Drop + Invyr Holy Panda Mechanical Switches Discussions | Drop

Dec 6, 2018

Hey everyone! Glad to see so much excitement, and I'm excited to finally make these happen. We've been working on this behind the scenes since March, and keeping it under wraps for so long has been nerve-wracking. Thanks to Yanbo and the team for working with me on these fantastic switches. If anyone has any questions I'll do my best to answer them!

neojonathan

Dec 6, 2018

Mech27These are repaired molds and people are kinda worried that they are not going to be similar to the OG Holy Panda. Are review samples being sent out so that people can see the reviews before dropping the money on these Holy Panda? Also, are these going to be limited ?

yanfali

1544

Dec 6, 2018

Mech27Who's manufacturing these switches? Bsun or Kailh?

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Dec 6, 2018

neojonathanI'm receiving some samples this week and will be sending some out to trusted community members!

Dec 6, 2018

yanfaliThe casings are manufactured with the original Panda moulds from BSUN and the stems are Massdrop's Halo stems.

Ensaum

635

Dec 6, 2018

Mech27So they won't be BSUN brown housings and leaves then then right? Because those where not the same as og pandas.

Hikasaki

1282

Dec 6, 2018

EnsaumYeah I’m wondering that as well. If the housing is manufactured by BSUN then these are more like “GSUS” switches than it would as the OG Holy Panda.

sir_shakes

135

Dec 6, 2018

Mech27Still curious if the leafs are the same.

PiNkrOY

Dec 6, 2018

Mech27'Super excited for the drop! Such a good price, better than it was before these even had resale value!

hameru

Dec 6, 2018

Mech27Will the springs be 67g as they were with the original panda? Will they be unlubed? Will there be more runs in the future?

Dec 6, 2018

Mech27Will these be the same springs used as in the OGs?

Dec 6, 2018

hameruThe springs are the original Panda's 67g springs! I'm not entirely sure about lubing, I'll have to get an answer for that!

Dec 6, 2018

MeMeBigBoyThese are the same 67g springs used in the original pandas.

neojonathan

Dec 6, 2018

Mech27Will there be future rounds ? I saw a message below and read something about only one round.

Dec 6, 2018

neojonathanFor now we are only planning on this one production run. It's entirely possible for there to be more, but there's no immediate plans.

Ensaum

635

Dec 6, 2018

HikasakiNo comment on the leaves still. Suspicion is growing :/

Dec 6, 2018

EnsaumThere should not be any differences between the leaves.

steveowashere

335

Dec 6, 2018

Mech27Could you comment about the Polycarbonate top housing listed in the specs? This wasn't on OG pandas if i'm not mistaken?

Dec 6, 2018

steveowashereThe OG Pandas did indeed use a non-clear polycarbonate top housing, after getting clarification from the factory.

steveowashere

335

Dec 6, 2018

Mech27Understood, thanks for the reply.

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Johnklacks

201

Dec 6, 2018

Mech27Any rough as sand estimate on the production timeline/ ship date/

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Virecaa

Dec 6, 2018

Mech27When are we expecting to have those reviews from some community members, so we can verify these are 100% Holy Pandas? What is the purchase time window to jump in the GB?

Dec 6, 2018

VirecaaMassdrop has reached out to some reviewers in the community to get samples out to them! Tomorrow morning you will be able to see how long the drop will run for.

the_high_5

Dec 6, 2018

Mech27Just to be sure, this isn't a flash sale of first come first serve up to a predetermined quantity? I hope it isn't because I'm already on edge from excitement on this drop, and I don't want to add stress from a FCFS type sale. Thanks!

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Pixie

Dec 6, 2018

Mech27I wanna try! These sound amazing :o

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meatloaf

182

Dec 6, 2018

the_high_5These won't be FCFS and no quantity limit so you'll be able to buy as much as you want.

rgaindwal

Dec 7, 2018

Mech27Hey! Will this have price drops similar to keycaps if a whole lot of people orders?

YanboWu

8549

Collaborations

Dec 7, 2018

rgaindwalThe price per switch is lower if you purchase 110 or more switches. However there will not be price drops like in keycap drops.

vit4minx

Dec 7, 2018

Mech27Is there any lube on the Stems?

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Dec 7, 2018

Mech272) We will be repairing the injection tool to bring back the original switch housing - this does take time we've budgeted more time so this process isn't rushed So why are samples being sent out already? How close to final production will the samples be? When can we expect samples to arrive to reviewers?

(Edited)

Dec 7, 2018

Hikasakithe original invyr panda was made by BSUN so it should make you feel good.

(Edited)

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OofOuchOwie

Dec 7, 2018

Mech27Where can i see videos of these switches? Who did you send samples to?

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Koatl

181

Dec 7, 2018

JuiceionThis is a critical question. If the injection tool has not already been repaired, then does that mean the samples being sent out are not the same as the final product? If so, any results from testing will likely be inaccurate and potentially misleading (not at the fault of the reviewers, of course). Please clarify this issue.

(Edited)

Dec 7, 2018

KoatlI think you’re just pouring gasoline on conspiracy driven speculation. Chill out

ohjav

Dec 7, 2018

schoolbusHow is that a conspiracy? If I produce a review sample using tooling, send those samples out, then change the tooling in some respect (ie. "fix it"), then why should I, as a buyer, expect the new product to be the same as or perform as the old product before tooling was changed? This is, as mentioned, the most important question that needs to be answered.

nebuchadnezzar

Dec 7, 2018

schoolbusHow is any of what he said conspiracy driven? It deserves clarification. When Yanbo says, "I’ve been pretty impressed by the tactility of the switch and will be sending samples out to some community members so they can verify that these are indeed the same switches," it suggests that they've already been manufactured on a small scale. And we know he's not talking about the Holy Panda switches in general, because he mentions sending out samples to verify that the manufacturing process is legit. It is possible he was in fact talking about his experience with Holy Panda switches out in the wild and when he mentions sending samples, MAYBE he meant later down the line after the injection mold has repaired (why he is so confident in the Massdrop ones without having seen samples himself, idk). It's also likely that there is some complex manufacturing processes going on in the background that Yanbo doesn't mention because the post would probably get really lengthy and technical. Regardless, none of this is very clear and a lot of people on r/mk were confused about it too. It's very reasonable to ask the organizers to clarify on specifics because none of us really know what the final product is going to look like vs. the original HP.

Zeimus

Dec 7, 2018

nebuchadnezzarNo. They never said they made new ones. He could have just tried og holy panda or kb someone let them use. I think people keep making things up between lines. They also said they had the chance to do this and in the end will use original so never did they say they already were manufacturing. I am sure they meant they will have samples post production sent out for community reviews. And like some have stated, injection molding degrades over time, so must be reworked. They were vague for a reason.

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Vendrad

Dec 7, 2018

Mech27Sorry if already explained, but how are you able to send out samples if the moulds need to be repaired?

Koatl

181

Dec 7, 2018

schoolbusYou're incorrect here. I didn't even know there was a conspiracy. What I'm pointing to is a possible mistake (like previously putting out messed up plates on the RSIII, charging people for the Laser ALT board significantly sooner than was stated it would be charged and without telling anyone, etc.). Based on what's already been written (not what I'm imagining or people are saying) samples have been sent out but the injection tool has not been fixed. You don't see that as a simple, practical issue? The samples being sent out were made on equipment which hasn't even been finalized. So why would anyone depend upon the sample data? Worse, why would MD choose to use that data to promote their product? I just want to know how people can have some assurance that the data being provided is accurate and comparable to the final product. I don't know if you've ever done a sound test for recording, or a stage rehearsal for performances, but the test/rehearsal must be done exactly as the final recording/performance will be done, using the same exact equipment/stage/lighting/clothes/everything. It's no different for production. it sounds like a test is being done on a product which is not final, and MD seems to be indicating that we can all get some assurance of the product based on the results of this test. It's just illogical. Hopefully I'm just misunderstanding something. UPDATE: I've read somewhere it's the leaves which determine the tactility, not the housing. So perhaps it doesn't even matter that the housing isn't fixed yet. But then again, if that's true, why make a point of specifying that the housing is being fixed? I assume the housing has some factor in determining tactility.

(Edited)

Cyphre

2710

Dec 7, 2018

KoatlI'd say the 'conspiracy' is more about the assumption about what repair is actually needed. In the world of production injection molded parts, there are a variety of things that could need repair, but have nothing to do with being able to actually produce individual parts. Any number of things could go wrong and not effect the final parts, merely the expediency of the process. Simple assumptions that could be made is that this isn't a mold to produce one single piece at a time, especially when it comes to small, numerous, repeatable parts like switch housings. So an issue of any kind wouldn't necessarily put the entire tooling out of commission. But hey, hopefully someone has more information on what is being updated with regards to the tooling.

Koatl

181

Dec 7, 2018

CyphreYeah if that's the case, that is very good info. I'm definitely making an assumption that the whole reason the HP couldn't be reproduced is being unable to repair the original tool. And that it was attempted but failed. But maybe that's incorrect. Just because I've read it doesn't make it true. I think it's safer to assume that MD is confident enough to let the now 1,051 orders to be made, and that the final will be close enough to the sample that the data is valid. Perhaps the housing wasn't really the issue to begin with. But if it the housing really is the key to the OG HP, then if the final product doesn't turn out exactly like the sample I think there's going to be a lot of upset customers for MD to deal with. Also seems like, in that case, it would be a waste of time of the reviewers.

(Edited)

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Johnny831

285

Dec 7, 2018

Mech27Any force curve graphs available? Wondering how these compare to Outemu Sky 68gs, and Hako Royal Clears.

Virecaa

Dec 7, 2018

Mech27Who are those reviewers and when we can estimate they will review it? I don't know if these switches are the Invyr Panda that are alrady in stock in the Bsun manufactory and then you are going to add the Halo stem, or if these are retooled Pandas with the new molds. Can you clarify? Because for me don't make sense that you reached or already sent (I don't know) samples to some reviewers but you also said that the molds are being fixed at this time

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Vegetables

Dec 7, 2018

Mech27Can I get confirmation that these switches will pop in to the CTRL keyboard without any soldering?

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MiTo

13959

MiTo

Dec 8, 2018

VegetablesThey will indeed.

meatloaf

182

Dec 8, 2018

VegetablesYes these are compatible with the Ctrl Keyboard and no soldering required.

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Vegetables

Dec 8, 2018

MiToThanks for the swift response!

nebuchadnezzar

Dec 8, 2018

ZeimusYeah, I addressed that by saying "it is possible he was in fact talking about his experience with Holy Panda switches out in the wild." I already gave him the benefit of the doubt. Even still, if you rave about Holy Pandas that you are recreating and immediately follow it up by saying "[I] will be sending samples out to some community members so they can verify these are indeed the same switches," how can anyone not interpret that as him talking about newly produced switches? The point of my post was that the organizers should clarify on this specific issue, because like Koatl said, these seemingly contradictory messages from the Massdrop team is puzzling. I'm relatively confident that Massdrop knows what its doing given the company's pedigree and I'm sure it wasn't the team's intention to mislead or trick its buyers. With that being said, now that people have raised their concern over the matter, the team should address the issue and clarify. Also - "they were vague for a reason" - none of the things you mentioned is a good reason for being vague. You just repeated points I already addressed in my original post. If you're selling an item that has basically never been mass produced (I'm talking about Holy Pandas being sold in its completed state, not the components) and is notorious in the community for being supposedly impossible to manufacture due to stories about its mold, then you should be as specific as possible.

rafamundez

Dec 8, 2018

Mech27Will you make a video showing the switches and using them?

Dec 9, 2018

Mech27I am going to go ahead and ask this again since everyone seems to be dodging this question. We have an answer from Puddsy on GeekHack, but I would really like an answer from someone who is officially attached to this drop. "2) We will be repairing the injection tool to bring back the original switch housing - this does take time we've budgeted more time so this process isn't rushed" So why are samples being sent out already? How close to final production will the samples be? When can we expect samples to arrive to reviewers?

(Edited)

zidG

Dec 10, 2018

Mech27any news on sending of samples for reviews? thanks EDIT: anyone knows if some huge names in mk community already did a review re: the switch from this drop?

(Edited)

myroblyte

Dec 12, 2018

Mech27can these do rgb? I wanna put some on the CTRL. If you have pics that would be great as well.

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yanfali

1544

Dec 12, 2018

myroblyteno, sorry they are opaque not transparent.

heldpizza

319

Dec 12, 2018

myroblyteIf I am not mistaken you can install an LED through the gap in the housing but these are opaque so not the best switches for RGB.

myroblyte

Dec 12, 2018

heldpizzathanks

(Edited)

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ricson.chua

Dec 16, 2018

Mech27Any updates on the review samples?

Ebloa_Dnak

Dec 17, 2018

ricson.chua+1

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Dec 17, 2018

ricson.chuaZisk or MassDrop would probably be the best to have answer this rather than 27. @YanboWu Would you be able to provide a reasoning for this, please?

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Maxff

Dec 17, 2018

Mech27Where are the samples that you said you'd have by now?

haha_yes

Dec 19, 2018

Mech27are these switches compatible with the CTRL keyboard?

steveowashere

335

Dec 19, 2018

haha_yesYes they are. You can just take out the old switches and put these right in.

(Edited)

Dec 20, 2018

Mech27Alright, Quakemz has received the "samples" and has confirmed that they are the original pandas from the original runs, and NOT Massdrop Holy Pandas. This is absolutely unacceptable behavior. I realize it was announced that they were originals (from R1&R2) and not from the 'fixed' Massdrop moulds, but it seems like it was sent as an afterthought to Quakemz when looking at his Update#1. Why would you even need to send an original 1+ year old holy panda to Quakemz, the original creator of the frankenswitch?. Quakemz already has them on hand, and surely at least one person knew this before sending the originals his way for review. I don't know why there is almost no communication with the community but you guys need to start speaking up instead of leaving everyone in the dark. I've got an order but after today I decided to go with a backup panda instead of sitting on this as a guarantee just in case this ends in disaster. I'm really hoping someone from Massdrop or Invyr will speak up soon *publicly* to change that.

(Edited)

poodude

143

Dec 20, 2018

Mech27All lies! There are no samples. The samples provided to Quakemz are original holy pandas. You have some explaining to do.

Ensaum

635

Dec 20, 2018

JuiceionPeace, I'm out. This level of drama and dishonesty just isn't worth it. There are other good tactile options out there anyways.

(Edited)

Dec 20, 2018

JuiceionY'all are so dramatic, they're keyboard switches. And they sent them to a few known reviewers, and since Quake knows what an OG feels like he can verify they'll be the same. Just wait a bit more for YanboWu or Zisk to respond, they're busy people.

Ebloa_Dnak

Dec 20, 2018

EnsaumAgreed. This is pathetic on all parts.

Dec 20, 2018

MeMeBigBoyThe ones they sent were old stock from the 2017 geekhack runs and not made with the new repaired moulds. I understand that these are keyboard switches, but 1. They are not cheap, people will be paying upwards of $100+, and 2. The way they are handling this drop is abysmal at best. The way they disclosed the information about them being old stock to Quakemz seemed like it was unintentional because he didn't find out until *AFTER* he reviewed them under the assumption they were new MD pandas. Communication is key in community funded pre-order group buys, they are making extremely confusing decisions that will lead to people feeling like they are being decieved, and I haven't heard any comments about this since day one through anyone attached to massdrop or the buy. I've heard rumors from Puddsy, and I've heard information that was passed through Quakemz, I still haven't heard anything from 27 or massdrop about any updates or how the samples are being sent out with broken tooling (which we now know is because they were old stock samples from the 2017 group buys). That's why this is aggrivating, it's not because they are switches and I'm a butthurt fanatic, it's because the way they have been running this drop is very sketchy, silent, and uncoordinated.

(Edited)

JustCallMeCrash

136

Dec 20, 2018

KoatlI'd think the housing has more to do with the sound than the feel.

Dec 20, 2018

JuiceionI know it's fun to feel entitled, become "butthurt fanatic" and ride other comments and fuel conspiracy theories but if you're so convinced Massdrop is purposefully deceiving the community don't buy them. Here's what you need to know:

Massdrop feels confident they can make "Holy Pandas" and as such that is why this drop opened. If Massdrop didn't feel confident they could replicate Holy Panda's then they wouldn't have done this- plain and simple. If Massdrop sold 2k+ Holy Panda's and the community received something else, I don't think Massdrop could survive the reputation hit within the community. Nobody would ever buy from them again.
You, and many many others on these comments don't really even understand what's involved in making injection molded components, etc especially as it pertains to keyboard switches. You see tool, you see repair and you see other things and immediately start assuming Massdrop is trying to pull a fast one on you. (Why? Do you think Massdrop, a multi-million dollar company decided throwing everything away was worth making a couple grand on a bunch of plastic collectors?)
Could Massdrop do a better job communicating things? Yeah of course, that's a dead horse that's been shot, slaughtered, revived and the cycle has repeated. I think the reality is Massdrop is between a rock and a hard place and can't provide the "samples" that the community wants at the moment- but intend to. Should they have waited to open the drop before that? Probably.

If you don't trust Massdrop, then why are you even debating giving them money? That being said, I think it was shady how Massdrop opened this drop unprepared in what appears to be just to curb the GSUS drop- but ultimately it lead to the organizer of that drop making the price per switch reasonable rather than severely upcharged... so the customer won once again. (Thanks Massdrop!) Everything in life is a risk vs reward, and clearly you're too scared of the risk... So maybe sit this one out. At the end of the day I'm pretty confident Massdrop will deliver, and if they can't- I'm pretty confident they'll refund everyone's orders, your life will continue and you can go back to happily buying $5 switches on Mechmarket.

(Edited)

Dec 20, 2018

schoolbus+1 for Massdrop adding some competition, resulting in me getting GSUS for much less:) Either way, they’re getting my $$ for the Halos.

upin

Dec 20, 2018

kakiharawell, i'm with you. I was gonna get HP from MD for lesser price but thanks to MD also, GSUS is cheaper, so i just buy it from supervan and halo from MD. And also, i don't need to wait until may to get it.

Dec 20, 2018

upinExactly! Hopefully they’ll be shipping soon. :)

Dec 20, 2018

schoolbusI probably know more about injection moulding than you think. The tooling was broken, it's out of tolerance. They have been unable to repair it for over a year now so my assumption is that it's extremely out of tolerance somehow, maybe due to the original factory mishandling them or improper maintenance/storage. I am mainly unnerved by the way they are handling this; the extreme silence and unusual choices they are making. I already made a comment on Reddit stating I think they have everyone's best interest in mind, but the way they are going about it is not how they should be and is raising more questions than they answer. I personally will be holding my order through massdrop until we get the actual samples which are rumored to be sent out between January and March. I'm still glad they opened this when they did, especially due to the overinflation of the Gsus switch, but sending out original 2017 pandas that are pre-assembled to the person who created them was an extremely questionable move. And then not disclosing the information until he directly asked if they were made using the repaired tooling was also another questionable move.

(Edited)

josh_b

266

Dec 20, 2018

JuiceionI'm curious about what could have happened to the tooling. If the damage is fairly trivial (e.g. mounting points) then it should still be possible to run a small batch of samples. If the damage is severe (e.g. corrosion) then I don't see how any sort of repair is possible, short of retooling the dies from scratch. But it sounds like the issue is somewhere in between, and I have no idea what that could be. Any insight?

Dec 20, 2018

josh_bNobody has any insight because nobody commenting has any involvement. Have confidence in Massdrop handling it or don't. Anything in between is you pretending to be involved, which you aren't- nor were you asked to :)

(Edited)

josh_b

266

Dec 21, 2018

schoolbusSo I wasn't asked to be involved... I wasn't asked to join this drop? No one wants me around here, no one wants me to spend my money? Fair enough. I'll see myself to the door. Also, no. I have no confidence in Massdrop's ability to deliver. Only hope and unrealistic optimism. That's why I want answers. Like so many others in this thread. Do you have confidence in md? Really? Well then I have a bridge for sale that you might be interested in.

(Edited by moderator AlexPk)

Dec 21, 2018

josh_bI have bought plenty of things on here and had little to no issues. Massdrop is offering you a solution and you’re pissed off about it. Please, pull out your FMEA analysis and point to me where you’re an expert. PM me for $10 pandas because please believe I can promise you the real thing, and since you’re nice I’ll cut you a deal.

(Edited by moderator AlexPk)

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Dec 21, 2018

josh_bThe thing that seems most realistic to me is (given steel tooling) that someone stored them without prepping them for storage/taking the proper precautions and they ended up with some rust. This isn't a killer but obviously is expensive and tedious to fix. Given the thickness of the metal in applications like this it wouldn't absolutely destroy them, but definitely eat irregularly into at least a few thousandths of an inch of the surface which would be more than enough to be out of tolerance. If they were using aluminum tooling my best guess would just be improper handling and overall carelessness (someone untrained or unfamiliar with aluminum tooling), or a bad alloy. I would probably assume not a bad alloy because the cost of current and future repair would easily be higher than just getting new ones. Obviously I have no idea what the actual cause is, but those would be my best guesses.

josh_b

266

Dec 21, 2018

JuiceionThanks for the reply. Everything you said makes sense. The thing is, I have no idea how one would be able to fix pitting from rust. I can't imagine the amount of labor that would require. And skill, given the scale of switch parts. I really do want to believe that Massdrop can make this happen, but it seems so improbable at this point, and they haven't acknowledged or described any of the challenges. If they did, I'd actually have more confidence in their ability to pull it off. It's just so shady. At this point my only excuse for staying interested is that well, it's md, and that's kind of how they operate. Regardless, I appreciate your comments. It's too bad that we have to speculate about this stuff in a vacuum. Also, do you know the story on this schoolbus tool? He's too much of a dipshit to be a md shill, so I have no idea why he's got such a hardon. Pretty sure I recognize your name from r/mk so maybe I'll shoot you a pm over there.

Dec 21, 2018

josh_bI'm gonna stay in because, like you said, MD and communication don't exist in the same conversation, but I really do think it'll be the same as an OG Panda. Not a lot of skin off my back if not, but if it is, could be a great personal benefit!

Elrick

2105

Dec 27, 2018

VegetablesThat was why I bought these switches, for my future Pulse CTRL Keyboard.

privacyid01

May 11, 2019

Mech27anyone can tell me how the 50 option is out of stock? I only need 70 switches

aklorian

151

May 12, 2019

Mech27How can we order 20/50 switches? If these are pre production and kits aren't yet made how can they be out of stock? Surely you'd rather sell us something rather than nothing. I absolutely will not purchase more than I need. I'm willing to spend lots of money on my keebs (I just ordered $300 worth of Laser caps and accessories) but I'm not going to be forced to purchase more than I desire.

(Edited)

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May 13, 2019

aklorianThere’s an option for 70 switches. It’s not base (20) plus 70, it’s 70 total.

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aklorian

151

May 13, 2019

kakiharaI know. :) I don't want 70 switches total though I only want 50. I'll have to grab some at a later date or maybe used at some point.

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