Massdrop x Oblotzky GMK Space Cadet Keycap Set Discussions | Drop

Aug 2, 2018

@Oblotzky - looks like 1.75u backspace is missing from the 40bit kit? Guessing its just an oversight but figured i would double check.

Aug 2, 2018

timzillaHeyo,
sorry to tell you but 1.75u Backspace and 2u Backspace (for one of the Pearl layouts) are not included indeed.

Aug 3, 2018

Oblotzky @Oblotzky - So I was trying to figure out what i would need to cover my boards, started talking to a few folks about their plans and i get the impression that there is some kind of fight or feud going on between some designers? Honestly i dont have the time or desire to understand why - but its clear that the losers are us (consumers).
I understand that it's impossible to accommodate every layout out there, but the 40's kit is 1 key away from fitting thousands of boards (minivan) - a huge portion of which were sold right here on Massdrop. I really hope that you will reconsider or that @YanboWu can pull some strings to ensure that products previously sold by Massdrop will be fully supported in the future.

Cursor

104

Aug 3, 2018

timzillaYeah I was thinking this kit would look good an the Kumo I ordered recently, but unfortunately that isn’t supported either, is it?

Cursor

104

Aug 4, 2018

OblotzkyHey Oblotzky, Sorry if this has been addressed elsewhere, but why include the entire numrow and leave out 1.75u/2u backspace? When I think 40%, I think MiniVan, which Massdrop has sold hundreds of. I can’t think of a single 40% that includes numrow...?

Jebbra

466

Aug 4, 2018

CursorPreonic

anthony.cary

123

Aug 4, 2018

JebbraPreonic is 50%.

Jebbra

466

Aug 4, 2018

anthony.caryTrue, the name of the kit might be a bit misleading in this case but where else we must put 50% support?

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Aug 7, 2018

timzilla @Oblotzky still no response? Just to confirm you are purposefully excluding 1 keycap due to a grudge or issues you have with another designer/maker? all at my (and every other minivan owner's) expense?

Aug 7, 2018

timzillaI have decided not to support his boards at this time due to a conflict. The fact that existing owners are affected by this is a very unfortunate side-effect, and not at all a reason or intention of this decision.

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Aug 7, 2018

OblotzkySo you are putting your own personal conflicts and feelings ahead of your consumer base? As this product is being sold through Massdrop are they aware of this? and is this also their opinion/decision?
No matter what you think or say you are putting your own personal conflicts ahead of the well being of the community members who support you. This is not a side-effect its a decision you made.

anthony.cary

123

Aug 7, 2018

OblotzkyThat's really unfortunate. I'm not a 40% user, and I love that the Assembly kit covers my Ergodox without using blanks. This sort of attitude will affect my decision making in whether to join this drop, though.

Aug 7, 2018

timzillaThe fact that existing owners would be affected by this change was the reason why I hesitated for a long time. It wasn't an easy decision.
And no, I am not putting my 'personal conflicts/feelings' ahead of the well being of the community. It is exactly what I want to protect. The Van Keyboard has done a number of things that I felt hurt it, from advertising his own products in other peoples group buys, expecting favoritism from reddit moderators, to promoting clones of other peoples keyset designs via his own keycap profile. That is not exactly behavior that I am comfortable with to support.

Aug 7, 2018

anthony.caryThat is absolutely understandable and reasonable. I just wish it was easy for me to explain the big picture here.

Aug 7, 2018

OblotzkyI'm not involved in any of those things you mentioned, but as an active Redditor and Seattle group member none of those things had a negative impact on me, or seemed to cause a major stir in the community, outside of excitement from most users about a new, inexpensive, keycap profile. I'm sure that it caused some apprehension from designers, but looking back at the sets I don't see any clones - No more so than this very keycap set is a clone of an SA set which was a clone of a keyboard from the 1980s.
I'm not going to continue to argue or give counterpoints to items you listed because that isn't the point. Right/wrong, good/bad - you shouldn't hold consumers accountable for the actions of a company, which is what you are doing.
You choosing to drop Minivan support may have some indirect impact on future Minivan sales and hurt the creator (which seems to be your intention), but it has a direct impact on every one of us who owns, loves, and uses a Minivan. That is you 100% putting your own personal conflict ahead of the community.

atari.zero.tv

738

Atari Zero TV

Aug 8, 2018

timzillaYeah, this whole thing just kinda sucks for the end user. And, to expand on it... what if there's suddenly internet beef with some other major keyset producer or keyboard designer? It all just seems arbitrary and petty. And as you've stated, the reason MiniVan was left out is because of some misunderstandings and "feud" over some choices in colors in a completely different keyset sculpt that was only in prototype stage AND that was not even produced.

DougRenfrew

Aug 9, 2018

Oblotzky> to promoting clones of other peoples keyset designs via his own keycap profile
The keycap set here is a clone in a different profile from the original. You're doing the exact same thing you're criticizing hm for.

Aug 10, 2018

DougRenfrewI love that it’s not just me bringing this to light. This set is essentially a clone of another keyset was made in another profile. The same complaint that @Oblotzky and a few of his buddies have used as the basis of excluding support for the Minivan form their keysets. Not only that, but it uses secondary legends from the SA version. Now I do recall him posting permission from the former designer, but isn’t this a bit hypocritical? I guess @Oblotzky , @Zambumon and @T0mb3ry feel their pockets threatened by a keyset/profile that has yet to be manufactured. So much so, that every time I have brought up the subject on GH they have repeated reported my questions and comments to the moderators. This is truly sad and only hurts the rest of us in the community. Maybe we should ourselves boycott these keysets, as the designers have decided to use their grudges to boycott our keyboards.

virid

Aug 10, 2018

OblotzkyHow was the HuB project cloning other people's designs if it used a custom key-cap profile and custom modifier legends? You are essentially arguing that people can claim ownership of color combinations which is patently absurd. You are begging to hear dumb comments like: "Oblotzky used GQM in Oblivion, so he copied Carbon! Hur-dur. Design thief!"
And if we are going to draw arbitrary lines in the sand, perhaps Matt3o owns the idea of designs based on classic computers and GMK Space Cadet is ripping off DSA Retro. I mean, really, where does this nonsense end?
Also, HuB was canceled--why are you even bringing it up? It made your argument sound like sour grapes.
I don't really have a dog in this fight as I don't have a personal interest in GMK Space Cadet. But I own a minivan, supported the HuB project, and also purchased SA Oblivion (including the 40bit kit to use w/ my minivan). If you want to do right by the community, you should just try and support the boards your fans/customers have and enjoy using and leave it at that.
Good luck with the group buy.

Cursor

104

Aug 11, 2018

OblotzkyWhen you disagree with someone, is it often not better to say "Hmmm, that's not how I'd do things..." and move on? Or is it better to spite both them *and* the community members who like/own their projects? Bring your love, expertise, talent, and passion (all of which you truly possess) to the community--but leave judgement of community members/their projects out.
Something I love about the group buy process is that often consumers can have a dialogue with the creator and make the project better by considering their feedback. And, from perhaps from a selfish point of view, maybe you can come closer to hitting MOQ/price drops on 40s by making a simple kit revision here. You're not "supporting" a maker you dislike. You're supporting the section of our community that loves those boards and likes and admires the fine work that you have done on GMK Space Cadet.
I have a very high opinion of you and your work and hope that you'll consider changing your mind and adding the one key to 40s that will open this project to Minivan owners/lovers. Thanks for reading and considering.

Aug 13, 2018

CursorGood try, but @Oblotzky has made up his mind. Such a shame that one key could have been added during the IC phase. Maybe the 40bit kit would have more than the 51 buyers it has currently.

Aug 24, 2018

OblotzkySo, we only have 8 days before the end of the drop, and I'm pretty sure that a lot of people are boycotting the 40bit because of the feud between you and Van. There's a good chance we won't make MOQ for this kit. I know that you wanted to do the right thing here by making a stand against what you take to be bad behavior, and I know all of the people boycotting wanted to make a stand to support a keyboard type they love... but... now there's a good chance that this excellent set isn't going to get made, and I'm pretty bummed. I passed up other drops to get on this one. I know it's not a big deal—it's just a bunch of plastic—but, Oblotzky, what are you gonna do to settle this?

Aug 24, 2018

keyofnightThe best advice I can give at this point is to figure out what is best for you. @Oblotzky isn’t going to change the kits this far into the GB. I personally am not supporting anyone’s keys, no matter how much I like them, if they can’t provide compatibility to the 40s segment. Especially if they are doing it on purpose.

evangs

1493

Aug 24, 2018

keyofnightIt's not really a feud between me and @Oblotzky. This is a much more one sided thing going on here. Let me say that I was excited for this set, but won't be purchasing because I can't use it on any of my keyboards. I don't have any problems with @Oblotzky, @MiTo, @T0mb3ry, or @Zambumon but they all seem to have a problem with me. I just wish @YanboWu could give us a statement from Massdrop on the issue, especially since Massdrop found a few more MiniVan's to sell. It is definitely sending a mixed message currently.

Aug 24, 2018

evangsJust an FYI, MD has no say over kits/what designers include or don't include in their kits.

MiTo

13962

MiTo

Aug 25, 2018

evangsNot sure why you mention my name nor what you‘re talking about as I included keycaps for the Mini Van/others and changed legends that you asked on literally all projects I have done so far. You can see the most recent evidence of that in the link below.
I don’t have anything against anyone, this is a hobby for me. I develop my ideas with the community, express my creativity and leave it at that.
https://www.massdrop.com/buy/pulse-sa-keycap-set/talk/2033837?utm_source

Aug 25, 2018

MiToIt’s great to hear your reply. So we can expect for you to continue your support for the Minivan and other layouts in your future sets?

Aug 25, 2018

evangsNo offense intended here, @evangs, but... I don't care very much what keycap sets support your keyboards. Many awesome keycap sets don't even properly support 1u grid ortho boards, and those are pretty common these days (gherkin, planck, contra, preonic, subatomic, xd75, they're out there for sure). So, if a set doesn't support your board, take it as an L, talk to the maker privately, and try to work it out for the next drop.
Further, the way you just called out @MiTo was kind of strange, so I'm starting to get a little wary. I mean, you called him out on the other drop, and then you called him out in this one, as if he didn't comply when you called him out on the other one? Really weird. Are you trying to *pressure* people into supporting your product through these kinds of "call outs"? If so, then I'm not sure I'm okay with it. I'm still reserving judgment, though.
Anyway... to be honest, part of me wants to just buy the full set anyway so I don't have to even think about this drama. The full set will accommodate my Preonic and give me lots of options.

Aug 25, 2018

keyofnightAll sets aren't made for all keyboards, especially super niche ones. There's nothing wrong with not covering a board and no drama should come if this, like you said. I think if you like it you should just hop on it!

evangs

1493

Aug 25, 2018

keyofnightthere has been a push to intentionally remove a single key from 40% kits that would otherwise support the minivan. Take that however you will. this is a great set and I would encourage anyone interested to support it. I just won’t be buying it as I wouldn’t be able to use it.

Aug 26, 2018

livingspeedbumpI agree that no drama should become of this. But, @keyofnight , those keymakers have specifically said they aren't supporting the Minivan. I don't recall seeing specifically anything directly said by @MiTo ( whom I've been a huge fan of for years). Yet there just seems to be a focused effort to exclude the 1.75u backsdpace from kits to spite the Minivan, with us fans having to deal with the repercussions. I hope we can all be adults and move past whatever the spiteful resentment towards @evangs and TheVanKeyboards there is and support the wider community (which includes countless "niche" keyboards). And @livingspeedbump , we need R3 of SA Jukebox (my all-time favorite keyset).

Aug 26, 2018

livingspeedbumpYeah, I'm already on the drop for the 40bit. I'm just afraid it won't make MOQ. Yeah, I might just go for the full set just to make sure I get caps. :)

Aug 26, 2018

keyofnightI'm thinking if the 40bit had that one key, it would open it up to dozens of more orders and probably reach MoQ. All that time and effort put on creating these child kits gone to waste. Such a shame.

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Aug 26, 2018

mikethetigerMost of the people I know boycotting this drop don't own a minivan or anything like it. They're boycotting it because the maker is leaving the key out. So now there's a good chance that both sides of this debate are ruining things for everyone else who is on the drop already (myself included).

Aug 26, 2018

keyofnightMD usually buys extras, I wouldn't worry about it tipping!

Aug 26, 2018

mikethetigerR3 is coming with a lot of big updates ;)

Aug 26, 2018

keyofnightWell, there you have it. ;(

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