that the audio outputs on most computers are haphazardly thrown in there to check off a selling point box, there's a very real potential for that.
Have you noticed the noise with other headphones? Particularly low impedance ones? If not, you probably just need an amp.

Mar 20, 2018

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Mar 20, 2018

TheFieryHazeOK well not sure exactly if these will fit your needs, but I run my Fostex T50RPs off of them and get great results (links for example): 1) Fiio E10k is a desktop Dac/Amp that offers a lot for the money about $75 (not balanced) https://www.amazon.com/FiiO-E10K-Headphone-Amplifier-Black/dp/B00LP3AMC2 2) FiiO Q1 Mark II portable Dac/Amp (balanced), about $100, would work as a great replacement for the poor Dac/Amps built in to laptops and phones. https://www.amazon.com/Q1-Mark-II-Native-Amplifier/dp/B0757MH46M/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1521559563&sr=8-3&keywords=Fiio+Dac+amp I use both of these everyday (for the most part) and can't say enough good things about them... For the at or under $100 range, I have not found anything else that even comes close... Hope this helps.

Mar 20, 2018

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Mar 20, 2018

Jay_FNeither of those will fully drive HD 6XX though. They'll certainly be better than the laptop outputs at least.

Mar 20, 2018

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Mar 20, 2018

HeeftySo if you could push the budget over $100 or just recommend me any DAC & amp combo that would be worth it for the price, what would it be?

Mar 20, 2018

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Mar 20, 2018

TheFieryHazeHow much over are we talking. Cost no object or do you want to stay close? For $200 you can have a solid system, but I could easily recommend a $2k stack for HD 6XX. They are that good.

Mar 20, 2018

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Mar 20, 2018

HeeftyI would like to stay close, so around $200 sounds good, but of course lower would be better if the quality can match with the price.

Mar 20, 2018

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Mar 20, 2018

TheFieryHazeFor $200ish I'd grab a Magni3, Topping A30, or build a Butte (http://pmillett.com/butte.htm - Love this amp. I use a modified build with my HD 6XX in my work rig which interestingly is right around that $200 mark) each around $100 then add your $100 DAC of choice. Modi2, Topping D30, SMSL Sanskrit 6th gen, ODAC, etc. I like the D30 (the other part of my work rig).

Mar 20, 2018

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Mar 20, 2018

HeeftyAlright, thanks for the suggestions! I'll check them out and see what works for me :D

Mar 20, 2018

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Dr.SnowGoose

Mar 20, 2018

TheFieryHaze[edit] wow, this came out way longer than I intended - hope it's not too much. I'm using a venerable set of HD600's (granted, not exactly the same cans, but related) and I have had very good luck with the SMSL M3. I've heard someone say the M3 can't drive the HD650's to their "full potential", but I would put that in the "diminishing returns" category. My 600's and even 700's sound just fine. If you're familiar with Z-reviews, he has one for the M3, and says it can power whatever he throws at it, has an excellent build and "no character flaws" in the sound quality. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7QwD5Byp1AU I like it because it's flexible, solid (very physically robust), and has so far worked with no headaches at all. It is both a dac & amp, although you can use it as a dedicated dac with RCA outs to a separate amp, allowing you flexibility to grow your system when you want. It is small, and can be powered right off the same USB cable that carries the data, so nice and simple to port around with just one cable and no power brick. However, if you do want more power, there is a second USB port that you can plug into wall power, so it scales up nicely. It's pretty neutral, and has a reasonable sense of space. But the bottom line for me is that I can pitch it into my bag without any worries that it will suffer damage, I can plug it into the usb, and I'm ready to start blasting some music, not putzing around with cables. It also has a quarter-inch headphone jack (when adapters are necessary, I much prefer a large-to-small over a small-to-large). I'd recommend you take a look. I think I paid about 60 bucks on Massdrop, but since they don't tell you the price on ended drops (will you knock it off already, MD?) I can't say for sure. https://www.massdrop.com/buy/smsl-m3-dac-amp Cheers!

Mar 20, 2018

Mar 20, 2018

Heefty Heefty OK so when you say "fully drive" what is it you are referring too? 1) 60dB is consider "normal" levels and 85dB is consider damaging over extended periods if time. 2) If the amp section can drive the headphone to around 80dB without clipping, the criteria I use for output levels being adequate. 3)Sound signature is always going to be subjective, so I do my best to find DAC/amps that do NOT "color" the signal (unless we are talking tubes, then I like then warm and fuzzy). When talking about the "sub" $100 range the two DAC/amps I recommended WILL drive the Fostex T50RP Planar magnetic headphones to 85dBs... way beyond hearing safe levels, and do so without clipping. SO those two "inexpensive" DAC/amps ( Fiio E10k & FiiO Q1 Mark II), will drive the 300 ohm HD 6XX to over 80dB sound levels... At the $100 or less price range, with the Fiio E10k & FiiO Q1 Mark II, you get mostly "uncolored" sound with adequate sound volumes. ****No limits on money section and my personal favorites*** 1) Desktop Unit: Schiit Stack... DAC; Modi 2 multibit ($250) to the, Digital Amp; Magni 3 ($100) preouts to the, "Tube" Amp; Valhalla 2 ($350) 2) Portable DAC/Amp: xDuoo XD-05 ($200) can easily drive the Fostex T50RP to 85dB levels... SO any 300 ohm easily to 80+dB levels.

Mar 20, 2018

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Mar 20, 2018

TheFieryHazeCheck out my last comment, and please feel free to ask any questions you may have. Also there are other "Portable" amp only units that can produce great results (output 80+dB no clipping) for around the $100 price range, they are rated from high to low (all still really good for the money): 1) FiiO A5 ($130) https://www.head-fi.org/showcase/fiio-a5-portable-headphone-amplifier.21888/reviews#review-17530 2) Aune B1 ($140) 3) Topping NX1s ($40) 4) FiiO A3 ($60)

Mar 20, 2018

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Mar 20, 2018

Dr.SnowGoose YES "Z" is the man when it comes to no BS reviews of audio stuff. I enjoy his sense of humor and his "normal guy" attitude. I agree the S.M.S.L. M3 is an awesome little desktop unit, very comparable to the Fiio stuff... I just find Fiio stuff to have a bit less "colored" sound :) Of course that is my "ears" and everyone hears things differently.

Mar 20, 2018

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Dr.SnowGoose

Mar 20, 2018

Jay_FThumbs up for Fiio - I've had daps and separate amps from them, and I have nothing but praise for their value proposition. Honestly, I'm amazed at what they have achieved, and think they deserve a significant amount of credit for moving portable hi-fi from the crazy-ass stacks and exorbitantly priced units like the original Colorfly to a more user-friendly, and user-affordable direction (that still sounds pretty dang good).
I guess I'm showing my bias, but I just think of a Fiio as something that lives in my pocket rather than on my desk.
Cheers!

Mar 20, 2018

Mar 20, 2018

Dr.SnowGooseI agree my portable stuff tends to be Fiio... my desktop stuff is mostly Schiit Audio stuff.
Schiit being an American company (Florida, USA here) I do my best to support our companies... and it does not hurt they make some awesome stuff.

Mar 20, 2018

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Mar 20, 2018

Jay_FAt 80dBRMS (RMS for this case means volume level) you can get transients that shoot up to 120dBpeak in most 16bit tracks and beyond that if you're listening to 24bit or 32bit MQA. If you can't drive at least 120dBpeak you're getting harmonic distortion (clipping) at normal loud listening levels (this is the first time I've heard someone accuse 80dB of hearing damage. 85dB for 8 straight hours, yes. 90dB for 2 straight hours, yes. But never 80dB for some reason). If all you're focused on is "Can the amp make my headphones loud?" you're misunderstanding why you want a dedicated amp in the first place.
Comparing HD 6XX to T50RP is very much an apples to oranges comparison. T50RP mk3 (50Ω, 92dB/mW) needs 8Vpeak and 160mA peak (1.28W) to get there. HD 6XX needs 11V and 37mA (400mW) to get there. T50RP is current hungry, whereas HD 6XX is Voltage hungry. They both have very different needs.
Magni3 can drive 12V out, Magni2 can't. The Butte that I suggested can drive 12V as well. I'm not sure on the Topping A30, but calculating it back from its power output @ 300Ω load it can get there too.
Now before you start screaming at me about how your gear is just fine, I'll just add that I'm not going to continue this discussion further because this is where it always degrades. If you want to ignore the math feel free.

Mar 20, 2018

Mar 21, 2018

HeeftyYes you are correct about the "math" portion (not as important as you might think) and that yes, it is always better to have more power then needed. YES you are correct I meant 85dB is considered damaging, that was a typo on my part and I will make the proper correction... Also which is why I shoot for 80dB continuous output with out clipping, when I am looking for "budget" amp to meet someones needs. Main reason there are only two budget portable amps on the list I recommended... I have not found anything else that even comes close to being "good enough" to even consider using. I don't like amps that color the source, after all the headphones cause enough of that already. Am I saying that the two budget amps I suggested were the end all be all? ... Not even close, besides that, they are portable DAC/Amps, they are simply a decent example of something within the budget of the OP, and a viable option for the "$100" range... Desktop amps of the same price are going to offer a higher output... simply because you are powering them from an outlet, and not limited to battery power. So more of the cost is spent on the over all quality vs cost of battery. I agree the Magni 3 will offer the best output for price for what is available in the $100 price range. Same reason I was recommending that one as well and same reason that one sits on my desk right now, as well as the other two components. The last bit of your comment about "screaming at me about how your gear is just fine", is a very odd comment... and not that I take offense to it, but what lead you to believe I was going to "scream" at you about anything on here. We are just having a simple discussion about what we consider as "good" gear to drive a 300 ohm headphone for a certain price point. At an adequate volume while still maintaining full range of sound... with out distortion... NOT maxing out the volume or touching the 120dB range (not something I even look at or calculate for). Looking to maintain 80dB continues, NOT worrying about max peak, as there are so many variables that can be considered, just not worth the hassle... to even consider.

Mar 21, 2018

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Mar 21, 2018

HeeftyQuestion, what was your reference for power needs to "drive" the headphones? I am curious, since I don't seem to be getting the same sort of calculations you are.. Here is what I am finding: 1) HD 6XX are 300 ohms rated @ 103 dB(1mw) to produce 120 dBSPL you need 51mW, 3.91V RMS, 13mA RMS, minimum. NOW at "safe" volume of 80dBSPL you need 1mW, 0.55V RMS, 1.8mA RMS minimum. For comparison: 2) Fostex T50RP Mk3 are 50 ohm rated @ 92 dB(1mw) to produce 120dBSPL you need 631mW, 5.627V RMS, and 112.3mA RMS. Hearing safe 80dBSPL you need 1mW, 0.22V RMS, 4.5mA RMS.
These are all minimum power requirements and of course there are many factors that you need to take in to consideration. While the HD 6XX are higher ohm rated, they are very efficient, unlike the T50RP... and that has a greater effect on power needs. However I still don't understand where you are getting your calculations from... SO would be nice to see how you arrived at them.

Mar 21, 2018

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rastus

1391

Mar 21, 2018

Dr.SnowGooseYes, with you on MD dropping the final drop price, when the drop ends, plus the number sold. This would help me in considering waiting for the next drop to open, hit the request button, rather than getting an alternative or same elsewhere.

Mar 21, 2018

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Mar 21, 2018

Jay_FI use a calculator spreadsheet that I put together in college when I could remember the math involved off hand (so I didn't have to remember the math involved off hand). There are similar ones on the internet though.
You're using the wrong units on the HD 6XX. Senn reports sensitivity (dB/V) not efficiency (dB/mW). Sensitivity in dB/V means you have to calculate it differently. When I use their reported sensitivity as efficiency I get the same results that you do. Our numbers are the same for T50RP, you're just looking at RMS values (volume) whereas I'm looking at peak values (minimum for overhead). I typically just want to make sure I've got my 120dB+ covered.
As for the shouting match comment, I suppose I've just had this conversation too many times and without more than one or two exceptions, they all turn into that at this time. Thank you, for viewing this as a discussion as opposed to an attack.
I whole-heartedly agree that the amps/dacs you're recommending will be better than the equipment the OP is currently using. I just won't recommend anything that I'm certain a person will grow out of sooner rather than later. I suppose it's a difference in philosophy between us. For ~$200 he can get to the point where anything more is in the diminishing returns part of the curve. I'm not going to suggest that someone spend the money they have on something now that's better than what they already have rather than saving for something that will give them some awe factor every time they get a damned good set of cans on their head.
Were I to go down that road I'd add the SMSL VMV V2 and SMSL M6 to your list knowing that they won't cover my target overhead, but at low volumes they still sound pretty good.

Mar 21, 2018

Mar 21, 2018

HeeftyThanks for the reply and, I will correct my mistake in the sensitivity rating on the HD 6XX... I am in complete agreement with you on buying something once, even if you have to save for it. Of course online forums like this one, I just try to answer the OPs question (within the limits they set). Is this the best way adress someone's needs... no clue? Just figured offering a solution within the set limits, is better then no one trying to help out. Thanks for the input, and I will say I agree with you, too many times you get people, that can not be "adults" and have an interesting conversation. Heck I look at it this way... if we are never civil, and never try to communicate politely, then we might as well all just call it quits. I enjoy l learning too much... To do that... Anyway thanks for the info, it's an interesting topic, one that I spend way too much time on ;)

Mar 21, 2018

Mar 21, 2018

HeeftySo I've looked around and the Topping D30 seems like the DAC I'll get (once it drops again). But when looking through the amps, I don't know if I should get the A30 or Magni 3. The A30 would look better with the D30 and I can get both in the same drop for less than the D30 and Magni (~$15 or even less depending on shipping). But the Magni seems to be more powerful with less output impedance (although people say the A30 has enough power for the 6XX), and it can ship sooner. It also has a preamp, but I don't know how much of an improvement in audio quality it will have.
Basically my question is, which do you think would be the better situation for me: get the more powerful Magni now and wait for the D30, or to get both the A30 and the D30 at the same time for less?

Mar 21, 2018

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Mar 21, 2018

TheFieryHazeThe output impedance shouldn't not be a problem for HD 6XX since it's still well lower than the impedance of the headphones. I wouldn't want to run anything with lower impedance on it though. I think I would shy away from the A30 even though it is nice to have a matched set for aesthetics.
You could always try the Magni 3 and see if you even care about the DAC thereafter or think of it as a future growth option.

Mar 21, 2018

Mar 22, 2018

HeeftySo then, I guess that means I'll get the Magni 3 soon and hold off on the D30 until it drops again. Hopefully, my audio issues will be fixed and the sound quality will be much better. And thanks for all the help! I greatly appreciate all the answers to the questions I had :D

Mar 22, 2018

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Mar 22, 2018

HeeftyWhat perfect timing too! The drop for the DAC came back today! I'll take it as a sign that I should probably buy it :) https://www.massdrop.com/buy/topping-d30-dac

Mar 22, 2018

Mar 23, 2018

TheFieryHazeSounds like it. Enjoy.

Mar 23, 2018

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