Chinese Knives in 2019
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Looking around Drop I see some love and rather more hate for Chinese knives. It's one of those things where everyone's coming to the table from a slightly different direction and has their own reasons for feeling how they do. Not too many people are neutral on the topic. Sparks fly. Me? I'm a big white Midwesterner, born in a small-ass flyspeck of a town 20 miles south of the edge of nowhere. I've traveled some, but never to China; I've worked for Chinese businessmen, but only in the US; I don't speak the language beyond ordering food and I have about as many natural connections to the Chinese knife industry as I do to the man in the moon. I grew up seeing the cheapest things stamped 'Made in China' and knowing people who had fought, when they were younger, in the Korean War against Chinese 'volunteers'. (Which most of us learned about watching MASH.) To us, China was shady, an enemy, a punchline, a place where cheap BS got made, and if you would have asked me even as late as three years ago if any decent knives were made in China I might have still said no. I might have said 'maybe Taiwan. Not the mainland.' But I don't think I'd have ever said an unqualified yes. So that's where I'm coming from - the long way around. I'm just some dude that's been long since fed up with how lousy some things are made in our society, that one day stopped and took apart his $16 Chinese knife to see why it worked so well, and in the process began slowly but surely changing his mind about Chinese knives. If hearing that's enough that you're already prepared to disagree, and you're gearing up and you're just looking for something to rebut - don't worry. it's cool. I know I won't change your mind for the same reason that I'm the only one that could change mine. Most people don’t change their mind, period. How it is. But some of these facts might surprise you a little all the same... 1) Most Chinese knife makers got their start taking orders from Western firms, with whom they still directly work. A lot of them are OEMs for the Western firms and they make the very knives that they're later accused of ripping off. The deals are made with the understanding that after a noncompete period passes the OEM will be free to market their own variations of the design, within a set of constraints that both parties agreed to in negotiation before finalizing it in the contract. Western firms don't draw too much attention to this sort of thing. They know that by and large their market segments are different anyway. They also, it must be said, keep going back to these OEMs. The deals are lucrative. So while they're generally pleased to see that their fans see them as being victimized by their OEMs, they aren't victims. They're volunteers, and they're taking your money to the bank. 2) Chinese knives sold in the West are commissioned by Western brands as the cheapest priced offerings they plan to sell that year, and their quality level reflects it. You, as the consumer, are supposed to want something more expensive, no matter how expensive your thing already is. You're also supposed to think all Chinese work sucks. Even though you buy it. That's how captive markets work. It's the bottom tier of what's available to you in the store. That's also why when it's really a good piece of work, often you have to work hard to even be able to learn that it was made in China. That’s down to the importers, because they want more money for what they sell. To most folks, Chinese still means cheap. It's only been in the last couple years that the best Chinese names like Reate and WE Knife have had the chops to ask for and get Western pricing for their high quality knives. 3) China has a whole city in its most populous province devoted to pocket knife and scissors manufacture, and they have operated it around the clock since the 1990s. It's called Yangjiang and it's where the majority of Chinese knives are made. They encouraged knifemakers to move there and set up shop. How many cutlery manufacturers are there in Yangjiang? Over 1500. That's not a typo, the city has over one thousand five hundred factories making knives or parts for them. It's the Chinese Solingen. The cost of this investment from the Chinese government was more or less paid for a thousand times over by all the orders from the West it's fulfilled in those decades since. Some of those operations are content to just keep making cheap stuff, because it's what they do. And there's cheap startups that are essentially a building full of parts, stock, CNC machines and people with no secondary education or training in knives churning out knives made with boutique designs and materials but no craft. All that exists. But nowadays in Yangjiang, you also have a core residency of machinists and smiths and designers that know knives, that live and breathe them. Like we do. Like fat guys love pie. It's in the blood with these folks, their parents and sometimes their grandparents made knives. If you ask them what they do, they wouldn't say factory worker. they'd say craftsmen, you understand? They would not be wrong. They know about grinding. They know about heat treating. They know about ergonomics. And they don't want to do cheap work or be known for cheap work anymore. They want to make the best knives anyone can make, and their government has their back. (Google 'Made in China 2025' if you want to understand more about this.) 4) The majority of Chinese knives aren't even intended for Western markets, especially clones. And the people to whom those clones are marketed aren't people who were ever going to buy the original. We get outraged like it's all about us, and these knives are made to be snuck onto our own shelves in an elaborate bamboozle or something, but we only get them over here because enterprising people go get them and resell them in the West. IIRC only about 10% of Chinese branded knife production goes to the US. A large chunk of it goes to Eastern Europe, where Western brands aren’t established or are nalyevo. An increasingly larger piece of it stays in Asia to feed the demands of the new and growing Asian middle class economies. At times like this it's worth remembering that in terms of world population, every seventh person on Earth is quite literally a Chinese farmer, and those people aren't ever gonna buy the original Sebenza. The guy who wanted to buy a Sebenza to impress all his coworkers and buddies isn't going to go 'wait, I have a better idea, I'll impress them more with this $14 version'. And one more point: as many Western designs as the Chinese appropriated without paying for them? They have a ways to go before they catch up to the number of times Western designs have been used by Western companies without properly paying the designer, because of some contractual sleight of law. Let’s not forget that. So while the theory's fine, in practice a lot of the outrages about 'clones' end up being about as victimless a crime as home grown doob. It's what comes up when people discuss their issues with China, because people feel that talking about cloning and intellectual property won't get them accused of racism or whatever, and talking about other things might. The truth is, we usually don't like or dislike things for deep, meaningful, rationally well thought out reasons that we can reliably translate into words when someone asks. Babies like and dislike things. The process really doesn't mature all that much. We just pretend it has. And when you point out a few problems about the outrage over the knife ‘cloning’ issue, it generally doesn’t dissuade the outraged. 5) That's because it's not really about cloning or property rights for most folks. They see that as something that is wrong, not THE thing that is wrong. And folks don’t want to say what THE thing is, out loud, but it's pretty simple to understand: they feel threatened by the Chinese. The only real cultural analogue for this in the American social consciousness is war, which folks run with in their minds and share their words, because they feel an existential threat from the Chinese worker. It's all over their TV, it's what they talk about, they feel like China is a threat to them and many, many people they care about. It's one of the reasons some folks will never in a million years agree to anything I'm saying here -- they'd find it disloyal to their peers and to their kinfolk who used to work in factories that long ago shut down and moved production overseas. It's a social issue. And you know what? Misplaced as I might find it in this case, I respect honor. I get it. Like I keep saying, I don't expect to change anyone's mind. There's just one thing I want to ask you: all those shuttered American factories and workers out of their job.... you know how many of them got closed down because the Chinese came in, bought up and shut down, threw all the skilled laborers out of work, stole their retirement, hauled off everything of value, and went and set up shop back in China so they could make a killing selling us the things we used to make? Folks, this is important -- that has happened zero times. The Chinese, a Communist foreign power and the most likely nation to displace the US one day as the world's greatest superpower, our economic competitors and occasional battlefield enemy, the 'Red Chinese Menace' still never once did that to us. Neither did the Mexicans, neither did the Canadians. How'd those factories shut down? That was all Americans. Our own people. Remember back in the 90s all that stuff about the WTO? That was us. 'Downsizing', 'offshoring', and 'outsourcing'? That was us too. 'Service economy'? Yup -- us. "International supply chain" - us, with bells on. And we let ourselves get away with it, because whenever anyone objected the wealthy trotted out practiced 'free market' arguments, as though these markets are really free anymore, and not largely controlled by a comparative handful of unspeakably wealthy people born from old money and new industry, who were making an absolute filthy killing in the modern marketplace. And made it seem like the people who wanted to keep their jobs were just backwards, and needed to go off to college and learn how to be a software engineer instead. Now here we are, with large social groups of people, majority and minority, who feel like they can't get a job and they don't have a safety cushion. Your friends. My friends. There's a lot of rage. And it keeps people from looking around for the man behind the curtain or the large bag in his hands, which happens to be full of all the money everyone else is missing. And we want someone to blame for it. Enter the Chinese. But the truth is if you buy a SRM or one of the affiliated brand names, or a Ganzo, or a TwoSun or any of the other Chinese brands that are trying to establish themselves in the West, and you open it up and look inside - really look at it -- you're going to see what I saw. And if, like me, you at the time had no particular reason to believe it until you saw it, it's probably going to be a little disconcerting. The build quality and parts are not just a little better than anything the Western brands provide on their budget models (invariably cheap white nylon washers). They're way better than that. Because you literally have to buy and take apart a midtech knife to find better than the sort of washers on a $16 SRM knife. And it goes onto the more expensive knives. If you open up a $25 SRM instead of a $16 one? You find caged ceramic bearings running in milled pockets in the blade. Up and down the cost spectrum they're adding value. Once you see it you can't unsee it. Our manufacturers have been selling us short for a while now, by comparison. They figure a wink is as good as a nod to the blind man. So yeah nowadays this loyal and patriotic American owns a lot of damned good Chinese knives (and a few shitty ones that snuck through the wire....I suggest avoiding Eafengrow, OerLa, WTT, Canku and Albatross in general). I'm happier for that. My Sanrenmus and Ganzos and Harnds and TwoSuns sit right alongside my US knives and UK knives and Spanish knives and Italian knives and German knives and Japanese knives, Nepalese knives, Swedish knives, Pakistani knives, El Salvadoran knives, South African knives, Filipino knives, Finnish knives, French knives. Even got a Swiss knife someplace. They’re knives. I buy them. There are limits. There's still plenty of junky knives coming out of China and I do a little research before I check out a new manufacturer. I seek out proven manufacturers when buying and avoid third parties whenever possible unless they're large enough to be held accountable. I won't buy an outright clone because even I can recognize in that case there's a meaningful property rights issue. That's money I can see coming out of the designer's pocket. But I'm ok going with legal definitions of different. So long as it's made of what it says it's made of, and there's visible design differences and it's got the maker's real logo on it, no fake logos, the law generally doesn't consider it to be a counterfeit item. If we've got that and it's well made, I could honestly GAF if it resembles a wildly successful Western knife. Chances are good I own that one too. By most standards my knife collection is modest but you'd still have to hunt pretty hard to find a US knifemaker who could gripe about my buying habits. If someone can build me something solid and true in this day and age of perfidy and bullshit ephemera, coming from every direction? I’m interested. To me, that's its own honesty. That's where I come out on this. How about you? If that sounds good to you, check out the comments and you'll see a wide range of specific Chinese made knives I've bought and analyzed from an EDC use perspective. And as always -- if you liked this thread, and you have a Chinese made pocket knife that you think is cool, snap a quick pic and share it in the comments!
(Edited)
thumb_uplnconel, SailorJake, and 121 others
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reswright
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Feb 8, 2020
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Land 961 12C27/G-10

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This isn't the first Land axis lock I've picked up -- they had one out about half a year ago with some crazy design lines on it, I liked it but haven't pocketed it for day to day use. The blade has a compound grind fairly standard for SRM, the parent company behind Land knives.
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The axis lock is flawless. Works perfectly, no rub, the tang is polished to minimize rub against the lock bar. What's more, SRM managed to figure out a way to configure the axis lock so that a) when you pull the axis lockbar back, it nudges the blade out a bit, making it much much easier to wrist open, and b) when you wrist it back closed using the axis lock again, it catches instead of wanting to bounce, then releasing the lock retracts it the final bit again. It took me a bit of playing around with it to figure out that it was intentional. That's some first rate engineering! Broken down:
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Fit and finish is standard Land -- excellent. The washer setup is thicker than their standard set, and make the flick effortless. It's got a D pivot, hybrid PB/Nylatron washers, and the sort of axis lock that's a pain in the ass to reassemble. Also a lanyard tube. Back together, with a simple lanyard:
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So that's another axis lock knife with decent steel that's out for under $30 -- and I absolutely love the way they implemented the axis lock, it makes fidget opening and closing very smooth and satisfying to do. I think it's rugged enough to stand up to hard use, to boot -- three standoffs, a tube, a stop pin and a D pivot, thick liners and stout G-10 clips, it's pretty solid. It's not as pretty as a Land 910, but then again, that's because the Land 910 resembles the Sebenza, and this knife isn't trying to do that -- it's its own knife. Good pickup. And hell yes, they improved the axis lock! I did not see that one coming.
(Edited)
Feb 8, 2020
yangguang
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Jan 31, 2020
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Jan 31, 2020
reswright
1310
Jan 31, 2020
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District 9, huh? That looks well done!
Jan 31, 2020
reswright
1310
Jan 22, 2020
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Harnds Beak G-10/14C28N You can add Harnds to the list of Chinese manufacturers that have a working axis lock. I've been a fan for a while but this knife represents a serious elevation of their game.
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First off: that is also a T6 adjustable thumbstud in a slot, so you can move it to your preferred position for flicking, if you want to open via the thumbstud. That works fine, but wristing it open with the axis lock alone also works fine.
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So yeah, get a load of that blade. Jimped choil, like a Spyderco.
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look at that jimping.
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Not just thumb ramp - finger jimping, for work like whittling. More people should do that. But it's not just that they did it. Look at how precise it is, even with the bevel. That's mature manufacturing at work. Did I mention it's under $30? Because it is. Did I mention it took a second to tune to grav drop? It did.
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I will be keeping this!
Jan 22, 2020
reswright
1310
Jan 23, 2020
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Jan 23, 2020
reswright
1310
Jan 16, 2020
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The Civivi Picaro. Wonder where they got the design idea?
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Jan 16, 2020
Llee00
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Jan 13, 2020
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Very well said
Jan 13, 2020
reswright
1310
Jan 12, 2020
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WE Knife Double Helix S35VN/Ti

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Everyone here knows about WE at this point -- if not for their prominence in the knife industry, then because they make the majority of Drop's house branded knives. And a lot of people may recognize this knife already -- it's the Double Helix, which has garnered some prestigious awards and words of praise from across the knife industry for its innovative design. WE's probably the number one knife manufacturer in China. This knife's lock is called a 'slide lock', and in some ways it's very much like an axis lock. In other critical ways it is very unlike an axis lock -- it's in the middle of the knife, the lockbar is fitting into a notch milled into the curve of the tang, not resting against a raised section of the tang, and where an axis lock is fit with two bent pieces of wire called Omega Springs on the inside of the knife to give it its tension against the lockface, the Slide Lock springs are on the outside of the knife -- that gray metal lollipop shaped thing. There's one on either side, and to disengage the slide lock you have to pull back on both sides of the lockbar, which tensions the spring. The spring without tension:
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With tension:
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The good news is, it works like a precision instrument. The S35VN blade rolls like a bank vault -- I haven't taken this knife apart to verify it what the bearings are. At first I thought they must be thrust bearings because of the smoothness of the roll, but the more I fiddle with it the more I think it's regular ball bearings. It's beyond a grav drop knife in any case -- you retract the lockbar, and the blade drops free of the handle so quickly you expect there to be a ton of play in the pivot. But there isn't any.
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So it's got a cool, functional, but very different design. No production American knives I know of that come with any form of axis lock are rolling on bearings like this -- every single one I have utilizes PB washers. It's got a beautifully milled blade, top grade hardware, lots of cool little touches here and there, and is the only axis-like locking knife that I've seen a premium Chinese knifemaker sell. And I've had it for weeks, and seen no mechanical problems at all. Very well made. But I don't pocket it. I think it's cool and well made and it indeed demonstrates serious design and manufacturing chops for WE, but it doesn't go in my pocket. So what gives? The Double Helix is the knife version of a concept car, and at the end of the day those are nearly always better as testbeds for new technologies than they are as daily drivers. That's the case with this knife -- it's cool, it does something in a new way, and flaunts the company's manufacturing prowess. WE probably needed to make something like this just as a demonstrator that they were going to make cool knives that didn't depend on Western patented tech. But as cool as the Double Helix is, it's a bit thick for a WE -- a millimeter or so thicker than a Griptilian, which isn't a thin knife, and the DH has no bevel to the all metal handle, and that makes it much less comfortable in the hand. And the spring tension is extremely high on the Double Helix compared to a standard axis lock -- and not by mistake. It has to be. The lockbar has to work much harder to stay in the notch of the Double Helix and hence keep the knife locked open than it does with an axis lock. The latter gains tremendous benefits in leverage from being further away from the pivot, and because the shear force can't move in the same direction the axis lock slides, and can with the Double Helix, the spring of the Double Helix needs to handle a much heavier load. All of that put together means that a knife with a sliding Double Helix lock is either going to take more force to actuate than an axis lock, or it will be less effective than one, pick your poison, and WE quite rightfully went with a safer design. I'd love to see WE, and for that matter Reate and Rike and Real Steel and Tuya and TwoSun, making axis lock knives. But I kinda wish they just went ahead and made them actual axis locking knives and called it something else, because a) the axis lock is better than its imitators, b) the patent has expired, and so long as they don't invoke the Axis Lock trademark, they're legally free to utilize the tech, and c) the companies that have done the absolute best with the axis lock didn't try to make it terribly different. The Hogue ABLE lock is nothing more than a standard axis lock where the slot and spring are in slightly different positions, and it fidget opens like a dream. The Manix 2 ball bearing lock doesn't try to be the Axis lock at all, and while it's fine, it's much much harder on the fingers. When you compare it to the axis lock that Tonifes have, or the one that Ganzos have, or the one that Lands have, or the ones that Y-Start put on the JIN02, let alone the Hogue ABLE lock, you'd rather have the latter, even though the Manix 2 is the best knife of the lot. If you want an easy and ergonomic EDC fidget knife this isn't it - the handle is much more stylized than it is ergonomic, and the lock springs take some grunt to bend. Like I said, it's a concept car. At over $200 it's not cheap enough for the budget minded MacGyvers among us. This is a knife to get if you collect different types of opener, or want something that'll grav drop out of the box, no questions asked, or are just interested in thinking outside the box and like cool new things, or like having things on hand to help spark creative thinking. If you're a 'one knife at a time' kinda guy, and you are willing to spend $200-250 on your pocket knife, and handfeel matters a lot to you, and you're in the Chinese Knives thread for a reason -- look at other WE models like the Deacon, or a Rike M series, or a Real Steel S class, or a Tuya Envy2, or if you can find the rare sale on them, a Reate as they otherwise start around $299. I guess what I'm saying is that it's cool that WE did this knife, and I'm content with the purchase... but the next one they do can just have some matter of axis-lock-with-a-different-name like Hogue did, and it'll be better. Or a plunge lock like Real Steel had on the Griffin -- some call it a button lock but the majority of US sellers classified it as a plunge locking knife. Or -- and this would maybe even be best of all - start making knives with pocket deployers like Emerson's wave and Cold Steel and Krudo's thumb discs, and now Rike's hex wrench, because once you've had one of those for a bit you realize it's always going to be faster than any other open, even an automatic. There's something very, very cool about an automatic knife, but I think that even if/when switchblades and auto OTFs become legal in my state I will continue to carry pocket deployers, it's one of those things where once you get used to it you never wanna go back. Long story short, I kinda feel like I bought a Model T Ford that's been made out of space age materials. Cool and interesting, nice to show your friends and so on -- but exhausting to drive, when compared to a modern car.
(Edited)
Jan 12, 2020
Disciple
3
Jan 8, 2020
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I enjoyed the authenticity of this post.
Jan 8, 2020
reswright
1310
Jan 8, 2020
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Simple a statement as that is, it is a profound compliment. The world is sorely lacking in authenticity these days, and I’m gratified that something I have done has added to the available sum.
Jan 8, 2020
Disciple
3
Jan 9, 2020
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It's a difficult thing to be authentic and honest with oneself. When someone has the courage to view the world not just in terms of nations, but in terms of people and make an effort to convey that to others with opposing beliefs, it can change others for the better. Your words have given me plenty to think - about life, about developing nations and people, about preconceived notions and lying to ourselves about certain truths of life just to maintain the peace within our own communities and loved ones. There are many topics you tackled there, so I'll be visiting it quite often. Thank you brother. I'm certain this expression of thoughtfullness will seep to other areas of your life as well. Let us keep searching.
(Edited)
Jan 9, 2020
reswright
1310
Jan 4, 2020
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When I started this thread, you could routinely pick up TwoSuns in M390 and titanium for $70 or less on the bay. The other day I saw one on that was ~$340 and still going, and the new models are just flying out of the design shop. I don't think TwoSuns are actually even marketed in the US, it's all word of mouth. The scarcity creates demand.
Jan 4, 2020
reswright
1310
Jan 8, 2020
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Kind of a catch 22, right? You want people to know, but the more that know, the fewer steals can be found on the Bay. I know every time I started talking about TwoSuns there were people where probably itching to say 'you're killing me Smalls' but in the end I do this as a hobby more than as some kind of monetary pursuit. It looks like the ceiling is higher on prices on stuff when it's fresh. The bottom price doesn't look like it's moved as much, it just takes a lot longer before you can snag a knife at the bargain rate. Three or four months ago you'd see the first copy of a M390 knife go for $150 but the fourth would be like $112 and the tenth would sell in the $80s. Now the price stays above $100 for a couple months, it seems like, before you can snag a really nice one for cheap. More buyers with deep pockets is what that means if you ask me. I figure that what we're seeing is richer people coming into the hobby and in some ways the eBay store is perfect for them, they get to flex a little while winning auctions, and they get the knife first, but it's still cheap compared to what they're used to paying. The D2 and G-10 knives seem like their prices are relatively flat, and anything new with Ti and CF is selling like hotcakes even if it's only the Sandvik and not S90V or M390 like most of their prestige knives are now, which suggests that people have more money than knife sense. I love a Sandvik knife as much as anyone but when you see Sandvik flippers selling for $120 and M390 flippers in the $70s from the same brand, someone somewhere is confused about a few things. There's a number of really cool looking new models out right now, but I'm forcing myself to lay back a bit and wait. Prices may never come down, I suppose, but I think they will. Just takes waiting.
Jan 8, 2020
reswright
1310
Jan 8, 2020
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and I won’t speak for LTK but anytime TwoSun wants to thank me, I’d just as soon take it in trade, if ya know what I mean. A full CF scale over Ti liner Jaeger in S90V, say, or a deep blue anodized full Ti Dynamo or Stargazer in M390, you know - something they’d wanna make anyway. a bit surprised that they appear to have no merch
Jan 8, 2020
reswright
1310
Jan 2, 2020
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Bad Blood Razorhoof Folder, 8Cr14MoV/G-10

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This is a fairly inexpensive but well put together folding version of the custom Razorhoof made by Sean Kendrick.
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Broken down you can see it's simple, with nylon washers, what looks like an aluminum backspacer, and clean but not polished components. Thanks to @Realsteel12 I have a small supply of hybrid PB and nylatron washers that I've been retrofitting onto some of my older knives. They're the right size for this knife:
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These flip faster than a corresponding set of single PB washers; the more washers you have turning, the more the forces of friction are 'farmed out' over multiple surfaces during the deployment of the blade. The apertures collect and redistribute lube while also reducing the fricative surface of the washer moving against the tang. Some people say they form a slight vacuum over time and that helps the flip? I don't know that that's actually what happens but it sounds nice. Back together with the scale died to look a little more sanguine, which I found apropos considering the 'Bad Blood' name. Simple lanyard, simple bead from Almost Every Day Carry and black paracord.
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This was actually one of the first Chinese knives I bought when I was starting my personal research. It was fun to putter around with it. Did the flip improve from the hybrid washers? Yup! as a matter of fact I can front flip this knife open now. Nice and smooth. Really the only thing holding Bad Blood back, if you ask me, is that they're sticking with 8Cr14MoV. Their build quality merits something like VG-10 or at least some Sandvik. If they had that, and if they stepped up the washer game a bit, they'd be among the better budget Chinese manufacturers out there, instead of just being good.
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Anyway here's the knife back at its post, guarding the cocktail bar:
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(Edited)
Jan 2, 2020
reswright
1310
Dec 21, 2019
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Harnds Vanguard, D2/G10

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The aesthetics of the latest Harnds knife are pretty similar to those of the Warrior/General knives, but they've added a thumb disk to this effort instead of the thumbstud. The knives are equally flippable; they're turning on nice, thick bronze washers.
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The nitride coating on the blade looks like they weathered it some -- the long and short of it is, some of it had come off into the lubricant on the pivot and the washers, and they looked like they had ink on them. It wasn't a gritty flip at all, so the particles were very fine indeed, but I saw no sense in leaving it alone and cleaned the entire works. Pretty happy with the pickup.
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Big fan of understated design that lets the elements do the talking. This is good stuff.
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(Edited)
Dec 21, 2019
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