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QKVooDoo
0
Mar 5, 2018
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A noobphile question: Can this be paired with Modi 2 DAC? Right now I am listening to music and playing games from my PC using an e17 dac/amp and an Audioengine N22, will this THX amplifier and Modi 2 a major step up?
Mar 5, 2018
shimage
218
Mar 5, 2018
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It can be paired with pretty much any dac, though I would suggest something other than the modi 2. It's not "bad", exactly, but does measure worse than most (not audibly worse, but still; even something like the SMSL idea will outperform it). If you find you are not concerned about the how the modi 2 measures, might I suggest you save some money and go with a magni 3? It's relatively cheap, sounds great, and will stack better with the modi than Massdrop's amps.
As for the second question, no one can honestly tell you whether it will be a major step up, because even though it measures better than just about every other amp, 1) almost no independent parties have heard it (not that big an issue for dyed-in-the-wool objectivists), and 2) realistically, most amps from mediocre on up should be nearly identical in subjective performance to this one in blind tests, so that 3) it will depend a lot on how you feel about it (some of it unconsciously).
Mar 5, 2018
jaydunndiddit
2712
Mar 5, 2018
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Which Modi are you referring to? As the Modi Multibit is a solid DAC (at $250) for those that don't want to splurge for the Bifrost/Gungnir Multibit DACs. There are numerous tests with the mimby that shows how well it pairs with many amps, especially for the cost.
Mar 5, 2018
shimage
218
Mar 5, 2018
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I should have clarified that I'm speaking mainly about using it with USB. The one that I saw tested was the Modi 2, but presumably they all use a similar/identical design for the USB receiver circuit, so I expect the other versions to perform similarly with USB. There is a reason Schiit is selling "5th gen usb" upgrade boards and Marv insists that USB is terrible, should always be used with a wyrd, and should be avoided if at all possible. However, other brands don't have these problems with USB (even bus-powered ones, so there's no excuse). Multibit is not something that "objectivists" would spend money on. If anything, D-S measures better for significantly less cost. I have not seen any "tests" that show what you say besides ordinary sighted listening impressions (and what objectivist even talks about amp/dac pairings anyway?). Like I said, the modi 2 is not "bad" in the sense that it's audibly worse than anything else, but it does measure worse than most in that price class. I thought we could stick to objective measurements with the THX AAA threads at least, since it's nominally targeted at "objectivists".
Mar 5, 2018
jaydunndiddit
2712
Mar 5, 2018
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"Multibit is not something that "objectivists" would spend money on." That line alone kills me as such a grand statement.
" If anything, D-S measures better for significantly less cost. I have not seen any "tests" that show what you say besides ordinary sighted listening impressions (and what objectivist even talks about amp/dac pairings anyway?). "
Interesting, as there are tests and measurements that would state otherwise: https://www.head-fi.org/threads/modi-mb-technical-measurements.817404/.
And here's with the Modi/Magni Stack: http://www.superbestaudiofriends.org/index.php?threads/measurements-mid-fi-dac-amp-comb-units-grace-schiit-ifi-lh-jds-etc.427/.
And let's not forget the Bifrost MB: https://www.stereophile.com/content/schiit-audio-bifrost-da-processor-measurements.
Again, more about DAC measurements with Schiit MB and other MB hybrids: http://www.superbestaudiofriends.org/index.php?threads/measuring-dac-accuracy.4184/page-2.
Enough "objective measurements" for you?
Also, it would be great and provide measurements for the DS dacs in this price range that perform better. I would love to see them.
Mar 5, 2018
jaydunndiddit
2712
Mar 5, 2018
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Ha, I somehow knew, and was hoping, you would share that link. it's already been discussed and shown that the individual that took those measurements had errors when testing: http://www.superbestaudiofriends.org/index.php?threads/measurements-are-hard.5159/.
But, back to my original point that you seem to have ignored, what delta sigma DACs, in this price point, are going to be any of the Schiit MB offerings? Please, provide measurements so we can keep this 'objective'.
Mar 5, 2018
shimage
218
Mar 5, 2018
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You can complain that he's not doing a good job, but the fact of the matter is that none of the other dacs Amir has measured have issues with his measurement rig. If it's so hard to get clean measurements out of Schiit's dacs, why should I expect to get the kind of performance in my home rig that John Atkinson does? Personally, I don't care what a dac can do on a test bench with a perfect signal, I care about how it performs with dirty power and rubbish usb signal because that's what I'm going to give it. Most dacs can handle that (as evidenced by Amir's other measurements), but Schiit's dacs have problems.
I'm also kind of weirded out AtomicBob's measurement of THD. The signal is at -60dBFS, noise floor is at -125dBFS, and there are clearly harmonic peaks at around -105dBFS. So where does the -91dB for THD come from? He is clearly much more knowledgeable about audio electronics than I am, but I guess the graph is saying something I'm not appreciating. Also, AtomicBob's Bifrost measurement of -70dBFS sine wave looks just like Amir's graph of the same, with the bizarre glitches at zero crossings. He places no significance on them (they aren't audible), but they still shouldn't be there.
Edit: oh hey, that crossover distortion is also there in John Atkinson's measurements of the Yggdrasil (not multibit, obviously, since it's a 24bit signal). I guess it's part of their house sound.
Mar 5, 2018
jaydunndiddit
2712
Mar 5, 2018
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Again, it seems you just want to hate on Schiit gear. Which is fine and your prerogative. However, it doesn't change the fact that for this test, it contained errors in his tools/implementations. Just because it was fine previously (as far as we know) doesn't mean that Schiit gear is "hard to get clean measurements" from.
If you read through the DAC measurement thread I posted (it's only 4 or 5 pages and an educational read) they discuss these 'glitches' and even show similar behavior on some other DACs and how they act when fed a different wave or bits. I even found the 'warm up' time interesting as I normally dismiss that as BS unless it's a tube.
My only point was you made a big deal about this discussion not being 'objective' when you were the one being completely subjective. You made a grand statement, and despite my asking, have still yet been unable to provide the 'objective' proof about delta sigma DACs, in this price point, being superior.
And for what it's worth, I agree with you. I don't care about the measurements that have no impact on what I can perceptibly hear. You complaining about Schiit DACs having this problem is what's misleading. I have provided multiple sources (I can provide even more) that state for the dollar, they are hard to be beat and are a great value. If you're that concerned about USB noise, get a purifier. I'm not saying they're perfect but they surely don't have the problems you're saying they do (for the MB Schiit DACs).
Mar 5, 2018
shimage
218
Mar 5, 2018
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You're right, I don't have the measurements handy. I was trusting posts by known engineers (eg, jcx, gregorio, etc) on head-fi's sound science forum. I assume they have the data since it is their job to know, but I didn't bother asking them for it. And I sometimes get confused when talking about MB vs. D-S, because technically MB is a kind of D-S dac (as opposed to R2R).
Amir's rig is still working fine. It still measures non-Schiit dacs as doing what they're supposed to and Schiit dacs as being especially susceptible to line noise/jitter (he's now measured the modi 2, bimby, and yggy). He just posted measurements of the Topping D50 and Bryston BDA-2, both of which did very well. Comparative measurements look roughly inline with Archimago's for the dragonfly and idea.
But I'm getting off-track here. Let's look at John Atkinson's yggy measurements (I can't get to SBAF at the moment, and I trust Atkinson knows what he's doing). I know it's not MB, but let us just assume for the moment that the yggy measures at least as good as the mimby. Both THD and IMD are -90 to -100dBFS. Noise floor is -130 to -135dBFS. Jitter rejection is disappointing, though not bad by any means. The $250 Topping D50 nominally has THD -106dB across the audible band. In the past, they have backed this up with results from their audio analyzer, so I assume this will continue once it's actually released. In the meantime, Amir has measurements that support this claim. His measurements also show IMD is -99 to -104dB for input signals -10dBFS or louder. Nominal SNR is 122dB, though it looks a bit better in Amir's measurements (comparable to the yggy). Jitter rejection is excellent. Just based off of this, and assuming that the mimby only measures as good as the yggy, I would argue the D50 is probably the better value. The SMSL M8A is probably in the same ballpark for somewhat less coin (Amir has one on order from Massdrop, so I guess we'll see).
As for picking up a purifier, I don't see the point. $50-$100 on a <$250 dac kind of kills the deal, no? Especially when it's so easy to find dacs that don't need them.
Mar 5, 2018
Jimster480
377
Mar 6, 2018
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Their gear is just garbage that measures like garbage and sounds like garbage. Only people in their cult of garbage gear think that its good because they won't really listen to other gear without a major bias. The Yggdrasil is about as good as a $75 chinese DAC lol
Mar 6, 2018
Jimster480
377
Mar 6, 2018
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Get a Topping D30, D50 or even D10 for use with this amp. But considering the amp is $350, to put something in the same ballpark I would use a D50 for the best possible performance. Although if most of your budget is going into this amp, check out one of the other DAC's listed above.
Mar 6, 2018
Jimster480
377
Mar 6, 2018
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Which sources? Sources made by Schiit fanboys? Because there are no actual measurements of Schiit products which are complete, any measurement in which Schiit DAC's fail are always somehow omitted from the measurements posted. To me that sounds like a definitive coverup of poorly measuring products.
Mar 6, 2018
jaydunndiddit
2712
Mar 6, 2018
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It sounds as if you're the one who's completely biased. John Atkinson and Tyll have also reviewed and measured Schiit gear and been nothing but honest. You just seem like you're salty for whatever reason. Personally, I couldn't care less. It's not as if I own any Schiit gear but their MB offerings have been constantly recommended to me (and others).
We get it, you have Topping gear and are their fanboy. Personally, I prefer iFi over most others especially their Pro line, but don't want to spend that much just for a $350 amp. But you don't see me acting like some frothing idiot because I have a random agenda against some other company.
And if you think JA is poorly measuring devices then you're definitely drinking the Kool-Aid. Even the engineer from Schiit spoke up about some of the issues and changes with the Yggy and discussed why thigns were the way they were and why it was implemented as such. I don't understand how it doesn't get more transparent than that.
Seems to me, you need to read more instead of bashing without any objective evidence.
Mar 6, 2018
Jimster480
377
Mar 6, 2018
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Yes you mean the scamartist from schiit came up with a unverifable excuse as to why their garbage product measured like garbage and had completely inexcusable errors that other brands products don't have and you bought it? Interesting cool-aid drinking here....
When the Schiit Yggdrasil was measured it didn't measure well, but some results were omitted vs what was posted for other products. Now that Amir measures the same product, the omitted results happened to be results which really measured poorly.
Its not hard to add 1+1 or 2+2, if you cannot draw the conclusion here then you are lost.
I'm no Topping fanboy, I believe in objective measurements and so far this is just one of the companies making affordable products that are built on an analyzer to perform to their claims.
Schiit products on the other hand are built using obviously nothing at all (and if they are built using an analyzer then they are introducing bugs on purpose to create audible "upgrades" for each of their tiers of devices).
Mar 6, 2018
jaydunndiddit
2712
Mar 6, 2018
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Right, again, Mike Moffat has discussed this and other changes and shortcomings AD-NAUSEUM. The information is easily and readily available. Here, I'll even help and get you started: https://www.head-fi.org/threads/what-a-long-strange-trip-its-been-robert-hunter.784471/page-449#post-14028674 and https://www.head-fi.org/threads/what-a-long-strange-trip-its-been-robert-hunter.784471/page-335#post-13778331. Even more so, discussion to the testing implementation of said readings that were done in 2015 and taken out of context: http://www.superbestaudiofriends.org/index.php?threads/borked-measurements-multibit-schiit-dacs.5786/page-3.
So again, what results were omitted? Where is the proof of this? As stated and discussed above, John Atkinson as well as several others have measurements that are available.
Again, John Atkinson took measurements and they are far from the claim of 'Schiit products measure badly': http://www.superbestaudiofriends.org/index.php?threads/borked-measurements-multibit-schiit-dacs.5786/page-3.
So I ask of you, where is your objective proof for the your claims of Schiit being so bad and ALL of the topping devices you listed? And I'm sure you can find other measurements for Topping gear outside of AudioScienceReview as I sure as hell can't and would love to see them myself. That's why I didn't recommend anything by iFi since I couldn't find all the measurements for their dedicated DACs and didn't want to recommend their dac/amp combos.
Everything you've said thus far is pure conjecture.
Mar 6, 2018
Jimster480
377
Mar 6, 2018
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Topping provides measurements when you buy their gear. I have the measurements in a box. Where are there "many other measurements"? if you mean atomicbob who actually has no idea what he's doing and just posts tons of measurements for devices with no explanation and scales that sometimes make no sense. if you take a look at the yggdrasil measurements by atomicbob his window size is so small that it doesn't actually show any error, but it wouldn't show an error in any dac.... Meaning that it's a pointless measurement.
Linking me nonsense posted by professional liars and scam artists... Doesn't back up their claims as they are directly profiting from deceiving you.
Mar 6, 2018
jaydunndiddit
2712
Mar 6, 2018
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Then will you post said measurements? I'd love to see them and compare them to SAR.
And yet again, I linked to Bob discussing said measurements. So again it seems you're just regurgitating what you read on SAR instead of yourself being objective.
And to call John Atkinson a liar and a scammer is quite the feat. You really do just sound like a hater.
Edit: And I forgot to note, the Yggy measurements for Amirm, Bob, and John Atkinson are all relative close and match. So objectively, if you have a problem with Bob, it's personal and has nothing to do with the actual data.
Mar 6, 2018
Jimster480
377
Mar 6, 2018
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Why is it that Schiit's savior is always AtomicBob? A guy who has no actual known background and just uses scripts to post dumps of measurements on products without any description?
Funny how nobody questioned his measurements until Amir came along and now everyone wants to know Amir's setup and tries to fault his process, never questioning the ghetto way in which AtomicBob has done measurements from the past years? Audio is so subjective that its pathetic, people will defend garbage and discard quality.
I never called John Atkinson a liar and a scammer, I mean Mike Moffat and Jason from Schiit. They have both profited immensely off of their now-exposed scam and anything that they "discuss" is purely an attempt to save their sinking ship of "schiit".
As far as posting the measurements I received with my Topping products... it requires me to find the boxes, scan the papers in the boxes and upload them. I will do it but a CBA to find all the boxes to show the measurements today. Attached is a scan of a row of measurements, provided with the DX7... The dates are from the unit being tested when it passes QC.
search
Mar 6, 2018
Jimster480
377
Mar 6, 2018
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Also for arugments sake here is the A30.... not as fancy dated measurements like the DX7... but this is far more than most any other mfg will provide in a price range of $100.
search
Mar 6, 2018
jaydunndiddit
2712
Mar 6, 2018
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Kudos for providing these, thank you. I actually sent an email to iFi about their iDac so hopefully they'll respond and send their stuff over and I'll post here as well.
I know you seem to have Bob but thing is his measurements for various things have matched others such as Atkinson and Amirm so to call his in particular misleading would be to call all of them misleading which isn't the case. You may not like his commentary, review, or plain ignorance of certain information but his measurements have mirrored others and manufacturers. Again, I don't know the guy or care either way, just being objective and sharing measurements from various sources.
I'm admittedly an iFi fanboy and I couldn't care less what their measurements are. Their gear sounds good, is portable, and scales well with my current IEMs and headphones. The only thing that matters at the end of the day.
Mar 6, 2018
Jimster480
377
Mar 6, 2018
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I wasn't suggesting that Bob has altered the measurements, but some of the windows of his measurements are completely out of spec and make the measurements themselves pointless. But Atomicbob himself tried to discredit Amir but refused to actually come talk to Amir and tried to play off the whole subject trying to cite not wanting to "waste time" but yet having plenty of time to write trash on SBAF. Amir was the one who pointed out that the measurements from other reviewers were similar and that the faults were either purposely ignored or an excuse was made for them (in particular JA's review not including linearity).
Mar 6, 2018
bunkbail
177
Mar 7, 2018
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" Their gear is just garbage that measures like garbage and sounds like garbage. " This is a little far-fetched if you haven't even listened to a yggy. I'm too more of a objectivist than a subjectivist, considering my EE background (I graduated as an EE engineer, but pursue in other field as career). I always follow measurements on ASR I consider them as an entertainment. But having listened to a yggy before, I can safely say that its the most pleasing and best sounding DAC I've ever listened to. I've listened to a lot of DACs before, Audio-gd R2R-11, NFB-11, Aune X1s, Questyle CMA400i, Topping D30, Chord Mojo, Hugo 2, etc., no DAC comes even close to the musicality and detail of the yggy. I'm too cannot fathom how such great sounding DAC measures that bad.
Mar 7, 2018
shimage
218
Mar 7, 2018
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It sounds good because even if a dac "measures like garbage", it's faults are still below audibility. How many headphones have THD <0.1% across the audible spectrum? How many prominent headphone reviewers have gear that can even measure THD that low? The "terrible" yggy measurements are <0.003% THD+N. There's no headphone on earth that can reproduce whatever it is the yggy is doing wrong. Which goes back to my point that psychology is one of the most important factors in sound quality.
Mar 7, 2018
Jimster480
377
Mar 7, 2018
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So you consider yourself a objectivist but you make the most subjective statements? Maybe the "detail and musicality" comes from it actually losing more accuracy vs the D30 you listened to xD
Because it can't even beat the D30... seriously. The CMA400i is from another company with BS specs as they claim specs higher than what the chips they build with are capable of LOL
I would be willing to bet you cannot ABX test your yggy's "Detail and musicality"
Mar 7, 2018
bunkbail
177
Mar 7, 2018
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I made the subjective opinion just to counter your "sounds like garbage" bashing. And no, I didn't own any yggy, I had the pleasure to listen to one in an audio meetup awhile ago alongside the D30 and many other DAC/amps.
Mar 7, 2018
Jimster480
377
Mar 7, 2018
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Listening at a meetup I find is the worst way to really test gear if you aren't experienced in knowing which songs and platform you will test on. Listening to someone elses gear without prior knowledge adds alot of subjective bias.... especially if their gear is expensive of from a "well known brand". When we do listening tests these days, I usually have a meet up at my house and for me I always plug everything into the stack I listen to every day and test using specific songs that I know.
When I said "sounds like garbage" i wasn't referring specifically to the Yggy because I haven't listened to one, I was referring to the Fulla2 and Modi Multibit because those are the two models I have owned and listened to in confidence. I personally thought both sounded horrible and lacked detail before I even had the experience I have today or before any measurements were out.... The Fulla2 sounded worse than my laptops headphone jack lol
Mar 7, 2018
bunkbail
177
Mar 7, 2018
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Fulla 2 was my first DAC/amp purchase, so I know how bad that one is. I've never listened to other Schiit products other than yggy. And it was the best one I've listened yet.
"Listening at a meetup I find is the worst way to really test gear if you aren't experienced in knowing which songs and platform you will test on. "
Nope, I did all my listening tests using my Samsung Galaxy S3 (Lineage OS 14.1) and Spotify Premium. I listened to my fav songs, so I know what I was listening to. Its not like I was going to a Sennheiser Orpheus audition session where they only allow you to listen to their selected tracks, and only for 15 min.
Mar 7, 2018
ulogin1
6
Mar 7, 2018
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Can't agree more re SBAF.
Mar 7, 2018
Jimster480
377
Mar 7, 2018
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Yes I understand what you are saying, but if you typically only listen via your galaxy s3 then thats a different story. Otherwise differences in codecs, headphones, and amps can make a much bigger difference than you think. This is why I try to test just one piece of gear at a time. If I'm testing a DAC, its into the Amps that I know. If its an Amp its from the DAC and transport methods that I know, and if I'm testing a headphone its on my personal stack. Otherwise its just "listening" and not testing because its hard to gauge how different any one piece of gear is. If I listen to your whole setup and "like" how it sounds thats cool, but it doesn't mean that I would go buy your headphones for example because the whole setup works together.
Mar 7, 2018
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