Lake People G111 MKII Headphone Amplifier Discussions | Drop

May 29, 2024

nick_tHow do you know?

May 29, 2024

May 30, 2024

mattrisBecause most amps have either own, loan or try with proper a/b testing. And if I am able to hear the violectric v281 and sounds the same with majority of the amplifiers which is transparent, nuetral and powerful, am sure the G111 are the same as well especially designed by Lake People, same company from Germany.

May 30, 2024

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May 30, 2024

nick_tAh, so you don't know that the G111 "sounds the same as the THX 789". Any claim or prediction - based on your own experiences, and without facts or data - is irrelevant. Also, "transparent, neutral and powerful" are not measurable terms, only relative ones.

May 30, 2024

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May 30, 2024

mattrisHowever, most specs are similar and even via facts and data along with ASR, prove otherwise for inaudible difference. And if you read my description carefully, violectric v281 and G111 are from the same company and designers where the V281 is twice the price. The same could be said with the rest of other Drop amplifiers where I have tested. Moreover, I did compare with higher range HPA and its no different it would be the same as G111 considering it will sounds similar to G111. There is data and facts. And if you want to take it further, coducting a/b with a/b switch tester, it always proves placebo. Transparency and nuetral are not relative but rather mesaurable objective data. Moreover, power can be consider as watts measure via distortion level that can be based on measurement. If you want to take it further, use subjective analysis via a/b switch and be honest. Majority of the times, people failed in blind a/b test.

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May 30, 2024

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May 30, 2024

nick_tContrary your claim, you've presented no facts or data on this amplifier... nor have you conducted a blind a/b test, comparing it to the THX 789. Everything that you've typed here shows you made your claim and conclusion about the G111 without having used it. How do you define "inaudible difference"? Can a measurement rig register soundstage size, imaging accuracy, and the extracted details of the music being played? Even if components originate "from the same company and designers", different models, by default, should be expected to sound different, especially when there is a large price different. How different is down to each listener. "... other Drop amplifiers... would be the same as G111 considering it will sounds similar to G111." Same or similar, which is it? Seems you're just typing lots in an attempt to mask your ignorance and unsubstantiated claim. Are there threshold measurable specifications that an audio component must reach in order to be objectively classified as 'transparent', 'neutral', or powerful? "... be honest."

May 30, 2024

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May 30, 2024

mattrisContrary to what I stated earlier, data and facts, can be found via specs and measurements via ASR or any other source. Moreover, such data and facts cannot be deduced unless one able to provide or provide third party measurements such ASR for instance. Secondly, speaking from subjective unbias testing, if one able to conduct a/b test with difference in price tag where they perform extremely identical where both amplifiers unable to determine sub atomic levels of difference in noise, distortion and audible threshold, meaning to say identical price of G111 and the unit itself would sound 100% similar if one would be able to conduct true a/b and if they are honest with themselves without placebo nonesense. Therefore, even without hearing the G111 specifically, one can affirm that it sounds exactly the same as the THX 789 for instance. Remember, $3000 violectric headphone ampliers has been tested by me, personally as well. There has been many a/b test as well as ASR conclusion of most transparent amplifiers. Thirdly, the description mumbo jumbo via subjective audio description along with stats also derived the similar information converying as any other transparent amps. Meaning to say G111 can simply be deduce as transparent, linear and powerful, period. Its not like the description stated the sound signature of the amplifier. I also have talked to many audio engineer about this and also aware that they need to keep it as a secret or they would lost their job. I understand its a capitalist world we live in, where we need to hinders the truth. Pertaining to your questions. We define inaudible difference, where we unable to hear subatomic levels of noise and distortion where such perceivable audible difference of details cannot be hear or via placebo with multiple a/b testing or multiple plug and play without a/b switch. Especially where most amplifiers are designed well and performs merely identical. Sure, noise and distortion are not everything but most amplification focus on transparency, colourless sound. Can a measurement rig register soundstage size, imaging accuracy, and the extracted details of the music being played ? No, but scientific data and audio engineering able to deduce where FR can influence imaging and soundstage, etc. However, am not well verse and technical enough to explain. There is a youtube video on it. But to be direct, while we cannot record and register such audio attributes, we can hear them via subjectively but even so, there is still no audible difference among amplifiers. Lastly, we have engineering and scientific explanation where how an amplifier does not determine or influence, soundstage, size, imaging and accuracy, everything are based on your technicalities of the tranducer where the amplifier, amplifies the signal at lower distortion that powers the driver. Normally, when headphones sounds different due to different amplification its mainly because of power delivery such as providing more current to power hungry planars. Of course, we can also discuss output impedance but thats besides the point. But even if subjectivist does not believe in science and how things works, an appropriate methodology and parameter of testing of true a/b testing, must be conduct properly. Components that originate from the same company and designers usually associate with similar sound. Because they use the same chip, design and similar approach of sound signature. Capisortor, transformer, circitry design that mainly determine sound signature. However, every brand and models have similar approach of focusing on transparency. You have brands such as Burson, Violectric, Singxer, etc. providing Class A design while reinserting that they do not focus on measurements. But reality, while we unable to hear subatomic levels of detail and distortion, the sound outcome is still identical. Expensive components does not determine sound quality and people would need to know how amplifiers works and which components and design are the main contributing factors that produce sound quality. For that, you would need to discuss with honest engineers. Now, dont believe in marketing hype ? Then conduct a/b test and be honest. An individual can have differen subjective taste and placebo, the fact remains that most amplifiers sounds the same, and we have both objective measurement and subjective approach via true a/b to prove it. Regarding G111 and THX789, again, if you read my description carefully, violectric v281 and G111 are from the same company and designers where the V281 is twice the price. In restrospect, the same could be said with the rest of other Drop amplifiers where I have tested. Combining with other expensive $3000 range that sounds similar to THX 789 and with the usual mumbo jumbo marketing of the G111, I can gurantee it sounds the same. Its not ignorance and unsubstantiated claim, its debunking and revealing the truth. And lets say, if I do not have subtsantiate proof and proper argument to back up, at the end of the I am able to make claim as part of my opinion as well as free speech. But either way, the reality is that the G111 sounds similar to even the expensive range to higher end Violetric similar to other brands. Which begs the question, why bother spending tons of cash for amplifiers that sounds the same which is a different discussion for another time. Arguments like that its the main reason why I got ban on audio forums because they not willing to admit the truth. Anyway, this is not to shit on G111, am sure its a fantastic amplifier with great value with components and design from Lake People and branding at their own price. But the fact still remains among any other amplifiers on the market. Are there threshold measurable specifications that an audio component must reach in order to be objectively classified as 'transparent', 'neutral', or powerful? Yes, the number games. But how can we determine since not every amplifiers or dac able to sent for measurements for review ? Well, most users have satisfactory results on driving headphones right ? Meaning to say, they are as transparent and nuetral while powerful enough to drive hard to drive headphones. So am sure, G111 is no exception just like every other amplifiers on the market unless one of the unit have bad defects or badly designed and false marketing. All in all, just so you know, I have so many multiple amplifiers that sounds the same.

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May 30, 2024

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May 30, 2024

nick_t"... data and facts, can be found via specs and measurements via ASR or any other source." You made the claim, so you should quote them here if they are to have any relevance. "... subjective unbias testing" does not exist. Everyone has different ears, hearing discernment abilities, and individual preferences. "... extremely identical" "... merely identical" "... the G111 sounds similar" Two products either 'sound the same', or they sound different, if just slightly. Though, that slight difference to you may be major to someone else. Claims like 'people are experiencing placebo effect' and 'need to be honest with themselves' are dismissive and, quite frankly, insulting.

"Therefore, even without hearing the G111 specifically, one can affirm that it sounds exactly the same as the THX 789 for instance." "there is still no audible difference among amplifiers." Categorically false. Even if you had heard these two amplifiers - directly compared, which you haven't - others may be able to discern a difference between them. Also, the DAC, cables, and headphones would affect the audio chain, and hence, the overall resulting sound. "... its a capitalist world we live in, where we need to hinders the truth." "... I can gurantee it sounds the same. Its not ignorance and unsubstantiated claim, its debunking and revealing the truth." What truth? What have you debunked? "Normally, when headphones sounds different due to different amplification its mainly because of power delivery such as providing more current to power hungry planars. Of course, we can also discuss output impedance but thats besides the point." No, it's not. Noise, distortion, and output impedance are all important factors to consider when deciding which amplifier would suit a specific use case... based on one's sonic preference. "But even if subjectivist does not believe in science and how things works, an appropriate methodology and parameter of testing of true a/b testing, must be conduct properly." Regarding the G111 and THX 789, "conduct a/b test and be honest." "... the fact remains that most amplifiers sounds the same, and we have both objective measurement and subjective approach via true a/b to prove it." False. You already admitted that measurement rigs cannot register soundstage size, imaging accuracy, and extracted details of the music being played. Amplifiers from different companies should be expected to sound different, if only slightly in some cases. "Are there threshold measurable specifications that an audio component must reach in order to be objectively classified as 'transparent', 'neutral', or powerful? Yes, the number games." What numbers, exactly? What constitutes "badly designed"? "I have so many multiple amplifiers that sounds the same." I'm curious, which ones? "And lets say, if I do not have subtsantiate proof and proper argument to back up, at the end of the I am able to make claim as part of my opinion as well as free speech." And with that, you have admitted that you did not make your claim based in truth or fact, only assumption, "period". "... I got ban on audio forums because they not willing to admit the truth." From what I gather, you were probably blathering too much, insistent that own staunch point of view was reality, making claims that you couldn't substantiate. Regardless of your personal experiences, you cannot claim as fact that other people don't hear/perceive audio exactly like you. Human ears/brains are not measurement rigs. Indeed, you are "not well verse and technical enough to explain". Typing lots does not mask your ignorance and unsubstantiated claim in the slightest. Some advice for you: Being so closed-minded doesn't benefit you here. It is often necessary to expand one's perspective in order to gain better understanding about a topic. In audio, measurements and expectations do not tell the full story. There's so much more.

May 30, 2024

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May 31, 2024

mattrisAgain, you failed to comprehend everything and look everything as black and white but rather taking everything out of context and criticize each of my statement where am simply rebutting and trying to enlighten you. But rather you come out with every defensive narrative in the book to the point you want to defeat my statement for watever reasoning. Look, even if I were to explain engineering, data and science, you would still refuse to comply so its inevitable and pointless. Moreover, I would need to use and cite intext citation and use watever assertion as well as reach out engineering expert to explain how amplifiers or even dac operates and what cause amplification to sound different as well as the overall internal engineering design. Anyway, am going to make few comment or response as well as a bit of debate. Be sure to respond my questioning as well. I will explain and respond for each paragraph to the next that correspond from your prior statement and critique. You can quote small narrative here and there, put a claimed I never showed any evidence or simply make a claim. Again, you asked where are the data and facts, I mentioned it can be found via specs and measurement via ASR or any other objectivist audio source. While, I also did mentioned there are because of independent source and some reviewer are unbiased and mostly science based, not every company would like to sponsor their products due to their credibility and reputation are at stake. While many people or independent reviews/source such as ASR, unable to obtain every dac and amp, they have tested many similar components and design as well as similar specs more a like like the G111 or the THX 789 for instance. As well as more expensive amplifiers. Now, subjective unbias testing do exist. For instance, if one unable to make a verifiable claim how things sounds and such especially without data, as every individuals has s different ears, hearing discernment abilities, and individual preferences, so therefore they would based on their own capabilities which can restort to subjective biasness and perceptual difference. And this is where plaecbo effect happens where it work on like a symptoms modulated by the brain, like the perception of pain but in this case perception of sound. Perception and realities are two different aspects. So in order to have subjective unbias testing, without utilizing measurement and science, we set our own parameter and methodology of testing, while conducting a/b switch tester and trial/error approach. If they cannot determine audible difference 9/10 times, which means the outcomes actually determine something. Its not slight difference, its 100% identical if one unable to determine via real proper a/b test with similar dac v.r.ms. Regardles slight difference or not, its still placebo while unable to determine real audible difference. How about if we were to use that statement as part of the double standard, claims like 'people claim all dacs and amps sounds different, you need to spent at certain amount of gear and synergy to have hear the difference, we have hearing problems because we unable to discern audible difference, that itself are dismissive and, quite frankly, insulting. Now, we can further debate regarding on how people hear differenly or at what dcb or hz can we hear, why people make certain claims here and there. But we should use logic to critically discuss and not having to rely on empirical data. Because others has not conduct true a/b test with real methodology of testing and parameters as well. Now, if you want, I could also provide a link on how to conduct the testing as objective as possible approach to minimize error and uncertainties. Another factor could also be psycological biasness as well relating to purchasing more higher tier in result in better objective or subjective performance. Now for dacs, cables, etc. the same, all sounds the same, well most of them. Now we can further discuss about groundloop and interference, and the science behind it. But am not well verse enough and have to discuss with an engineer about it. Headphones colours most of the sound. I have debunked my claimed and elaborate from paragraph to paragraph. If you really want empiracal data and actual factual claims, then discuss on ASR or other science forum. Am sure you yourself unsure, how does amplifier and dacs actually function and works, internally and design wise. Sure, noise, distortion and ouput impedance important factors to consider when deciding which amplifier would suit a specific use case. But here is the issue, how can many people able to hear 0.0001% noise and distortion as well as above 100dcb SINAD measurement value. Its impossible, we are humans and not bats who has supersonic wave hearing. And most amplification design has an output impedance of 1 or 0 ohm meaning the FR and timbre characteristic does not change regardless of which headphone and amplifier used case. Both high or low current or voltage are suitable for all types of impedance and sensitivity of headphone regardless of dynamic or planars. Now, itd debatable regarding 100ohm or 120 ohm how that can change sonic characteristic if using high or low output impedance. " Regarding the G111 and THX 789, "conduct a/b test and be honest." Again, I do not have the G111, and I cannot afford to keep buying gears for me to do a/b. Moreover, I have sold a/b switch tester and my setup are not suitable for it. However in the past, I have done multiple a/b at the same place with strict methodology with several monthly testing with cheap and expensive gears to the point I gave up. Its not false because I have made that claimed as well as debunking statements where objective measurement and specs are all available online as well as ASR but ASR is an independent forum where no companies will gladly sponsor him because of their objective approach to testing. Subjective approach of testing methodology is to hear both of them at the same time at the comfort of your own home, not simultenousely at difference location, time and venue. Measurement rig, cannot register other sonic attributes but there are many scientific forum and studies to prove otherwise. But whether you believe in the science or not, you could at least conduct a/b. But if you still reluctant and not willing to accept reality, that is fine. Most amplifier sounds different. Question for you, have you actually conduct a/b ? You sure confident enough to assert that I simply make a claim, but how about you making claims where amplifiers from different companies should be expected to sound different, if only slightly in some cases. But nonetheless Lake People are the same engineers from Violectric. Numbers games such as noise, distortion, sinad, power output, specs, etc. What constitues "badly designed" ? Again, we can dive deep further in the subject of science and engineering of electronics. But nonetheless, badly designed are such as hissing noise, or electrical noise that should be there, while distortion load at each impedance when driving headphone. "I have so many multiple amplifiers that sounds the same." I'm curious, which ones? Why must I answer ? I actually gave one example on the previous post. Please look up and read the entire paragraph again. Again, what does 'if' actually constitute ? Again, conditional and clauses. Let me iterrate again, if I do not have subtsantiate proof and proper argument to back up, at the end of the I am able to make claim as part of my opinion as well as free speech. Regarding audio forums, do you know my username and reasoning of me getting ban ? Difference of opinion like back and forth right now, are not the main reasoning of me getting ban. Most of all, lack of freedom of speech and expression. Part of the blathering is where I have debunked and elaborate my claims but you do not want to comprehend or accept it. I have substaintiate but you unable to accept the reality. Regardless of my personal experiences, I cannot claim as fact that other people don't hear/perceive audio exactly like me. Good point, but my respond to that is so is others. And so is others who claimed who able to hear the difference but the vast majority listener who outside of audiophile field, would disgaree as well. HUman ears/brains are not measurmeent rigs, that is why we have placebo effects and having proper methodology and parameter of testing are important. By not well verse and technical enough to explain, am referring on engineering level. But even if I have debunked on that, you refusal to accept reality is just mind blogging while at the same time, I actually did explained the fundamentals and use many scientific audio terms. Its better than magical, musical or other garbage subjective mumbo jumbo use to describe dacs and amps. Quoting alot of my statement does not mask your ignorance and unsubstantiated critique especially failure to accept reality. Regarding your advice, isnt hypocritical, because you refusal to comprehend my statement rather than just crticizing, why not try debunking it. Moreover, how is it close or narrow minded when you unable to look at my perspective or even going against objectivist or people who disagree with your subjective opinion. To add further to perspective, its even worst when someone disagree with objective fact, while the other person cannot handle that fact or an opinion, hence report or ban that person. Not enough freedom of speech an expression. Now, of course, measurements and expectations do not tell the full story while I never claimed that, but in fact if one were to conduct real a/b testing, one able to purpote the truth of their own reality if one willing to accept it or not without any subjective biasness. But if many tested higher tier dacs and amps, yet still sounds the same, with more a like similar specs and marketing description, what does that tells you regarding cheaper dacs/amps such as G111 amplifier ? That is the point.

May 31, 2024

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May 31, 2024

nick_tI comprehend very well what you're saying, basically, that a select few measured specifications of an amplifier dictate its sound. In your view, two amps that have similar/same specs should basically 'sound the same' to humans. I wholeheartedly disagree, as there is so much more to sound reproduction and human hearing than what a few measured specifications might suggest. My responses to you were not "defensive" in the slightest. In my logical reasoning and fact-based critique, I demonstrated that you made claims that are 100% unsubstantiated, especially your original one: "This headphone amplifier sounds the same as the THX 789 amplifier, period." The fact is, the Lake People G111 mkII doesn't feature the same tech, nor is it even made by the same company as the THX AAA 789. You haven't even heard the amplifier in question. So what an absurd claim to make! There's no defending it. Yet here you are, spending gobs of time trying to do just that. 'Scientific forums and studies' do not "prove" what I - or others - can or cannot hear. And I never used the terms "magical, musical or other garbage subjective mumbo jumbo use to describe dacs and amps". I spoke of perceived soundstage size, imaging, and details, having directly compared multiple DACs and amps. With well-above-average hearing, my experience is that significant audible differences in audio gear exist. You have a different experience. And that's fine. But don't state your experiences as fact, like 'sounds the same, period.' Any who read this will easily see that I already 'defeated your statement'... that you are incredibly biased in your expectations, having concluded that measurements rule your audio thought processes... that people, generally speaking, are incapable of reliably discerning miniscule differences in audio, likely, only because you and select 'objectivists' cannot do so. My claim that 'amplifiers from different companies should be expected to sound different' is the default expectation... just as a hamburger made at Restaurant A will taste different that one at Restaurant B, each of which sources its ingredients from different suppliers, employs different cooks, and uses varying cooking equipment, etc. The same concept applies to audio components. You admitted that you compared audio components 'to the point you gave up.' That's understandable, as you had reached the limit of your hearing discernment abilities. We all have them. But, person to person, you must understand: these limits are not identical. I'll also throw it out there that, in your stubbornness, you might be subconsciously refusing to acknowledge that you can actually distinguish different pieces of audio gear... that they do sound different, even though they have similar specs. If applicable, this mental quandary is up to you to grapple with. The rest of what you said was obfuscation in a failed attempt to distract from your main point and claim, which was always just an assumption rooted in your short-sightedness in regards to real-world audio experiences, namely, that other listeners cannot hear or perceive differently than you. Regarding the finer points and theories of 'perception and realities' of audio, we would need to take a deep dive into psychoacoustics, which we are not going to do here. My intent was merely to prove that your original claim - regarding a product you haven't even heard, much less, directly compared to another - was 100% unfounded. I succeeded. You're right about one thing, though: I categorically "refuse to comply" with your grandiose, heavily-biased, short-sighted claims and assumptions. Further debate is, indeed, "pointless." In the end, it really you who are "unable to accept the reality", as your perception is one rooted in ignorance and the dismissal of others' experiences, namely, because your personal experiences differ. For the good of the audio community, I suggest you be more careful about what you say and how you say it. Please do not make claims or post opinions about pieces of gear you haven't heard. And even if you have heard the gear in question, just say that you couldn't hear a difference, not 'it sounds the same, period'.

May 31, 2024

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Jun 1, 2024

mattrisNo you dont, because if you do you would not make assertion for each quotation and actually really make comprehensive response about my elaboration and everything. If you want to debate then do debunk. The goal is to enlighten you and explain, not to prove that you are incorrect. But seem you want to go that approach. Anyway whether to debunked or not, I just going to respond to you. And I have no choice but to repeat again, because those circles of statement has been responded or as well as debunked from prior statement. I never asserted that and that is not my main point where I highlight that few measured specifications of an amplifier dictate its sound as well as , two amps that have similar/same specs should basically 'sound the same' to humans. Part of the main point of argument then yes. I simply asserted that, even if I never get to hear that amplifier specifically, but when they provide many mumbo jumbo subjective nonesense which parahrapse and similar phrase to other marketing nonesense as other amplfier normally signifies they sounds similar. Moreover, similar specification and measurement also dictate that otherwise. If I were put the two main point aside, having to be able to hear side by side, with even more expensive amplifiers that are 10 times higher than the G111, that says a lot. There is much more to sound reproduction and human hearing, that statement sound redundant and vague. But sure, good point. But if one were to do a direct a/b test which most never do and simply make a claimed they sound different, thats arragont and delusional. But even lets say hypothetically speaking putting placebo argument aside, they able to hear the difference and has 'magical ears' (being sacarstic), the other side of the proponent of argument can also express truth and reality. And lets say my argument and points are factually incorrect or most people are wrong when they claimed all amps sounds the same, its still fine because at the end of the day, we are allow to provide criticism and expressing freedom of speech and expression. If you have issues about it, resolve it or meet in person even if there are phsyical confrontation. Well it is defensive which is fine. I can even quote each of them but nevermind. I provide substantiated elaboration but you failed to comprehend which is also fine. You cannot simply just quote me where This headphone amplifier sounds the same as the THX 789 amplifier, period." This is because I made bunch of reasoning as well as personal ancedote as well. Not just objective reasoning. And even if am incorrect, its still freedom of speech. Whether its Drop or made in china manufacturing or whether similar companies with same designer, Lake People or even Violectric, its still the same regardless whether it feature the same tech or not, it still sounds the same. I will repeat the same statement again. Even if I never get to hear the G111 amplifier specifically, but having to be able to hear side by side, with even more expensive amplifiers that are 10 times higher than the G111, that says a lot. Especially when you conduct many a/b headphone amplifiers. And the reason why I can make that so call absurd claim because first, its freedom of speech even if I can troll and secondly, I made an objective reasoning and measurement as well as debunking subjective hearing as well, etc, and lastly, again, I conduct multiple a/b with many chain across the board where they mostly sound the same. I have question for you, do you know what makes an amplifier sounds different ? If you cannot answer this question whether its layman or engineering response from designing from ground up, then you clearly do not know what are you talking about. Remember, hearing differently and perceiving differently are two different aspects. Context are important. Scientific forums and studies does proves and for someone who asserted that I simply make a claimed and making rhetoric nonesense and dont based on data which clearly did and explained, making yourself seem redundant and vague when you do not believe in science. In fact, I should even make a quote assesment where, you make an unsubstantiated claimed that you able to hear a difference without any valid reasoning apart from we all hear differently across different chain which I assumes you even include snake oil gears such as cables. Its irrevelant whether you can or cannot hear, when you cannot perform a true a/b multiple test. And lets say even if you can hear the difference, its within anybody prerogative to also claim they unable to hear the difference or make such assesment where all dacs/amp sounds the same similar to many proponents believes all dacs/amps sounds different. Secondly, I never claimed you used terms such as "magical, musical or other garbage subjective mumbo jumbo use to describe dacs and amps" regardless whether you actually seem like implying or not. I was referring to marketing mumbo jumbo as well as the community. This is why you need to read properly and you claimed you able to comprehend because it does not seem like it. Moreover, you have not even respond to most of my statement or even questioning, again which is fine. The reason why am implying as though my experience sounds like a fact, because rely objective assesment as well as scince and studies to based on that although I never really dive into that topic. But lastly, as stated regardless of what you believe is real or delusions, conduct a true a/b test. The reality is that you have not defeat my statement. Those who side with are those are the delusional side, where they have $, part of the audiophile bs community (no offense), subjectivist mumbo jumbo, they believe in cult as well as emotional feelings. Again, which is fine. Objectivist are not bias and only subjectivist. If I were to use that double standard and logic against you, I would also say your are incredibly biased in your expectations, having concluded that subjective hearing without a/b on your audio thought processes that determine whether it sounds different or not or whether it scale where people generally speaking, are capable of reliably discerning mniscule difference in audio such as noise, distortion and sound quality difference. Thats the problem you think I concluded measurements are the determining factor of sound quality. Again, lack of comprehension which is fine. Lets dive deep into food analogy. That is only if amplifiers have different sound signature but the vast majority of the amplifiers are focusing on transparent sound hence all sounds the same. And those people who made a crtique where it sounds different where ASR have tested their gears, also tested the same and measure ruler flat, period! Board design can tell you a lot about the sound. First pcb than transformer than printed circuit than ic than capacitors than mid section translation than dac programing than last output and further last would be design of the heat sink. Printed circuit and printed single wiring. Pcw is the gold or silver ribbon you see on the board. But issue is that most of them use the same component and even if they do not use the same components, some has nothing to do with sound quality. Dac are based mostly on chip and R2R resistors operate different way but am not going to explain the science and engineering because we are not talking about dacs. And no point for someone who do not like to talk and agree about science. Again, for someone who is not into scientific studies and other empiracal data, lets not talk about the science of human hearing and discernment abilities and how different are we. Again, there is a difference between hearing and perceiving hence we have placebo effect on audio when conduction a/b. It has nothing to do with stubborness, any slight perceived of subatomic levels of minuscurity of resolution or dcb level are mostly placebo. And to truely evaluate, we must conduct a/b. Audio gears are all about electronics. And electronics are about design and measurements. And even if you want to reject that statement, then conduct a/b or deduce its overall sound signature. It has nothing do with similar specs or not. Even different specs where they release endless of dacs and amps via better specs does not prove otherwise, they still sound the fucking same. I never make such claimed where other listeners cannot hear or perceive differently than you. You make it as though you implied it that way. If I do, so be it. Or am saying if people claimed they hear the difference without actually conducting a/b. Making excuse of need to spent more money and upgradining chains well as other bs. If you want to support marketing bs, then fine. Again, for someone who reject science and other studies, thats fine so of course, no point we dive deep into psychoacoustics. And by the way, we dont need to have technical explanation and most of the objective reasoning, on a fundamental level has been rejected by you. So to this I say, conduct a/b test. If you make claimed and assertion where I stated no audible difference and everything, its also double standard to claimed others able to hear difference without conducting a/b. And sorry, you did not suceed it, because I provided justification of objective and fundamental reasoning especially related to science. Because even if I do have enough expertise, you will still reject so its you who reject reality. But all kudos to you if you can hear the difference and continue living your own realm of delusions. And if am right about you when it comes to you refusing to comply with my logical, scientical reasoning approach as well as other debunked statement and a/b methodological approach, then enough said. I do not really consider this as a debate. We can only approach and continue the debate if you wake up and try to look at my perspective because you have not once respond to any of my questioning as well as my comments about a/b regarding methodology and parameter of testing. Again, which is fine. Henceforth, its you who are unable to accept reality after debunking everything. If am rooted in ignorance, I would not have respond to each of your statatement and your assertion on my quote with concise and fundamental logic. Its fine to reject science, because at the end of the day, its all about what we want and overall enjoyment of value. I never claimed my personal experience differ so people should not take with a grain of salt kind of implication. You make such assertion about me so please do not twist the narrative. However, at the end of the day, am able to look at your perspective and I was expecting you to debunked my view points as well. We cant really argue with science, cant we. Look, an amplifier can only sound different if it has different sound signature, and the vast majority of gears are transparent. And we cant really measure transparency and its already rule flat with very low numbers and high SINAD. Power is the only difference with most amplifiers. If one can say or imply people unable to hear the difference are ignorant, we could also say the same with people able to hear the difference are as ignorant and delusional with mumbo jumbo facts without a/b conduct. For the good of the audio community, I suggest you have to be more open to perspective while able to express freedom of speech and expression from others even if you disagree with them especially factual reality or even via ad hominiem. Of course, I have to becareful as well because we have so many soft insensitive audio jargon individuals, and by expressing an opinion or telling the truth or even making funny remarks can get you cancelled. Who knows, it could even get others sued and deported to jail. We live in a clown world nowadays where everyone need to be fake. Its not matter whether I couldnt hear a difference, the reality is that it sounds the same with all the methodology and parameter of testing with actual variable along with quantifiable empiral data and science to prove it. And even if it does not sounds the same, along with people hear differently, I still can say otherwise because am a proponent of free speech. Remember, hearing and perceiving are two different aspect.

Jun 1, 2024

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Jun 1, 2024

nick_tI skimmed through your latest response. You have quite a ways to go if your goal is perceiving - or at the very least - fathoming the scope of the "reality" of all this. And I must say, continually falling back the 'freedom of speech' argument is rather pathetic. "... an amplifier can only sound different if it has different sound signature" To that statement, I would ask you define "different sound signature". Remember, soundstage width/depth, imaging accuracy, and detail/transient retrieval cannot be electronically measured with precision, if at all. One final point that I will make is that, in my experience, better DACs can more easily reveal differences in amplifiers. For instance, two DACs may measure similarly - even close to identical - but will sound different due to their primary chips, op-amps, board design, and overall implementation. This is especially noticeable in a direct comparison with a good amplifier and superior headphones. I won't respond in depth because I have no desire to get into the weeds with you. You're obviously dug into the measurements camp, that is, after likely reaching the limit of your own hearing discernment abilities. You've clearly made it your mission to espouse to the world that 'Most audio products sound the same if they measure similarly!' You think you've realized what the audiophile masses have not... that you're one of the relative few enlightened ones. Such delusions of grandeur. I suggest you watch Paul McGowan's (CEO, PS Audio) quick video on Measurements vs listening

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=smv-s1YtDN8

Jun 1, 2024

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Jun 1, 2024

mattrisThats the problem, you are skimming meaning most of your repeated statement can be answered via in depth detail reading. Most of it has been debunked but none of it are responded or commented. Just moving on from one statement to another. I would expect further debunked but you skip most of it. Nonetheless its fine. How is my freedom of speech argument is rather pathetic ? Please elaborate. My point is that even if I provide audiophile jargons or political nonesense, free speech and expression should be protected regardless of how toxic and disagreement of many opinions. Sound signature such as nuetral, bright, warm, mid-forward or even V-shape but most amplifiers sounds nuetral and transparent, in another words linearliy. I have already commented to your repeated statement regarding sonic attributes cannot be measured via measurement rig so enough said. I have also debunked. Dacs are worst. All dacs sounds the same and their main job is to convert from 0 to 1s. Again, their dacchip mostly reveal and deterimine sound signature but again, all linear. Dacs are mostly about vrms and dac ships. And by the way, while I can also debunked the engineering of what makes dacs sounds the way the sound, no point since you wont accept it. I have seen how did you view about empirical data and facts regarding audio science. Even you did not even read my pcb, psw and amps design argument and explanation. Then again, must I get an audio engineer to explain this to you ... There is nothing to respond in depth because its repeating circles after each debunked. I have already made my comment regarding measurements and sound quality. I have also made it clear, am not those typical objectivist where sound quality only determine by measurements. Let me get to the point, because I make claimed where am unable to hear difference via a/b from one amp after another amp, I have my own hearing discernment abilities where my hearing is not as good as you or others ? And people have the galls to accused my methodology of a/b testing rig and the science of placebo are quite dismissive and, quite frankly, insulting. Frankly, I do believe claiming my hearing abilities being bad are rather dismissive and insultig, wouldnt you think so ? Either way, its fine and I do not find it insulting. But am using your logic against you, nonetheless. You are the one who made that conclusion for me implying where most audio products sound the same if they measure similarly though so happen they do. Do not want to believe in facts and science, sure. Then conduct a true a/b test via side by side. Then again, not everybody have enough money to afford all amplifiers and dacs to be able to compare them side by side using a/b switch tester with proper volume matching. Note: its important to use the same dac to test two different amplifier due to voltage regulation and consistent measurement and subjective a/b to avoid bias uncertaintities. The only of grandeur delusions are twisting my statement and phrase here and there, where as though I imply others hearing is bad and only my assertion are correct. Especially for someone who do not want to further debunked but rather critically challenge my quote and statement/arguments. This is my main question for you. What makes headphone amplifiers as well as dacs sounds different when you plug with any headphone ? I know the answer, but I want to see your perspective. Speaker amps are completely different and they will be more sensitive when audio is played. But there is a science behind it but at the moment, I want to know what makes headphone amplifiers as well as dacs sounds different ?

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Jun 1, 2024

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Jun 1, 2024

nick_tI touched on this. The various chips, op-amps, board designs, and overall implementations - as everything works in conjunction - are "what makes headphone amplifiers as well as dacs sounds different". Each unit's power supply system also greatly affects its overall sound. Power/current/voltage output, THD, noise, and channel separation specifications provide the listener a basic idea of how the unit will work in an audio system. But these electronic measurements are only part of the overall picture. The rest can only be realized from real-world listening... which reveals that, for instance, a similarly-spec'd and -priced Burson amplifier and THX AAA amplifier do not sound alike at all.

Jun 1, 2024

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Jun 2, 2024

mattrisOnce again, you did not answer my question nor even respond to corresponding arguments. And am suppose to respond to each of your system ? The answer is incorrect. The most important of the components are op-amps and board design, that is the main components od dertermining sound signature. But the vast majority of the amps are nuetral. I even discuss the imporance of printed single wiring and printed circuit as well. Anyway I shall I answer you, what makes an amplifier sound different is the sound signature which is the overall pcb design. Secondly, its power output which could vary with from headphone to headphone but the vast majority of the amps can output around 2watts per channel which is overkill for most headphones. And since most headphone amplifier can drive hard to drive planar, the difference between expensive amplifier and cheap amplifier diminish. Now, take Susvara, then maybe its a whole other ball game. Anyway next, its output impedance and damping factor but most solid state has output impedance of 0 ohm or 1 ohm where the FR will remain the same, neither bloated bass or lose too much bass. Second statement, correct. But I never claimed that power/current/voltage output, THD, noise, and channel separation determine sound quality but rather engineering quality. But contrary to what you believe, conduct a/b testing. "The rest can only be realized from real-world listening... which reveals that, for instance, a similarly-spec'd and -priced Burson amplifier and THX AAA amplifier do not sound alike at all" But not if one does not conduct a/b and actually have unbias listening via strict consistent parameter and methodology of testing. Because real-world listening is also part of conducting a/b testing, side by side with proper volume matching. For your reference, I have even tested THX 789 and Burson Soloist 3XP as well as the higher range. What I have notice, the Susvara cannot be driven well by the THX 789 while it can be driven well with 3XP. What I realize its the capabilities of controlling the drivers at a lower distortion with power. But with the vast number of headphones, still sounds the same.

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Jun 2, 2024

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Jun 2, 2024

nick_tI answered what you asked. Your question: "I want to know what makes headphone amplifiers as well as dacs sounds different ?" My answer was correct: "The various chips, op-amps, board designs, and overall implementations - as everything works in conjunction - are 'what makes headphone amplifiers as well as dacs sounds different'. Each unit's power supply system also greatly affects its overall sound. Power/current/voltage output, THD, noise, and channel separation specifications provide the listener a basic idea of how the unit will work in an audio system. But these electronic measurements are only part of the overall picture." Yes, the vast majority of the amps measure 'neutral' or flat. You also touched on the importance "power output", as I did. Many audio enthusiasts think that, primarily, frequency response and power output define a component's overall sound. Such people are grossly ignorant. In my answer to your latest question, I also said that the rest of amplifier's or DAC's sound "can only be realized from real-world listening." You responded with yet another demand for strict A/B testing. This is a strawman argument since it doesn't matter if an individual could or could not 'pass a test' to differentiate two DACs or amps. The results of A/B testing do not dictate the absolute sound of any DAC or amp. Therefor, any claim that two products 'sound the same' based on that reasoning is categorically false and unfounded. Period. I will also reiterate that your "corresponding arguments" are merely obfuscation in a failed attempt to distract from your main point and claim, which was always just an assumption rooted in your short-sightedness in regards to real-world audio experiences, namely, that other listeners cannot hear or perceive differently than you... with their ears, their audio gear, and their music. Back to your original claim that started all of this: The Lake People G111 mkII "sounds the same as the THX 789 amplifier, period." The fact is, these two headphone amplifiers do not contain the same chips, op-amps, board designs, and overall implementations. They do not feature the same tech, nor are they even made by the same company. Factually, they cannot 'sound the same'. To make your claim even more ridiculous, you haven't even heard the Lake People amp... much less, within strict A/B testing! There's no defending this. You were 100% wrong to make that claim. All the walls of text in the world will not make it true. Case closed. Or as you're fond of saying, debunked.

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Jun 2, 2024

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